Adding Gay/lesbian spouses as married?

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Adding Gay/lesbian spouses as married?

Bville01

I'm using Gramps 4.0.4-1 for Mac and trying to figure out how to add a
married lesbian couple. It seems to only accept a male father and a female
mother as heads of a family. How do I make a legally married lesbian couple
into a family on GRAMPS?


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Re: Adding Gay/lesbian spouses as married?

paul womack
Wayne W Sica wrote:
>
> I'm using Gramps 4.0.4-1 for Mac and trying to figure out how to add a
> married lesbian couple. It seems to only accept a male father and a female
> mother as heads of a family. How do I make a legally married lesbian couple
> into a family on GRAMPS?

Gramps has no strong opinion on marriage, legal or otherwise.
I have several families where the parents are unmarried.

However, I think Gramps is hard coded to expect
the heads of the families to be different sexes.

Edit;
I'm happy to report I'm wrong...

I just tried; if you use the "select existing person" button on the family
editor, you're given a list of people filtered by gender. :-(

But were you to drag a person from the clipboard, there doesn't appear
to be any checking done :-)

How well the rest of the system (family trees, ancester reports) handle
the resulting data structure I know not.

   BugBear

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Re: Adding Gay/lesbian spouses as married?

Peter G
You can also add the new person as the wrong gender then edit the gender to the correct one.

Peter


From: paul womack <[hidden email]>
To: Wayne W Sica <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2014 7:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] Adding Gay/lesbian spouses as married?

Wayne W Sica wrote:
>
> I'm using Gramps 4.0.4-1 for Mac and trying to figure out how to add a
> married lesbian couple. It seems to only accept a male father and a female
> mother as heads of a family. How do I make a legally married lesbian couple
> into a family on GRAMPS?

Gramps has no strong opinion on marriage, legal or otherwise.
I have several families where the parents are unmarried.

However, I think Gramps is hard coded to expect
the heads of the families to be different sexes.

Edit;
I'm happy to report I'm wrong...

I just tried; if you use the "select existing person" button on the family
editor, you're given a list of people filtered by gender. :-(

But were you to drag a person from the clipboard, there doesn't appear
to be any checking done :-)

How well the rest of the system (family trees, ancester reports) handle
the resulting data structure I know not.

  BugBear




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Re: Adding Gay/lesbian spouses as married?

dangar46
In reply to this post by paul womack
In 4.1 this has been changed ... they are now refered to as partner 1 and partner 2


On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 7:31 AM, paul womack <[hidden email]> wrote:
Wayne W Sica wrote:
>
> I'm using Gramps 4.0.4-1 for Mac and trying to figure out how to add a
> married lesbian couple. It seems to only accept a male father and a female
> mother as heads of a family. How do I make a legally married lesbian couple
> into a family on GRAMPS?

Gramps has no strong opinion on marriage, legal or otherwise.
I have several families where the parents are unmarried.

However, I think Gramps is hard coded to expect
the heads of the families to be different sexes.

Edit;
I'm happy to report I'm wrong...

I just tried; if you use the "select existing person" button on the family
editor, you're given a list of people filtered by gender. :-(

But were you to drag a person from the clipboard, there doesn't appear
to be any checking done :-)

How well the rest of the system (family trees, ancester reports) handle
the resulting data structure I know not.

   BugBear

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Re: Adding Gay/lesbian spouses as married?

paul womack
Dan Garnitz wrote:
> In 4.1 this has been changed ... they are now refered to as partner 1 and partner 2

Very generic I'm sure.

In a subject where terms such "patriarchal line", "matriarchal line",
patronomic etc are an everyday (and latterday) reality, and speaking as someone
with a DB of 1348 Person records (all of whom I research myself)
and 376 relationships represented as Family records, I have exactly
0 same sex relationships, and this new jargon will merely
make the current simple, clear jargon more opaque.

  BugBear


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Re: Adding Gay/lesbian spouses as married?

Gerhard Killesreiter
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Am 26.06.2014 10:03, schrieb paul womack:
> Dan Garnitz wrote:
>> In 4.1 this has been changed ... they are now refered to as
>> partner 1 and partner 2

I think I need to file a request to extend this to partner 3 and up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-parent_baby

I am sure _somebody_ will need it _eventually_.


Cheers,
Gerhard


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Re: Adding Gay/lesbian spouses as married?

paul womack
Gerhard Killesreiter wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Am 26.06.2014 10:03, schrieb paul womack:
>> Dan Garnitz wrote:
>>> In 4.1 this has been changed ... they are now refered to as
>>> partner 1 and partner 2
>
> I think I need to file a request to extend this to partner 3 and up.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-parent_baby
>
> I am sure _somebody_ will need it _eventually_.

Do we now need a long conversation about the limited
options on the Gender drop down?

(currently "female"/"male"/"unknown")

  BugBear


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Re: Adding Gay/lesbian spouses as married?

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by Bville01
An alternative view is that genealogy is about "blood" (i.e., the
transmission of DNA) and so recording same sex marriages makes no sense.

On 06/24/2014 06:19 AM, Wayne W Sica wrote:
> I'm using Gramps 4.0.4-1 for Mac and trying to figure out how to add a
> married lesbian couple. It seems to only accept a male father and a female
> mother as heads of a family. How do I make a legally married lesbian couple
> into a family on GRAMPS?

--
My word, man!  Don't you know your quantum statistics?


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Re: Adding Gay/lesbian spouses as married?

Jesse Meyer
In reply to this post by Gerhard Killesreiter
On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 7:18 AM, Gerhard Killesreiter <[hidden email]> wrote:
I think I need to file a request to extend this to partner 3 and up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-parent_baby

I am sure _somebody_ will need it _eventually_.

​There's also polygamous societies.  I'm far from an expert, but I believe some already consider all the adults to be parents of the children.


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Re: Adding Gay/lesbian spouses as married?

Hans Boldt
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
It's not just about blood. It's about relationships, which of course, take many forms, including adoptive relationships as well as same-sex relationships. More and more jurisdictions are registering same-sex marriages, and so it only makes sense that genealogy software should handle these significant events, regardless of how you currently feel about the issue.

It's also about research, which should be done in as objective a manner as possible. If there are events in your family that you personally disagree with, you need to get past that and record all events and relationships as best you can regardless. 

Cheers! Hans


On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 9:17 AM, Ron Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
An alternative view is that genealogy is about "blood" (i.e., the
transmission of DNA) and so recording same sex marriages makes no sense.

On 06/24/2014 06:19 AM, Wayne W Sica wrote:
> I'm using Gramps 4.0.4-1 for Mac and trying to figure out how to add a
> married lesbian couple. It seems to only accept a male father and a female
> mother as heads of a family. How do I make a legally married lesbian couple
> into a family on GRAMPS?

--
My word, man!  Don't you know your quantum statistics?


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Re: Adding Gay/lesbian spouses as married?

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by Gerhard Killesreiter
On 06/26/2014 09:02 AM, Jesse Meyer wrote:
On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 7:18 AM, Gerhard Killesreiter <[hidden email]> wrote:
I think I need to file a request to extend this to partner 3 and up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-parent_baby

I am sure _somebody_ will need it _eventually_.

​There's also polygamous societies.

Gramps allows polygamy.

  I'm far from an expert, but I believe some already consider all the adults to be parents of the children.

There aren't too many computers in those societies.
-- 
My word, man!  Don't you know your quantum statistics?

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Re: Adding Gay/lesbian spouses as married?

paul womack
In reply to this post by Hans Boldt
Hans Boldt wrote:

> It's also about research, which should be done in as objective a manner as possible. If there are events in your family that you personally disagree with, you need to get past that and record all events and relationships as best you can regardless.

Agreed - which brings us full circle to a female husband (or male wife) in Gramps.

No problem.

  BugBear


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Re: Adding Gay/lesbian spouses as married?

Hans Boldt
No, that IS a problem. There are no such things as a female husband or male wife. In a same-sex relationship, you have two husbands or two wives.

Then again, even in some heterosexual relationships, the preferred term is "partner". (Sometimes in these cases, the relationship is common-law.)

Cheers! Hans


On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 10:23 AM, paul womack <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hans Boldt wrote:

It's also about research, which should be done in as objective a manner as possible. If there are events in your family that you personally disagree with, you need to get past that and record all events and relationships as best you can regardless.

Agreed - which brings us full circle to a female husband (or male wife) in Gramps.

No problem.

 BugBear




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Re: Adding Gay/lesbian spouses as married?

Nick Hall
In reply to this post by paul womack
On 26/06/14 13:39, paul womack wrote:
> Do we now need a long conversation about the limited
> options on the Gender drop down?
>
> (currently "female"/"male"/"unknown")

This has already been discussed.  There is also a feature request:

5730: Make Gramps more functional for LGBT data

https://gramps-project.org/bugs/view.php?id=5730

It was proposed to make gender a GrampsType.


Nick.


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Re: Adding Gay/lesbian spouses as married?

Nick Hall
In reply to this post by paul womack
On 26/06/14 09:03, paul womack wrote:

> Dan Garnitz wrote:
>> >In 4.1 this has been changed ... they are now refered to as partner 1 and partner 2
> Very generic I'm sure.
>
> In a subject where terms such "patriarchal line", "matriarchal line",
> patronomic etc are an everyday (and latterday) reality, and speaking as someone
> with a DB of 1348 Person records (all of whom I research myself)
> and 376 relationships represented as Family records, I have exactly
> 0 same sex relationships, and this new jargon will merely
> make the current simple, clear jargon more opaque.

This is the reason why a Gramps family defaults to a heterosexual
relationship, but this is just a default.

In the family editor, the father and mother can be either sex, but they
default to male and female.  By keeping the father and mother labels for
homosexual relationships we allow the user to specify where each partner
will be displayed in a graphical family tree.

However, we don't want to use this terminology in reports.

3346: Same gender relationship reports

https://gramps-project.org/bugs/view.php?id=3346

Perhaps we should regard this as a bug rather than a feature request?  
The terms "partner", "spouse" and "parent" would probably be more
appropriate.

There is also another related feature request:

3718: Same-sex marriages cause members to be shown as "Father" and "Mother"

https://gramps-project.org/bugs/view.php?id=3718


Nick.


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Re: Adding Gay/lesbian spouses as married?

ACProctor
There seem to be a number of concepts being merged here folks.

If discussing biological lineage then a child can only born to one genertic
father and mother, irrespective of whether they were both present at the
conception, and ignoring the possibility of "gene injection" from a separate
genetic donor.

Separate from lineage is the concept of a family-unit, whether it includes
adoptive/foster parents, guardians, same-sex couples, or something more
exotic.

Separate again is the concept of a bonding ceremony, whether it include same
or dissimilar sexes, or more than two parters.

If you try to merge, or confuse, these concepts then you will ultimately run
into cultural and life-style differences which you will find hard to
represent.

    Tony Proctor

----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Hall" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 8:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] Adding Gay/lesbian spouses as married?


> On 26/06/14 09:03, paul womack wrote:
>> Dan Garnitz wrote:
>>> >In 4.1 this has been changed ... they are now refered to as partner 1
>>> >and partner 2
>> Very generic I'm sure.
>>
>> In a subject where terms such "patriarchal line", "matriarchal line",
>> patronomic etc are an everyday (and latterday) reality, and speaking as
>> someone
>> with a DB of 1348 Person records (all of whom I research myself)
>> and 376 relationships represented as Family records, I have exactly
>> 0 same sex relationships, and this new jargon will merely
>> make the current simple, clear jargon more opaque.
>
> This is the reason why a Gramps family defaults to a heterosexual
> relationship, but this is just a default.
>
> In the family editor, the father and mother can be either sex, but they
> default to male and female.  By keeping the father and mother labels for
> homosexual relationships we allow the user to specify where each partner
> will be displayed in a graphical family tree.
>
> However, we don't want to use this terminology in reports.
>
> 3346: Same gender relationship reports
>
> https://gramps-project.org/bugs/view.php?id=3346
>
> Perhaps we should regard this as a bug rather than a feature request?
> The terms "partner", "spouse" and "parent" would probably be more
> appropriate.
>
> There is also another related feature request:
>
> 3718: Same-sex marriages cause members to be shown as "Father" and
> "Mother"
>
> https://gramps-project.org/bugs/view.php?id=3718
>
>
> Nick.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Turn processes into business applications with Bonita BPM Community
> Edition
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> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
>


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Re: Adding Gay/lesbian spouses as married?

Nick Hall
On 26/06/14 20:09, Tony Proctor wrote:

> There seem to be a number of concepts being merged here folks.
>
> If discussing biological lineage then a child can only born to one
> genertic father and mother, irrespective of whether they were both
> present at the conception, and ignoring the possibility of "gene
> injection" from a separate genetic donor.
>
> Separate from lineage is the concept of a family-unit, whether it
> includes adoptive/foster parents, guardians, same-sex couples, or
> something more exotic.
>
> Separate again is the concept of a bonding ceremony, whether it
> include same or dissimilar sexes, or more than two parters.
>
> If you try to merge, or confuse, these concepts then you will
> ultimately run into cultural and life-style differences which you will
> find hard to represent.

Gramps uses Family objects to record both lineage and family units. A
Family object consists of a father, mother and references to children.  
The family relationship type (FamilyRelType) describes the relationship
between the father and mother.  The bonding ceremony is recorded as an
Event.

Children are linked to a Family by child reference (ChildRef) objects.  
These ChildRef objects contain child reference types (ChildRefType)
which define the relationship between the child and the father and mother.

Gramps Family objects allow us to record same-sex relationships and
adoption/fostering, but are limited to two parents.  This will cause
problems for people trying to record extended families, or three parent
families.

It can also be difficult to tell if a Family recording a biological
relationship is also intended to record a family unit.


Nick.


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