Bibliography in reports (display of source information)

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Bibliography in reports (display of source information)

Brian Matherly
Duncan has been making a ruckus lately about the display of source information in reports. I tried an experiment just to see if I could improve things. Here is what I came up with.

For each source reference, I list the source once. Each reference is listed after the source. Sources are numbered while references are lettered. So a source reference is identified as a number and letter (eg 2.b). In this experiment, I display the source title, author and publication information. For each reference, I display the page, date and text. If a reference does not have any useful information, I don't display any reference information and only cite the source with a number.

See the attached file for an example.

Here are my questions:

Is this a good way to show sources?
Is there a better way?
Is there any standard for showing sources in genealogy? I tried looking into various styles that are used for research (APA, MLA), but they don't really fit well with the way data is stored in GEDCOM files.

Feedback would be appreciated.

~Brian

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Re: Bibliography in reports (display of source information)

bm-5
My source/sourceref discussion made clear there are quite some problems with
this in GRAMPS.

It would be nice to agree on my proposal and work towards that :-) It would
simplify things.

Concerning your proposal, it is not bad, but some issues related to what I
mentioned then:
* many double references. See the census tutorial on wiki: scratchpad is used
for making identical references! So, you should merge identical references in
an output,  or it quickly becomes ugly and comical, eg:

1.1984 Monty University Yearbook; Monty University Yearbook Committee
a. p. 22
b. p. 22
c. p. 22
d. p. 22
e. p. 22
f. p. 22

* You normally reference a source as follows: John [1] or John [1 pag.
22]. You
don't have :
3. www.softwareengineersrus.com; An online list of software engineers
a. Edwin is listed in three categories: publishing, manufacturing, and
graphics.; 2003-12-12

This 3.a is more like a footnote to a text about Edwin. In a report of
30 pages
having this in the Endnote section is of little use. Again, this is the
problem
of the sourceref object, which as it is now gives the impression you
should put
logical deductions in the sourceref. This however gives very awkward
situations
when you try to list the sources seperately of the object containing the
sourceref.

My suggestion, as before, would be: work out a workable workflow on how
to work
with sources, the present one just is no good for serious stuff. Document that
and work the interface reports around this. Trying to fix a broken design by
redoing the reports will only help people who use the broken design in a
specific way, and will leave the people doing it another way in the cold.

Good luck!
Benny


Quoting Brian Matherly <[hidden email]>:

> Duncan has been making a ruckus lately about the display of source
> information in reports. I tried an experiment just to see if I could
> improve things. Here is what I came up with.
>
> For each source reference, I list the source once. Each reference is
> listed after the source. Sources are numbered while references are
> lettered. So a source reference is identified as a number and letter
> (eg 2.b). In this experiment, I display the source title, author and
> publication information. For each reference, I display the page, date
> and text. If a reference does not have any useful information, I
> don't display any reference information and only cite the source with
> a number.
>
> See the attached file for an example.
>
> Here are my questions:
>
> Is this a good way to show sources?
> Is there a better way?
> Is there any standard for showing sources in genealogy? I tried
> looking into various styles that are used for research (APA, MLA),
> but they don't really fit well with the way data is stored in GEDCOM
> files.
>
> Feedback would be appreciated.
>
> ~Brian
>



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Re: Bibliography in reports (display of source information)

jerome
> many double references. See the census tutorial on wiki: scratchpad is used for making identical references!

Census tutorial was generate for 2.0.x ...
GRAMPS 2.2.x introduces a new source reference on repositorie.

I just move manually most of my previous sources on this new source
reference after 2.0/2.2 migration !!!

> on how to work with sources, the present one just is no good for serious stuff.

To update "How to enter census in GRAMPS" tutorial ?
http://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Recording_UK_Census_data



[hidden email] a écrit :

> My source/sourceref discussion made clear there are quite some problems with
> this in GRAMPS.
>
> It would be nice to agree on my proposal and work towards that :-) It would
> simplify things.
>
> Concerning your proposal, it is not bad, but some issues related to what I
> mentioned then:
> * many double references. See the census tutorial on wiki: scratchpad is used
> for making identical references! So, you should merge identical references in
> an output,  or it quickly becomes ugly and comical, eg:
>
> 1.1984 Monty University Yearbook; Monty University Yearbook Committee
> a. p. 22
> b. p. 22
> c. p. 22
> d. p. 22
> e. p. 22
> f. p. 22
>
> * You normally reference a source as follows: John [1] or John [1 pag.
> 22]. You
> don't have :
> 3. www.softwareengineersrus.com; An online list of software engineers
> a. Edwin is listed in three categories: publishing, manufacturing, and
> graphics.; 2003-12-12
>
> This 3.a is more like a footnote to a text about Edwin. In a report of
> 30 pages
> having this in the Endnote section is of little use. Again, this is the
> problem
> of the sourceref object, which as it is now gives the impression you
> should put
> logical deductions in the sourceref. This however gives very awkward
> situations
> when you try to list the sources seperately of the object containing the
> sourceref.
>
> My suggestion, as before, would be: work out a workable workflow on how
> to work
> with sources, the present one just is no good for serious stuff. Document that
> and work the interface reports around this. Trying to fix a broken design by
> redoing the reports will only help people who use the broken design in a
> specific way, and will leave the people doing it another way in the cold.

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Re: Bibliography in reports (display of source information)

Brian Matherly
In reply to this post by Brian Matherly
Benny,

>My source/sourceref discussion made clear there are quite some problems with
>this in GRAMPS.
>
>It would be nice to agree on my proposal and work towards that :-) It would
>simplify things.

I don't see any way that your proposal makes the bibliography aspect of reports easier. If anything, it makes it more difficult.

>Concerning your proposal, it is not bad, but some issues related to what I
>mentioned then:
>* many double references. See the census tutorial on wiki: scratchpad is used
>for making identical references! So, you should merge identical references in
>an output,  or it quickly becomes ugly and comical, eg:
>
>1.1984 Monty University Yearbook; Monty University Yearbook Committee
>a.    p. 22
>b.    p. 22
>c.    p. 22
>d.    p. 22
>e.    p. 22
>f.    p. 22

I thought of that. I compare the source references and if one already exists with the same content, I don't add a second one. So in your example, "1.a" would appear in the report 6 times and the "p. 22" source ref would only be in the bibilography once.

>* You normally reference a source as follows: John [1] or John [1 pag.
>22].

This is absolutely true in academic research (APA or MLA style). But in genealogy you don't always have page numbers. Information is often from census information or microfilm categories. So in that case, there might be more than just a page number to be included in the citation. This method avoids having long references in the text.

>You
>don't have :
>3.    www.softwareengineersrus.com; An online list of software engineers
>a.    Edwin is listed in three categories: publishing, manufacturing, and
>graphics.; 2003-12-12

>This 3.a is more like a footnote to a text about Edwin. In a report of
>30 pages
>having this in the Endnote section is of little use. Again, this is the
>problem
>of the sourceref object, which as it is now gives the impression you
>should put
>logical deductions in the sourceref. This however gives very awkward
>situations
>when you try to list the sources seperately of the object containing the
>sourceref.

This is neither a note about Edwin nor a logical deduction. It is information about which sections of the source information was found about Edwin. I typed it in the "text" field in the source ref. We could choose to leave it out, but it could include valuable information necessary for someone else to retrace the steps of the original researcher.

>My suggestion, as before, would be: work out a workable workflow on how
>to work
>with sources, the present one just is no good for serious stuff. Document that
>and work the interface reports around this. Trying to fix a broken design by
>redoing the reports will only help people who use the broken design in a
>specific way, and will leave the people doing it another way in the cold.

Again, everything I saw about your proposal added complexity. There is no way it will make this job easier.

Thanks for your feedback!

~Brian




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Re: Bibliography in reports (display of source information)

jerome
In reply to this post by Brian Matherly
Brian,

> For each source reference, I list the source once. Each reference is listed after the source. Sources are numbered while references are lettered. So a source reference is identified as a number and letter (eg 2.b). In this experiment, I display the source title, author and publication information. For each reference, I display the page, date and text. If a reference does not have any useful information, I don't display any reference information and only cite the source with a number.
> See the attached file for an example.

sound good, for me.

> Is there any standard for showing sources in genealogy?

standard and genealogy !!! :-D

> So a source reference is identified as a number and letter (eg 2.b)

that does not shock me

> but they don't really fit well with the way data is stored in GEDCOM files.

I don't follow GEDCOM for seizure on source, I prefer using note for
source data instead of TEXT. It is more easy for management ...
As long as the data are not lost.

If you want I can find a list of forum which explain you, why sometimes
it is necessary to use a text editor so that your data are imported at
the good place !!! Most program have a custom source/media management.

But did you improve the displaying method or the storage ?




Brian Matherly a écrit :

> Duncan has been making a ruckus lately about the display of source information in reports. I tried an experiment just to see if I could improve things. Here is what I came up with.
>
> For each source reference, I list the source once. Each reference is listed after the source. Sources are numbered while references are lettered. So a source reference is identified as a number and letter (eg 2.b). In this experiment, I display the source title, author and publication information. For each reference, I display the page, date and text. If a reference does not have any useful information, I don't display any reference information and only cite the source with a number.
>
> See the attached file for an example.
>
> Here are my questions:
>
> Is this a good way to show sources?
> Is there a better way?
> Is there any standard for showing sources in genealogy? I tried looking into various styles that are used for research (APA, MLA), but they don't really fit well with the way data is stored in GEDCOM files.
>
> Feedback would be appreciated.
>
> ~Brian

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Re: Bibliography in reports (display of source information)

jerome
In reply to this post by bm-5
> Trying to fix a broken design by redoing the reports will only help people who use the broken design in a specific way, and will leave the people doing it another way in the cold.

Maybe, you should forget the (old) census tutorial model !!!

With this type a model nothing seems to be broken :)

Source reference will be displayed on improved reports but what is about
repository reference on source ?

> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
> <!DOCTYPE database PUBLIC "-//GRAMPS//DTD GRAMPS XML 1.1.3//EN"
> "http://gramps-project.org/xml/1.1.3/grampsxml.dtd">
> <database xmlns="http://gramps-project.org/xml/1.1.3/">
>   <header>
>     <created date="2007-05-20" version="2.2.7-1"/>
>     <researcher>
>     </researcher>
>   </header>
>   <events>
>     <event id="E0000" handle="_abaa318b6d61a120c1b" change="1179672438">
>       <type>Birth</type>
>       <dateval val="1845" type="about"/>
>       <place hlink="_abaa31688b11e7d1526"/>
>       <sourceref hlink="_abaa371c73f5a827b6f">
>         <spage>17/27</spage>
>         <dateval val="1881-04-03"/>
>       </sourceref>
>     </event>
>     <event id="E0001" handle="_abaa342890d322922f7" change="1179672364">
>       <type>Census</type>
>       <daterange start="1871" stop="1881"/>
>       <place hlink="_abaa340f64a3aa3010e"/>
>       <sourceref hlink="_abaa371c73f5a827b6f">
>         <spage>17/27</spage>
>         <dateval val="1881-04-03"/>
>       </sourceref>
>     </event>
>   </events>
>   <people>
>     <person id="I0000" handle="_abaa31d494e56aba1c1" change="1179672440">
>       <gender>M</gender>
>       <name type="Birth Name">
>         <first>Martin</first>
>         <last>John</last>
>       </name>
>       <eventref hlink="_abaa318b6d61a120c1b" role="Primary"/>
>       <eventref hlink="_abaa342890d322922f7" role="Primary"/>
>     </person>
>   </people>
>   <sources>
>     <source id="S0000" handle="_abaa371c73f5a827b6f" change="1179672436">
>       <stitle>Wednesbury Census between 1871 and 1881</stitle>
>       <sauthor>UK Governement</sauthor>
>       <spubinfo>www.ancestv.co.uk</spubinfo>
>       <reporef hlink="_abaa3714e242ea05aee" callno="RG 11/2854" medium="Card"/>
>     </source>
>   </sources>
>   <places>
>     <placeobj id="P0000" handle="_abaa31688b11e7d1526" change="1179671725">
>       <ptitle>Wednesbury Staffordshire</ptitle>
>       <location city="Wednesbury" parish="Staffordshire" country="UK"/>
>     </placeobj>
>     <placeobj id="P0001" handle="_abaa340f64a3aa3010e" change="1179671913">
>       <ptitle>Wednesbury Staffordshire, Hope Terrace 17</ptitle>
>       <location street="Hope Terrace 17" city="Wednesbury" parish="Staffordshire" country="UK"/>
>     </placeobj>
>   </places>
>   <repositories>
>     <repository id="R0000" handle="_abaa3714e242ea05aee" change="0">
>       <rname>Civil Parish Wednesbury</rname>
>       <type>Library</type>
>     </repository>
>   </repositories>
> </database>


I used ScratchPad on source reference, main and shared data are pasted.


       
Also, thank you Alex for his assistance, when I was blocked to list my
data on sources/repositories ...
http://developers.gramps-project.org/tiki-index.php?page=RepositoryReport

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Re: Bibliography in reports (display of source information)

Brian Matherly
In reply to this post by Brian Matherly
Jerome,
>But did you improve the displaying method or the storage ?

Excellent question. I should have been more clear. I'm not proposing any change to the storage nor GUI display of source information. The only thing I am proposing to change is how we display source information in reports.


~Brian



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Re: Bibliography in reports (display of source information)

jerome
> The only thing I am proposing to change is how we display source information in reports.

Then you should not care/pay attention to GEDCOM, it is a GRAMPS issue
for displaying his data ;)

For the style, I like mixtures italic/small/normal characters and comas
on references. In fact, endnotes are only quotations but more developed,
no ? And this may avoid a too formatted list !!!
But I do not know if there is a standard for us, and I am not sure you
will be able to separate data of the style for all supported formats ?

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Re: Bibliography in reports (display of source information)

Brian Matherly
In reply to this post by Brian Matherly
>> The only thing I am proposing to change is how we display source information in reports.
>
>Then you should not care/pay attention to GEDCOM, it is a GRAMPS issue
>for displaying his data ;)

Good point. Let me explain. The Gramps storage and display of sources is based loosely on the GEDCOM standard. With that constraint in mind, it is difficult to map the data that Gramps stores into a strict APA format.

Read about APA format here: http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/560/01/

Here is one example. In APA style, you list each reference in the text using the (Author, page#) format. But in Gramps, there is no explicit page number field, it is "volume/page". I have used this field like this before: "Volume 51, Issue 4, page 22". That wouldn't conform to the APA style very well.

Here is another example. In APA style, you list the publishing date of each source. In Gramps, sources have the following fields: Title, Author, and Publication Information. I presume you would put the date in the Publication Information field. But there is no good way to extract a date from it to be used in the reports.

Here is another example. In Gramps, each source reference has a date field. I have no idea how that could be mapped into an APA formatted reference as APA requires the data of publication of the source, not the reference.

>For the style, I like mixtures italic/small/normal characters and comas
>on references. In fact, endnotes are only quotations but more developed,
>no ? And this may avoid a too formatted list !!!
>But I do not know if there is a standard for us, and I am not sure you
>will be able to separate data of the style for all supported formats ?

APA is one of many standards that define how to do this. And it could be done in Gramps within the capacity that we can use the fields provided by Gramps. Like I already explained, the publishing date of a source is not readily available. So it can not be formatted.

Like I already said, I certainly don't have this figured out. I don't know if genealogists use APA format or some other format. Does anyone have any example reports from other genealogy programs, or professional genealogical societies that we could look at?

~Brian




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Re: Bibliography in reports (display of source information)

bm-5
In reply to this post by Brian Matherly
Ok,

first, if you look in the TODO on 2.3, you'll see we decided on removing the
text field in sourceref. So please, don't start to use it know. The present
text field will become a note with a still to determine type (I would choose
transcript). The reason is that with multiple notes implemented in 2.3 having
both text and notes tabs looks stupid, plus, we shouldn't encourage people to
add text of a source in sourceref anyway (the GEDCOM says the same by
the way).

Second, it's easy to say my sourceref proposal is too complex without
elaborating. It's even stranger to then see you suggest to try to solve in
software what I would design into the database (that is, removing doubles in
sourceref from reports).

Should you reread my proposal, you would see I suggest to add full publication
data to source, and ordering of sourceref based on number/section/page/log
date.  That would be handy for refereeing.

Concerning the art of refereeing, looking at my genealogical organization, I
would not take whatever they use to be a standard! They just work in a void,
everybody using the style their word processor comes with. It would be more
correct to look at academic research on sources, and they use the standard
refereeing style.

See eg http://www.historiaeninformatica.org/11_1/03.htm, at the bottom
references. General in this: references do *not* contain information which is
on the level of sourceref.

If you do want to output sourceref information in a report, I would
suggest the
following:

object -- sourceref <-- source

when listing object in a report, you add a link to source via inline [1]
notation. This links to a reference section containing only information as
found in the source object.
If the sourceref object is nonempty and containing information you want on the
report, use a footnote: in the text you add a link to the footnote via a
superscript number, in the footnote is represented information from the
sourceref obejct, and an inline reference like [1] is given to the source at
the end of the report.

However, I would not print out to much of the sourceref object. Please, reread
my proposal on this: sourceref is replaced by subsource. This allows to only
print correct reference in the reports (publication info is known). For
detailed reports, the report can end with a detailed source section, listing
all used subsources and their information.

I fail to see what is complex in this proposal. Actually, this entire
discussion
plainly shows the present design not working. Fixing that is the way to go.

Benny

> Benny,
>
>> My source/sourceref discussion made clear there are quite some problems with
>> this in GRAMPS.
>>
>> It would be nice to agree on my proposal and work towards that :-) It would
>> simplify things.
>
> I don't see any way that your proposal makes the bibliography aspect
> of reports easier. If anything, it makes it more difficult.
>
>> Concerning your proposal, it is not bad, but some issues related to what I
>> mentioned then:
>> * many double references. See the census tutorial on wiki:
>> scratchpad is used
>> for making identical references! So, you should merge identical
>> references in
>> an output,  or it quickly becomes ugly and comical, eg:
>>
>> 1.1984 Monty University Yearbook; Monty University Yearbook Committee
>> a.    p. 22
>> b.    p. 22
>> c.    p. 22
>> d.    p. 22
>> e.    p. 22
>> f.    p. 22
>
> I thought of that. I compare the source references and if one already
> exists with the same content, I don't add a second one. So in your
> example, "1.a" would appear in the report 6 times and the "p. 22"
> source ref would only be in the bibilography once.
>
>> * You normally reference a source as follows: John [1] or John [1 pag.
>> 22].
>
> This is absolutely true in academic research (APA or MLA style). But
> in genealogy you don't always have page numbers. Information is often
> from census information or microfilm categories. So in that case,
> there might be more than just a page number to be included in the
> citation. This method avoids having long references in the text.
>
>> You
>> don't have :
>> 3.    www.softwareengineersrus.com; An online list of software engineers
>> a.    Edwin is listed in three categories: publishing, manufacturing, and
>> graphics.; 2003-12-12
>
>> This 3.a is more like a footnote to a text about Edwin. In a report of
>> 30 pages
>> having this in the Endnote section is of little use. Again, this is the
>> problem
>> of the sourceref object, which as it is now gives the impression you
>> should put
>> logical deductions in the sourceref. This however gives very awkward
>> situations
>> when you try to list the sources seperately of the object containing the
>> sourceref.
>
> This is neither a note about Edwin nor a logical deduction. It is
> information about which sections of the source information was found
> about Edwin. I typed it in the "text" field in the source ref. We
> could choose to leave it out, but it could include valuable
> information necessary for someone else to retrace the steps of the
> original researcher.
>
>> My suggestion, as before, would be: work out a workable workflow on how
>> to work
>> with sources, the present one just is no good for serious stuff.
>> Document that
>> and work the interface reports around this. Trying to fix a broken design by
>> redoing the reports will only help people who use the broken design in a
>> specific way, and will leave the people doing it another way in the cold.
>
> Again, everything I saw about your proposal added complexity. There
> is no way it will make this job easier.
>
> Thanks for your feedback!
>
> ~Brian
>
>
>
>
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Re: Bibliography in reports (display of source information)

bm-5
In reply to this post by jerome
Quoting Jérôme <[hidden email]>:

>> many double references. See the census tutorial on wiki: scratchpad
>> is used for making identical references!
>
> Census tutorial was generate for 2.0.x ...
> GRAMPS 2.2.x introduces a new source reference on repositorie.

Jerome, nothing in the working of the census example has changed in
moving from
2.0.x to 2.2.x. Although the tutorial is outdated in that the screens have
changed, the workflow today would be exactly the same.

Adding of repository has changed nothing to this, eg, the census data is fo
und
on rootsweb and in your local library: two repositories where you can find
the
census source

>
> I just move manually most of my previous sources on this new source
> reference after 2.0/2.2 migration !!!
>
>> on how to work with sources, the present one just is no good for
>> serious stuff.
>
> To update "How to enter census in GRAMPS" tutorial ?
> http://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Recording_UK_Census_
data

Feel free to update, but only the screens would need to change. The
text is only
in details outdated.

Benny

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Re: Bibliography in reports (display of source information)

Brian Matherly
In reply to this post by Brian Matherly
Benny,

Thanks for your response.

I should explain that I do not believe that source storage, display, and work flow is within my sphere of influence. By that, I mean that I don't have the expertise, knowledge, inspiration, motivation, or gumption to change the way Gramps handles sources. The only way that I feel I can contribute is by changing the way Gramps prints the currently existing source information in reports. I have a lot of respect for your proposal. What I don't have is an opinion about it - mostly because I am ignorant of the whole subject. Surely there is someone more qualified than I to make that determination. So I elect to stand on the sidelines and watch the experts figure that part out.

>first, if you look in the TODO on 2.3, you'll see we decided on removing the
>text field in sourceref. So please, don't start to use it know. The present
>text field will become a note with a still to determine type (I would choose
>transcript). The reason is that with multiple notes implemented in 2.3 having
>both text and notes tabs looks stupid, plus, we shouldn't encourage people to
>add text of a source in sourceref anyway (the GEDCOM says the same by
>the way).

That's good feedback. Based on your comments, I think I'll not display the text information (for source references) in the reports. I don't use that field for anything, anyway.

>Second, it's easy to say my sourceref proposal is too complex without
>elaborating. It's even stranger to then see you suggest to try to solve in
>software what I would design into the database (that is, removing doubles in
>sourceref from reports).

I'm not trying to solve any problems that exist with respect to how sources are designed into the database. I'm just trying display what we have better.

>Should you reread my proposal, you would see I suggest to add full publication
>data to source, and ordering of sourceref based on number/section/page/log
>date.  That would be handy for refereeing.

I certainly can't argue with that. See my previous comments about ignorance and not having an opinion.

>Concerning the art of refereeing, looking at my genealogical organization, I
>would not take whatever they use to be a standard! They just work in a void,
>everybody using the style their word processor comes with. It would be more
>correct to look at academic research on sources, and they use the standard
>refereeing style.
>
>See eg http://www.historiaeninformatica.org/11_1/03.htm, at the bottom
>references. General in this: references do *not* contain information which is
>on the level of sourceref.

This is also valuable. What I seem to be hearing from you and others is that genealogists don't seem to generally follow any standard for their documentation. Perhaps we should just choose the APA format as our ultimate goal and work toward that.

>If you do want to output sourceref information in a report, I would
>suggest the
>following:
>
>object -- sourceref <-- source
>
>when listing object in a report, you add a link to source via inline [1]
>notation. This links to a reference section containing only information as
>found in the source object.
>If the sourceref object is nonempty and containing information you want on the
>report, use a footnote: in the text you add a link to the footnote via a
>superscript number, in the footnote is represented information from the
>sourceref obejct, and an inline reference like [1] is given to the source at
>the end of the report.

Using inline notation (instead of endnotes as we use now) is starting to look appealing. This would conform more closely to the APA format.

>However, I would not print out to much of the sourceref object. Please, reread
>my proposal on this: sourceref is replaced by subsource. This allows to only
>print correct reference in the reports (publication info is known). For
>detailed reports, the report can end with a detailed source section, listing
>all used subsources and their information.

>From this, might I deduce that I could also ignore the date field in the existing source ref? That would really make things easier as all that is left is the page field. Using only the page field would make inline notation even more appealing.

>I fail to see what is complex in this proposal. Actually, this entire
>discussion
>plainly shows the present design not working. Fixing that is the way to go.

Again, no opinion from me.

Thanks again for all your comments. I sure wish someone could just come along and say "True genealogy requires that you use the XYZ formatting standard". But it doesn't look like that is going to happen.

~Brian



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Re: Bibliography in reports (display of source information)

Brian Matherly
In reply to this post by Brian Matherly
Here is a report generated by Genbox: http://genbox.com/reports/pdf/descnarr1.pdf

It uses endnotes for source references and a separate Bibliography section for the actual source information.

Is this a desirable format for Gramps to adopt for displaying sources?

~Brian





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Re: Bibliography in reports (display of source information)

jerome
In reply to this post by bm-5
> Jerome, nothing in the working of the census example has changed in moving from 2.0.x to 2.2.x.

Right, you can still work with this on 2.2.x ...
But if now, I need to seize this census, I will use the RepoRef on
source with the call number !!!

<source id="S0000" handle="_abaa371c73f5a827b6f" change="1179672436">
        <stitle>Wednesbury Census between 1871 and 1881</stitle>
        <sauthor>UK Governement</sauthor>
        <spubinfo>www.ancestru.co.uk</spubinfo>
        <reporef hlink="_abaa3714e242ea05aee" callno="RG 11/2854"
medium="Card"/>

instead of adding this data to sourceref !!!

Every one has its own manner of seizing the data.
For my part, I imported gedcoms, thinking that "GRAMPS should make this
...", should "add that ..."
Then finally, I spent one day to clean my data, to have a certain coherence.

> I presume you would put the date in the Publication Information field. But there is no good way to extract a date from it to be used in the reports.

Genealogical Research and Analysis Management Programming System should
be flexible and to leave the choice for the user !!!
An option for adding SourceRef, why not ?
But it is necessary to think of those which undergo the lack of
Interoperability/Standard in genealogy ...

> Like I already explained, the publishing date of a source is not readily available
       
That makes me think:
In Genealogy, what must we put in date field on SourceRef, the date of
publication (1875) or the date of discovered source (2007) !!!

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Re: Bibliography in reports (display of source information)

Stefan Björk
In reply to this post by Brian Matherly
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hello Brian and all others,

I'm pleased to see that a discussion on how sources should be printed in
reports have arised. I agree with Brian that this needs some
improvement, and I would like to remind you of an old feature request of
mine: http://bugs.gramps-project.org/view.php?id=556.

> It uses endnotes for source references and a separate Bibliography
> section for the actual source information.
>
> Is this a desirable format for Gramps to adopt for displaying
> sources?

I really like it and it is much better than my feature request above.
Source references has the purpose of pointing out where information and
facts come from. Anyone should be able to track down the sources, which
means that it is important to distinguish which bits and pieces of
information that is being referenced, and where to find the sources of
this information.

Stefan
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Re: Bibliography in reports (display of source information)

Stefan Björk
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

> I really like it and it is much better than my feature request above.

Ah, well, at second thought, maybe we don't need footnotes everywhere,
as in Brians example. For example, I think it's redundant to add
footnotes to lists of children when they are mentioned as persons
elsewhere in the document.

However, a true advantage would be the possibility to add sources to
text comments (like on page 3 of Brians example).

Stefan

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Re: Bibliography in reports (display of source information)

Brian Matherly
In reply to this post by Brian Matherly
>> Like I already explained, the publishing date of a source is not readily available
>  
>That makes me think:
>In Genealogy, what must we put in date field on SourceRef, the date of
>publication (1875) or the date of discovered source (2007) !!!

I've been wondering the same thing for a long time. If anyone has any insight, please share!

~Brian




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Re: Bibliography in reports (display of source information)

bm-5
As I understand it, GEDCOM date in sourceref means to do the following:

A source is ag: baptize acts 1902-1912. Then, in a baptize record (same for
marriage, death), the individual acts are numbered according to date, so:
"1910-05-02, baptized John, son of ....."
So the date is the log date of the event hapening as written down in
the source.
So date is there to allow you to find the birth record in the source, the same
as page helps you to find the relevant section in a book (the old
records don't
have page numbers and numbering is often something added by present day
researchers, not by the person who wrote the record). So date and page in
sourceref serve the same purpose.

Furthermore, remember, sourceref is about how you use the source, so
publication
date/info of the source *does not belong there*. That should go in the source
object, the same for text, eg: "Published by John Whiley and Co., 2005".
Sourceref is about how to work with the source to find the info of the person
you are looking at in this source.

In present day design, one would not add page or date to eg the person object,
one would link directly to the correct position within the source. The linked
structure in GEDCOM however only links to source, so they needed to
refine that
with the sourceref included in person object.

Benny


Quoting Brian Matherly <[hidden email]>:

>>> Like I already explained, the publishing date of a source is not
>>> readily available
>>
>> That makes me think:
>> In Genealogy, what must we put in date field on SourceRef, the date of
>> publication (1875) or the date of discovered source (2007) !!!
>
> I've been wondering the same thing for a long time. If anyone has any
> insight, please share!
>
> ~Brian
>



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Re: Bibliography in reports (display of source information)

bm-5
In reply to this post by Brian Matherly
Quoting Brian Matherly <[hidden email]>:

> Here is a report generated by Genbox:
> http://genbox.com/reports/pdf/descnarr1.pdf
>
> It uses endnotes for source references and a separate Bibliography
> section for the actual source information.
>
> Is this a desirable format for Gramps to adopt for displaying sources?

It is nice, but I would give the bibliography numbers too. Then the endnotes
should state the bibliography entry they link too.

Also empty sourceref must be handled, which can only be done by making the
bibliograpy numbered. Actually, this proposal is like mine with footnotes, but
instead of footnotes, the notes are collected in an endnotes section.

This endnotes section is only useful in some detailed reports, for more
general
reports it should be dropped, only keeping bibliograpy in my opinion (with
perhaps the option to also drop that for an even shorter report).

Benny

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Re: Bibliography in reports (display of source information)

bm-5
In reply to this post by Stefan Björk
Quoting Stefan Björk <[hidden email]>:

>> I really like it and it is much better than my feature request above.
>
> Ah, well, at second thought, maybe we don't need footnotes everywhere,
> as in Brians example. For example, I think it's redundant to add
> footnotes to lists of children when they are mentioned as persons
> elsewhere in the document.
>
> However, a true advantage would be the possibility to add sources to
> text comments (like on page 3 of Brians example).
>
> Stefan


I reread the report after this a bit more carefully, and it looks a bit
overdone
indeed: many doubles, some endnotes look like bibliography, some bibliograp
hy
info looks more like repositories, ...

Anyway, I did not see sources linked to text comments, I think they are all
sources linked to events/attributes with eg notes. I think that is the corr
ect
way of working, one can hardly start to add sources for every word one type
s.
Remember, notes are just that: notes. They are not meant to be literature.
Literature should be reserved for the text of sources.

If you really make a long nice text based on some sources, I would suggest
you
make a new source record, and add your text to that. This is called
academically a tertiary source. Eg: Source: My notes. Then add a note to th
e
source with the sources you consulted. You could do a feature request to ad
d a
source tab to a source for this use, but don't expect a quick implementatio
n.

If you want to copy a piece of a source to a note with eg a person, you sho
uld
actually add the piece of text of the source to the source object, and
link the
person to this source, indicating in the sourceref where in the source the
relevant part is, and not make a note linked to person with this text.

Benny

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