Better Place Name Management

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Better Place Name Management

Joachim Breitner
Hi,

this crossed my mind and I’d like to put it up for discussion:

Places change names during the times, and therefore Gramps has an
“alternative place name” field. But events still refer to the place as a
whole, which is not correct it seems: Events should contain the place
name that was relevant at that time.

So what do you think about this:
We extend the place name management to be as versatile as the person
name system in which each place name also has a date (range) associated.
Then a report could, when printing an event, look at the alternative
names and see if the event falls into the scope of those and print the
correct time from back then. It might also add something like “today …”
with the current name, if this is appropriate for the current report
style. More verbose reports (e.g. web site) could then even have a page
for the place and it’s names during the times.

Or maybe there is already a good way to handle this and I just don’t
know it.

Another idea that might be interesting for research might be an “is
included in” attribute for places. E.g. the place “Paris” is included in
“France” (which I use for events where I don’t know where in France it
happened), and when searching for events in “France” I might
(optionally) also find all events in “Paris”. Just an idea, it might be
a bad one.

Greetings,
Joachim



--
Joachim Breitner
  e-Mail: [hidden email]
  Homepage: http://www.joachim-breitner.de
  ICQ#: 74513189

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Re: Better Place Name Management

Andreas K.-2
Hi,

A few comments on Mr. Breitner's suggestions below:

>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:12:51 +0100
>From: Joachim Breitner <[hidden email]>

[snip]

>Places change names during the times, and therefore Gramps has an
>?alternative place name? field. But events still refer to the place as a
>whole, which is not correct it seems: Events should contain the place
>name that was relevant at that time.

I agree wholeheartedly.

>So what do you think about this:
>We extend the place name management to be as versatile as the person
>name system in which each place name also has a date (range) associated.
>Then a report could, when printing an event, look at the alternative
>names and see if the event falls into the scope of those and print the
>correct time from back then. It might also add something like ?today ??
>with the current name, if this is appropriate for the current report
>style. More verbose reports (e.g. web site) could then even have a page
>for the place and it?s names during the times.

I do agree with this suggestion. It sounds very interesting.

In addition to this, it would be nice if GRAMPS also could take care of the
fact that places are belonging to different countries, states, counties,
etc, during the history. It would be nice if one also could have dates for
when a place belong to a specific country, state, county, etc,

Regards,
Andreas

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Re: Better Place Name Management

Martin Hawlisch
In reply to this post by Joachim Breitner
Hi,

Von: Joachim Breitner <[hidden email]>
> Places change names during the times, and therefore Gramps has an
> “alternative place name” field. But events still refer to the place as
> a
> whole, which is not correct it seems: Events should contain the place
> name that was relevant at that time.

We could achieve that with one small addition: Adding a date field to the locations. So historical place names could then be entered as alternate  locations having the timespan given. Reports could then choose the alternate name that matches the date of the event and optionally print out the current name.


> Another idea that might be interesting for research might be an “is
> included in” attribute for places. E.g. the place “Paris” is
> included in
> “France” (which I use for events where I don’t know where in France
> it
> happened), and when searching for events in “France” I might
> (optionally) also find all events in “Paris”. Just an idea, it might
> be
> a bad one.

What I would like to see here is a hierachy of place objects so that they can be organized as a tree. This is what for example GeneWeb does.

Cheers,
  Martin
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Re: Better Place Name Management

Joachim Breitner
Hi,

Am Mittwoch, den 28.02.2007, 12:15 +0100 schrieb Martin Hawlisch:

> Hi,
>
> Von: Joachim Breitner <[hidden email]>
> > Places change names during the times, and therefore Gramps has an
> > “alternative place name” field. But events still refer to the place as
> > a
> > whole, which is not correct it seems: Events should contain the place
> > name that was relevant at that time.
>
> We could achieve that with one small addition: Adding a date field to the locations. So historical place names could then be entered as alternate  locations having the timespan given. Reports could then choose the alternate name that matches the date of the event and optionally print out the current name.

Yupp, that’s what I have in mind :-)

> > Another idea that might be interesting for research might be an “is
> > included in” attribute for places. E.g. the place “Paris” is
> > included in
> > “France” (which I use for events where I don’t know where in France
> > it
> > happened), and when searching for events in “France” I might
> > (optionally) also find all events in “Paris”. Just an idea, it might
> > be
> > a bad one.
>
> What I would like to see here is a hierachy of place objects so that they can be organized as a tree. This is what for example GeneWeb does.

It sounds good, the questions is whether this is overkill for Gramps
(after all, it is (not yet) a GIS :-)) and it’s users (some of whom
might not care about that), or whether it is desirable. I’m not sure
myself about  his point :-)


Greetings,
Joachim
--
Joachim Breitner
  e-Mail: [hidden email]
  Homepage: http://www.joachim-breitner.de
  ICQ#: 74513189

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Re: Better Place Name Management

bm-7
In reply to this post by Joachim Breitner
This is an idea I also had, and one that came up too, with the address-plac
e
discussion recently.

This is a complicated matter however, and a researcher can hardly enter all
place locations and it's alternate locations, it is just too complicated an
d
would need a dedicated application, not GRAMPS.

I think we should focus on the data we actually have, and not to the
exact place
structure as we know it from history. What do we commonly have in our sourc
es:
placenames with different spelling and places which have different names.
Different names is like St.Petersburg and Leningrad being the same. Differe
nt
spelling is just like the names of people: Zonnebeke, Sennebeke,
Sunnebeck, ...
appearing in documents but being the same.

GRAMPS in my eyes should be able to work with this, so
1/be able to store one place for St. Petersburg and Leningrad
2/allow me to search on a spelling variant, and return the place I have in
my
database to avoid double places, easy place merge keeping the variant names
.

My preference is that place is the point/region on the globe, with in
place data
the present day political structure it is contained in. So it does not real
ly
have a date. ( eg. St.Peterburg in Russia)
The alternate locations however should have a date range in my opinion,
so that
what you suggest is possible. (eg: 1924–1991 Leningrad, USSR and 19
21-1924,
Petrograd, USSR and  1914-1921, Petrograd, Russia

Concerning place contained in another place, this looks like a good idea, b
ut
has some problems: the containment changes over time (and actually quite a
lot). Also, legal structure division changes greatly over time. eg unificat
ion
of communities (counties do no longer exist in belgium but do appear on old
documents, however no present day structure can be attached to it, as all i
s
now in arrondissements and villages), ... .

So the contained in, is only possible at a specific date.

Therefore, I would prefer an automatic contained in structure: if two place
s
have the same country field, one can easily show it grouped in the place fi
eld
in a tree like structure:
Country -> Region -> city -> description.
This would give the user the illusion of having the places nicely structure
d,
while in reality it is constructed by reading the data in the same way the
person view is structured on displayname.
This would also allow to work with dates: give structure in 1540 would
give the
structure based on the alternate location that is valid for 1540. A tool co
uld
be made for that to test it out.

Benny

PS: Extra complication: places given different names by different
groups at the
same time, eg Lille France being Rijsel France in Flanders (this is not the
same as a translation and common in countries with minorities, eg jewish in
europe, ...). This means overlapping alternate locations with the same date
range.

Quoting Joachim Breitner <[hidden email]>:

> Hi,
>
> this crossed my mind and I’d like to put it up for discussion:
>
> Places change names during the times, and therefore Gramps has an
> “alternative place name” field. But events still refer to
 the place as a
> whole, which is not correct it seems: Events should contain the place
> name that was relevant at that time.
>
> So what do you think about this:
> We extend the place name management to be as versatile as the person
> name system in which each place name also has a date (range) associated.
> Then a report could, when printing an event, look at the alternative
> names and see if the event falls into the scope of those and print the
> correct time from back then. It might also add something like “to
day …”
> with the current name, if this is appropriate for the current report
> style. More verbose reports (e.g. web site) could then even have a page
> for the place and it’s names during the times.
>
> Or maybe there is already a good way to handle this and I just don�
�t
> know it.
>
> Another idea that might be interesting for research might be an “
is
> included in” attribute for places. E.g. the place “Paris
” is included in
> “France” (which I use for events where I don’t kn
ow where in France it
> happened), and when searching for events in “France” I mi
ght
> (optionally) also find all events in “Paris”. Just an ide
a, it might be

> a bad one.
>
> Greetings,
> Joachim
>
>
>
> --
> Joachim Breitner
>  e-Mail: [hidden email]
>  Homepage: http://www.joachim-breitner.de
>  ICQ#: 74513189
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT
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our
> opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys-and earn cash
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DEVDEV
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