Bibliography in reports (display of source information)

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Re: Bibliography in reports (display of source information)

Stefan Björk
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Brian Matherly skrev:
>>> Like I already explained, the publishing date of a source is not readily available
>>  
>> That makes me think:
>> In Genealogy, what must we put in date field on SourceRef, the date of
>> publication (1875) or the date of discovered source (2007) !!!
>
> I've been wondering the same thing for a long time. If anyone has any insight, please share!

The obvious answer (at least, it is obvious to me) is to use the date of
publication. Source references serve the purpose of pointing out the
source to anyone interested, and the date of publication helps finding
the source. The date of discovery seem quite irrelevant from this point
of view.

Stefan

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Re: Bibliography in reports (display of source information)

jerome
> Source references serve the purpose of pointing out the source to anyone interested, and the date of publication helps finding the source.

Then we should move the field from SourceReference to Source (with
Title, Author, etc...)
Date of publication will be the same for all related object !!!

> The date of discovery seem quite irrelevant from this point of view

I will add a date field on RepoRef (with Call number and media type)
Also, a place field could be an other improvement.
OK, too many fields may lose user. But you could have the same source on
differents dates of search. Is it useful ?

Sources exists with their title, author, date of publication and data.
Repositories will change/move and call number are not eternal, we need
to fix them in time. Publication place may be different as event place
or repository place for search.

Other exemple: birth/death date on certificate versus certificate date
on repository. Dates are often close, but not always ...



� a écrit :

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Brian Matherly skrev:
>>>> Like I already explained, the publishing date of a source is not readily available
>>>  
>>> That makes me think:
>>> In Genealogy, what must we put in date field on SourceRef, the date of
>>> publication (1875) or the date of discovered source (2007) !!!
>> I've been wondering the same thing for a long time. If anyone has any insight, please share!
>
> The obvious answer (at least, it is obvious to me) is to use the date of
> publication. Source references serve the purpose of pointing out the
> source to anyone interested, and the date of publication helps finding
> the source. The date of discovery seem quite irrelevant from this point
> of view.
>
> Stefan
>
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--
Jérôme Rapinat

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Re: Bibliography in reports (display of source information)

bm-5
Quoting Jérôme <[hidden email]>:

> I will add a date field on RepoRef (with Call number and media type)
> Also, a place field could be an other improvement.
> OK, too many fields may lose user. But you could have the same source on
> differents dates of search. Is it useful ?

???
repository is a place where sources are kept! In reporef there is no need o
f
place or type or date.

Am I missing something?

Benny

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Re: Bibliography in reports (display of source information)

jerome
>> I will add a date field on RepoRef (with Call number and media type)
>> Also, a place field could be an other improvement.
>> OK, too many fields may lose user. But you could have the same source on
>> differents dates of search. Is it useful ?
>
> ???
> repository is a place where sources are kept! In reporef there is no need o
> f
> place or type or date.
>
> Am I missing something?
>
> Benny

This will be a feature request...

GRAMPS uses RepoRef with Sources Objects (his call number and type on
repository).

If you have a (quote ?) or book reference/number, this will be a storage
on RepoRef as call number on repository.

And if you search a source on a repository, we might add "search
information" : date of search and place where source take place.

Ex:
1. today (22/05/2007), I find a birth certificate (source) on a repository.
2. Source classified here since 1950.
3. The repository is county archive but the certificate was written
somewhere else on a previous date (place: ploumnelherison - date: 1823)
4. I go to ploumnelherison and get a copy of certificate


Source : birth certificate -1823
Repository :
county archives, address, call number
city of ploumnelherison, address, call number

will be

Repository :
county archives, address, (22/05/2007), call number (1950->2007), source
take place: ploumnelherison
city of ploumnelherison, address, (22/05/2007), call number
(1823->2007), source take place: ploumnelherison

If in one century, somebody connects my data, then his research will be
simplified :)
And it is easier to begin again if there is an error ;)

I agree, "source take place" should be the event place and GRAMPS is not
an certificate editor but as genealogists we need all source
informations !!! I always have informations which I could seize in
GRAMPS (data key-value) but that I will not make ...

That must make seven years that I make genealogy as an amateur and I
don't remember my first sources, those which one raises partially
because we are very glad to find something :(

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Re: Bibliography in reports (display of source information)

bm-5
Jerome,

I understand where you want to go to, but requesting new fields is a big st
ep.
In my view new fields are only really useful if you will need to filter/sea
rch
on them.

What you want is very specialized, and there will be little reason to
filter on
it. So why not add that information as a note? With multiple notes in 2.3 y
ou
can have a specific note-type for that.

Furthermore, for the example you give, you should make two
repositories, one for
the repository where you found it originally, and one for  
ploumnelherison where
you get the certificate. The source is then added in both repositories, and
there is no need to add place (is in the repository address) or date (you c
an
add that in a note).

If you really, really want to know when you did some action, you can
add that as
events to yourself actually (event: look up source, go to work, mail
gramps list
;-D ...)

Benny

Quoting Jérôme <[hidden email]>:

>>> I will add a date field on RepoRef (with Call number and media type)
>>> Also, a place field could be an other improvement.
>>> OK, too many fields may lose user. But you could have the same source o
n
>>> differents dates of search. Is it useful ?
>>
>> ???
>> repository is a place where sources are kept! In reporef there is no nee
d o

>> f
>> place or type or date.
>>
>> Am I missing something?
>>
>> Benny
>
> This will be a feature request...
>
> GRAMPS uses RepoRef with Sources Objects (his call number and type on
> repository).
>
> If you have a (quote ?) or book reference/number, this will be a storage
> on RepoRef as call number on repository.
>
> And if you search a source on a repository, we might add "search
> information" : date of search and place where source take place.
>
> Ex:
> 1. today (22/05/2007), I find a birth certificate (source) on a repositor
y.

> 2. Source classified here since 1950.
> 3. The repository is county archive but the certificate was written
> somewhere else on a previous date (place: ploumnelherison - date: 1823)
> 4. I go to ploumnelherison and get a copy of certificate
>
>
> Source : birth certificate -1823
> Repository :
> county archives, address, call number
> city of ploumnelherison, address, call number
>
> will be
>
> Repository :
> county archives, address, (22/05/2007), call number (1950->2007), source
> take place: ploumnelherison
> city of ploumnelherison, address, (22/05/2007), call number
> (1823->2007), source take place: ploumnelherison
>
> If in one century, somebody connects my data, then his research will be
> simplified :)
> And it is easier to begin again if there is an error ;)
>
> I agree, "source take place" should be the event place and GRAMPS is not
> an certificate editor but as genealogists we need all source
> informations !!! I always have informations which I could seize in
> GRAMPS (data key-value) but that I will not make ...
>
> That must make seven years that I make genealogy as an amateur and I
> don't remember my first sources, those which one raises partially
> because we are very glad to find something :(
>
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> Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take
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Re: Bibliography in reports (display of source information)

Stefan Björk
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Jerome,

> Then we should move the field from SourceReference to Source (with
> Title, Author, etc...)
> Date of publication will be the same for all related object !!!

In my database, this is simply part of the publication field, such as
"Bonnier, Stockholm, 1923".

Stefan
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Re: Bibliography in reports (display of source information)

jerome
Stefan,

>> Date of publication will be the same for all related object !!!
> In my database, this is simply part of the publication field, such as
> "Bonnier, Stockholm, 1923".

Then you don't use GRAMPS date field on SourceRef.
+1 ;)

Brian,

> there is no need to add place (is in the repository address)

Place will be the the place where the source was written before storage
on repository. True, this could be sometimes, an other duplicated entry
(=place event).

> In my view new fields are only really useful if you will need to filter/search on them.

Currently, there is some fields without filter ability (date on
SourceRef, comments, volume/page, etc ...)

To filter sources having the same place could be like to filter event
places but for search !!!

> So why not add that information as a note? With multiple notes in 2.3 you can have a specific note-type for that

It is awaited :)

> Furthermore, for the example you give, you should make two repositories, one for the repository where you found it originally, and one for  ploumnelherison where you get the certificate.

Sorry, I made a large spelling mistake ...

Source : birth certificate -1823
Repository :
county archives, address, call number
city of ploumnelherison, address, call number

<=>

Source : birth certificate -1823
Repositor*ies* :
county archives, address, call number
city of ploumnelherison, address, call number


> If you really, really want to know when you did some action, you can add that as events to yourself actually (event: look up source, go to work, mail gramps list ;-D ...)

Yes, that's a solution ...
I should add a source on my events ?
S0001- today - Jerome's search on county archives
       
OK, I start to implement a calendar/agenda into GRAMPS editor !!! ;)


Seriously, this is a complicated subject :
*Bibliography in reports (display of source information)*

Maybe users need 'tooltips' on source fields. It could have a mixture if
they did not keep same logic for all seizures :(

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Re: Bibliography in reports (display of source information)

jerome
In reply to this post by Stefan Björk
Benny,

Sorry, I confused you with brian!!!


------------------------------------------------------------


Stefan,

>> Date of publication will be the same for all related object !!!
> In my database, this is simply part of the publication field, such as
> "Bonnier, Stockholm, 1923".

Then you don't use GRAMPS date field on SourceRef.
+1 ;)

Benny,

> there is no need to add place (is in the repository address)

Place will be the the place where the source was written before storage
on repository. True, this could be sometimes, an other duplicated entry
(=place event).

> In my view new fields are only really useful if you will need to filter/search on them.

Currently, there is some fields without filter ability (date on
SourceRef, comments, volume/page, etc ...)

To filter sources having the same place could be like to filter event
places but for search !!!

> So why not add that information as a note? With multiple notes in 2.3 you can have a specific note-type for that

It is awaited :)

> Furthermore, for the example you give, you should make two repositories, one for the repository where you found it originally, and one for  ploumnelherison where you get the certificate.

Sorry, I made a large spelling mistake ...

Source : birth certificate -1823
Repository :
county archives, address, call number
city of ploumnelherison, address, call number

<=>

Source : birth certificate -1823
Repositor*ies* :
county archives, address, call number
city of ploumnelherison, address, call number


> If you really, really want to know when you did some action, you can add that as events to yourself actually (event: look up source, go to work, mail gramps list ;-D ...)

Yes, that's a solution ...
I should add a source on my events ?
S0001- today - Jerome's search on county archives
       
OK, I start to implement a calendar/agenda into GRAMPS editor !!! ;)


Seriously, this is a complicated subject :
*Bibliography in reports (display of source information)*

Maybe users need 'tooltips' on source fields. It could have a mixture if
they did not keep same logic for all seizures :(

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Re: Bibliography in reports (display of source information)

jerome
In reply to this post by jerome
Benny,


> In reporef there is no need of place or type or date.

t0 = first time for source (when source appears)
t1 = date of your search

p0 = place where source take place

cn = call number
ref(t1)= reference for own classification

In my view, most repositories uses : cn(t1) = (t0 + p0)* rf
a physical source or a space-time reference mark ?

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Re: Bibliography in reports (display of source information)

Stefan Björk
In reply to this post by jerome
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> Sorry, I confused you with brian!!!

Velease Bvian!

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Re: Bibliography in reports (display of source information)

jerome
>> Sorry, I confused you with brian!!!
> Velease Bvian!

Forgive me, I post to mailing list :-[
A punishment for sending emails during job ...

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Re: Bibliography in reports (display of source information)

Brian Matherly
In reply to this post by jerome
Benny,

>As I understand it, GEDCOM date in sourceref means to do the following:
>
>A source is ag: baptize acts 1902-1912. Then, in a baptize record (same for
>marriage, death), the individual acts are numbered according to date, so:
>"1910-05-02, baptized John, son of ....."
>So the date is the log date of the event hapening as written down in
>the source.
>So date is there to allow you to find the birth record in the source, the same
>as page helps you to find the relevant section in a book (the old
>records don't
>have page numbers and numbering is often something added by present day
>researchers, not by the person who wrote the record). So date and page in
>sourceref serve the same purpose.
>

Wonderful insight. Thanks for sharing that. I learn something new every day.

>Furthermore, remember, sourceref is about how you use the source, so
>publication
>date/info of the source *does not belong there*. That should go in the source
>object, the same for text, eg: "Published by John Whiley and Co., 2005".
>Sourceref is about how to work with the source to find the info of the person
>you are looking at in this source.

Another excellent point. I agree completely.

~Brian



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Re: Bibliography in reports (display of source information)

bm-5
Quoting Brian Matherly <[hidden email]>:


> Wonderful insight. Thanks for sharing that. I learn something new every day.
>

Glad to be of help.

Actually, GEDCOM provides some fields that gramps has not implemented yet: A
source can have an EVEN tag listing the events that are in a source. Eg
marriage acts would have marriage as event connected to the source, same for
census.
This is again bad design on the part of GEDCOM, the reference tab in GRAMPS of
the source nicely shows already in which events a source is used.

GEDCOM also has a PLAC tag with source, to list the juristiction of a
source, so
eg Source Census of Wales, would be connected to Place 'Wales'. Civil
marriages
of Nashville, would be connected to Nashville. Like that one can find all
sources about a juristiction you use in your research.

The above clearly indicates that GEDCOM is geared towards the following
types of
sources: marriage/birth/death acts and census. As for books, ... these extra
tags have no direct meaning.

Last but not least, source has the GEDCOM attribute TEXT. I find it *very*
annoyinhg that text has been a field in sourceref, while the text field in
source has been left out of gramps. This has created all sorts of
misunderstanding with users, making them use sourceref in the wrong way.
Other tags are also present, see
http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~pmcbride/gedcom/55gcch2.htm#SOURCE_RECORD

Well, another rant about the fact we really need to clean up sources in GRAMPS
and use the GEDCOM standard better, while extending it at the same time :-)

Benny

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