Changes to counties and implications for Places

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Changes to counties and implications for Places

Tony Hacche
Another newbie question. This time about the changes to counties over time the the implications for referencing them in Places.

Take Cardiff for example. Prior to 1974 it was in the county of Glamorgan. In 1974 Glamorgan was split into three and Cardiff became part of the county of South Glamorgan.

I have a residence event for Cardiff in 1881 so I created a Places hierarchy as follows ...

Wales > Glamorgan > Cardiff

The event was before 1974 so I went with the older county name.

I now have a residence event in Cardiff for 1986. I noticed that you can add multiple "Enclosed by" locations and assign dates so I modified Cardiff to have the following "Enclosed by" locations ...

Glamorgan County Before 1974
South Glamorgan County After 1974

Is this logic correct or should I have tackled this diffrently?

However, in PLaces I have the following hierarchy ...

Wales > Glamorgan > Cardiff
Wales > South Glamorgan

I guess I was expecting Cardiff to appear in both counties. Although, looking at the references for each county I can see that Cardiff does appear in both, just not in the overall Places screen.

Have I missed something or is this just how it works?

Thanks,

Tony

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Re: Changes to counties and implications for Places

Patrick Gerlier
Heloo Tony,

Le 04/10/2019 à 18:21, Tony Hacche a écrit :

> Another newbie question. This time about the changes to counties over time the the implications for referencing them in Places.
>
> Take Cardiff for example. Prior to 1974 it was in the county of Glamorgan. In 1974 Glamorgan was split into three and Cardiff became part of the county of South Glamorgan.
>
> I have a residence event for Cardiff in 1881 so I created a Places hierarchy as follows ...
>
> Wales > Glamorgan > Cardiff
>
> The event was before 1974 so I went with the older county name.
>
> I now have a residence event in Cardiff for 1986. I noticed that you can add multiple "Enclosed by" locations and assign dates so I modified Cardiff to have the following "Enclosed by" locations ...
>
> Glamorgan County Before 1974
> South Glamorgan County After 1974
>
> Is this logic correct or should I have tackled this diffrently?
This is correct
> However, in PLaces I have the following hierarchy ...
>
> Wales > Glamorgan > Cardiff
> Wales > South Glamorgan
>
> I guess I was expecting Cardiff to appear in both counties. Although, looking at the references for each county I can see that Cardiff does appear in both, just not in the overall Places screen.
>
> Have I missed something or is this just how it works?

In the place screen, when hierarchical view is enabled, places are
listed as their first "Enclosed by" relationship dictates. This is so
because the Cardiff record is unique, even if there are several
historical dependencies.

Since this is only a "technical" view (so that you can comfortably
change the records), it does not really matter. In the reports, the
relationship corresponding to the event date is automatically selected.

In case of multiple "Enclosed by", I prefer not to group places. To
quickly "jump" to a place I use the side filter.

>
> Thanks,
>
> Tony
Regards,
Patrick



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Re: Changes to counties and implications for Places

Brad Rogers
In reply to this post by Tony Hacche
On Fri, 4 Oct 2019 17:21:13 +0100
Tony Hacche <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Tony,

>Glamorgan County Before 1974
>South Glamorgan County After 1974
>
>Is this logic correct or should I have tackled this diffrently?

Broadly, yes(1).  However, if dates overlap like you give above, Gramps
will display a question mark (under certain circumstances) to demonstrate
it can't resolve a conflict.  So, you would have to do:

Glamorgan County Before 1974
South Glamorgan County After 1973

However, in this case, you can be even more explicit:

Glamorgan       County Before 1 April 1974
South Glamorgan County After 31 Mar 1974

(1)  I always use Day, Month, Year when date ranging enclosures, so I'm
not 100% certain how Gramps handles a year only date, but suspect it'll
do so without problems.

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Re: Changes to counties and implications for Places

Dave Scheipers
In reply to this post by Tony Hacche
And to add another layer to the place hierarchy, sometimes the name of
place changes names.

The same date structure can be added to the Alternative name list and
the Place Name Editor (between the name and type fields).

The Title Name displayed in the list is for the place hierarch today.
And if there is no date in the event, the place name displayed will be
fore the earliest date possible; think year 1.

https://gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Gramps_5.1_Wiki_Manual_-_Entering_and_editing_data%3A_detailed_-_part_2#Place_Editor_dialog


On Fri, Oct 4, 2019 at 12:21 PM Tony Hacche <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Another newbie question. This time about the changes to counties over time the the implications for referencing them in Places.
>
> Take Cardiff for example. Prior to 1974 it was in the county of Glamorgan. In 1974 Glamorgan was split into three and Cardiff became part of the county of South Glamorgan.
>
> I have a residence event for Cardiff in 1881 so I created a Places hierarchy as follows ...
>
> Wales > Glamorgan > Cardiff
>
> The event was before 1974 so I went with the older county name.
>
> I now have a residence event in Cardiff for 1986. I noticed that you can add multiple "Enclosed by" locations and assign dates so I modified Cardiff to have the following "Enclosed by" locations ...
>
> Glamorgan       County  Before 1974
> South Glamorgan County  After 1974
>
> Is this logic correct or should I have tackled this diffrently?
>
> However, in PLaces I have the following hierarchy ...
>
> Wales > Glamorgan > Cardiff
> Wales > South Glamorgan
>
> I guess I was expecting Cardiff to appear in both counties. Although, looking at the references for each county I can see that Cardiff does appear in both, just not in the overall Places screen.
>
> Have I missed something or is this just how it works?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Tony
>
> --
> Gramps-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
> https://gramps-project.org


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Re: Changes to counties and implications for Places

Tony Hacche
In reply to this post by Patrick Gerlier
Patrick,

> In the place screen, when hierarchical view is enabled, places are
> listed as their first "Enclosed by" relationship dictates. This is
> so because the Cardiff record is unique, even if there are several
> historical dependencies.

Ah, understood.

> Since this is only a "technical" view (so that you can comfortably
> change the records), it does not really matter. In the reports,
> the relationship corresponding to the event date is automatically
> selected.

Thought that might be the case. So, I was on the right lines.

> In case of multiple "Enclosed by", I prefer not to group places.
> To quickly "jump" to a place I use the side filter.

I quite like the tree view so will persist with it for the time being.

Thanks,

Tony


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Re: Changes to counties and implications for Places

Tony Hacche
In reply to this post by Brad Rogers
Brad,

> Broadly, yes(1).  However, if dates overlap like you give above,
> Gramps will display a question mark (under certain circumstances)
> to demonstrate it can't resolve a conflict.  So, you would have to
> do:
>
> Glamorgan County Before 1974
> South Glamorgan County After 1973

OK, will sort that out.

> However, in this case, you can be even more explicit:
>
> Glamorgan       County Before 1 April 1974
> South Glamorgan County After 31 Mar 1974

Indeed, my example was crude ;-)

> (1)  I always use Day, Month, Year when date ranging enclosures,
> so I'm not 100% certain how Gramps handles a year only date, but
> suspect it'll do so without problems.

Agreed, best to be as specific as possible.

Thanks,

Tony


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Re: Changes to counties and implications for Places

Tony Hacche
In reply to this post by Dave Scheipers
Dave,

> And to add another layer to the place hierarchy, sometimes the
> name of place changes names.

Yes, I have a few examples in my tree, one where a former maternity hospital is now a pre-school nursery ;-)

> The same date structure can be added to the Alternative name list
> and the Place Name Editor (between the name and type fields).

Yep, I have some tidying up to do based on what I have learnt today from the good folk on the mailing list.

> The Title Name displayed in the list is for the place hierarch
> today.
> And if there is no date in the event, the place name displayed
> will before the earliest date possible; think year 1.

Not sure I follow but hopefully it will become clearer as I use Gramps more.

Thanks,

Tony

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Re: Changes to counties and implications for Places

Dave Scheipers
> > The Title Name displayed in the list is for the place hierarch
> > today.
> > And if there is no date in the event, the place name displayed
> > will before the earliest date possible; think year 1.
>
> Not sure I follow but hopefully it will become clearer as I use Gramps more.

A little more explanation.

Any time the place title (the complete hierarchy) is displayed when it
is not a part of an event and date, the displayed name will be the
place name on today's date.  This is true regardless of the order of
the enclosed by places.  Another thing to be aware of, if you edit an
event, the place does not "see" the date so in the edit window, the
place will be as of today.

The other caution was that if an event has no date, the place
displayed will be as if the date was year 1. Sometimes, this is NOT
how you want the place displayed.

To give you an example, "Windham, Windham Co, Connecticut", started
out as "New Roxbury, Suffolk Co, Massachusetts Bay Colony". I first
used the "before <date>" in the date field for these earliest names
and enclosures. When I had a burial where the person died in 1990, the
cemetery displayed "New Roxbury, Suffolk Co, Massachusetts Bay
Colony". When I do not know the exact date of burial, I do not like to
put a date. So I had to rework those earliest dates to reflect a rage
"from... to..." and then add another enclosed by reference that would
handle non-date events.

This does not tend to be a problem wit most European places. But
something to be aware of. As you create these hierarchies and
alternate names, ask yourself, what would be displayed if the date was
year 1? which would be akin to an event with no date.

I hope I did not scare you off. If every event had a known date, this
would never be an issue.

Dave


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