Addresses for places in 4.1.*

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Addresses for places in 4.1.*

Philip Weiss
How can I handle addresses for places in Gramps 4.1+?  I like the new hierarchical system, except there doesn't seem to be a place to include addresses for places.  To explain...

I have a number of places such as buildings, cemeteries, etc, that I enter using an official or colloquial name: Saint Mary's Cemetery, Big Spring Farm, Union Harbor Condominiums.  Sometimes I have an address or approximate street location for the place.

I see the following options:
  1. Add it to the title or name.  (Seems like a bad option.)
  2. Add it to the Code field. (Doesn't seem conceptually correct.)
  3. Add it as an Alternative Name (though it doesn't allow for multi-line addresses)
  4. Add it as an attached Note (and perhaps create a new note type called 'Address').
I'd lean toward option 4, as that allows me to have a couple different kinds of "addresses".  One type for actual street address. One type for descriptive address (e.g., corner of 5th and Madison).  Maybe other types for other kinds of addresses.

Am I missing any options?  How are other people handling this in the 4.1 place system?  What pluses and minuses do you see from how you are handling it?

Phil.

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Re: Addresses for places in 4.1.*

steveflanuk
Philip Weiss wrote
How can I handle addresses for places in Gramps 4.1+?  I like the new
hierarchical system, except there doesn't seem to be a place to include
addresses for places.  To explain...

I have a number of places such as buildings, cemeteries, etc, that I enter
using an official or colloquial name: Saint Mary's Cemetery, Big Spring
Farm, Union Harbor Condominiums.  Sometimes I have an address or
approximate street location for the place.

I see the following options:

   1. Add it to the title or name.  (Seems like a bad option.)
   2. Add it to the Code field. (Doesn't seem conceptually correct.)
   3. Add it as an Alternative Name (though it doesn't allow for multi-line
   addresses)
   4. Add it as an attached Note (and perhaps create a new note type called
   'Address').

I'd lean toward option 4, as that allows me to have a couple different
kinds of "addresses".  One type for actual street address. One type for
descriptive address (e.g., corner of 5th and Madison).  Maybe other types
for other kinds of addresses.

Am I missing any options?  How are other people handling this in the 4.1
place system?  What pluses and minuses do you see from how you are handling
it?

Phil.

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Personally, I create a separate place entry for every part of the address - which, for me, is working well so far.

For example, if I have someone living at No. 1 Some Street, Any City then I create a place for Some Street with Any City as the parent, and then create a place for No. 1 with Some Street as the parent.

If I then have someone else living at No. 12 Some Street, for example, then I add another place for No. 12 with Some Street as the parent.

This helps me determine, more easily, people who were living in the same street, but in different buildings.

For the name, I put the full address so I can differentiate between buildings that have the same name or number but are in a different street.
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Re: Addresses for places in 4.1.*

Philip Weiss
In that case, where do you store the name itself?  For places like cemeteries, the name is super important.  It's usually less important in the cases of city buildings.

Phil.

On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 12:35 PM, steveflanuk <[hidden email]> wrote:


For the name, I put the full address so I can differentiate between
buildings that have the same name or number but are in a different street.


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Re: Addresses for places in 4.1.*

Nick Hall
In reply to this post by Philip Weiss
On 28/10/14 02:19, Philip Weiss wrote:
How can I handle addresses for places in Gramps 4.1+?  I like the new hierarchical system, except there doesn't seem to be a place to include addresses for places.  To explain...

I have a number of places such as buildings, cemeteries, etc, that I enter using an official or colloquial name: Saint Mary's Cemetery, Big Spring Farm, Union Harbor Condominiums.  Sometimes I have an address or approximate street location for the place.

I see the following options:
  1. Add it to the title or name.  (Seems like a bad option.)

Don't add it to an existing name.  Create a new place for it and use the name field.

For example, you could have the following hierarchy:

USA (Country) -> Alabama (State) -> Autauga County (County) -> Prattville (City) -> Saint Mary's Cemetery (Cemetery)

Create "Cemetery" as a custom place type.

Below the level of Town or City you could have Street or Building levels in the hierarchy.  The level of detail is up to you.


  1. Add it to the Code field. (Doesn't seem conceptually correct.)

The code field was intended for things like postal code, country code, codes for administrative districts etc...

  1. Add it as an Alternative Name (though it doesn't allow for multi-line addresses)

The alternative names were provided so that alternative spellings of a place would show up in a search.

It has been suggested that we enhance these to include a date range and language field.

  1. Add it as an attached Note (and perhaps create a new note type called 'Address').
I'd lean toward option 4, as that allows me to have a couple different kinds of "addresses".  One type for actual street address. One type for descriptive address (e.g., corner of 5th and Madison).  Maybe other types for other kinds of addresses.


Yes, you could record extra descriptive information in a note.

Am I missing any options?  How are other people handling this in the 4.1 place system?  What pluses and minuses do you see from how you are handling it?


In future releases, I plan to add an option to automatically generate place titles from the hierarchies of names.  This may influence you in what to store in the hierarchy.


Nick.


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Re: Addresses for places in 4.1.*

Philip Weiss
I think you miss the context.  I have a cemetery/hospital/etc. that has both a name and an address.  if I use the name in the name field, where do I put the address information?

There's no structured place to put the address in the new place objects. In the old place objects, I had the place name as well as a number of fields.  Address when in the "Street Address" field.

Phil.

On Wed, Oct 29, 2014 at 1:03 PM, Nick Hall <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 28/10/14 02:19, Philip Weiss wrote:
How can I handle addresses for places in Gramps 4.1+?  I like the new hierarchical system, except there doesn't seem to be a place to include addresses for places.  To explain...

I have a number of places such as buildings, cemeteries, etc, that I enter using an official or colloquial name: Saint Mary's Cemetery, Big Spring Farm, Union Harbor Condominiums.  Sometimes I have an address or approximate street location for the place.

I see the following options:
  1. Add it to the title or name.  (Seems like a bad option.)

Don't add it to an existing name.  Create a new place for it and use the name field.

For example, you could have the following hierarchy:

USA (Country) -> Alabama (State) -> Autauga County (County) -> Prattville (City) -> Saint Mary's Cemetery (Cemetery)

Create "Cemetery" as a custom place type.

Below the level of Town or City you could have Street or Building levels in the hierarchy.  The level of detail is up to you.


  1. Add it to the Code field. (Doesn't seem conceptually correct.)

The code field was intended for things like postal code, country code, codes for administrative districts etc...

  1. Add it as an Alternative Name (though it doesn't allow for multi-line addresses)

The alternative names were provided so that alternative spellings of a place would show up in a search.

It has been suggested that we enhance these to include a date range and language field.

  1. Add it as an attached Note (and perhaps create a new note type called 'Address').
I'd lean toward option 4, as that allows me to have a couple different kinds of "addresses".  One type for actual street address. One type for descriptive address (e.g., corner of 5th and Madison).  Maybe other types for other kinds of addresses.


Yes, you could record extra descriptive information in a note.

Am I missing any options?  How are other people handling this in the 4.1 place system?  What pluses and minuses do you see from how you are handling it?


 
In future releases, I plan to add an option to automatically generate place titles from the hierarchies of names.  This may influence you in what to store in the hierarchy.

It seems to already do that.  If I type anything in the name field, the title field gets replaced with a combination of the hierarchy and name.

Phil. 

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Re: Addresses for places in 4.1.*

Nick Hall
The address information is now contained within the hierarchy of places.  Can you give an actual example?

Nick.


On 29/10/14 22:30, Philip Weiss wrote:
I think you miss the context.  I have a cemetery/hospital/etc. that has both a name and an address.  if I use the name in the name field, where do I put the address information?

There's no structured place to put the address in the new place objects. In the old place objects, I had the place name as well as a number of fields.  Address when in the "Street Address" field.

Phil.

On Wed, Oct 29, 2014 at 1:03 PM, Nick Hall <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 28/10/14 02:19, Philip Weiss wrote:
How can I handle addresses for places in Gramps 4.1+?  I like the new hierarchical system, except there doesn't seem to be a place to include addresses for places.  To explain...

I have a number of places such as buildings, cemeteries, etc, that I enter using an official or colloquial name: Saint Mary's Cemetery, Big Spring Farm, Union Harbor Condominiums.  Sometimes I have an address or approximate street location for the place.

I see the following options:
  1. Add it to the title or name.  (Seems like a bad option.)

Don't add it to an existing name.  Create a new place for it and use the name field.

For example, you could have the following hierarchy:

USA (Country) -> Alabama (State) -> Autauga County (County) -> Prattville (City) -> Saint Mary's Cemetery (Cemetery)

Create "Cemetery" as a custom place type.

Below the level of Town or City you could have Street or Building levels in the hierarchy.  The level of detail is up to you.


  1. Add it to the Code field. (Doesn't seem conceptually correct.)

The code field was intended for things like postal code, country code, codes for administrative districts etc...

  1. Add it as an Alternative Name (though it doesn't allow for multi-line addresses)

The alternative names were provided so that alternative spellings of a place would show up in a search.

It has been suggested that we enhance these to include a date range and language field.

  1. Add it as an attached Note (and perhaps create a new note type called 'Address').
I'd lean toward option 4, as that allows me to have a couple different kinds of "addresses".  One type for actual street address. One type for descriptive address (e.g., corner of 5th and Madison).  Maybe other types for other kinds of addresses.


Yes, you could record extra descriptive information in a note.

Am I missing any options?  How are other people handling this in the 4.1 place system?  What pluses and minuses do you see from how you are handling it?


 
In future releases, I plan to add an option to automatically generate place titles from the hierarchies of names.  This may influence you in what to store in the hierarchy.

It seems to already do that.  If I type anything in the name field, the title field gets replaced with a combination of the hierarchy and name.

Phil. 


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Re: Addresses for places in 4.1.*

enno
In reply to this post by Philip Weiss
Phil,
> I think you miss the context.  I have a cemetery/hospital/etc. that
> has both a name and an address.  if I use the name in the name field,
> where do I put the address information?
In an enclosing street object.

Enno


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Re: Addresses for places in 4.1.*

Philip Weiss
So I have Evergreen Cemetery at 11111 Aurora Ave N, Seattle, WA 98133.

My hierarchy according to you should be:

US
 -> Washington
   -> King
     -> Seattle
       -> Aurora Ave
         -> 11111 Aurora Ave
           -> Evergreen Cemetery.

Two place objects for the same location: 11111 Aurora Ave and Evergreen Cemetery.

Phil.

On Wed, Oct 29, 2014 at 3:51 PM, Enno Borgsteede <[hidden email]> wrote:
Phil,
> I think you miss the context.  I have a cemetery/hospital/etc. that
> has both a name and an address.  if I use the name in the name field,
> where do I put the address information?
In an enclosing street object.

Enno


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Re: Addresses for places in 4.1.*

enno
Phil,

> So I have Evergreen Cemetery at 11111 Aurora Ave N, Seattle, WA 98133.
>
> My hierarchy according to you should be:
>
> US
>  -> Washington
>    -> King
>      -> Seattle
>        -> Aurora Ave
>          -> 11111 Aurora Ave
>            -> Evergreen Cemetery.
>
> Two place objects for the same location: 11111 Aurora Ave and
> Evergreen Cemetery.
Technically, they're not the same. House numbers may change, and there
may be more than the cemetery at the current number.

Enno


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Re: Addresses for places in 4.1.*

Philip Weiss
Technically, they're not the same. House numbers may change, and there
may be more than the cemetery at the current number.

On the second point, I suppose that's technically true, but in practice I'm rarely (if ever) going to want to differentiate between two places at the same address.  I'm going to have a lot of cases of two objects for the same place.

I have to think about whether that model works for me for your first point.  Conceptually speaking, the same place where an address renumbering or street rename has taken place isn't two different places.  2825 Aurora is the same place as 2825 Highway 99.  In your model, that becomes two places rather than one place with alternate names.  That's not the same way renaming a country from Congo to Zaire and then back to Congo is treated. I do have a few cases where addresses have changed when a location hasn't changed.  When a place moves to another location (e.g., hospital moves to the other side of town, with a new address), I treat that as a new place.  I'm not saying it isn't a workable model, but it treats some places differently than others.

I'm also uncomfortable with using a singular place for a street, as in larger cities I make frequent use of the old "locality" field for neighborhoods, and one street can cross many neighborhoods.  I can't put the street in multiple neighborhoods as a practical matter because the place title gets generated from the hierarchy and will be wrong for every place on the street that isn't in the first listed neighborhood.  I could see one of two ways of resolving that: a place object for every segment of the street within each neighborhood (e.g., there's Aurora Ave in Richmond Beach neighborhood and Aurora Ave in Brier and they are treated as separate place objects).  The other is to drop the street level of the hierarchy and go from city->neighborhood->street address->place.

In any event, there should probably be an examples page on the wiki that goes through possible ways to handle some of these details.  I don't have a wiki account yet, but if that's not hard to get I'm happy to start adding some examples.

So far as I know, no other genealogy software uses the enclosed-by model (which is a shame cause it's awesome), so Gramps is going to get some confused people when they try out 4.1+.

Phil.


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Re: Addresses for places in 4.1.*

enno
Phil,

> I'm also uncomfortable with using a singular place for a street, as in
> larger cities I make frequent use of the old "locality" field for
> neighborhoods, and one street can cross many neighborhoods.  I can't
> put the street in multiple neighborhoods as a practical matter because
> the place title gets generated from the hierarchy and will be wrong
> for every place on the street that isn't in the first listed
> neighborhood.  I could see one of two ways of resolving that: a place
> object for every segment of the street within each neighborhood (e.g.,
> there's Aurora Ave in Richmond Beach neighborhood and Aurora Ave in
> Brier and they are treated as separate place objects).  The other is
> to drop the street level of the hierarchy and go from
> city->neighborhood->street address->place.
Yes, I think it's best to drop street, and use street address instead.
That's what I saw in my job too.

regards,

Enno


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Re: Addresses for places in 4.1.*

Michel Vuijlsteke
In reply to this post by Philip Weiss
Genbox actually used (uses) an hierarchical place model too. 

On 30 October 2014 01:29, Philip Weiss <[hidden email]> wrote:
Technically, they're not the same. House numbers may change, and there
may be more than the cemetery at the current number.

On the second point, I suppose that's technically true, but in practice I'm rarely (if ever) going to want to differentiate between two places at the same address.  I'm going to have a lot of cases of two objects for the same place.

I have to think about whether that model works for me for your first point.  Conceptually speaking, the same place where an address renumbering or street rename has taken place isn't two different places.  2825 Aurora is the same place as 2825 Highway 99.  In your model, that becomes two places rather than one place with alternate names.  That's not the same way renaming a country from Congo to Zaire and then back to Congo is treated. I do have a few cases where addresses have changed when a location hasn't changed.  When a place moves to another location (e.g., hospital moves to the other side of town, with a new address), I treat that as a new place.  I'm not saying it isn't a workable model, but it treats some places differently than others.

I'm also uncomfortable with using a singular place for a street, as in larger cities I make frequent use of the old "locality" field for neighborhoods, and one street can cross many neighborhoods.  I can't put the street in multiple neighborhoods as a practical matter because the place title gets generated from the hierarchy and will be wrong for every place on the street that isn't in the first listed neighborhood.  I could see one of two ways of resolving that: a place object for every segment of the street within each neighborhood (e.g., there's Aurora Ave in Richmond Beach neighborhood and Aurora Ave in Brier and they are treated as separate place objects).  The other is to drop the street level of the hierarchy and go from city->neighborhood->street address->place.

In any event, there should probably be an examples page on the wiki that goes through possible ways to handle some of these details.  I don't have a wiki account yet, but if that's not hard to get I'm happy to start adding some examples.

So far as I know, no other genealogy software uses the enclosed-by model (which is a shame cause it's awesome), so Gramps is going to get some confused people when they try out 4.1+.

Phil.


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Re: Addresses for places in 4.1.*

steveflanuk
In reply to this post by Philip Weiss
Philip Weiss wrote
In that case, where do you store the name itself?  For places like
cemeteries, the name is super important.  It's usually less important in
the cases of city buildings.

Phil.

On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 12:35 PM, steveflanuk <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
>
> For the name, I put the full address so I can differentiate between
> buildings that have the same name or number but are in a different street.
>
>

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Phil

The way I do places in my database is as follows (I've put an example of an actual place I've used in brackets):

1. Input the name of the place in the Name field (Anfield Cemetery)
2. Assign this place to a parent using the Enclosed By tab (Anfield)
3. Once these have been done (and Gramps has automatically filled in the Title field), I then manually change the Title field of the place to give a full address in a similar manner to how I would write it down on a single line
(Anfield Cemetery, Anfield, Liverpool, England)

It may not be the most super-efficient way of doing things, but it works for me.
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Re: Addresses for places in 4.1.*

Tom Hughes
On 03/11/14 15:29, steveflanuk wrote:

> The way I do places in my database is as follows (I've put an example of an
> actual place I've used in brackets):
>
> 1. Input the name of the place in the Name field (Anfield Cemetery)
> 2. Assign this place to a parent using the Enclosed By tab (Anfield)
> 3. Once these have been done (and Gramps has automatically filled in the
> Title field), I then manually change the Title field of the place to give a
> full address in a similar manner to how I would write it down on a single
> line
> (Anfield Cemetery, Anfield, Liverpool, England)
>
> It may not be the most super-efficient way of doing things, but it works for
> me.

That's pretty much my approach as well. Personally I would leave the
"England" and probably the "Anfield" out of the title in that case, but
it varies depending on the place. The key point is the custom title
which is why https://gramps-project.org/bugs/view.php?id=8057 is
important to me ;-)

Tom

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Re: Addresses for places in 4.1.*

Sebastian Schubert
On 03.11.2014 16:41, Tom Hughes wrote:

> On 03/11/14 15:29, steveflanuk wrote:
>
>> The way I do places in my database is as follows (I've put an example of an
>> actual place I've used in brackets):
>>
>> 1. Input the name of the place in the Name field (Anfield Cemetery)
>> 2. Assign this place to a parent using the Enclosed By tab (Anfield)
>> 3. Once these have been done (and Gramps has automatically filled in the
>> Title field), I then manually change the Title field of the place to give a
>> full address in a similar manner to how I would write it down on a single
>> line
>> (Anfield Cemetery, Anfield, Liverpool, England)
>>
>> It may not be the most super-efficient way of doing things, but it works for
>> me.
>
> That's pretty much my approach as well. Personally I would leave the
> "England" and probably the "Anfield" out of the title in that case, but
> it varies depending on the place. The key point is the custom title
> which is why https://gramps-project.org/bugs/view.php?id=8057 is
> important to me ;-)

For me, it is exactly the other way round. I don't like the title field
at all and would like to get rid of it. The title field does not use any
time-dependent information from the hierarchy. I would prefer to have a
date-dependent auto-generated title everywhere to use the full detail of
the data:

https://gramps-project.org/bugs/view.php?id=7942

Sebastian

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Re: Addresses for places in 4.1.*

Nick Hall
On 03/11/14 15:56, Sebastian Schubert wrote:

>> That's pretty much my approach as well. Personally I would leave the
>> >"England" and probably the "Anfield" out of the title in that case, but
>> >it varies depending on the place. The key point is the custom title
>> >which is whyhttps://gramps-project.org/bugs/view.php?id=8057  is
>> >important to me;-)
> For me, it is exactly the other way round. I don't like the title field
> at all and would like to get rid of it. The title field does not use any
> time-dependent information from the hierarchy. I would prefer to have a
> date-dependent auto-generated title everywhere to use the full detail of
> the data:
>
> https://gramps-project.org/bugs/view.php?id=7942

When feature request #7942 is implemented, I think we can just disable
the auto-generation of the place title.

I have almost completed the place displayer functionality.  Is anyone
interested in testing it?

Nick.


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Re: Addresses for places in 4.1.*

Sebastian Schubert
Am 05.11.2014 um 20:05 schrieb Nick Hall:

> On 03/11/14 15:56, Sebastian Schubert wrote:
>>> That's pretty much my approach as well. Personally I would leave the
>>>> "England" and probably the "Anfield" out of the title in that case, but
>>>> it varies depending on the place. The key point is the custom title
>>>> which is whyhttps://gramps-project.org/bugs/view.php?id=8057  is
>>>> important to me;-)
>> For me, it is exactly the other way round. I don't like the title field
>> at all and would like to get rid of it. The title field does not use any
>> time-dependent information from the hierarchy. I would prefer to have a
>> date-dependent auto-generated title everywhere to use the full detail of
>> the data:
>>
>> https://gramps-project.org/bugs/view.php?id=7942
>
> When feature request #7942 is implemented, I think we can just disable
> the auto-generation of the place title.
>
> I have almost completed the place displayer functionality.  Is anyone
> interested in testing it?

I would be happy to give it a try. I can apply patches or checkout branches.

Cheers
Sebastian


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Re: Addresses for places in 4.1.*

Philip Weiss

> >
> > I have almost completed the place displayer functionality.  Is anyone
> > interested in testing it?
>

I can test as well. Currently running off the git 4.1 maintenance branch.

Phil


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Re: Addresses for places in 4.1.*

Nick Hall
On 05/11/14 20:26, Philip Weiss wrote:
>
> I can test as well. Currently running off the git 4.1 maintenance branch.
>

Philip, Sebastian,

Thanks for your offers.  I'll create a branch for testing tomorrow.

Nick.


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