Baptism vs Christening

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Baptism vs Christening

Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi
Howdy,

I failed to understand the difference between Baptism, Christening and
Adult Christening, Does anyone explain the differences in simple words?

P.S. I read many pages about them but they increased the fuzziness of the meaning instead of clarifying it. I found Diffen is most summarized reference but it doesn't clear enough because it's mixing between
Adult Christening & Christening (it says: "but for others the word "christening" is reserved for the baptism of infants.")!!!

-- 
Best Regards,
Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi

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Re: Baptism vs Christening

diannereuby
In the Christian church, Baptism is the original term for accepting the
Christian faith. The term "Christening" was used by the general
population and has eventually become the accepted term. It covers both
infant and adult Baptism. Many Christian denominations and groups still
practice only adult baptism, others practice mainly infant baptism.

Hope this helps!

Dianne

On Tue, 2013-06-18 at 07:53 +0200, Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi wrote:

> Howdy,
>
> I failed to understand the difference between Baptism, Christening and
> Adult Christening, Does anyone explain the differences in simple
> words?
>
> P.S. I read many pages about them but they increased the fuzziness of
> the meaning instead of clarifying it. I found Diffen is most
> summarized reference but it doesn't clear enough because it's mixing
> between Adult Christening & Christening (it says: "but for others the
> word "christening" is reserved for the baptism of infants.")!!!
>
> --
> Best Regards,
> Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by Windows:
>
> Build for Windows Store.
>
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Re: Baptism vs Christening

Benny Malengier
Note that apart from the christian typical events, also Jewish events are present in the event list.
If there are specific Islam events (with certificates, so things like baptize which you have Church documents since 16th century), we can add them too to the default list. You should only pass the English term with perhaps the wikipedia page for our documentation, and version 4.1 of Gramps can have those.

Benny


2013/6/18 Dianne Reuby <[hidden email]>
In the Christian church, Baptism is the original term for accepting the
Christian faith. The term "Christening" was used by the general
population and has eventually become the accepted term. It covers both
infant and adult Baptism. Many Christian denominations and groups still
practice only adult baptism, others practice mainly infant baptism.

Hope this helps!

Dianne

On Tue, 2013-06-18 at 07:53 +0200, Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi wrote:
> Howdy,
>
> I failed to understand the difference between Baptism, Christening and
> Adult Christening, Does anyone explain the differences in simple
> words?
>
> P.S. I read many pages about them but they increased the fuzziness of
> the meaning instead of clarifying it. I found Diffen is most
> summarized reference but it doesn't clear enough because it's mixing
> between Adult Christening & Christening (it says: "but for others the
> word "christening" is reserved for the baptism of infants.")!!!
>
> --
> Best Regards,
> Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by Windows:
>
> Build for Windows Store.
>
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/windows-dev2dev
> _______________________________________________ Gramps-users mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users


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Re: Baptism vs Christening

Ken B.
In reply to this post by Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi

On 18/06/13 17:53, Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi wrote:
Howdy,

I failed to understand the difference between Baptism, Christening and
Adult Christening, Does anyone explain the differences in simple words?

P.S. I read many pages about them but they increased the fuzziness of the meaning instead of clarifying it. I found Diffen is most summarized reference but it doesn't clear enough because it's mixing between
Adult Christening & Christening (it says: "but for others the word "christening" is reserved for the baptism of infants.")!!!

Hi Muhammad,

Baptism and Methodists are basically the same.  Adult Christening is generally found in the LDS, although occasionally in some other churches.
Just to confuse things in this country Baptism is found in the Catholic, Methodists etc churches and Christening in the Presbyterian church.
-- 
Best Regards,
Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi


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Re: Baptism vs Christening

Gerald Britton-2
Baptism and Methodists are most emphatically *not* the same thing.  Baptism is a practice whereby a Christian is immersed (either literally or symbolically) in water as a public signification of their faith.  OTOH, Methodists are members of or adherents to the Methodist Church which is a Protestant denomination that follows the teachings of John and Charles Wesley and others.  Baptism is practised by Methodists and many other denominations (including Baptists who would be shocked to be called Methodists, even though they share many of the same beliefs).

Christening is fundamentally the giving of a name.  It can be to a baby or a ship to name two common examples.  In the Christian Church, it is often associated with infant baptism.  However, there are some denominations do not practice infant baptism that *do* christen infants.  Sometimes the ceremony is simply called a Baby Dedication.


On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 8:05 AM, Ken B. <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 18/06/13 17:53, Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi wrote:
Howdy,

I failed to understand the difference between Baptism, Christening and
Adult Christening, Does anyone explain the differences in simple words?

P.S. I read many pages about them but they increased the fuzziness of the meaning instead of clarifying it. I found Diffen is most summarized reference but it doesn't clear enough because it's mixing between
Adult Christening & Christening (it says: "but for others the word "christening" is reserved for the baptism of infants.")!!!

Hi Muhammad,

Baptism and Methodists are basically the same.  Adult Christening is generally found in the LDS, although occasionally in some other churches.
Just to confuse things in this country Baptism is found in the Catholic, Methodists etc churches and Christening in the Presbyterian church.
-- 
Best Regards,
Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi


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Re: Baptism vs Christening

Tim Lyons
Administrator
In reply to this post by Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi
Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi wrote
      I failed to understand the difference between Baptism, Christening
      and Adult Christening, Does anyone
      explain the differences in simple words?
Wikipedia is quite good for some of these.

I think the answer to this question, as for some of your other questions, is that it doesn't really matter what the words mean, what is important is what was recorded in the original source. So if it was called Baptism or Dedication or Naming, then that is what needs to be written.

I think that for terms that have cultural differences like this, you probably need to give the original term as well. So, if you decide that the word for Baptism is "XYZZY", then I think the translation should be "XYZZY (Baptism)". It is not unusual to see the original term in bracket like this in articles or the media. Then if you decide to use the same translation for more than one original term, they are distinguished in this way.

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Re: Baptism vs Christening

Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi
In reply to this post by Benny Malengier
On 06/18/2013 11:15 AM, Benny Malengier wrote:
Note that apart from the christian typical events, also Jewish events are present in the event list.
If there are specific Islam events (with certificates, so things like baptize which you have Church documents since 16th century), we can add them too to the default list. You should only pass the English term with perhaps the wikipedia page for our documentation, and version 4.1 of Gramps can have those.
Actually I planned to request some events and features specifically for Islam but after finishing from Arabic translation because I'm still learning many things about Gramps.

-- 
Best Regards,
Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi

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Re: Baptism vs Christening

Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi
In reply to this post by Tim Lyons
On 06/18/2013 04:29 PM, Tim Lyons wrote:
I think the answer to this question, as for some of your other questions, is
that it doesn't really matter what the words mean, what is important is what
was recorded in the original source. So if it was called Baptism or
Dedication or Naming, then that is what needs to be written.
I don't agree with you here. I've to be accurate because in Arab countries there are many Muslims and Christians use Gramps so I've to translate the exact mean of the words for making Gramps useful for all users not for specific religion.

-- 
Best Regards,
Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi

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Re: Baptism vs Christening

Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi
In reply to this post by diannereuby
On 06/18/2013 10:47 AM, Dianne Reuby wrote:
In the Christian church, Baptism is the original term for accepting the
Christian faith. The term "Christening" was used by the general
population and has eventually become the accepted term. It covers both
infant and adult Baptism. Many Christian denominations and groups still
practice only adult baptism, others practice mainly infant baptism.
Thanks Dianne, I found your reply is most clear one, but I'm still need a tiny conformation from you.

Can I say "Christening" is the term called on people (or babies) who converted to Christianity (is infant or came from another religion)?

-- 
Best Regards,
Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi

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Re: Baptism vs Christening

Gerald Britton-2
Dianne is not technically correct.  Baptism is an act (immersion in water) signifying the accepting of the Christian faith.  It may happen close to that acceptance or be separated by weeks, months, even years.  


On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 4:14 PM, Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 06/18/2013 10:47 AM, Dianne Reuby wrote:
In the Christian church, Baptism is the original term for accepting the
Christian faith. The term "Christening" was used by the general
population and has eventually become the accepted term. It covers both
infant and adult Baptism. Many Christian denominations and groups still
practice only adult baptism, others practice mainly infant baptism.
Thanks Dianne, I found your reply is most clear one, but I'm still need a tiny conformation from you.

Can I say "Christening" is the term called on people (or babies) who converted to Christianity (is infant or came from another religion)?


-- 
Best Regards,
Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi

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Re: Baptism vs Christening

Philip Weiss
In reply to this post by Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi
You can use the word "Christening" for "Conversion", but you are going to find that is not a generally applicable definition.

Generally, a christening is the giving of a Christian name.  Sometimes that happened at a conversion, sometimes at baptism, sometimes it happened at another time in childhood.

If you use it to mean any of those other things, it's going to confuse people when you tell them someone was christened.

Philip.


On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 1:14 PM, Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 06/18/2013 10:47 AM, Dianne Reuby wrote:
In the Christian church, Baptism is the original term for accepting the
Christian faith. The term "Christening" was used by the general
population and has eventually become the accepted term. It covers both
infant and adult Baptism. Many Christian denominations and groups still
practice only adult baptism, others practice mainly infant baptism.
Thanks Dianne, I found your reply is most clear one, but I'm still need a tiny conformation from you.

Can I say "Christening" is the term called on people (or babies) who converted to Christianity (is infant or came from another religion)?


-- 
Best Regards,
Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi

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Re: Baptism vs Christening

Carey
I was baptized at my christening. Really. Lutheran perspective. I wouldn't be surprised to hear someone else say they were christened at their baptism. 

See if this helps:


The bottom line, I think, is the terms will be used by the person using them for what that person thinks they mean. So I don't think you should translate them. If someone is reported as "Baptized" there isn't anything to translate. They were not "Christened" or "XYZZY'd", they were "Baptized." 

Carey


On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 4:23 PM, Philip Weiss <[hidden email]> wrote:
You can use the word "Christening" for "Conversion", but you are going to find that is not a generally applicable definition.

Generally, a christening is the giving of a Christian name.  Sometimes that happened at a conversion, sometimes at baptism, sometimes it happened at another time in childhood.

If you use it to mean any of those other things, it's going to confuse people when you tell them someone was christened.

Philip.


On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 1:14 PM, Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 06/18/2013 10:47 AM, Dianne Reuby wrote:
In the Christian church, Baptism is the original term for accepting the
Christian faith. The term "Christening" was used by the general
population and has eventually become the accepted term. It covers both
infant and adult Baptism. Many Christian denominations and groups still
practice only adult baptism, others practice mainly infant baptism.
Thanks Dianne, I found your reply is most clear one, but I'm still need a tiny conformation from you.

Can I say "Christening" is the term called on people (or babies) who converted to Christianity (is infant or came from another religion)?


-- 
Best Regards,
Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi

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Re: Baptism vs Christening

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by Philip Weiss

In Roman Catholicism, baptism and Christening appear to happen during the same ceremony.

Many "low church" and evangelical Protestant denominations have no Christening, since they are doctrinally opposed to infant baptism, and infant baptism and Christening go hand-in-hand in the "high Church".

On 06/18/2013 03:28 PM, Carey Parks wrote:
I was baptized at my christening. Really. Lutheran perspective. I wouldn't be surprised to hear someone else say they were christened at their baptism. 

See if this helps:


The bottom line, I think, is the terms will be used by the person using them for what that person thinks they mean. So I don't think you should translate them. If someone is reported as "Baptized" there isn't anything to translate. They were not "Christened" or "XYZZY'd", they were "Baptized." 

Carey


On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 4:23 PM, Philip Weiss <[hidden email]> wrote:
You can use the word "Christening" for "Conversion", but you are going to find that is not a generally applicable definition.

Generally, a christening is the giving of a Christian name.  Sometimes that happened at a conversion, sometimes at baptism, sometimes it happened at another time in childhood.

If you use it to mean any of those other things, it's going to confuse people when you tell them someone was christened.

Philip.


On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 1:14 PM, Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 06/18/2013 10:47 AM, Dianne Reuby wrote:
In the Christian church, Baptism is the original term for accepting the
Christian faith. The term "Christening" was used by the general
population and has eventually become the accepted term. It covers both
infant and adult Baptism. Many Christian denominations and groups still
practice only adult baptism, others practice mainly infant baptism.
Thanks Dianne, I found your reply is most clear one, but I'm still need a tiny conformation from you.

Can I say "Christening" is the term called on people (or babies) who converted to Christianity (is infant or came from another religion)?


-- 
"There are no solutions; there are only tradeoffs."
Thomas Sowell

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Re: Baptism vs Christening

Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi
In reply to this post by Gerald Britton-2
On 06/18/2013 10:19 PM, Gerald Britton wrote:
Dianne is not technically correct.  Baptism is an act (immersion in water) signifying the accepting of the Christian faith.  It may happen close to that acceptance or be separated by weeks, months, even years.  
OMG, I'm really confused :-\

Does any one explain to me what each term means?

Baptism = ???
Christening = ???
Adult Christening = ???

Simple words guys, In my country most churches use similar traditions so I just know the term of "Baptism" but recently with Gramps I read about the others which their translation are the same in English-Arabic dictionaries !!!

-- 
Best Regards,
Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi

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Re: Baptism vs Christening

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by Tim Lyons
On 06/18/2013 03:11 PM, Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi wrote:
On 06/18/2013 04:29 PM, Tim Lyons wrote:
I think the answer to this question, as for some of your other questions, is
that it doesn't really matter what the words mean, what is important is what
was recorded in the original source. So if it was called Baptism or
Dedication or Naming, then that is what needs to be written.
I don't agree with you here. I've to be accurate because in Arab countries there are many Muslims and Christians use Gramps so I've to translate the exact mean of the words for making Gramps useful for all users not for specific religion.

Baptism - An act (somehow using water) of professing in public acceptance of Jesus Christ.  Depending on the denomination, can be pouring a bit of water on the head or full immersion, of an infant or someone old enough to know the difference between right and wrong.

Christening - Ceremony of giving of Christian (aka Given) name and the charging of God Parents that they will ensure the child will be brought up in the Christian faith.  In Roman Catholicism, happens in the same ceremony as infant Baptism.

Dedication - Replacement for Christening in low Church denominations where there is no Christening  but Grandparents still want to see their grandbabies wear a Christening gown up at the front of the church.

-- 
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Thomas Sowell

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Re: Baptism vs Christening

Carey
In reply to this post by Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi
The more people you ask, the more confused you will be. That's because these terms are assigned their meaning differently by different people. Seriously, don't translate it. Just use/record the word found in the source, regardless of what language you surround it with. Since the event has meaning within the religion of the person being acted on, you should call it what they called it. It was their ceremony, use their word. Any translation muddies things further. 

Carey

On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 5:08 PM, Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 06/18/2013 10:19 PM, Gerald Britton wrote:
Dianne is not technically correct.  Baptism is an act (immersion in water) signifying the accepting of the Christian faith.  It may happen close to that acceptance or be separated by weeks, months, even years.  
OMG, I'm really confused :-\

Does any one explain to me what each term means?

Baptism = ???
Christening = ???
Adult Christening = ???

Simple words guys, In my country most churches use similar traditions so I just know the term of "Baptism" but recently with Gramps I read about the others which their translation are the same in English-Arabic dictionaries !!!

-- 
Best Regards,
Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi

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Re: Baptism vs Christening

Nicholas Robinson
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
The only bit I would add/change is that in an infant baptism it is the parents and God~parents make the vows on behalf of the infant and vow to raise the child in.the faith.

The child then confirms for him or herself these vows (in the Church of England) at Confirmation. Usually early teenage. Confirmation is presided over by a bishop whereas baptism is done by a priest or vicar. 

Nick 

Sent from my iPhone

On 18 Jun 2013, at 22:14, Ron Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 06/18/2013 03:11 PM, Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi wrote:
On 06/18/2013 04:29 PM, Tim Lyons wrote:
I think the answer to this question, as for some of your other questions, is
that it doesn't really matter what the words mean, what is important is what
was recorded in the original source. So if it was called Baptism or
Dedication or Naming, then that is what needs to be written.
I don't agree with you here. I've to be accurate because in Arab countries there are many Muslims and Christians use Gramps so I've to translate the exact mean of the words for making Gramps useful for all users not for specific religion.

Baptism - An act (somehow using water) of professing in public acceptance of Jesus Christ.  Depending on the denomination, can be pouring a bit of water on the head or full immersion, of an infant or someone old enough to know the difference between right and wrong.

Christening - Ceremony of giving of Christian (aka Given) name and the charging of God Parents that they will ensure the child will be brought up in the Christian faith.  In Roman Catholicism, happens in the same ceremony as infant Baptism.

Dedication - Replacement for Christening in low Church denominations where there is no Christening  but Grandparents still want to see their grandbabies wear a Christening gown up at the front of the church.

-- 
"There are no solutions; there are only tradeoffs."
Thomas Sowell
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Re: Baptism vs Christening

enno
In reply to this post by Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi
Muhammad,
On 06/18/2013 10:19 PM, Gerald Britton wrote:
Dianne is not technically correct.  Baptism is an act (immersion in water) signifying the accepting of the Christian faith.  It may happen close to that acceptance or be separated by weeks, months, even years.  
OMG, I'm really confused :-\

Does any one explain to me what each term means?

Baptism = ???
Christening = ???
Adult Christening = ???
I think the explanation Ron gave is the best you can get. And you're not the only one that gets confused. My Dutch English dictionary translates the Dutch word 'doop' to baptism and christening, without further explanation.

Anyway, in its original meaning, baptism is the immersion in water, and the oldest baptism that I know of is that of Jesus Christ (Isah) himself, by John. I have no idea whether that is mentioned in the Quran though, but if it is, you may find the right Arab word in there.
Simple words guys, In my country most churches use similar traditions so I just know the term of "Baptism" but recently with Gramps I read about the others which their translation are the same in English-Arabic dictionaries !!!
H'm, I can't say anything more to explain other than what you read earlier that Christening is not necessarily linked to water, but is just about accepting the Christian name of a person.

regards,

Enno


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Re: Baptism vs Christening

LornaI
This looks like another one which is going to run, and run! 
To put my two-penn'orth in, my interpretation is:

Baptism: a religious ceremony whereby the person being baptised agrees to live within the tenets of the faith (or his or her sponsors agree that the child will, if they are considered too young to make that promise themselves).
Christening: a baptism into the Christian faith. This can take place at any age, but is usually done when a child is under the age of one.
Adult christening: as above, but taking place when the person is an adult, as opposed to the usual case above. You might want to use this for a person who had converted to the Christian faith from another faith, or who had converted to a different sect of Christianity. 

As a student of family history, these terms are only important to me because the church kept records of these events, giving the name of the person, one or both of their parents' names, often their age at baptism or their date of birth, the village where their parents lived, and sometimes other facts of interest to the family historian, such as father's occupation. The religion of the family might also be of interest, for example, to know on which side they were during the English Civil War. There are other religious ceremonies such as Confirmation (where a child renews their promise to live within the tenets of the faith, once they are considered old enough to be able to do so), but records of these events might not be kept by the church in a register, so they are not as easily accessible to the family historian.

Personally, of the 3 terms above I only ever use 'Baptism', as for me the 'adult' and 'Christian' are simply attributes which qualify the event of Baptism.  But everyone is free to use these terms how they like in their own trees! 


On 19 June 2013 00:13, Enno Borgsteede <[hidden email]> wrote:
Muhammad,
On 06/18/2013 10:19 PM, Gerald Britton wrote:
Dianne is not technically correct.  Baptism is an act (immersion in water) signifying the accepting of the Christian faith.  It may happen close to that acceptance or be separated by weeks, months, even years.  
OMG, I'm really confused :-\

Does any one explain to me what each term means?

Baptism = ???
Christening = ???
Adult Christening = ???
I think the explanation Ron gave is the best you can get. And you're not the only one that gets confused. My Dutch English dictionary translates the Dutch word 'doop' to baptism and christening, without further explanation.

Anyway, in its original meaning, baptism is the immersion in water, and the oldest baptism that I know of is that of Jesus Christ (Isah) himself, by John. I have no idea whether that is mentioned in the Quran though, but if it is, you may find the right Arab word in there.
Simple words guys, In my country most churches use similar traditions so I just know the term of "Baptism" but recently with Gramps I read about the others which their translation are the same in English-Arabic dictionaries !!!
H'm, I can't say anything more to explain other than what you read earlier that Christening is not necessarily linked to water, but is just about accepting the Christian name of a person.

regards,

Enno


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Re: Baptism vs Christening

paul womack
In reply to this post by Carey
Carey Parks wrote:
> Since the event has meaning within the religion of the person being acted on, you should call it what they called it. It was /their/ ceremony, use /their /word. Any translation muddies things further.

Agreed - there's no point trying to find a translation to another language (or, worse, equivalent in another religion) because
that can only be, at best, an approximation, with loss of information.

  BugBear



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