Coordinates of *large* Places?

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Coordinates of *large* Places?

Ron Johnson
Hi,

Does anyone enter the latitude/longitude of anything but the smallest
countries and (US) states?  ISTM that "the coordinates of California" (or
even modest sized states) just really don't have any practical meaning...

--
"Where it is a duty to worship the sun it is pretty sure to be a
crime to examine the laws of heat." Christopher Morley


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Re: Coordinates of *large* Places?

adrian.davey
A single pair of coordinates can only ever relate to a point, not an area!
Even a grave has an area, to use a genealogically-significant example of a polygon, though it can be approximated by one!
Those of us who have been brave enough to map cemeteries will be aware that accuracy and precision are extremely important [though different] issues, which are blithely ignored by most people who use coordinates!
You have the option of using the centroid of a bounded object as an indication of its general position on planet earth, but you will discover that the centroid of even apparently familiar objects such as "California" is not fixed or necessarily intuitive, and depends on the projection, the datum, and many other complex spatial geometric issues!
Most of the sources of lat/long "locations" offer completely spurious precision in the values they give the user, without providing a statement of the assumptions behind the values.
In my case, I am in no hurry to start using the coordinate fields in gramps at all.
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Re: Coordinates of *large* Places?

adrian.davey
Sorry, the end of my second sentence should have said that a grave can be approximated "by a point".
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Re: Coordinates of *large* Places?

Rich Lakey
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
I tried using approximate centers of states and decided I was showing my ignorance. You can get to many coordinates, just ask me. I am thinking of removing some of mine. But to use the coordinates of a cemetery or small town I feel is valid.  It would assist someone in finding the location on a map.  I have one cemetery that has a large number of ancesters whose web site provides detailed information on grave sites with several maps so detailed I was able to get coordinates that would get someone to within 25 yards of the grave site. Along with pictures of the stones and maps, together this information would be helpful to someone wanting to find a grave site. Coordinates do not have to be accurate within inches to be helpful in my opinion.
Rich

On 07/28/2015 06:47 PM, Ron Johnson wrote:
Hi,

Does anyone enter the latitude/longitude of anything but the smallest 
countries and (US) states?  ISTM that "the coordinates of California" (or 
even modest sized states) just really don't have any practical meaning...



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Re: Coordinates of *large* Places?

paul womack
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
Ron Johnson wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Does anyone enter the latitude/longitude of anything but the smallest
> countries and (US) states?  ISTM that "the coordinates of California" (or
> even modest sized states) just really don't have any practical meaning...

Well, I'd like there to be a radius option.

My working practice is to ALWAYS assign coordinates
to places - otherwise the geography view is useless.

I *very* much like the geography view, seeing how people
(and/or family structures) have moved over time.

If someone emigrates to "Australia", I want a map pin in Australia.

Sure I'd like to put a map pin in a state, or town, or street, or house,
but if "Australia" is all I know, I still want "something".

   BugBear

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Re: Coordinates of *large* Places?

ACProctor
Here's a suggestion on this subject folks: In STEMMA, the location of the
Place may be specified using an optional Location element. This normally
contains an ISO 6709 longitude/latitude pair (for a point) or an ordered
closed list of such values describing a polygon (for an irregular area) --  
the separating character is afforded by the standard. An Open='1' attribute
may be added to declare an ordered open list for representing roads and
streets. There's even a small example on the syntax page at:
http://www.parallaxview.co/familyhistorydata/home/document-structure/place.

The published syntax is slightly out-of-date as the development version has
now made the Location element time-dependent.

    Tony

----- Original Message -----
From: "paul womack" <[hidden email]>
To: "Ron Johnson" <[hidden email]>; "Gramps Mailing List"
<[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2015 8:47 AM
Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] Coordinates of *large* Places?


> Ron Johnson wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Does anyone enter the latitude/longitude of anything but the smallest
>> countries and (US) states?  ISTM that "the coordinates of California" (or
>> even modest sized states) just really don't have any practical meaning...
>
> Well, I'd like there to be a radius option.
>
> My working practice is to ALWAYS assign coordinates
> to places - otherwise the geography view is useless.
>
> I *very* much like the geography view, seeing how people
> (and/or family structures) have moved over time.
>
> If someone emigrates to "Australia", I want a map pin in Australia.
>
> Sure I'd like to put a map pin in a state, or town, or street, or house,
> but if "Australia" is all I know, I still want "something".
>
>   BugBear
>
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
>



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Re: Coordinates of *large* Places?

Brad Rogers
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 18:47:57 -0500
Ron Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Ron,

>Does anyone enter the latitude/longitude of anything but the smallest

I only enter coordinates for buildings.  Anything bigger makes little
sense to me.

--
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
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We're The League - Anti-Nowhere League

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Re: Coordinates of *large* Places?

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
On 07/29/2015 03:13 AM, Brad Rogers wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 18:47:57 -0500
> Ron Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hello Ron,
>
>> Does anyone enter the latitude/longitude of anything but the smallest
> I only enter coordinates for buildings.  Anything bigger makes little
> sense to me.

Different use-cases: for you, having distant relatives live in the same
village for 500 years is probably common.  Many of my ancestors picked up
and moved hundreds (or even *thousands*) of miles multiple times in their
lives, and the log cabins they lived in are l-o-n-g gone.

--
"Where it is a duty to worship the sun it is pretty sure to be a
crime to examine the laws of heat." Christopher Morley


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Re: Coordinates of *large* Places?

Brad Rogers
On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 03:50:11 -0500
Ron Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Ron,

>Different use-cases: for you, having distant relatives live in the same
>village for 500 years is probably common.  Many of my ancestors picked

Indeed it is, but even then, many of the properties in which they resided
are no longer extant or have been renamed or renumbered, making them
difficult to locate.  Same problem you have, albeit on a micro, rather
than macro, scale.  Often, only the village/hamlet name is given as the
'address' in (for example) census returns.  Even if I have a property
name/number I don't add Lat/Long unless I can locate the building with
certainty.

>up and moved hundreds (or even *thousands*) of miles multiple times in

Oh I've got a fair few that schlepped across the planet too.  Some of
them to multiple countries.  Mostly, they were military families.

--
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
People stare like they've seen a ghost
Titanic (My Over) Reaction - 999

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Re: Coordinates of *large* Places?

Simon C. Tremblay
In reply to this post by paul womack
I'm with BugBear on that.

Coordinates for large areas, even if they are arbitrary, makes the geography view very fun to use. If all I have is "Ireland", it's fun to see the pin on the map.

To map countries or states, I look them up in Google Maps, then I get the coordinates from the URI:


I even coded this bookmarklet to make copy pasting them easier. (In Windows, just hit Ctrl-C when the prompts are displayed):

javascript:var url=document.location.href;var matches=url.match(/(-?\d{1,3}\.\d{1,6})/g);alert(matches[0]);alert(matches[1]);

(I would love to automate the look up, parsing and pasting in gramps, but that regex is the extent of my coding skills...)

This works for anything you lookup in Google maps, so I use them for all places type. For addresses, it's accurate enough to enter in the GPS. You can also drop a pin on the map and get its coordinates.

For countries or states/provinces/départements, another suggestion would be to enter the coordinates of the Capital city/administrative centre.

What would be useful is to be able to choose different colour/type of pins on the map, so that we could map red ones for countries for example. Colours could be assigned by Places type...

Simon


On 29 July 2015 at 03:47, paul womack <[hidden email]> wrote:
Ron Johnson wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Does anyone enter the latitude/longitude of anything but the smallest
> countries and (US) states?  ISTM that "the coordinates of California" (or
> even modest sized states) just really don't have any practical meaning...

Well, I'd like there to be a radius option.

My working practice is to ALWAYS assign coordinates
to places - otherwise the geography view is useless.

I *very* much like the geography view, seeing how people
(and/or family structures) have moved over time.

If someone emigrates to "Australia", I want a map pin in Australia.

Sure I'd like to put a map pin in a state, or town, or street, or house,
but if "Australia" is all I know, I still want "something".

   BugBear

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Re: Coordinates of *large* Places?

Douglas Bainbridge
In reply to this post by paul womack
On 29/07/15 08:47, paul womack wrote:

> Ron Johnson wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Does anyone enter the latitude/longitude of anything but the smallest
>> countries and (US) states?  ISTM that "the coordinates of California" (or
>> even modest sized states) just really don't have any practical meaning...
> Well, I'd like there to be a radius option.
>
> My working practice is to ALWAYS assign coordinates
> to places - otherwise the geography view is useless.
>
> I *very* much like the geography view, seeing how people
> (and/or family structures) have moved over time.
>
> If someone emigrates to "Australia", I want a map pin in Australia.
>
> Sure I'd like to put a map pin in a state, or town, or street, or house,
> but if "Australia" is all I know, I still want "something".
>
>     BugBear
>
>
+1
I, too, very much like the geography view and use it
continually to see the distribution of relatives. The fact
that some Oz relatives are apparently in the middle of the
Nullarbor desert is less important than showing that I *do*
have Australian relatives.
Also it would be completely impossible to show and animate
anything of the career of my ship's doctor relative without
accepting a good deal of approximation in the lat/longs.
I'd like to be more accurate; and whenever a chance comes, I
take it, of course

Doug


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Re: Coordinates of *large* Places?

Serge Noiraud-2
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
Hi,

Le 29/07/2015 01:47, Ron Johnson a écrit :
> Hi,
>
> Does anyone enter the latitude/longitude of anything but the smallest
> countries and (US) states?  ISTM that "the coordinates of California" (or
> even modest sized states) just really don't have any practical meaning...
I think from gramps 4.2 we have another solution for that.
You may assign a kml file to a place.
If one event of one person is associated with this place, you'll see this on the map for this person.

Actually, only the map related to one person uses kml files.
The difficulty is to have kml files for one large place.

You can see PNG examples with the feature request : https://gramps-project.org/bugs/view.php?id=8375

As the documentation is not available for 4.2, you have no help for the moment.

Serge


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Re: Coordinates of *large* Places?

Serge Noiraud-2
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
Hi,

I emit again this mail already sent at 10:31 but not received on the mailing list.

Le 29/07/2015 01:47, Ron Johnson a écrit :
> Hi,
>
> Does anyone enter the latitude/longitude of anything but the smallest
> countries and (US) states?  ISTM that "the coordinates of California" (or
> even modest sized states) just really don't have any practical meaning...
I think from gramps 4.2 we have another solution for that.
You may assign a kml file to a place.
If one event of one person is associated with this place, you'll see this on the map for this person.

Actually, only the map related to one person uses kml files.
The difficulty is to have kml files for one large place.

You can see PNG examples with the feature request : https://gramps-project.org/bugs/view.php?id=8375

As the documentation is not available for 4.2, you have no help for the moment.

Serge


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Re: Coordinates of *large* Places?

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
On 07/30/2015 06:18 AM, Serge Noiraud wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I emit again this mail already sent at 10:31 but not received on the mailing list.
>
> Le 29/07/2015 01:47, Ron Johnson a écrit :
>> Hi,
>>
>> Does anyone enter the latitude/longitude of anything but the smallest
>> countries and (US) states?  ISTM that "the coordinates of California" (or
>> even modest sized states) just really don't have any practical meaning...
> I think from gramps 4.2 we have another solution for that.
> You may assign a kml file to a place.
> If one event of one person is associated with this place, you'll see this on the map for this person.

I don't see how that solves the problem.

> Actually, only the map related to one person uses kml files.
> The difficulty is to have kml files for one large place.

All the named places points in a region?

--
"Where it is a duty to worship the sun it is pretty sure to be a
crime to examine the laws of heat." Christopher Morley


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Re: Coordinates of *large* Places?

Serge Noiraud-2
Le 30/07/2015 17:11, Ron Johnson a écrit :

> On 07/30/2015 06:18 AM, Serge Noiraud wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I emit again this mail already sent at 10:31 but not received on the mailing list.
>>
>> Le 29/07/2015 01:47, Ron Johnson a écrit :
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Does anyone enter the latitude/longitude of anything but the smallest
>>> countries and (US) states?  ISTM that "the coordinates of California" (or
>>> even modest sized states) just really don't have any practical meaning...
>> I think from gramps 4.2 we have another solution for that.
>> You may assign a kml file to a place.
>> If one event of one person is associated with this place, you'll see this on the map for this person.
> I don't see how that solves the problem.
That doesn't solve the problem, but you have another way to show for example california on the map.
In this case, you can affect the coordinates to the capital sacramento. This is how I would do that.
>> Actually, only the map related to one person uses kml files.
>> The difficulty is to have kml files for one large place.
> All the named places points in a region?
Not at all. One place has only a latitude, a longitude and an altitude. The altitude is unused in gramps

Serge

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Re: Coordinates of *large* Places?

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
On 07/30/2015 11:17 AM, Serge Noiraud wrote:

> Le 30/07/2015 17:11, Ron Johnson a écrit :
>> On 07/30/2015 06:18 AM, Serge Noiraud wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I emit again this mail already sent at 10:31 but not received on the mailing list.
>>>
>>> Le 29/07/2015 01:47, Ron Johnson a écrit :
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> Does anyone enter the latitude/longitude of anything but the smallest
>>>> countries and (US) states?  ISTM that "the coordinates of California" (or
>>>> even modest sized states) just really don't have any practical meaning...
>>> I think from gramps 4.2 we have another solution for that.
>>> You may assign a kml file to a place.
>>> If one event of one person is associated with this place, you'll see this on the map for this person.
>> I don't see how that solves the problem.
> That doesn't solve the problem, but you have another way to show for example california on the map.

To what end?  Gramps already has a Geography feature.

> In this case, you can affect the coordinates to the capital sacramento. This is how I would do that.
>>> Actually, only the map related to one person uses kml files.
>>> The difficulty is to have kml files for one large place.
>> All the named places points in a region?
> Not at all. One place has only a latitude, a longitude and an altitude. The altitude is unused in gramps

I thought that it might have -- for example -- the coordinates of every
county in California.

--
"Where it is a duty to worship the sun it is pretty sure to be a
crime to examine the laws of heat." Christopher Morley


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Re: Coordinates of *large* Places?

Serge Noiraud-2
Le 30/07/2015 19:06, Ron Johnson a écrit :

> On 07/30/2015 11:17 AM, Serge Noiraud wrote:
>> Le 30/07/2015 17:11, Ron Johnson a écrit :
>>> On 07/30/2015 06:18 AM, Serge Noiraud wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I emit again this mail already sent at 10:31 but not received on the mailing list.
>>>>
>>>> Le 29/07/2015 01:47, Ron Johnson a écrit :
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> Does anyone enter the latitude/longitude of anything but the smallest
>>>>> countries and (US) states?  ISTM that "the coordinates of California" (or
>>>>> even modest sized states) just really don't have any practical meaning...
>>>> I think from gramps 4.2 we have another solution for that.
>>>> You may assign a kml file to a place.
>>>> If one event of one person is associated with this place, you'll see this on the map for this person.
>>> I don't see how that solves the problem.
>> That doesn't solve the problem, but you have another way to show for example california on the map.
> To what end?  Gramps already has a Geography feature.
This is a geography feature in 4.2.
If you have an ancestor X with a farm, you can see where is the farm and all the fields related to this farm.
If a descendant of X bought some other fields, you could see the new property with the old fields and the new ones.
In this case, you have one event related to the old property and a new one with the new fields purchased.
With that, you can follow the evolution of the farm during decades.

This is why I wanted to add this feature. I think this is useful for genealogy.

>> In this case, you can affect the coordinates to the capital sacramento. This is how I would do that.
>>>> Actually, only the map related to one person uses kml files.
>>>> The difficulty is to have kml files for one large place.
>>> All the named places points in a region?
>> Not at all. One place has only a latitude, a longitude and an altitude. The altitude is unused in gramps
> I thought that it might have -- for example -- the coordinates of every
> county in California.
I think you need to have one place for each county in california with their proper coordinates.
I you have a kml file which contains ten places, if you add it to gramps, we'll add ten places in gramps.

Serge

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Re: Coordinates of *large* Places?

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
On 07/30/2015 12:46 PM, Serge Noiraud wrote:

> Le 30/07/2015 19:06, Ron Johnson a écrit :
>> On 07/30/2015 11:17 AM, Serge Noiraud wrote:
>>> Le 30/07/2015 17:11, Ron Johnson a écrit :
>>>> On 07/30/2015 06:18 AM, Serge Noiraud wrote:
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> I emit again this mail already sent at 10:31 but not received on the mailing list.
>>>>>
>>>>> Le 29/07/2015 01:47, Ron Johnson a écrit :
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does anyone enter the latitude/longitude of anything but the smallest
>>>>>> countries and (US) states?  ISTM that "the coordinates of California" (or
>>>>>> even modest sized states) just really don't have any practical meaning...
>>>>> I think from gramps 4.2 we have another solution for that.
>>>>> You may assign a kml file to a place.
>>>>> If one event of one person is associated with this place, you'll see this on the map for this person.
>>>> I don't see how that solves the problem.
>>> That doesn't solve the problem, but you have another way to show for example california on the map.
>> To what end?  Gramps already has a Geography feature.
> This is a geography feature in 4.2.
> If you have an ancestor X with a farm, you can see where is the farm and all the fields related to this farm.
> If a descendant of X bought some other fields, you could see the new property with the old fields and the new ones.
> In this case, you have one event related to the old property and a new one with the new fields purchased.
> With that, you can follow the evolution of the farm during decades.
>
> This is why I wanted to add this feature. I think this is useful for genealogy.

Yes, that would be very useful.

But how would you do it??  Presumably some separate tool  -- the one that
creates the kml file -- would be needed...

--
"Where it is a duty to worship the sun it is pretty sure to be a
crime to examine the laws of heat." Christopher Morley


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Shared Place/geography database (was Re: Coordinates of *large* Places?)

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
On 07/30/2015 12:46 PM, Serge Noiraud wrote:
[snip]
>>> In this case, you can affect the coordinates to the capital sacramento. This is how I would do that.
>>>>> Actually, only the map related to one person uses kml files.
>>>>> The difficulty is to have kml files for one large place.
>>>> All the named places points in a region?
>>> Not at all. One place has only a latitude, a longitude and an altitude. The altitude is unused in gramps
>> I thought that it might have -- for example -- the coordinates of every
>> county in California.
> I think you need to have one place for each county in california with their proper coordinates.
> I you have a kml file which contains ten places, if you add it to gramps, we'll add ten places in gramps.

My fantasy is to have a shared geographic database of (at least) all
counties[1] in the US[2] with  their geographic coordinates, and what state
they're in sitting it a database somewhere in /usr/share/gramps.  Then, if I
open the Select Place window and search "Name contains" or "Title contains"
for -- for example -- Arapaho (a county in Colorado, USA), then if Gramps
doesn't find it already existing in the tree, that it would look in the
shared database for Arapaho and automagically import it into the tree as a
new Place.  (I want this because it's a metaphysical certitude that there's
just a whole lot of Place duplication going on amongst Gramps users.

It could even be a separate package, so that it could (1) be updated more
rapidly than Gramps releases, and (2) be independant of Gramps version.

[1] And there's nothing to stop it from also containing
cities/towns/townships/villages, etc.
[2] Naturally, other countries are welcome, too!!

--
"Where it is a duty to worship the sun it is pretty sure to be a
crime to examine the laws of heat." Christopher Morley


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Re: Shared Place/geography database (was Re: Coordinates of *large* Places?)

Thomas Malsbury
I have just been watching this thread from the sidelines, and to be honest have not yet used the geography features of Gramps. My main thought is how this type of shared geographic database would take into consideration time dependent boundaries of counties over times? Would this only be a set of boundaries as they are found today, or would there be any type of mechanism to use historic mapping in this type of sytem. 

I don't know if the site http://www.mapofus.org/ shares it's data or if it pulls publicly available data that may be of use to this type of project. For example you can step through the county formations of New York state from 1683 to 1915 here: http://www.mapofus.org/newyork/  

I have found it a very useful tool in working out my historic place hierarchies as I manually input my data into Gramps. 

On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 2:19 PM, Ron Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 07/30/2015 12:46 PM, Serge Noiraud wrote:
[snip]
>>> In this case, you can affect the coordinates to the capital sacramento. This is how I would do that.
>>>>> Actually, only the map related to one person uses kml files.
>>>>> The difficulty is to have kml files for one large place.
>>>> All the named places points in a region?
>>> Not at all. One place has only a latitude, a longitude and an altitude. The altitude is unused in gramps
>> I thought that it might have -- for example -- the coordinates of every
>> county in California.
> I think you need to have one place for each county in california with their proper coordinates.
> I you have a kml file which contains ten places, if you add it to gramps, we'll add ten places in gramps.

My fantasy is to have a shared geographic database of (at least) all
counties[1] in the US[2] with  their geographic coordinates, and what state
they're in sitting it a database somewhere in /usr/share/gramps.  Then, if I
open the Select Place window and search "Name contains" or "Title contains"
for -- for example -- Arapaho (a county in Colorado, USA), then if Gramps
doesn't find it already existing in the tree, that it would look in the
shared database for Arapaho and automagically import it into the tree as a
new Place.  (I want this because it's a metaphysical certitude that there's
just a whole lot of Place duplication going on amongst Gramps users.

It could even be a separate package, so that it could (1) be updated more
rapidly than Gramps releases, and (2) be independant of Gramps version.

[1] And there's nothing to stop it from also containing
cities/towns/townships/villages, etc.
[2] Naturally, other countries are welcome, too!!

--
"Where it is a duty to worship the sun it is pretty sure to be a
crime to examine the laws of heat." Christopher Morley


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