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Basic questions about citations and sources

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Basic questions about citations and sources

Jamison Roberts
I've decided I don't like all of my genealogy research in the hands of another company (Ancestry.com), so I decided to move it piece by piece and double check things as I do it to Gramps.

What I am confused by is exactly how I should be using citations and sources.  The primary documents, Birth, Death, and Marriage certificates it seems I should add them as a source, and then in the source gallery, attach a scan or picture of the document.

Then I use citations to reference that source in whatever event we are talking about.  For Birth cert, a citation on my dad's birth, and I guess one on each of his parents showing they are the parents?

That is my thought anyway.

But I get confused that the citation object itself has a gallery, so I wonder what exactly the use is of gallery on a citation?  Or maybe my use of source is wrong?

Regarding the census records, I've seen some fairly complex articles on how to set them up and I don't think I need to be that in depth.  A source with title of something like "1880 Census for family of Griffin Gillespie" should be sufficient, then a citation on each person contained in that family.  

That brings me to my last bit of confusion.  The way I'm doing it now, to see my dad's birth certificate, I have to click on his name, click on the birth even, click on the citation, click on the source for that citation, and then click on the gallery tab, then double click on the thumbnail to see the actual document.  That seems a bit much, but maybe that's fine if there is an easier way to put all cited documents in a report for an individual.  

I did RTFM but it seems to dance around the specific use cases I have mentioned above.

Thanks,
-Jamison R.

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Re: Basic questions about citations and sources

Rich Lakey
As far as your last observation that to view your fathers birth certificate takes a lot of clicks I would agree.  What I have done is not only have the birth certificate in the source gallery, citation gallery but also I add to the person gallery. Seems like overkill, but the only way to see a document easily is have it in the person gallery. These are only links as the image only exist once. Also when I create a census entry I do the same. All images in the person gallery are in date sequence except for the one I want to show in the image of the person view.  This works nicely for the Narrated Web site as all the images show without a lot of clicks. And its not intuitive in the Narrated Web site how to display the images in the citation or source.
Rich

On 02/12/2017 11:09 AM, Jamison Roberts wrote:
I've decided I don't like all of my genealogy research in the hands of another company (Ancestry.com), so I decided to move it piece by piece and double check things as I do it to Gramps.

What I am confused by is exactly how I should be using citations and sources.  The primary documents, Birth, Death, and Marriage certificates it seems I should add them as a source, and then in the source gallery, attach a scan or picture of the document.

Then I use citations to reference that source in whatever event we are talking about.  For Birth cert, a citation on my dad's birth, and I guess one on each of his parents showing they are the parents?

That is my thought anyway.

But I get confused that the citation object itself has a gallery, so I wonder what exactly the use is of gallery on a citation?  Or maybe my use of source is wrong?

Regarding the census records, I've seen some fairly complex articles on how to set them up and I don't think I need to be that in depth.  A source with title of something like "1880 Census for family of Griffin Gillespie" should be sufficient, then a citation on each person contained in that family.  

That brings me to my last bit of confusion.  The way I'm doing it now, to see my dad's birth certificate, I have to click on his name, click on the birth even, click on the citation, click on the source for that citation, and then click on the gallery tab, then double click on the thumbnail to see the actual document.  That seems a bit much, but maybe that's fine if there is an easier way to put all cited documents in a report for an individual.  

I did RTFM but it seems to dance around the specific use cases I have mentioned above.

Thanks,
-Jamison R.


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Re: Basic questions about citations and sources

Philip Weiss
In reply to this post by Jamison Roberts
The classic source is a book, and a citation is a specific page in the book.  But that doesn't really match with a lot of other documents.

You can make a source be an individual document such as a birth certificate, such as you are doing it. The citation usually won't be of much use if you do it that way, but it's valid.

Another way is to make the source a bit broader, and how much broader is up to you. So, in the case of birth certificates, it might be "Birth Certificates from King County Washington Vital Records", and the citation is the individual birth certificate, identified by certificate number.

Or you might want to make it slightly less broad.  Many of the places I research kept birth certificate records in physical books.  A source could be "Grant County Wisconsin Birth Certificates volume 3" and the citation would be "page 34,certificate 7".   This could also be done as a source of "Birth certificates from Grant Count Wisconsin" and a citation of "volume 3, page 34, certificate 7".

Pick what way is comfortable to you.  The more sources in your database, the more general you may want your sources to be.  Generally, what is easiest for you to be able to quickly find the items while still reasonably grouping them is best.

I'd highly recommend reading Elizabeth Shown Mills "Evidence Explained" for understanding concepts involved in citation and how to group them.  Don't take what she writes as gospel, because what she does is meant for publishing papers (not recording stuff in genealogy software) and is quite weird in many cases.  But it does cover the concepts pretty comprehensively.

Phil.

On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 9:09 AM, Jamison Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:
I've decided I don't like all of my genealogy research in the hands of another company (Ancestry.com), so I decided to move it piece by piece and double check things as I do it to Gramps.

What I am confused by is exactly how I should be using citations and sources.  The primary documents, Birth, Death, and Marriage certificates it seems I should add them as a source, and then in the source gallery, attach a scan or picture of the document.

Then I use citations to reference that source in whatever event we are talking about.  For Birth cert, a citation on my dad's birth, and I guess one on each of his parents showing they are the parents?

That is my thought anyway.

But I get confused that the citation object itself has a gallery, so I wonder what exactly the use is of gallery on a citation?  Or maybe my use of source is wrong?

Regarding the census records, I've seen some fairly complex articles on how to set them up and I don't think I need to be that in depth.  A source with title of something like "1880 Census for family of Griffin Gillespie" should be sufficient, then a citation on each person contained in that family.  

That brings me to my last bit of confusion.  The way I'm doing it now, to see my dad's birth certificate, I have to click on his name, click on the birth even, click on the citation, click on the source for that citation, and then click on the gallery tab, then double click on the thumbnail to see the actual document.  That seems a bit much, but maybe that's fine if there is an easier way to put all cited documents in a report for an individual.  

I did RTFM but it seems to dance around the specific use cases I have mentioned above.

Thanks,
-Jamison R.

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Re: Basic questions about citations and sources

Dave Scheipers
In reply to this post by Jamison Roberts
Welcome Jamison

There are three components to citing information in your database.

1: Repository -- where you found the information. Ancestry.com and FamilySearch.org are two but can also be libraries and other web sites you visit, etc.

2: Source -- What you looked through at the repository. Which book, which database, etc. For Ancestry and FamilySearch I  use as the source title used by the sites. I also have generic sources that I use when I have a scan of documents obtained directly from family members.

3: Citation -- the internal information of the source that would allow someone else to get the same information.

As to the gallery tabs, if I have an image of the document or page, then I would include it on the citation record. Often, I'll find a PDF of books which I would attach to the source. Wherever possible, I'll attach the scans and images because as I share my efforts with other family members, usually though the narrated website, the images can be included which concretely documents what I found, more than just the saying the info is on page such and such.

For source records, I try to keep the source at the macro level: US 1850 Census, etc. Then in the citation, it will have State, county, Locale District: Image: Line:  And yes, I'll attach the image in the citation's gallery. The page of census information may include your family, but it's not their census. There are often other people that are also on the page and they will have the same source and a similar citation just with a different line number.

This is how I handle sourcing my information. Others will do it differently.

Hope this helps, Dave

On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Jamison Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:
I've decided I don't like all of my genealogy research in the hands of another company (Ancestry.com), so I decided to move it piece by piece and double check things as I do it to Gramps.

What I am confused by is exactly how I should be using citations and sources.  The primary documents, Birth, Death, and Marriage certificates it seems I should add them as a source, and then in the source gallery, attach a scan or picture of the document.

Then I use citations to reference that source in whatever event we are talking about.  For Birth cert, a citation on my dad's birth, and I guess one on each of his parents showing they are the parents?

That is my thought anyway.

But I get confused that the citation object itself has a gallery, so I wonder what exactly the use is of gallery on a citation?  Or maybe my use of source is wrong?

Regarding the census records, I've seen some fairly complex articles on how to set them up and I don't think I need to be that in depth.  A source with title of something like "1880 Census for family of Griffin Gillespie" should be sufficient, then a citation on each person contained in that family.  

That brings me to my last bit of confusion.  The way I'm doing it now, to see my dad's birth certificate, I have to click on his name, click on the birth even, click on the citation, click on the source for that citation, and then click on the gallery tab, then double click on the thumbnail to see the actual document.  That seems a bit much, but maybe that's fine if there is an easier way to put all cited documents in a report for an individual.  

I did RTFM but it seems to dance around the specific use cases I have mentioned above.

Thanks,
-Jamison R.

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Re: Basic questions about citations and sources

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by Jamison Roberts
And sometimes you'll just have a (copy of a) vital document.  In that case, I scan/photograph them and make the Source be "Scanned Documents" and the Citations be what the actual documents are.  (I've got 38 separate citations under "Scanned Documents".)

On 02/12/2017 11:39 AM, Philip Weiss wrote:
The classic source is a book, and a citation is a specific page in the book.  But that doesn't really match with a lot of other documents.

You can make a source be an individual document such as a birth certificate, such as you are doing it. The citation usually won't be of much use if you do it that way, but it's valid.

Another way is to make the source a bit broader, and how much broader is up to you. So, in the case of birth certificates, it might be "Birth Certificates from King County Washington Vital Records", and the citation is the individual birth certificate, identified by certificate number.

Or you might want to make it slightly less broad.  Many of the places I research kept birth certificate records in physical books.  A source could be "Grant County Wisconsin Birth Certificates volume 3" and the citation would be "page 34,certificate 7".   This could also be done as a source of "Birth certificates from Grant Count Wisconsin" and a citation of "volume 3, page 34, certificate 7".

Pick what way is comfortable to you.  The more sources in your database, the more general you may want your sources to be.  Generally, what is easiest for you to be able to quickly find the items while still reasonably grouping them is best.

I'd highly recommend reading Elizabeth Shown Mills "Evidence Explained" for understanding concepts involved in citation and how to group them.  Don't take what she writes as gospel, because what she does is meant for publishing papers (not recording stuff in genealogy software) and is quite weird in many cases.  But it does cover the concepts pretty comprehensively.

Phil.

On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 9:09 AM, Jamison Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:
I've decided I don't like all of my genealogy research in the hands of another company (Ancestry.com), so I decided to move it piece by piece and double check things as I do it to Gramps.

What I am confused by is exactly how I should be using citations and sources.  The primary documents, Birth, Death, and Marriage certificates it seems I should add them as a source, and then in the source gallery, attach a scan or picture of the document.

Then I use citations to reference that source in whatever event we are talking about.  For Birth cert, a citation on my dad's birth, and I guess one on each of his parents showing they are the parents?

That is my thought anyway.

But I get confused that the citation object itself has a gallery, so I wonder what exactly the use is of gallery on a citation?  Or maybe my use of source is wrong?

Regarding the census records, I've seen some fairly complex articles on how to set them up and I don't think I need to be that in depth.  A source with title of something like "1880 Census for family of Griffin Gillespie" should be sufficient, then a citation on each person contained in that family.  

That brings me to my last bit of confusion.  The way I'm doing it now, to see my dad's birth certificate, I have to click on his name, click on the birth even, click on the citation, click on the source for that citation, and then click on the gallery tab, then double click on the thumbnail to see the actual document.  That seems a bit much, but maybe that's fine if there is an easier way to put all cited documents in a report for an individual.  

I did RTFM but it seems to dance around the specific use cases I have mentioned above.

Thanks,
-Jamison R.

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Re: Basic questions about citations and sources

Philip Weiss
In reply to this post by Philip Weiss


On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 9:39 AM, Philip Weiss <[hidden email]> wrote:
The classic source is a book, and a citation is a specific page in the book.  But that doesn't really match with a lot of other documents.

You can make a source be an individual document such as a birth certificate, such as you are doing it. The citation usually won't be of much use if you do it that way, but it's valid.

Another way is to make the source a bit broader, and how much broader is up to you. So, in the case of birth certificates, it might be "Birth Certificates from King County Washington Vital Records", and the citation is the individual birth certificate, identified by certificate number.

Or you might want to make it slightly less broad.  Many of the places I research kept birth certificate records in physical books.  A source could be "Grant County Wisconsin Birth Certificates volume 3" and the citation would be "page 34,certificate 7".   This could also be done as a source of "Birth certificates from Grant Count Wisconsin" and a citation of "volume 3, page 34, certificate 7".

Pick what way is comfortable to you.  The more sources in your database, the more general you may want your sources to be.  Generally, what is easiest for you to be able to quickly find the items while still reasonably grouping them is best.

I'd highly recommend reading Elizabeth Shown Mills "Evidence Explained" for understanding concepts involved in citation and how to group them.  Don't take what she writes as gospel, because what she does is meant for publishing papers (not recording stuff in genealogy software) and is quite weird in many cases.  But it does cover the concepts pretty comprehensively.

Phil.

On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 9:09 AM, Jamison Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:
I've decided I don't like all of my genealogy research in the hands of another company (Ancestry.com), so I decided to move it piece by piece and double check things as I do it to Gramps.

What I am confused by is exactly how I should be using citations and sources.  The primary documents, Birth, Death, and Marriage certificates it seems I should add them as a source, and then in the source gallery, attach a scan or picture of the document.

Then I use citations to reference that source in whatever event we are talking about.  For Birth cert, a citation on my dad's birth, and I guess one on each of his parents showing they are the parents?

That is my thought anyway.

But I get confused that the citation object itself has a gallery, so I wonder what exactly the use is of gallery on a citation?  Or maybe my use of source is wrong?

Regarding the census records, I've seen some fairly complex articles on how to set them up and I don't think I need to be that in depth.  A source with title of something like "1880 Census for family of Griffin Gillespie" should be sufficient, then a citation on each person contained in that family.  

That brings me to my last bit of confusion.  The way I'm doing it now, to see my dad's birth certificate, I have to click on his name, click on the birth even, click on the citation, click on the source for that citation, and then click on the gallery tab, then double click on the thumbnail to see the actual document.  That seems a bit much, but maybe that's fine if there is an easier way to put all cited documents in a report for an individual.  

I did RTFM but it seems to dance around the specific use cases I have mentioned above.

Thanks,
-Jamison R.


And if it helps at all, I took a screenshot of my sources window as I'm working on it today.  Gives an idea of how I break down sources.


Phil. 


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Re: Basic questions about citations and sources

Peter Merchant
In reply to this post by Jamison Roberts
On 12/02/17 17:09, Jamison Roberts wrote:
I've decided I don't like all of my genealogy research in the hands of another company (Ancestry.com), so I decided to move it piece by piece and double check things as I do it to Gramps.
....
What I am confused by is exactly how I should be using citations and sources.  The primary documents, Birth, Death, and Marriage certificates it seems I should add them as a source, and then in the source gallery, attach a scan or picture of the document.
.....
Regarding the census records, I've seen some fairly complex articles on how to set them up and I don't think I need to be that in depth.  A source with title of something like "1880 Census for family of Griffin Gillespie" should be sufficient, then a citation on each person contained in that family.  

I have recently started trying to do this with my trees, and as you say, do not find it simple.

My current problem is that when i download a census record/sheet from Ancestry, it has a unique identification number and I rename it to something useful to me. I don't know how to record this ID number as it is a unique identifier for that source. For example:

1851 census Charles heath (Brighton) SSXHO107_1645_1645-1829.jpg is how I now name the downloaded record in order to keep that unique number, But in the past I would have just renamed it to:

1851 census Charles heath (Brighton).jpg

Peter M.




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Re: Basic questions about citations and sources

Peter (chamdo4ever)
On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 4:23 PM, Peter Merchant
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
<SNIP>

> My current problem is that when i download a census record/sheet from
> Ancestry, it has a unique identification number and I rename it to something
> useful to me. I don't know how to record this ID number as it is a unique
> identifier for that source. For example:
>
> 1851 census Charles heath (Brighton) SSXHO107_1645_1645-1829.jpg is how I
> now name the downloaded record in order to keep that unique number, But in
> the past I would have just renamed it to:
>
> 1851 census Charles heath (Brighton).jpg

I don't know if this is at all helpful to you, but whatever site I'm
downloading an image from (FamilySearch, Archive.org, Ance$try, etc.),
I always retain the name of the original file, but I add my own
details preceding it in the file name.

So, for example, in a 1940 Census record downloaded from FamilySearch,
I might call the file:

Smith_John_1940-04-10_-_record-image_3QS7-L9MY-KDS3.jpg

Everything after the dash ("-") is exactly what FamilySearch call the file.

Now, I recognize that there is no identifying it as a Census record in
the file name that way, but I have all the files organized in my hard
drive in folder by repository and then by source. So, in this case, it
is:

FamilySearch.org > United States Census, 1940 >
Smith_John_1940-04-10_-_record-image_3QS7-L9MY-KDS3.jpg

That may not work for everyone, but it works for me.

Peter

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Re: Basic questions about citations and sources

Dave Scheipers
In reply to this post by Peter Merchant
I haven't done much work with UK census records but the same is true for all the images.

For the US census, I rename the image: YEAR State, County, Locale Ward District Image page. This is the info that appears across the top of the image in Ancestry. And if you went to the main source page, it's the steps you'd use to get back to the image --- 1900 IN, Benton Co, Oak Grove 0007-14

When I create the media record, I'd give meaning to the numbers but I always use the same naming convention to avoid duplicates. -- 1900 IN, Benton Co, Oak Grove District:0007 Image:14

Here's one of my UK ones
1871 England, Surrey, Bermondsey 18-6
1871 England, Surrey, Bermondsey District:18 Image:6

I do the same for other images from other databases especially if the image contains info on more than the individual or family I'm interested in. If the image is unique to the individual, I'll use name it for that individual.

Last Name, First YYYY-MM-DD and then put the image in either the Birth or death folder so don't label it. But I will label things like draft records, pension records that go into the Military folder

Draft-WW2-Last Name, First

Some types of images I see regularly so my naming convention is clear in my mind. When I'm not sure, I always see how I've named other records.

This is the system that's worked out for me with occasional tweaks, most of them moving types of records out of one folder into a new one.

Hope this helps, Dave


On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 4:23 PM, Peter Merchant <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 12/02/17 17:09, Jamison Roberts wrote:
I've decided I don't like all of my genealogy research in the hands of another company (Ancestry.com), so I decided to move it piece by piece and double check things as I do it to Gramps.
....
What I am confused by is exactly how I should be using citations and sources.  The primary documents, Birth, Death, and Marriage certificates it seems I should add them as a source, and then in the source gallery, attach a scan or picture of the document.
.....
Regarding the census records, I've seen some fairly complex articles on how to set them up and I don't think I need to be that in depth.  A source with title of something like "1880 Census for family of Griffin Gillespie" should be sufficient, then a citation on each person contained in that family.  

I have recently started trying to do this with my trees, and as you say, do not find it simple.

My current problem is that when i download a census record/sheet from Ancestry, it has a unique identification number and I rename it to something useful to me. I don't know how to record this ID number as it is a unique identifier for that source. For example:

1851 census Charles heath (Brighton) SSXHO107_1645_1645-1829.jpg is how I now name the downloaded record in order to keep that unique number, But in the past I would have just renamed it to:

1851 census Charles heath (Brighton).jpg

Peter M.




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Re: Basic questions about citations and sources

Peter Merchant
In reply to this post by Peter (chamdo4ever)
On 12/02/17 22:01, Peter (chamdo4ever) wrote:

> On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 4:23 PM, Peter Merchant
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> <SNIP>
>> My current problem is that when i download a census record/sheet from
>> Ancestry, it has a unique identification number and I rename it to something
>> useful to me. I don't know how to record this ID number as it is a unique
>> identifier for that source. For example:
>>
>> 1851 census Charles heath (Brighton) SSXHO107_1645_1645-1829.jpg is how I
>> now name the downloaded record in order to keep that unique number, But in
>> the past I would have just renamed it to:
>>
>> 1851 census Charles heath (Brighton).jpg
> I don't know if this is at all helpful to you, but whatever site I'm
> downloading an image from (FamilySearch, Archive.org, Ance$try, etc.),
> I always retain the name of the original file, but I add my own
> details preceding it in the file name.
>
> So, for example, in a 1940 Census record downloaded from FamilySearch,
> I might call the file:
>
> Smith_John_1940-04-10_-_record-image_3QS7-L9MY-KDS3.jpg
>
> Everything after the dash ("-") is exactly what FamilySearch call the file.
>
> Now, I recognize that there is no identifying it as a Census record in
> the file name that way, but I have all the files organized in my hard
> drive in folder by repository and then by source. So, in this case, it
> is:
>
> FamilySearch.org > United States Census, 1940 >
> Smith_John_1940-04-10_-_record-image_3QS7-L9MY-KDS3.jpg
>
> That may not work for everyone, but it works for me.
>
> Peter
> .
Hi Peter, My rationale for starting the naming with a year is that I
mainly work using Dolphin file manager in Kubuntu 16.04 and when I look
into a family folder I can see history develop, and it sometimes helps
me see holes where I need to see where someone is at a certain time. At
the moment I have got one ancestor who cannot be found anywhere at the
1871 census, and another who seems to have about 3 different wives over
10 years, but I can't find the demise of these women.

For ancient family photos that my brothers are scanning we have agreed
to use the same naming protocol, though we sometimes argue over the year.

Peter M.

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Re: Basic questions about citations and sources

Marcus Zurhorst
Hello all,

it is kind of scary to see that everyone has a different interpretation of the proper application of sources an citations.  I am in the same trap, and I am afraid that will bring me into trouble further downstream when I exchange data with other tools.  E.g., I use TNG to publish the reseach data on my website.

I initially started with a source for each and every e.g. birth certificate or so.
But I understood that it is mandatory to have a citation as well, and I ended with either empty citation titles, or I copied the exact title from the source to the citation.  That felt terrible.

Recently, I restructured my data once more, and now I declared that the particular administration that issued the birth certificate is the source.
And now I have for each individual certificate an citation.  This made more sense to me.

Same for infos I am capturing from conversations with relatives:
The source is "infos from Mom", and the different citations are e.g "email from Feb 2, 2017" or so.  This keeps the number of sources a bit lower and makes it more convenient for me.


Is there any best practise how to structure things when it comes to exchange of GEDCOMs?


Thank you.

Regards,
   Marcus



2017-02-13 10:28 GMT+01:00 Peter Merchant <[hidden email]>:
On 12/02/17 22:01, Peter (chamdo4ever) wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 4:23 PM, Peter Merchant
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> <SNIP>
>> My current problem is that when i download a census record/sheet from
>> Ancestry, it has a unique identification number and I rename it to something
>> useful to me. I don't know how to record this ID number as it is a unique
>> identifier for that source. For example:
>>
>> 1851 census Charles heath (Brighton) SSXHO107_1645_1645-1829.jpg is how I
>> now name the downloaded record in order to keep that unique number, But in
>> the past I would have just renamed it to:
>>
>> 1851 census Charles heath (Brighton).jpg
> I don't know if this is at all helpful to you, but whatever site I'm
> downloading an image from (FamilySearch, Archive.org, Ance$try, etc.),
> I always retain the name of the original file, but I add my own
> details preceding it in the file name.
>
> So, for example, in a 1940 Census record downloaded from FamilySearch,
> I might call the file:
>
> Smith_John_1940-04-10_-_record-image_3QS7-L9MY-KDS3.jpg
>
> Everything after the dash ("-") is exactly what FamilySearch call the file.
>
> Now, I recognize that there is no identifying it as a Census record in
> the file name that way, but I have all the files organized in my hard
> drive in folder by repository and then by source. So, in this case, it
> is:
>
> FamilySearch.org > United States Census, 1940 >
> Smith_John_1940-04-10_-_record-image_3QS7-L9MY-KDS3.jpg
>
> That may not work for everyone, but it works for me.
>
> Peter
> .
Hi Peter, My rationale for starting the naming with a year is that I
mainly work using Dolphin file manager in Kubuntu 16.04 and when I look
into a family folder I can see history develop, and it sometimes helps
me see holes where I need to see where someone is at a certain time. At
the moment I have got one ancestor who cannot be found anywhere at the
1871 census, and another who seems to have about 3 different wives over
10 years, but I can't find the demise of these women.

For ancient family photos that my brothers are scanning we have agreed
to use the same naming protocol, though we sometimes argue over the year.

Peter M.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Basic questions about citations and sources

Dave Scheipers
Hi Marcus

You don't indicate what you actually have so I'll assume you have scans of birth certificates. I'd create a source "Birth Certificate". For the citation, I'd attach the scan, with the date as the event date and in the Vol/Page I'd put the State and whatever number is on the certificate.

An alternative if you know how or who gave you the document a source could be "Documents from XXXX' then use the citation above but add what type of document; Birth Certificate: State: #####

Just my thoughts, Hope it helps, Dave

On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 12:28 PM, Marcus Zurhorst <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello all,

it is kind of scary to see that everyone has a different interpretation of the proper application of sources an citations.  I am in the same trap, and I am afraid that will bring me into trouble further downstream when I exchange data with other tools.  E.g., I use TNG to publish the reseach data on my website.

I initially started with a source for each and every e.g. birth certificate or so.
But I understood that it is mandatory to have a citation as well, and I ended with either empty citation titles, or I copied the exact title from the source to the citation.  That felt terrible.

Recently, I restructured my data once more, and now I declared that the particular administration that issued the birth certificate is the source.
And now I have for each individual certificate an citation.  This made more sense to me.

Same for infos I am capturing from conversations with relatives:
The source is "infos from Mom", and the different citations are e.g "email from Feb 2, 2017" or so.  This keeps the number of sources a bit lower and makes it more convenient for me.


Is there any best practise how to structure things when it comes to exchange of GEDCOMs?


Thank you.

Regards,
   Marcus




2017-02-13 10:28 GMT+01:00 Peter Merchant <[hidden email]>:
On 12/02/17 22:01, Peter (chamdo4ever) wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 4:23 PM, Peter Merchant
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> <SNIP>
>> My current problem is that when i download a census record/sheet from
>> Ancestry, it has a unique identification number and I rename it to something
>> useful to me. I don't know how to record this ID number as it is a unique
>> identifier for that source. For example:
>>
>> 1851 census Charles heath (Brighton) SSXHO107_1645_1645-1829.jpg is how I
>> now name the downloaded record in order to keep that unique number, But in
>> the past I would have just renamed it to:
>>
>> 1851 census Charles heath (Brighton).jpg
> I don't know if this is at all helpful to you, but whatever site I'm
> downloading an image from (FamilySearch, Archive.org, Ance$try, etc.),
> I always retain the name of the original file, but I add my own
> details preceding it in the file name.
>
> So, for example, in a 1940 Census record downloaded from FamilySearch,
> I might call the file:
>
> Smith_John_1940-04-10_-_record-image_3QS7-L9MY-KDS3.jpg
>
> Everything after the dash ("-") is exactly what FamilySearch call the file.
>
> Now, I recognize that there is no identifying it as a Census record in
> the file name that way, but I have all the files organized in my hard
> drive in folder by repository and then by source. So, in this case, it
> is:
>
> FamilySearch.org > United States Census, 1940 >
> Smith_John_1940-04-10_-_record-image_3QS7-L9MY-KDS3.jpg
>
> That may not work for everyone, but it works for me.
>
> Peter
> .
Hi Peter, My rationale for starting the naming with a year is that I
mainly work using Dolphin file manager in Kubuntu 16.04 and when I look
into a family folder I can see history develop, and it sometimes helps
me see holes where I need to see where someone is at a certain time. At
the moment I have got one ancestor who cannot be found anywhere at the
1871 census, and another who seems to have about 3 different wives over
10 years, but I can't find the demise of these women.

For ancient family photos that my brothers are scanning we have agreed
to use the same naming protocol, though we sometimes argue over the year.

Peter M.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Basic questions about citations and sources

Rich Lakey
I just did a quick search and found http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~tqpeiffer/Documents/Source%20&%20Citation%20Formats.htm
I only glanced at it so far, but might be some good ideas.  But somewhere on the net should be some ideas on standardization.
Rich



On 02/13/2017 12:00 PM, Dave Scheipers wrote:
Hi Marcus

You don't indicate what you actually have so I'll assume you have scans of birth certificates. I'd create a source "Birth Certificate". For the citation, I'd attach the scan, with the date as the event date and in the Vol/Page I'd put the State and whatever number is on the certificate.

An alternative if you know how or who gave you the document a source could be "Documents from XXXX' then use the citation above but add what type of document; Birth Certificate: State: #####

Just my thoughts, Hope it helps, Dave

On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 12:28 PM, Marcus Zurhorst <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello all,

it is kind of scary to see that everyone has a different interpretation of the proper application of sources an citations.  I am in the same trap, and I am afraid that will bring me into trouble further downstream when I exchange data with other tools.  E.g., I use TNG to publish the reseach data on my website.

I initially started with a source for each and every e.g. birth certificate or so.
But I understood that it is mandatory to have a citation as well, and I ended with either empty citation titles, or I copied the exact title from the source to the citation.  That felt terrible.

Recently, I restructured my data once more, and now I declared that the particular administration that issued the birth certificate is the source.
And now I have for each individual certificate an citation.  This made more sense to me.

Same for infos I am capturing from conversations with relatives:
The source is "infos from Mom", and the different citations are e.g "email from Feb 2, 2017" or so.  This keeps the number of sources a bit lower and makes it more convenient for me.


Is there any best practise how to structure things when it comes to exchange of GEDCOMs?


Thank you.

Regards,
   Marcus




2017-02-13 10:28 GMT+01:00 Peter Merchant <[hidden email]>:
On 12/02/17 22:01, Peter (chamdo4ever) wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 4:23 PM, Peter Merchant
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> <SNIP>
>> My current problem is that when i download a census record/sheet from
>> Ancestry, it has a unique identification number and I rename it to something
>> useful to me. I don't know how to record this ID number as it is a unique
>> identifier for that source. For example:
>>
>> 1851 census Charles heath (Brighton) SSXHO107_1645_1645-1829.jpg is how I
>> now name the downloaded record in order to keep that unique number, But in
>> the past I would have just renamed it to:
>>
>> 1851 census Charles heath (Brighton).jpg
> I don't know if this is at all helpful to you, but whatever site I'm
> downloading an image from (FamilySearch, Archive.org, Ance$try, etc.),
> I always retain the name of the original file, but I add my own
> details preceding it in the file name.
>
> So, for example, in a 1940 Census record downloaded from FamilySearch,
> I might call the file:
>
> Smith_John_1940-04-10_-_record-image_3QS7-L9MY-KDS3.jpg
>
> Everything after the dash ("-") is exactly what FamilySearch call the file.
>
> Now, I recognize that there is no identifying it as a Census record in
> the file name that way, but I have all the files organized in my hard
> drive in folder by repository and then by source. So, in this case, it
> is:
>
> FamilySearch.org > United States Census, 1940 >
> Smith_John_1940-04-10_-_record-image_3QS7-L9MY-KDS3.jpg
>
> That may not work for everyone, but it works for me.
>
> Peter
> .
Hi Peter, My rationale for starting the naming with a year is that I
mainly work using Dolphin file manager in Kubuntu 16.04 and when I look
into a family folder I can see history develop, and it sometimes helps
me see holes where I need to see where someone is at a certain time. At
the moment I have got one ancestor who cannot be found anywhere at the
1871 census, and another who seems to have about 3 different wives over
10 years, but I can't find the demise of these women.

For ancient family photos that my brothers are scanning we have agreed
to use the same naming protocol, though we sometimes argue over the year.

Peter M.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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--
Have you backed up your files today?

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Re: Basic questions about citations and sources

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by Dave Scheipers
The problem with standardization is that there are so fscking many ways that governments and churches have organized documents over the centuries.

And even when there are standardizable citations (US Census records from 1850-1940, for example), you might think that FHL microfilm numbers are the cat's meow of citations, while I think that's a silly and unnecessary tie to the LDS when the US government already made a perfectly useful indexing system.

On 02/13/2017 01:10 PM, Rich wrote:
I just did a quick search and found http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~tqpeiffer/Documents/Source%20&%20Citation%20Formats.htm
I only glanced at it so far, but might be some good ideas.  But somewhere on the net should be some ideas on standardization.
Rich



On 02/13/2017 12:00 PM, Dave Scheipers wrote:
Hi Marcus

You don't indicate what you actually have so I'll assume you have scans of birth certificates. I'd create a source "Birth Certificate". For the citation, I'd attach the scan, with the date as the event date and in the Vol/Page I'd put the State and whatever number is on the certificate.

An alternative if you know how or who gave you the document a source could be "Documents from XXXX' then use the citation above but add what type of document; Birth Certificate: State: #####

Just my thoughts, Hope it helps, Dave

On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 12:28 PM, Marcus Zurhorst <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello all,

it is kind of scary to see that everyone has a different interpretation of the proper application of sources an citations.  I am in the same trap, and I am afraid that will bring me into trouble further downstream when I exchange data with other tools.  E.g., I use TNG to publish the reseach data on my website.

I initially started with a source for each and every e.g. birth certificate or so.
But I understood that it is mandatory to have a citation as well, and I ended with either empty citation titles, or I copied the exact title from the source to the citation.  That felt terrible.

Recently, I restructured my data once more, and now I declared that the particular administration that issued the birth certificate is the source.
And now I have for each individual certificate an citation.  This made more sense to me.

Same for infos I am capturing from conversations with relatives:
The source is "infos from Mom", and the different citations are e.g "email from Feb 2, 2017" or so.  This keeps the number of sources a bit lower and makes it more convenient for me.


Is there any best practise how to structure things when it comes to exchange of GEDCOMs?


Thank you.

Regards,
   Marcus




2017-02-13 10:28 GMT+01:00 Peter Merchant <[hidden email]>:
On 12/02/17 22:01, Peter (chamdo4ever) wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 4:23 PM, Peter Merchant
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> <SNIP>
>> My current problem is that when i download a census record/sheet from
>> Ancestry, it has a unique identification number and I rename it to something
>> useful to me. I don't know how to record this ID number as it is a unique
>> identifier for that source. For example:
>>
>> 1851 census Charles heath (Brighton) SSXHO107_1645_1645-1829.jpg is how I
>> now name the downloaded record in order to keep that unique number, But in
>> the past I would have just renamed it to:
>>
>> 1851 census Charles heath (Brighton).jpg
> I don't know if this is at all helpful to you, but whatever site I'm
> downloading an image from (FamilySearch, Archive.org, Ance$try, etc.),
> I always retain the name of the original file, but I add my own
> details preceding it in the file name.
>
> So, for example, in a 1940 Census record downloaded from FamilySearch,
> I might call the file:
>
> Smith_John_1940-04-10_-_record-image_3QS7-L9MY-KDS3.jpg
>
> Everything after the dash ("-") is exactly what FamilySearch call the file.
>
> Now, I recognize that there is no identifying it as a Census record in
> the file name that way, but I have all the files organized in my hard
> drive in folder by repository and then by source. So, in this case, it
> is:
>
> FamilySearch.org > United States Census, 1940 >
> Smith_John_1940-04-10_-_record-image_3QS7-L9MY-KDS3.jpg
>
> That may not work for everyone, but it works for me.
>
> Peter
> .
Hi Peter, My rationale for starting the naming with a year is that I
mainly work using Dolphin file manager in Kubuntu 16.04 and when I look
into a family folder I can see history develop, and it sometimes helps
me see holes where I need to see where someone is at a certain time. At
the moment I have got one ancestor who cannot be found anywhere at the
1871 census, and another who seems to have about 3 different wives over
10 years, but I can't find the demise of these women.

For ancient family photos that my brothers are scanning we have agreed
to use the same naming protocol, though we sometimes argue over the year.

Peter M.

-- 
World Peace Through Nuclear Pacification

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Re: Basic questions about citations and sources

Marcus Zurhorst
In reply to this post by Dave Scheipers
Hi Dave,

I thought I gave clear examples, but maybe my English was not good enough.
At the end, it all is a matter of personal style.  Since I am doing this genealogical research only since a couple years, I can still afford to restructure my data when I learn more.
But I have to admit, this is getting more and more painful with a growing chunk of information.

I think I am doing it quite close to what you describe. A little bit broader source definitions, and going into the details with the citations.  And I barely use the repositories right now.

Thanks & Regards,
  Marcus


2017-02-13 19:00 GMT+01:00 Dave Scheipers <[hidden email]>:
Hi Marcus

You don't indicate what you actually have so I'll assume you have scans of birth certificates. I'd create a source "Birth Certificate". For the citation, I'd attach the scan, with the date as the event date and in the Vol/Page I'd put the State and whatever number is on the certificate.

An alternative if you know how or who gave you the document a source could be "Documents from XXXX' then use the citation above but add what type of document; Birth Certificate: State: #####

Just my thoughts, Hope it helps, Dave

On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 12:28 PM, Marcus Zurhorst <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello all,

it is kind of scary to see that everyone has a different interpretation of the proper application of sources an citations.  I am in the same trap, and I am afraid that will bring me into trouble further downstream when I exchange data with other tools.  E.g., I use TNG to publish the reseach data on my website.

I initially started with a source for each and every e.g. birth certificate or so.
But I understood that it is mandatory to have a citation as well, and I ended with either empty citation titles, or I copied the exact title from the source to the citation.  That felt terrible.

Recently, I restructured my data once more, and now I declared that the particular administration that issued the birth certificate is the source.
And now I have for each individual certificate an citation.  This made more sense to me.

Same for infos I am capturing from conversations with relatives:
The source is "infos from Mom", and the different citations are e.g "email from Feb 2, 2017" or so.  This keeps the number of sources a bit lower and makes it more convenient for me.


Is there any best practise how to structure things when it comes to exchange of GEDCOMs?


Thank you.

Regards,
   Marcus




2017-02-13 10:28 GMT+01:00 Peter Merchant <[hidden email]>:
On 12/02/17 22:01, Peter (chamdo4ever) wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 4:23 PM, Peter Merchant
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> <SNIP>
>> My current problem is that when i download a census record/sheet from
>> Ancestry, it has a unique identification number and I rename it to something
>> useful to me. I don't know how to record this ID number as it is a unique
>> identifier for that source. For example:
>>
>> 1851 census Charles heath (Brighton) SSXHO107_1645_1645-1829.jpg is how I
>> now name the downloaded record in order to keep that unique number, But in
>> the past I would have just renamed it to:
>>
>> 1851 census Charles heath (Brighton).jpg
> I don't know if this is at all helpful to you, but whatever site I'm
> downloading an image from (FamilySearch, Archive.org, Ance$try, etc.),
> I always retain the name of the original file, but I add my own
> details preceding it in the file name.
>
> So, for example, in a 1940 Census record downloaded from FamilySearch,
> I might call the file:
>
> Smith_John_1940-04-10_-_record-image_3QS7-L9MY-KDS3.jpg
>
> Everything after the dash ("-") is exactly what FamilySearch call the file.
>
> Now, I recognize that there is no identifying it as a Census record in
> the file name that way, but I have all the files organized in my hard
> drive in folder by repository and then by source. So, in this case, it
> is:
>
> FamilySearch.org > United States Census, 1940 >
> Smith_John_1940-04-10_-_record-image_3QS7-L9MY-KDS3.jpg
>
> That may not work for everyone, but it works for me.
>
> Peter
> .
Hi Peter, My rationale for starting the naming with a year is that I
mainly work using Dolphin file manager in Kubuntu 16.04 and when I look
into a family folder I can see history develop, and it sometimes helps
me see holes where I need to see where someone is at a certain time. At
the moment I have got one ancestor who cannot be found anywhere at the
1871 census, and another who seems to have about 3 different wives over
10 years, but I can't find the demise of these women.

For ancient family photos that my brothers are scanning we have agreed
to use the same naming protocol, though we sometimes argue over the year.

Peter M.

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47199 Duisburg

+49 (2841) 94 92 95 9
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Re: Basic questions about citations and sources

Dave Scheipers
Hi Marcus,

We each do it our own way, the way it makes sense to us.

For me, does the citation, source and repository give me the information I (or anyone else) need to go back to the original record. Which is what the purpose of citing ones work is all about.

The only other advise --  what ever system you put into place, do it consistently the same way across your database.

Dave

On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 3:04 PM, Marcus Zurhorst <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Dave,

I thought I gave clear examples, but maybe my English was not good enough.
At the end, it all is a matter of personal style.  Since I am doing this genealogical research only since a couple years, I can still afford to restructure my data when I learn more.
But I have to admit, this is getting more and more painful with a growing chunk of information.

I think I am doing it quite close to what you describe. A little bit broader source definitions, and going into the details with the citations.  And I barely use the repositories right now.

Thanks & Regards,
  Marcus


2017-02-13 19:00 GMT+01:00 Dave Scheipers <[hidden email]>:
Hi Marcus

You don't indicate what you actually have so I'll assume you have scans of birth certificates. I'd create a source "Birth Certificate". For the citation, I'd attach the scan, with the date as the event date and in the Vol/Page I'd put the State and whatever number is on the certificate.

An alternative if you know how or who gave you the document a source could be "Documents from XXXX' then use the citation above but add what type of document; Birth Certificate: State: #####

Just my thoughts, Hope it helps, Dave

On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 12:28 PM, Marcus Zurhorst <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello all,

it is kind of scary to see that everyone has a different interpretation of the proper application of sources an citations.  I am in the same trap, and I am afraid that will bring me into trouble further downstream when I exchange data with other tools.  E.g., I use TNG to publish the reseach data on my website.

I initially started with a source for each and every e.g. birth certificate or so.
But I understood that it is mandatory to have a citation as well, and I ended with either empty citation titles, or I copied the exact title from the source to the citation.  That felt terrible.

Recently, I restructured my data once more, and now I declared that the particular administration that issued the birth certificate is the source.
And now I have for each individual certificate an citation.  This made more sense to me.

Same for infos I am capturing from conversations with relatives:
The source is "infos from Mom", and the different citations are e.g "email from Feb 2, 2017" or so.  This keeps the number of sources a bit lower and makes it more convenient for me.


Is there any best practise how to structure things when it comes to exchange of GEDCOMs?


Thank you.

Regards,
   Marcus




2017-02-13 10:28 GMT+01:00 Peter Merchant <[hidden email]>:
On 12/02/17 22:01, Peter (chamdo4ever) wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 4:23 PM, Peter Merchant
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> <SNIP>
>> My current problem is that when i download a census record/sheet from
>> Ancestry, it has a unique identification number and I rename it to something
>> useful to me. I don't know how to record this ID number as it is a unique
>> identifier for that source. For example:
>>
>> 1851 census Charles heath (Brighton) SSXHO107_1645_1645-1829.jpg is how I
>> now name the downloaded record in order to keep that unique number, But in
>> the past I would have just renamed it to:
>>
>> 1851 census Charles heath (Brighton).jpg
> I don't know if this is at all helpful to you, but whatever site I'm
> downloading an image from (FamilySearch, Archive.org, Ance$try, etc.),
> I always retain the name of the original file, but I add my own
> details preceding it in the file name.
>
> So, for example, in a 1940 Census record downloaded from FamilySearch,
> I might call the file:
>
> Smith_John_1940-04-10_-_record-image_3QS7-L9MY-KDS3.jpg
>
> Everything after the dash ("-") is exactly what FamilySearch call the file.
>
> Now, I recognize that there is no identifying it as a Census record in
> the file name that way, but I have all the files organized in my hard
> drive in folder by repository and then by source. So, in this case, it
> is:
>
> FamilySearch.org > United States Census, 1940 >
> Smith_John_1940-04-10_-_record-image_3QS7-L9MY-KDS3.jpg
>
> That may not work for everyone, but it works for me.
>
> Peter
> .
Hi Peter, My rationale for starting the naming with a year is that I
mainly work using Dolphin file manager in Kubuntu 16.04 and when I look
into a family folder I can see history develop, and it sometimes helps
me see holes where I need to see where someone is at a certain time. At
the moment I have got one ancestor who cannot be found anywhere at the
1871 census, and another who seems to have about 3 different wives over
10 years, but I can't find the demise of these women.

For ancient family photos that my brothers are scanning we have agreed
to use the same naming protocol, though we sometimes argue over the year.

Peter M.

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Marcus Zurhorst
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+49 (2841) 94 92 95 9
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