British & Irish counties?

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British & Irish counties?

Ron Johnson
Hi,

In v4.0x and lower, do you put counties like Yorkshire and Monaghan in
Gramps' Place "County" field, or the "State" field?  I ask, because they
seem to have the characteristics of US states rather than US state counties.

Thanks

--
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Re: British & Irish counties?

Brad Rogers
On Sun, 18 Jan 2015 23:45:39 -0600
Ron Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Ron,

>In v4.0x and lower, do you put counties like Yorkshire and Monaghan in
>Gramps' Place "County" field, or the "State" field?  I ask, because
>they seem to have the characteristics of US states rather than US state

I always entered them in the "County" field.  TBH, it makes little
difference though, as there's nothing between "County" and "Country"
akin to "State".  In fact, there's nothing between "County" and
"Country" at all, AFAIAA.

Upgrading to Gramps v4.1, the automated place conversion was handled as well as could be expected.

--
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
You're the psychotic daughter of a psychotic mother
Pure Mania - The Vibrators

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Re: British & Irish counties?

Peter Merchant
Looking through this, from a UK point of view, I think I am going to enter district councils such as Lexden and Tendring in Essex  the 'Location' field. Is that satisfactory do you think?

As a relative newbe I am going to have to rework all my Place information to use these other fields, rather than just the first line as I have been doing. That'l keep me busy for awhile.

Peter M


On 19/01/15 08:12, Brad Rogers wrote:
On Sun, 18 Jan 2015 23:45:39 -0600
Ron Johnson [hidden email] wrote:

Hello Ron,

In v4.0x and lower, do you put counties like Yorkshire and Monaghan in 
Gramps' Place "County" field, or the "State" field?  I ask, because
they seem to have the characteristics of US states rather than US state
I always entered them in the "County" field.  TBH, it makes little
difference though, as there's nothing between "County" and "Country"
akin to "State".  In fact, there's nothing between "County" and
"Country" at all, AFAIAA.

Upgrading to Gramps v4.1, the automated place conversion was handled as well as could be expected.



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Re: British & Irish counties?

ACProctor
In reply to this post by Brad Rogers
The Irish 'province' is closer to a 'state' (e.g. Munster), and in England,
there are 'regions' (e.g. East Midlands) --  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regions_of_England.

Neither of these are used much in identifying a specific place, and
certainly not in postal addresses.

    Tony Proctor

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brad Rogers" <[hidden email]>
To: "Gramps ML" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2015 8:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] British & Irish counties?


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Re: British & Irish counties?

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by Brad Rogers
Locations are supposed to be places within cities/towns.

What's the modern analog of the old Civil Parish?

On 01/19/2015 07:47 AM, PeterMerchant wrote:
Looking through this, from a UK point of view, I think I am going to enter district councils such as Lexden and Tendring in Essex  the 'Location' field. Is that satisfactory do you think?

As a relative newbe I am going to have to rework all my Place information to use these other fields, rather than just the first line as I have been doing. That'l keep me busy for awhile.

Peter M


On 19/01/15 08:12, Brad Rogers wrote:
On Sun, 18 Jan 2015 23:45:39 -0600
Ron Johnson [hidden email] wrote:

Hello Ron,

In v4.0x and lower, do you put counties like Yorkshire and Monaghan in 
Gramps' Place "County" field, or the "State" field?  I ask, because
they seem to have the characteristics of US states rather than US state
I always entered them in the "County" field.  TBH, it makes little
difference though, as there's nothing between "County" and "Country"
akin to "State".  In fact, there's nothing between "County" and
"Country" at all, AFAIAA.

Upgrading to Gramps v4.1, the automated place conversion was handled as well as could be expected.

-- 
My word, man!  Don't you know your quantum statistics?

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Re: British & Irish counties?

Sebastian Schubert
In reply to this post by Peter Merchant
Hi Peter,

you might want to upgrade to 4.1.1 before investing too much time in the
place structure. In the long run, this saves time, I suppose.

Sebastian

On 19/01/15 14:47, PeterMerchant wrote:

> Looking through this, from a UK point of view, I think I am going to
> enter district councils such as Lexden and Tendring in Essex  the
> 'Location' field. Is that satisfactory do you think?
>
> As a relative newbe I am going to have to rework all my Place
> information to use these other fields, rather than just the first line
> as I have been doing. That'l keep me busy for awhile.
>
> Peter M
>
>
> On 19/01/15 08:12, Brad Rogers wrote:
>> On Sun, 18 Jan 2015 23:45:39 -0600
>> Ron Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hello Ron,
>>
>>> In v4.0x and lower, do you put counties like Yorkshire and Monaghan in
>>> Gramps' Place "County" field, or the "State" field?  I ask, because
>>> they seem to have the characteristics of US states rather than US state
>> I always entered them in the "County" field.  TBH, it makes little
>> difference though, as there's nothing between "County" and "Country"
>> akin to "State".  In fact, there's nothing between "County" and
>> "Country" at all, AFAIAA.
>>
>> Upgrading to Gramps v4.1, the automated place conversion was handled as well as could be expected.
>>
>>

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Re: British & Irish counties?

Brad Rogers
In reply to this post by Peter Merchant
On Mon, 19 Jan 2015 13:47:20 +0000
PeterMerchant <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello PeterMerchant,

>Looking through this, from a UK point of view, I think I am going to
>enter district councils such as Lexden and Tendring in Essex  the
>'Location' field. Is that satisfactory do you think?

If it works for you, then it's fine, but....

....you don't say which version of Gramps you're using, but if it's a
version prior to 4.1 it might be an idea to wait before changing all
your places, as they're probably going to need some work after the
upgrade in any case.

The issues of political versus geographic places is probably one of the
reasons that the way places are 'constructed' has changed in 4.1+.  From
here on in, it's possible to add any "Type" you wish, just as can be
done with Events and so on.  Consequently, District, Arrondisement
(a French political division), District Council, British Overseas
Territory, Vessel, etc, etc. all become possible.  You can then arrange
them in any hierarchical order as is required by relevant custom or
politics.

Initially, when the change was mooted, I thought "here we go", and
expected trouble.  The more I work with the system though, the more I
come to understand and appreciate just how powerful it is.

--
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
Every single one of us
Devil Inside - INXS

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Re: British & Irish counties?

Brad Rogers
In reply to this post by ACProctor
On Mon, 19 Jan 2015 14:05:46 -0000
"Tony Proctor" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Tony,

>The Irish 'province' is closer to a 'state' (e.g. Munster), and in

I wasn't aware of the term Province for Eire, so thanks for the info.

>Neither of these are used much in identifying a specific place, and

Which probably explains my ignorance of Provinces in Ireland.  I am
aware of the English regions but, as you've said....

>certainly not in postal addresses.

--
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
Well I don't want you to think I'm being obscene
Fish - The Damned

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Re: British & Irish counties?

Brad Rogers
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
On Mon, 19 Jan 2015 08:10:23 -0600
Ron Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Ron,

>What's the modern analog of the old Civil Parish?

I assume they are still used as where I live has a political unit of
Parish Council.

Also, they're still listed on OS maps.  Not that is evidence of their
use, of course.

--
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
The deadbeats and the dispossessed, the seekers of unlikeliness
Street Of Dreams - The Damned

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Re: British & Irish counties?

Peter Merchant
In reply to this post by Brad Rogers
Ok. I'll look for 4.1 as I am on 4.0.3.1 on Kubuntu.

Thanks,
P.
On 19/01/15 14:17, Brad Rogers wrote:

> On Mon, 19 Jan 2015 13:47:20 +0000
> PeterMerchant <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hello PeterMerchant,
>
>> Looking through this, from a UK point of view, I think I am going to
>> enter district councils such as Lexden and Tendring in Essex  the
>> 'Location' field. Is that satisfactory do you think?
> If it works for you, then it's fine, but....
>
> ....you don't say which version of Gramps you're using, but if it's a
> version prior to 4.1 it might be an idea to wait before changing all
> your places, as they're probably going to need some work after the
> upgrade in any case.
>
>


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Re: British & Irish counties?

Martin Steer-2
In reply to this post by Brad Rogers
On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 02:17:21PM +0000, Brad Rogers wrote:

>Initially, when the change was mooted, I thought "here we go", and
>expected trouble.  The more I work with the system though, the more I
>come to understand and appreciate just how powerful it is.

I haven't thought this through, but I wonder whether the 'enclosure'
metaphor might be problematic, given that in administrative space, at
least, enclosure needn't be transitive, i.e. doesn't imply an extended
hierarchy.

M.



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Re: British & Irish counties?

Brad Rogers
On Tue, 20 Jan 2015 13:19:41 +1100
Martin Steer <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Martin,

>I haven't thought this through, but I wonder whether the 'enclosure'
>metaphor might be problematic, given that in administrative space, at
>least, enclosure needn't be transitive, i.e. doesn't imply an extended
>hierarchy.

I suppose it could be a problem, *until* you realise/discover that any
place can be enclosed by more than one other place.  As an example; I
enclose churches not only with the geographical place in which they
exist (be it village, town or city), but also the Parish they occupy.

--
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
You're the psychotic daughter of a psychotic mother
Pure Mania - The Vibrators

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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GigeNET is offering a free month of service with a new server in Ashburn.
Choose from 2 high performing configs, both with 100TB of bandwidth.
Higher redundancy.Lower latency.Increased capacity.Completely compliant.
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Re: British & Irish counties?

ACProctor
In reply to this post by Martin Steer-2
Good point Martin, and one I only solved for myself last year.

My own places have transitive enclosure, meaning that each level is
completely enclosed within the next entity up the hierarchy. However, I now
support hierarchies of different flavours (such as administrative on a
national or local level). Within a hierarchy of a given type then this
criterion works, and there's no overlap between neighbouring places at a
given level. Since I have an additional mechanism for connecting places in a
non-hierarchical way (e.g. "overlaps with", or "is related to") then it
means I can connect hierarchies of different types when appropriate, such as
when an ecclesiastical parish overlaps with a registration district.

This may sound like a complication but I personally believe that the
majority of this information about places (incl. any historical changes)
should come from a standardised database. End-users cannot be expected to
know, or find, all the relevant information that would make the hierarchies
correct.

    Tony Proctor

----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Steer" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2015 2:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] British & Irish counties?


> On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 02:17:21PM +0000, Brad Rogers wrote:
>
>>Initially, when the change was mooted, I thought "here we go", and
>>expected trouble.  The more I work with the system though, the more I
>>come to understand and appreciate just how powerful it is.
>
> I haven't thought this through, but I wonder whether the 'enclosure'
> metaphor might be problematic, given that in administrative space, at
> least, enclosure needn't be transitive, i.e. doesn't imply an extended
> hierarchy.
>
> M.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> New Year. New Location. New Benefits. New Data Center in Ashburn, VA.
> GigeNET is offering a free month of service with a new server in Ashburn.
> Choose from 2 high performing configs, both with 100TB of bandwidth.
> Higher redundancy.Lower latency.Increased capacity.Completely compliant.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/gigenet
> _______________________________________________
> Gramps-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users 


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Higher redundancy.Lower latency.Increased capacity.Completely compliant.
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Re: British & Irish counties?

Dave Marshall
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
I'm not sure if this is relevant to the discussion or not. I am reading "Tracing Your English and Scottish Ancestors" from http://www.internet-genealogy.com  An article about record offices gave the following information which I have copied and pasted from the PDF.

"COUNTIES (OR SHIRES) have been the main administrative divisions in England for at least a thousand
years. The Anglo-Saxons called them “shires”, and many take their names from the “county town” (administrative center). Among these counties are Gloucestershire,
Leicestershire, Wiltshire (from the old county town
of Wilton) and Hampshire (from Southampton).

Many older counties don’t (or shouldn’t) have the word
“shire” in their names, such as Essex (land of the East
Saxons), Somerset (people of Somerton), Northumberland
(land north of the ,?River Humber), Suffolk (south folk) and
Kent (a name from pre-Roman times). The Normans
introduced the word “county”, but only County Durham
should have the word placed before its name (like all
the counties in Ireland)."
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