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Civil & religious marriages

Jean-Laurent Terrosi

Hi,

I am currently creating the genealogy of my family.
So far, I've used religious marriage as main union type between spouses without hesitation. But now I'm wondering if civil marriage would be more appropriate...
What do you think about it: do you keep a record of the civil or the religious marriage?
Now let's suppose I want to have both. How can I do this with Gramps? One with the "marriage" event, the other with the custom event type?

Thank you in advance for your feedback.
Best regards,
Jean-Laurent


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Re: Civil & religious marriages

Ron Johnson

Off-topic: what non-francophone countries make strong distinctions between
religious and civil marriage?  (In the US, even though there's a
distinction, when you have a church marriage, you immediately sign the civil
papers.  Thus, there are no "only religious" marriages separate and apart
from civil marriages.)

On 05/18/2017 03:21 PM, Jean-Laurent Terrosi wrote:

>
> Hi,
>
> I am currently creating the genealogy of my family.
> So far, I've used religious marriage as main union type between spouses
> without hesitation. But now I'm wondering if civil marriage would be more
> appropriate...
> What do you think about it: do you keep a record of the civil or the
> religious marriage?
> Now let's suppose I want to have both. How can I do this with Gramps? One
> with the "marriage" event, the other with the custom event type?
>
> Thank you in advance for your feedback.
> Best regards,
> Jean-Laurent
>

--
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Re: Civil & religious marriages

Brad Rogers
In reply to this post by Jean-Laurent Terrosi
On Thu, 18 May 2017 22:21:04 +0200
Jean-Laurent Terrosi <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Jean-Laurent,

>What do you think about it: do you keep a record of the civil or the
>religious marriage?

Location of the marriage is indicative of the type of ceremony (over
here, at least).  IOW, if location is church, it's a religious ceremony,
otherwise it's civil.  In short, I simply use the one event for marriage.

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Re: Civil & religious marriages

Tom Samstag
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
That's ignoring the fact that many (most?) civil marriages nowadays are not a church marriage. Also,
"only religious" marriages do occur; in my case it was because the civil marriage was done for
immigration reasons and the church marriage came at a more convenient time, more than a year later.

Like all things in research, I'd say document everything that you have evidence for.

On 2017-05-18 13:39, Ron Johnson wrote:

>
> Off-topic: what non-francophone countries make strong distinctions between
> religious and civil marriage?  (In the US, even though there's a
> distinction, when you have a church marriage, you immediately sign the civil
> papers.  Thus, there are no "only religious" marriages separate and apart
> from civil marriages.)
>
> On 05/18/2017 03:21 PM, Jean-Laurent Terrosi wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I am currently creating the genealogy of my family.
>> So far, I've used religious marriage as main union type between spouses
>> without hesitation. But now I'm wondering if civil marriage would be more
>> appropriate...
>> What do you think about it: do you keep a record of the civil or the
>> religious marriage?
>> Now let's suppose I want to have both. How can I do this with Gramps? One
>> with the "marriage" event, the other with the custom event type?
>>
>> Thank you in advance for your feedback.
>> Best regards,
>> Jean-Laurent
>>
>

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Re: Civil & religious marriages

Dave Scheipers
In reply to this post by Jean-Laurent Terrosi
Welcome Jean-Laurent

If there are two separate events, I do include both using the Description field to denote if it was strictly the religious or civil service. I have a near cousin who married in Germany so has the two events. When I added her events I also included a note to the date they celebrate as the anniversary. I have a Mormon (LDS) cousin that has the two events as well.

Most marriages in the U.S. are a joint action so I just have the one event. I include the Officiant as an attribute on the event so that will indicate if it was just a civil marriage if it was performed by a Justice of Peace.. But I I do not make any special notation in the description field for these marriages.

Dave

On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 4:21 PM, Jean-Laurent Terrosi <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

I am currently creating the genealogy of my family.
So far, I've used religious marriage as main union type between spouses without hesitation. But now I'm wondering if civil marriage would be more appropriate...
What do you think about it: do you keep a record of the civil or the religious marriage?
Now let's suppose I want to have both. How can I do this with Gramps? One with the "marriage" event, the other with the custom event type?

Thank you in advance for your feedback.
Best regards,
Jean-Laurent


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Re: Civil & religious marriages

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson

My second marriage was civil-only, so I'm certainly not ignoring civil
marriage.  Your point about reasons for split timings is interesting, though.

On 05/18/2017 03:44 PM, Tom Samstag wrote:

> That's ignoring the fact that many (most?) civil marriages nowadays are not a church marriage. Also,
> "only religious" marriages do occur; in my case it was because the civil marriage was done for
> immigration reasons and the church marriage came at a more convenient time, more than a year later.
>
> Like all things in research, I'd say document everything that you have evidence for.
>
> On 2017-05-18 13:39, Ron Johnson wrote:
>> Off-topic: what non-francophone countries make strong distinctions between
>> religious and civil marriage?  (In the US, even though there's a
>> distinction, when you have a church marriage, you immediately sign the civil
>> papers.  Thus, there are no "only religious" marriages separate and apart
>> from civil marriages.)
>>
>> On 05/18/2017 03:21 PM, Jean-Laurent Terrosi wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I am currently creating the genealogy of my family.
>>> So far, I've used religious marriage as main union type between spouses
>>> without hesitation. But now I'm wondering if civil marriage would be more
>>> appropriate...
>>> What do you think about it: do you keep a record of the civil or the
>>> religious marriage?
>>> Now let's suppose I want to have both. How can I do this with Gramps? One
>>> with the "marriage" event, the other with the custom event type?
>>>
>>> Thank you in advance for your feedback.
>>> Best regards,
>>> Jean-Laurent


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Re: Civil & religious marriages

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by Jean-Laurent Terrosi
On 05/18/2017 03:45 PM, Brad Rogers wrote:

> On Thu, 18 May 2017 22:21:04 +0200
> Jean-Laurent Terrosi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hello Jean-Laurent,
>
>> What do you think about it: do you keep a record of the civil or the
>> religious marriage?
> Location of the marriage is indicative of the type of ceremony (over
> here, at least).  IOW, if location is church, it's a religious ceremony,
> otherwise it's civil.  In short, I simply use the one event for marriage.

Clergy can come to your house, or go to a beach...  :)

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Re: Civil & religious marriages

Brad Rogers
On Thu, 18 May 2017 16:03:07 -0500
Ron Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Ron,

>Clergy can come to your house, or go to a beach...  :)

True, to a point.  All marriage venues need to be licensed in England
and Wales.  However, outside isn't allowed, precluding the beach.
I /could/ license my house (well a specific room or rooms), though.  See;
<https://www.gov.uk/approval-of-premises-for-civil-marriage-or-civil-partnership>
specifically, the first paragraph of the section headed Conditions.  I
would also have to demonstrate that the cited room(s) are regularly
available (IOW, I can't license for just *my* wedding).  Also, one of the
conditions stipulate *no* religious content.  So, for England and Wales,
if the venue ain't a church it *will* be a civil ceremony.

TBH, I neglected to consider overseas.  In mitigation, I offer the fact
that in my tree, there are few overseas marriages, but even for those
few, the same thing applies;  All non-church marriages have been
conducted by a non-religious official.

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         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
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Re: Civil & religious marriages

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
On 05/18/2017 04:56 PM, Brad Rogers wrote:
> On Thu, 18 May 2017 16:03:07 -0500
> Ron Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hello Ron,
>
>> Clergy can come to your house, or go to a beach...  :)
> True, to a point.  All marriage venues need to be licensed in England
> and Wales.  However, outside isn't allowed, precluding the beach.

That's pretty high on the Stupid Government Regulations list...

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Re: Civil & religious marriages

Brad Rogers
On Thu, 18 May 2017 17:05:36 -0500
Ron Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Ron,

>That's pretty high on the Stupid Government Regulations list...

You have to remember that we're talking about Brit politicians here -
all of whom are almost completely out of touch with what most people
think about such things.

Possibly the argument is that the beach (or anywhere outside, in fact)
lacks the dignified, solemn even, ambience required for such an
important occasion.

IDK whether I agree with that argument or not.

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Re: Civil & religious marriages

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
On 05/18/2017 05:30 PM, Brad Rogers wrote:

> On Thu, 18 May 2017 17:05:36 -0500
> Ron Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hello Ron,
>
>> That's pretty high on the Stupid Government Regulations list...
> You have to remember that we're talking about Brit politicians here -
> all of whom are almost completely out of touch with what most people
> think about such things.
>
> Possibly the argument is that the beach (or anywhere outside, in fact)
> lacks the dignified, solemn even, ambience required for such an
> important occasion.

The dignity & solemnity of the occasion needed to be considered well before
the actual ceremony.  (Not that humanity is well-known for it's foresight
and emotional control...)

--
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Re: Civil & religious marriages

Brad Rogers
On Thu, 18 May 2017 18:46:56 -0500
Ron Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Ron,

>The dignity & solemnity of the occasion needed to be considered well
>before the actual ceremony.

Clearly, you've never seen an episode of "Don't Tell the Bride".   :-)

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Re: Civil & religious marriages

Gil da Costa
In reply to this post by Jean-Laurent Terrosi
On 18/05/2017 22:21, Jean-Laurent Terrosi wrote:
So far, I've used religious marriage as main union type between spouses without hesitation. But now I'm wondering if civil marriage would be more appropriate...

What do you think about it: do you keep a record of the civil or the religious marriage?
Now let's suppose I want to have both. How can I do this with Gramps? One with the "marriage" event, the other with the custom event type?


Since 1792, the only legal marriage in France is the civil one.
So, you should record it.

If you consider that religious marriage give some information, then you should record it too. In this case, it should be a separate event as they may occur in different places, and even on different dates in families who rejected Republic ("La Gueuse").

If the religious marriage has no legal value, I think that the predefined "Alternate Marriage" event is adequate.


G.Da Costa

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Re: Civil & religious marriages

Gil da Costa
On 19/05/2017 13:01, Jean-Laurent Terrosi wrote:

If one wants to officially search for marriage dates, he will ask to civil institutions like city halls, prefectures... and he will get the civil marriage dates, not the religious ones!
If I've quite understood you, you recommend to add civil marriage via the «marriage» event and the religious one via the «alternate marriage» event?

Yes! But only if the religious marriage carries some new information, but I think that every event carries useful information, possibly statistical data...


G.Da Costa

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Re: Civil & religious marriages

Jean-Laurent Terrosi
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
Le 18/05/2017 à 22:39, Ron Johnson a écrit :
(In the US, even though there's a 
distinction, when you have a church marriage, you immediately sign the civil 
papers.  Thus, there are no "only religious" marriages separate and apart 
from civil marriages.)

In France, your marriage must be civil to be recognized. You cannot go only to the church.
But you can go only to the city hall if you want :)


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Re: Civil & religious marriages

Jean-Laurent Terrosi
In reply to this post by Dave Scheipers
Le 18/05/2017 à 22:57, Dave Scheipers a écrit :
If there are two separate events, I do include both using the Description field to denote if it was strictly the religious or civil service.

You mean you use the "marriage" event for both and use the description to differentiate from each other?

I've just done a test with that method and chose to extract my family tree with the "relational graph" report. I set the marriage dates to be exported but it appears that only one was indeed exported. Does somebody know how marriage dates are extracted for reports when one has several marriage dates please?


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Re: Civil & religious marriages

Dave Scheipers
Hi Jean-Laurent

I use Marriage for both events and use the Description field to explain what they are.

Marriage    Civil Marriage, 5 Oct YYYY in XXXX, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany.

Marriage    Religious Marriage - Celebrated, 4 Nov YYYY in XXXX, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany.

Most times I am using the Complete Individual report or making a Narrated web site so the two marriage events show. I did test it in the Descendant Report. I did it twice and each time, the marriage event that was listed first was the one displayed.

But this raises another issue. I have a few relatives that married, divorced, and then remarried each other again. I am sure some of the other reports will not like this scenario.

I hope this helps, Dave






On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 1:45 PM, Jean-Laurent Terrosi <[hidden email]> wrote:
Le 18/05/2017 à 22:57, Dave Scheipers a écrit :
If there are two separate events, I do include both using the Description field to denote if it was strictly the religious or civil service.

You mean you use the "marriage" event for both and use the description to differentiate from each other?

I've just done a test with that method and chose to extract my family tree with the "relational graph" report. I set the marriage dates to be exported but it appears that only one was indeed exported. Does somebody know how marriage dates are extracted for reports when one has several marriage dates please?


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Re: Civil & religious marriages

Jean-Laurent Terrosi
Le 19/05/2017 à 21:28, Dave Scheipers a écrit :
I did test it in the Descendant Report. I did it twice and each time, the marriage event that was listed first was the one displayed.

I confirm... too bad
However I don't think it can be enhanced as the software cannot understand the meaning of the description fields, that's normal... ;)

Most times I am using the Complete Individual report or making a Narrated web site so the two marriage events show.
Yes, it's a solution but I find the internet reports not very nice ahahah


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Re: Civil & religious marriages

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
On 05/19/2017 12:35 PM, Jean-Laurent Terrosi wrote:

> Le 18/05/2017 à 22:39, Ron Johnson a écrit :
>> (In the US, even though there's a
>> distinction, when you have a church marriage, you immediately sign the civil
>> papers.  Thus, there are no "only religious" marriages separate and apart
>> from civil marriages.)
>
> In France, your marriage must be civil to be recognized. You cannot go
> only to the church.
> But you can go only to the city hall if you want :)
>

The same in the US: "church-only" marriages aren't marriages in the eye of
the law (and thus insurance companies, etc) until you also sign the
state-issues marriage license.

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Re: Civil & religious marriages

Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI
 Le 18/05/2017 à 22:39, Ron Johnson a écrit :  
> In France, your marriage must be civil to be recognized. You cannot go
> only to the church.

In fact French law the minister of religion is prohibited from celebrating a marriage unless the couples are already married in a civil one.
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
--
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                   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 

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