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Any suggestions for other (custom) travel related events.

John W. Kitz-3
All,

Currently the travel events Gramps is 'shipped' with are immigration,
emigration and naturalization, which pertain to travel events that typically
are more or less permanent in nature.

In lieu of out-off-the-box events related to travel that is temporary in
nature I've added 'Departure' and 'Arrival'.

I recently came across an individual, German by birth, to whom a 'temporary
residence and travel pass or permit' was issued a number of times by the
Dutch authorities in the mid-1800's prior to his departure from The
Netherlands travelling to France and from there onward to the US by boat.

Any thoughts or suggestions anyone?

Regards, Jk.


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Re: Any suggestions for other (custom) travel related events.

Doug-11
On 25/04/17 09:41, John W. Kitz wrote:

> All,
>
> Currently the travel events Gramps is 'shipped' with are immigration,
> emigration and naturalization, which pertain to travel events that typically
> are more or less permanent in nature.
>
> In lieu of out-off-the-box events related to travel that is temporary in
> nature I've added 'Departure' and 'Arrival'.
>
> I recently came across an individual, German by birth, to whom a 'temporary
> residence and travel pass or permit' was issued a number of times by the
> Dutch authorities in the mid-1800's prior to his departure from The
> Netherlands travelling to France and from there onward to the US by boat.
>
> Any thoughts or suggestions anyone?
>
> Regards, Jk.
>
A couple of suggestions:
(1) Create a new event "temporary residence". The dates of
the events should distinguish them from one another.
(2) If you want further information included, make use of
the Event Description field.

To record a ship's doctor's travels, I created events
"departure", "arrival", "port of call".  People sharing the
event were the doctor himself in the Primary Role and the
ship's captain in the role of "captain".
I used the Event Description field to record the ship's name
- this shows up nicely in the Events list.

Doug

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Re: Any suggestions for other (custom) travel related events.

John W. Kitz-3
Doug (and all),

On 2017-04-25 12:16, Doug wrote:

>> I recently came across an individual, German by birth, to whom a
>> 'temporary
>> residence and travel pass or permit' was issued a number of times by
>> the
>> Dutch authorities in the mid-1800's prior to his departure from The
>> Netherlands traveling to France and from there onward to the US by
>> boat.
>>
>> Any thoughts or suggestions anyone?
>>
>> Regards, Jk.

> A couple of suggestions:
> (1) Create a new event "temporary residence". The dates of the events
> should distinguish them from one another.
> (2) If you want further information included, make use of the Event
> Description field.

On the one hand I appreciate you taking the time to reply with a
suggestion as well as an example of how you have dealt with a similar
situation, on the other hand I don't think 'temporary residence' is
typically considered an event, like e.g. a marriage, birth, arrival,
departure, etc. are, and I prefer to stay as close as possible to the
meaning of the word 'event' when creating custom events.

At the same time I couldn't think of a way to address this example while
staying as true as possible to the meaning of the word 'event', which
was also the reason why I'm asking other users, who may already have
addressed similar situations for their experience.

> To record a ship's doctor's travels, I created events "departure",
> "arrival", "port of call".  People sharing the event were the doctor
> himself in the Primary Role and the ship's captain in the role of
> "captain".
> I used the Event Description field to record the ship's name - this
> shows up nicely in the Events list.

I haven't used more than one role for any one individual in my data yet,
since to date I've mostly been working on gathering the data. I wasn't
aware of the possibility to use the role option as explained by you. So
thanks for sharing, it may come in handy at some later point in time.

>
> Doug

Regards, Jk.

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Re: Any suggestions for other (custom) travel related events.

Dave Scheipers
Any residence is always temporary. From ...To...  and then the person will have other residences until they take up residence in the family cemetery plot.

While I have many custom event types, I've never considered one for temporary residence.

Dave

On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 5:13 AM, John W. Kitz <[hidden email]> wrote:
Doug (and all),

On 2017-04-25 12:16, Doug wrote:
>> I recently came across an individual, German by birth, to whom a
>> 'temporary
>> residence and travel pass or permit' was issued a number of times by
>> the
>> Dutch authorities in the mid-1800's prior to his departure from The
>> Netherlands traveling to France and from there onward to the US by
>> boat.
>>
>> Any thoughts or suggestions anyone?
>>
>> Regards, Jk.

> A couple of suggestions:
> (1) Create a new event "temporary residence". The dates of the events
> should distinguish them from one another.
> (2) If you want further information included, make use of the Event
> Description field.

On the one hand I appreciate you taking the time to reply with a
suggestion as well as an example of how you have dealt with a similar
situation, on the other hand I don't think 'temporary residence' is
typically considered an event, like e.g. a marriage, birth, arrival,
departure, etc. are, and I prefer to stay as close as possible to the
meaning of the word 'event' when creating custom events.

At the same time I couldn't think of a way to address this example while
staying as true as possible to the meaning of the word 'event', which
was also the reason why I'm asking other users, who may already have
addressed similar situations for their experience.

> To record a ship's doctor's travels, I created events "departure",
> "arrival", "port of call".  People sharing the event were the doctor
> himself in the Primary Role and the ship's captain in the role of
> "captain".
> I used the Event Description field to record the ship's name - this
> shows up nicely in the Events list.

I haven't used more than one role for any one individual in my data yet,
since to date I've mostly been working on gathering the data. I wasn't
aware of the possibility to use the role option as explained by you. So
thanks for sharing, it may come in handy at some later point in time.

>
> Doug

Regards, Jk.

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Re: Any suggestions for other (custom) travel related events.

Doug-11
On 26/04/17 12:57, Dave Scheipers wrote:
Any residence is always temporary. From ...To...  and then the person will have other residences until they take up residence in the family cemetery plot.

While I have many custom event types, I've never considered one for temporary residence.

Dave
<snip>
A possibly related question: how would one deal with a 'transit', supposing it was important to you to record that a person passed through a certain place (rather than some other) at a certain date? Particular examples might be the routes of trains taking relatives to the extermination camps in WWII.

Doug

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Re: Any suggestions for other (custom) travel related events.

Dave Scheipers
I suppose I would use a combination of Embarked and Disembarked. If the route of the train is known, maybe use Transit to denote the route. If the train stopped along the way, the Disembark and Embarked would work to document their movement. How long they stayed at an interim location may justify creating a From... to... Internment event. If you have any documentation from these interim prisons, I would definitely create that Interment event record even if it were only for a day or two..

An analogous but nowhere close to the circumstance would be military service where there is are enlistment and discharge/KIA dates and within those dates are the known duty stations and deployments. In the scenario you suggest, there would be the initial Internment and their death or more hopefully their release with their known movements and imprisonment locations within those dates.

For myself, I'm thankful that my relatives all left Europe before 1900 and for many before 1700 and I have not researched any family that remained in Germany and found out what they did in the wars. I do have a relative that married a Japanese American and was 'relocated' to a camp in Idaho from Oregon. But so far, all I found are the rough dates (1942-1946), where they entered upon their 'relocation' and the camp they were sent to. Oh what we do to other people.

I hope this heled... a very somber, Dave

On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 12:41 PM, Doug <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 26/04/17 12:57, Dave Scheipers wrote:
Any residence is always temporary. From ...To...  and then the person will have other residences until they take up residence in the family cemetery plot.

While I have many custom event types, I've never considered one for temporary residence.

Dave
<snip>
A possibly related question: how would one deal with a 'transit', supposing it was important to you to record that a person passed through a certain place (rather than some other) at a certain date? Particular examples might be the routes of trains taking relatives to the extermination camps in WWII.

Doug


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Re: Any suggestions for other (custom) travel related events.

John W. Kitz-3
In reply to this post by John W. Kitz-3
Doug (and all),

On 2017-04-26 13:42, Douglas Bainbridge wrote:
>> On the one hand I appreciate you taking the time to reply with a
>> suggestion as well as an example of how you have dealt with a similar
>> situation, on the other hand I don't think 'temporary residence' is
>> typically considered an event, like e.g. a marriage, birth, arrival,
>> departure, etc. are, and I prefer to stay as close as possible to the
>> meaning of the word 'event' when creating custom events.

Ideally I would prefer to use as few custom events as possibly in my
data since I think that greatly improves the usefulness of any
collection of data, the data resulting from the work all users of Gramps
are doing included. In addition I think common terminology helps helping
one another on lists like these.

Third, for the time being I've used the out-off-the-box Residence event,
until such time that I can think of a solution that IMHO better suits
the temporary nature of the events that I found records of, which lead
me to raise the question. Lastly I realize that many will think that I'm
splitting hairs with this.

>> At the same time I couldn't think of a way to address this example
>> while
>> staying as true as possible to the meaning of the word 'event', which
>> was also the reason why I'm asking other users, who may already have
>> addressed similar situations for their experience.
>>
> <snip>
>
> Fair enough. It raises a similar question - how would one deal with a
> "transit"?
> Say it was important to you to record that a person passed through
> some particular place (rather than another), stopping briefly.
> A 'transit' event?
> What do you think?
>
> Doug

Such as in transiting the equator or a port aboard ship rather than
disembarking there for an extended period of time?

I guess transition or passing, where the latter might be less
appropriate since it is also used to more euphemistically refer to death
or dying.

At this time I have at least two other events that both are related to
the out-off-the-box event 'Military Service' and for which I haven't
decided yet what the most appropriate custom event would be.

They are the events related to the verbs 'to enlist' and 'to enroll',
which (assuming I as a non-native speaker use the proper English terms)
are enlistment and enrollment. Where enrollment, which today is more
widely used, AFAIK at least in Dutch used to be used to refer to the
event of navy personnel being assigned to another vessel at which point
their name would be 'transferred' to the roll (or crew list) of the
other ship, seen as "over in de rol[le] van" (in English "over in the
roll of") followed by the name of the ship in Dutch records dating from
the early 1800's. Also consider the term roll call.

Sure enough there are others that I'm not aware of at this point in
time.

Regards, Jk.

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Re: Any suggestions for other (custom) travel related events.

John W. Kitz-3
In reply to this post by Dave Scheipers
Dave,

On 2017-04-26 13:57, Dave Scheipers wrote:
> Any residence is always temporary. From ...To...  and then the person
> will have other residences until they take up residence in the family
> cemetery plot.
>
> While I have many custom event types, I've never considered one for
> temporary residence.
>
> Dave

Using the out-off-the-box Residence event AFAIK does not provide the
option to enter start and end dates, see the Residence section of a CIR
in which I used the Residence event to record a number of events related
to issuing and extending a temporary residence and travel pass in the
mid 1800's:

"(...)
Residence
Residence     1849-10-04 in Amsterdam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands. <-
1st issued
Residence     1850-01-08 in Amsterdam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands. <-
1st extension
Residence     1850-04-08 in Amsterdam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands. <-
2nd extension
Residence     1850-07-08 in Amsterdam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands. <-
3rd extension
Residence     1850-10-10 in Amsterdam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands. <-
4th extension

...and so on until the Custom section in he CIR lists

Custom
Departure     for Paris, 1852-01-13 in Amsterdam, Noord-Holland,
Netherlands.
(...)"

Regards, Jk.

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Re: Any suggestions for other (custom) travel related events.

Dave Scheipers
The Event is not one of residence. The event is the issuing of a document. A document that proves residence so you may wish to use it as a citation to the residence. 

Ancestry.com has WWII US Navy roster records online. I suppose I could have created an event to reflect the creation of the roster for the relative. But the event is Military Service, description Aboard USS ..., with citations of each of the ship's roster that I have been able to locate.

There are some US Passport applications on ancestry. I debated with myself how to handle them. I settled on creating a citation to the person. Is it an event?... yes., but then how to do that and what it would tell me about my relative.

The same for voter registrations. Events, yes. But I use them as citations.

This is just my thoughts and practices. But before I create an event I need to understand just what the event is and whether or not it warrants the creation of a custom event.

Dave


On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 5:18 PM, John W. Kitz <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dave,

On 2017-04-26 13:57, Dave Scheipers wrote:
Any residence is always temporary. From ...To...  and then the person
will have other residences until they take up residence in the family
cemetery plot.

While I have many custom event types, I've never considered one for
temporary residence.

Dave

Using the out-off-the-box Residence event AFAIK does not provide the option to enter start and end dates, see the Residence section of a CIR in which I used the Residence event to record a number of events related to issuing and extending a temporary residence and travel pass in the mid 1800's:

"(...)
Residence
Residence     1849-10-04 in Amsterdam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands. <- 1st issued
Residence     1850-01-08 in Amsterdam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands. <- 1st extension
Residence     1850-04-08 in Amsterdam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands. <- 2nd extension
Residence     1850-07-08 in Amsterdam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands. <- 3rd extension
Residence     1850-10-10 in Amsterdam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands. <- 4th extension

...and so on until the Custom section in he CIR lists

Custom
Departure     for Paris, 1852-01-13 in Amsterdam, Noord-Holland, Netherlands.
(...)"

Regards, Jk.


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Re: Any suggestions for other (custom) travel related events.

John W. Kitz-3
Dave,

On 2017-04-27 00:10, Dave Scheipers wrote:
> The Event is not one of residence.

Exactly my point and the reason I've been pondering how to deal with
these records in Gramps.

> The event is the issuing of a
> document. A document that proves residence so you may wish to use it
> as a citation to the residence.

The reason why I think it may be useful to include these particular ones
is that they provide a paper trail of sorts of the migration of
individuals throughout what is no called Europe and beyond, in this case
from what are now called Germany to The Netherlands, onto France, then
to the US and who knows whereto from there.

> Ancestry.com has WWII US Navy roster records online. I suppose I could
> have created an event to reflect the creation of the roster for the
> relative.

I don't known, I guess that would depend on what the information on
those rosters represents. If it in some way, shape or form represents
location in time it might be useful depending on the goals you've set.
If the goal is to find out who one's forefathers have been it might be
of lesser importance. However if you've also decided to figure out what
they've  been up to during the course of their lives and were they've
been IMHO it is quite likely to be useful recording such records in
Gramps.

> But the event is Military Service, description Aboard USS
> ..., with citations of each of the ship's roster that I have been able
> to locate.
>
> There are some US Passport applications on ancestry. I debated with
> myself how to handle them. I settled on creating a citation to the
> person. Is it an event?... yes., but then how to do that and what it
> would tell me about my relative

See above.

> The same for voter registrations. Events, yes. But I use them as
> citations.

See above.

> This is just my thoughts and practices. But before I create an event I
> need to understand just what the event is and whether or not it
> warrants the creation of a custom event.

Again exactly my point, if not before I known it my Gramps installation
might be full of Custom Events which might be difficult if not
impossible to get rid of in case they're no longer needed.

> Dave

This exchange of idea's and practices is appreciated.

Regards, Jk.

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Re: Any suggestions for other (custom) travel related events.

Dave Scheipers
I know the info of the Resident Permits would be important but instead of showing the event every three months, I'd have them show as citations as the proof of the larger residence from... to.. range.

An FYI: You can get rid of custom events, etc. Once something custom is no longer used, if you export to a backup and then import into a new empty database, they will no longer show up. I do this every few months

Dave

On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 5:30 AM, John W. Kitz <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dave,

On 2017-04-27 00:10, Dave Scheipers wrote:
The Event is not one of residence.

Exactly my point and the reason I've been pondering how to deal with these records in Gramps.

The event is the issuing of a
document. A document that proves residence so you may wish to use it
as a citation to the residence.

The reason why I think it may be useful to include these particular ones is that they provide a paper trail of sorts of the migration of individuals throughout what is no called Europe and beyond, in this case from what are now called Germany to The Netherlands, onto France, then to the US and who knows whereto from there.

Ancestry.com has WWII US Navy roster records online. I suppose I could
have created an event to reflect the creation of the roster for the
relative.

I don't known, I guess that would depend on what the information on those rosters represents. If it in some way, shape or form represents location in time it might be useful depending on the goals you've set. If the goal is to find out who one's forefathers have been it might be of lesser importance. However if you've also decided to figure out what they've  been up to during the course of their lives and were they've been IMHO it is quite likely to be useful recording such records in Gramps.

But the event is Military Service, description Aboard USS
..., with citations of each of the ship's roster that I have been able
to locate.

There are some US Passport applications on ancestry. I debated with
myself how to handle them. I settled on creating a citation to the
person. Is it an event?... yes., but then how to do that and what it
would tell me about my relative

See above.

The same for voter registrations. Events, yes. But I use them as
citations.

See above.

This is just my thoughts and practices. But before I create an event I
need to understand just what the event is and whether or not it
warrants the creation of a custom event.

Again exactly my point, if not before I known it my Gramps installation might be full of Custom Events which might be difficult if not impossible to get rid of in case they're no longer needed.

Dave

This exchange of idea's and practices is appreciated.

Regards, Jk.


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Re: Any suggestions for other (custom) travel related events.

John W. Kitz-3
Dave,

On 2017-04-27 15:01, Dave Scheipers wrote:
> I know the info of the Resident Permits would be important but instead
> of showing the event every three months, I'd have them show as
> citations as the proof of the larger residence from... to.. range.
>
> An FYI: You can get rid of custom events, etc. Once something custom
> is no longer used, if you export to a backup and then import into a
> new empty database, they will no longer show up. I do this every few
> months

I'd have to look it up, now that you mention it I believe it was pointed
out to me before that it is possible to get rid of unused custom events.
I guess my memory underwent too many refresh cycles : )

Anyway, thanks for letting me know (again).

For the remainder I guess I'll be doing some more pondering how to
address those 'other' events.

In the meantime enjoy your weekend, regards, Jk.

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