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Definition of step siblings?

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Definition of step siblings?

Peter Landgren
Hi,

With Rob's new NarrWeb I found that I hav a "step sibling".

 Strange, but I see how it happens.
My father was married twice. In the first marriage there were no children and the divorced
after a few years.  My father married my mother after 10 years and I was born. My fathers
first wife married another man after 8 years and a daughter was born.   She is now
regarded as my step sibling ( styvsyskon in Swedish). I have never seen here or never met
her.

This must be wrong!

Opinions?

/Peter


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Re: Definition of step siblings?

Helge@Gramps
Is there any relation to http://www.gramps-project.org/bugs/view.php?id=2855, but may be I'm wrong.
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Re: Definition of step siblings?

Peter Landgren
Den Thursday 27 August 2009 20.00.47 skrev Helge@GRAMPS:
> Is there any relation to
> http://www.gramps-project.org/bugs/view.php?id=2855, but may be I'm wrong.

Maybe, but remember there are separate modules for each language;
there is one rel_de.py and another rel_sv.py.  And they does not have much in common.
/Peter


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Re: Definition of step siblings?

Benny Malengier
In reply to this post by Peter Landgren
If you look in Relationship.py, function get_sibling_type, you see
that  self.STEP_SIB is defined as not birth relation parent that
corresponds.

So you are in a family with your father, and she is in a family with
the first wife of your father.
Normally  you should have no parent family where she is present, and
she should not have a parent family where you are present.

If that is the case, then the code
    orig_nb_par = self._get_nonbirth_parent_list(db, orig)
should not return a family with her mother in for you.
As that code runs with
for fam in person.get_parent_family_handle_list():

for you it should not return a family with her mother, and for her it
should not return a family with your father.
Check if that is the case with a print statement of eg fam.gramps_id

Benny

2009/8/27 Peter Landgren <[hidden email]>:

> Hi,
>
> With Rob's new NarrWeb I found that I hav a "step sibling".
>
>  Strange, but I see how it happens.
> My father was married twice. In the first marriage there were no children and the divorced
> after a few years.  My father married my mother after 10 years and I was born. My fathers
> first wife married another man after 8 years and a daughter was born.   She is now
> regarded as my step sibling ( styvsyskon in Swedish). I have never seen here or never met
> her.
>
> This must be wrong!
>
> Opinions?
>
> /Peter
>
>
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Re: Definition of step siblings?

Brian Matherly
In reply to this post by Peter Landgren
Peter,

> With Rob's new NarrWeb I found that I hav a "step
> sibling".
>
>  Strange, but I see how it happens.
> My father was married twice. In the first marriage there
> were no children and the divorced
> after a few years.  My father married my mother after
> 10 years and I was born. My fathers
> first wife married another man after 8 years and a daughter
> was born.   She is now
> regarded as my step sibling ( styvsyskon in Swedish). I
> have never seen here or never met
> her.
>
> This must be wrong!
>
> Opinions?

In my opinion, "step" relationships only exist if the people live in a nuclear family environment together. When I know of step-family relationships in my database, I create a family and add all of the children which I know to have lived together. This causes some people to be children in multiple families.

For example:
  Father A Marries Mother A and have Child A...
  I create Family A consisting of Father A, Mother A, and Child A

  Father B Marries Mother B and have Child B...
  I create Family B consisting of Father B, Mother B, and Child B

  Now, if Father A remarries Mother B and they both bring their children into the family...
  I create a new Family C which consists of Father A, Mother B, Child A and Child B
  In the family editor, I set the relationship between Father A and Child B to "Step child" and I set the relationship between Mother B and Child A to "Step child".

In my opinion, someone wrote some relationship calculation code that is too smart for its own good.

Wikipedia has some interesting reading on this, which, I think, agrees with my opinion:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Step-sibling

~Brian

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Re: Definition of step siblings?

Benny Malengier
In reply to this post by Benny Malengier
Hmm, I think I see what can cause this:

if fatherorig and motherorig and fatherother and motherother:
            if fatherother == fatherorig and motherother == motherorig:
                return self.NORM_SIB
            elif fatherother == fatherorig:
                #all birth parents are known, one
                return self.HALF_SIB_FATHER
            elif motherother == motherorig:
                return self.HALF_SIB_MOTHER
            else :
                return self.STEP_SIB

the last else could be considered wrong, people are not necessarily
STEP_SIB at that point.
However, we arrive at the else because the two people have been
flagged as siblings in the first case by the relationship search. As
this is a recursive algorithm starting from a person and going up
though all parents, that would mean you and her have a cross with the
parents.
I don't see how that would be possible if things are how you say they are.

Benny

2009/8/27 Benny Malengier <[hidden email]>:

> If you look in Relationship.py, function get_sibling_type, you see
> that  self.STEP_SIB is defined as not birth relation parent that
> corresponds.
>
> So you are in a family with your father, and she is in a family with
> the first wife of your father.
> Normally  you should have no parent family where she is present, and
> she should not have a parent family where you are present.
>
> If that is the case, then the code
>    orig_nb_par = self._get_nonbirth_parent_list(db, orig)
> should not return a family with her mother in for you.
> As that code runs with
> for fam in person.get_parent_family_handle_list():
>
> for you it should not return a family with her mother, and for her it
> should not return a family with your father.
> Check if that is the case with a print statement of eg fam.gramps_id
>
> Benny
>
> 2009/8/27 Peter Landgren <[hidden email]>:
>> Hi,
>>
>> With Rob's new NarrWeb I found that I hav a "step sibling".
>>
>>  Strange, but I see how it happens.
>> My father was married twice. In the first marriage there were no children and the divorced
>> after a few years.  My father married my mother after 10 years and I was born. My fathers
>> first wife married another man after 8 years and a daughter was born.   She is now
>> regarded as my step sibling ( styvsyskon in Swedish). I have never seen here or never met
>> her.
>>
>> This must be wrong!
>>
>> Opinions?
>>
>> /Peter
>>
>>
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>> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus on
>> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
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>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>

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Re: Definition of step siblings?

Benny Malengier
In reply to this post by Brian Matherly
2009/8/27 Brian Matherly <[hidden email]>:

> In my opinion, someone wrote some relationship calculation code that is too smart for its own good.

Hmm, I wrote it ...
The previous code was simpler, however, it was also wrong and took on
average longer to compute. I closed all logical gaps I could think of.
But then some people were angry because half brothers were not
indicated as such...

Nevertheless,  the code should do almost what you are explaining. It
looks recursively upward to ancestors, when a collision is found, it
determines the relationship.
Siblings are handled specifically due to popular request.  For that
code to kick in, they must be flagged as siblings though, meaning they
share a parent. If you share a parent, you by definition must be a
sibling, a half sibling or a step sibling in GRAMPS, with step
indicating here also adopted, fostered, ...., as otherwise people
again complain because we use the word 'sibling' for a non birth
relationship. In what you are proposing, we would have to include even
more types as step would only be good for real step relationships.

Benny

>
> Wikipedia has some interesting reading on this, which, I think, agrees with my opinion:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Step-sibling
>
> ~Brian
>
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Re: Definition of step siblings?

Brian Matherly
> > In my opinion, someone wrote some relationship
> calculation code that is too smart for its own good.
>
> Hmm, I wrote it ...
> The previous code was simpler, however, it was also wrong
> and took on
> average longer to compute. I closed all logical gaps I
> could think of.
> But then some people were angry because half brothers were
> not
> indicated as such...

I think you did a great job. But if Peter's database is set up as he describes, then we have a bug somewhere.

> Nevertheless,  the code should do almost what you are
> explaining. It
> looks recursively upward to ancestors, when a collision is
> found, it
> determines the relationship.
> Siblings are handled specifically due to popular
> request.  For that
> code to kick in, they must be flagged as siblings though,
> meaning they
> share a parent.

I guess I see it differently. In my opinion (without looking up the technical definition of sibling), a sibling (half, step, foster, etc) is someone you lived with in the same house and eat breakfast with in the morning. If this living condition ever existed, then it can be represented in Gramps using a family. I don't think Gramps should ever have to search through the database to find links between people and their parents to decide if two people are some form of a sibling.

But I understand that my idealism may not apply in all situations.

~Brian

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Re: Definition of step siblings?

Peter Landgren
In reply to this post by Benny Malengier
Den Thursday 27 August 2009 21.03.25 skrev Benny Malengier:

> 2009/8/27 Brian Matherly <[hidden email]>:
> > In my opinion, someone wrote some relationship calculation code that is
> > too smart for its own good.
>
> Hmm, I wrote it ...
> The previous code was simpler, however, it was also wrong and took on
> average longer to compute. I closed all logical gaps I could think of.
> But then some people were angry because half brothers were not
> indicated as such...
>
> Nevertheless,  the code should do almost what you are explaining. It
> looks recursively upward to ancestors, when a collision is found, it
> determines the relationship.
> Siblings are handled specifically due to popular request.  For that
> code to kick in, they must be flagged as siblings though, meaning they
> share a parent. If you share a parent, you by definition must be a
> sibling, a half sibling or a step sibling in GRAMPS, with step
> indicating here also adopted, fostered, ...., as otherwise people
> again complain because we use the word 'sibling' for a non birth
> relationship. In what you are proposing, we would have to include even
> more types as step would only be good for real step relationships.
>
> Benny
>
> > Wikipedia has some interesting reading on this, which, I think, agrees
> > with my opinion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Step-sibling
> >
> > ~Brian
> >
The problem is that there is a separate step siblings calcukation i NarrWeb from line 3978
to line 4069.

/Peter


/Peter


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Re: Definition of step siblings?

Benny Malengier
2009/8/27 Peter Landgren <[hidden email]>:

> Den Thursday 27 August 2009 21.03.25 skrev Benny Malengier:
>> 2009/8/27 Brian Matherly <[hidden email]>:
>> > In my opinion, someone wrote some relationship calculation code that is
>> > too smart for its own good.
>>
>> Hmm, I wrote it ...
>> The previous code was simpler, however, it was also wrong and took on
>> average longer to compute. I closed all logical gaps I could think of.
>> But then some people were angry because half brothers were not
>> indicated as such...
>>
>> Nevertheless,  the code should do almost what you are explaining. It
>> looks recursively upward to ancestors, when a collision is found, it
>> determines the relationship.
>> Siblings are handled specifically due to popular request.  For that
>> code to kick in, they must be flagged as siblings though, meaning they
>> share a parent. If you share a parent, you by definition must be a
>> sibling, a half sibling or a step sibling in GRAMPS, with step
>> indicating here also adopted, fostered, ...., as otherwise people
>> again complain because we use the word 'sibling' for a non birth
>> relationship. In what you are proposing, we would have to include even
>> more types as step would only be good for real step relationships.
>>
>> Benny
>>
>> > Wikipedia has some interesting reading on this, which, I think, agrees
>> > with my opinion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Step-sibling
>> >
>> > ~Brian
>> >
> The problem is that there is a separate step siblings calcukation i NarrWeb from line 3978
> to line 4069.

Yes, I see. The code is wrong, it considers step relation not based on
same families, but based on the families of the parents.
This is complicated stuff though as you don't know who the other
people should be, so you need some searching.

So it does

person --> father/mother --> all father/mother families --> all children

whereas it should do like the relationship calculation:

person --> all families present as a child --> children

For half relationships the situation is more complicated as half
relations need not share a family. So there it is

person --> birth parents --> all birth parents families --> all birth
children from a birth parent.

Benny
>
> /Peter
>
>
> /Peter
>
>

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Re: Definition of step siblings?

Duncan Lithgow-5
In reply to this post by Brian Matherly
2009/8/27 Brian Matherly <[hidden email]>:
> I guess I see it differently. In my opinion (without looking up the technical definition of sibling), a sibling (half, step, foster, etc) is someone you lived with in the same house and eat breakfast with in the morning. If this living condition ever existed, then it can be represented in Gramps using a family.

But surely any child of my mother and father must be a sibling to me,
regardless of the living arrangements. Likewise any child of only my
mother or only my father must be a half-sibling to me. Ah,
interesting, I just used a different term!

So now I agree that a half-sibling is a biological connection while a
step-sibling has to do with attitudes and living arrangements.

Now I have no idea if my thoughts are relevant anymore...

Duncan

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Re: Definition of step siblings?

Gerald Britton-2
I understand a half-sibling to share half your genetic history but a
step-sibling to be only related by marriage. Classic example:
Cinderella --  a step sister since she was not genetically related to
her sisters or her step-mother.  On the other hand, I have a daughter
from my first marriage who is my wife's step-daughter but my other
girls' half-sister.

On 8/27/09, Duncan Lithgow <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2009/8/27 Brian Matherly <[hidden email]>:
>> I guess I see it differently. In my opinion (without looking up the
>> technical definition of sibling), a sibling (half, step, foster, etc) is
>> someone you lived with in the same house and eat breakfast with in the
>> morning. If this living condition ever existed, then it can be represented
>> in Gramps using a family.
>
> But surely any child of my mother and father must be a sibling to me,
> regardless of the living arrangements. Likewise any child of only my
> mother or only my father must be a half-sibling to me. Ah,
> interesting, I just used a different term!
>
> So now I agree that a half-sibling is a biological connection while a
> step-sibling has to do with attitudes and living arrangements.
>
> Now I have no idea if my thoughts are relevant anymore...
>
> Duncan
>
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--
Sent from my mobile device

Gerald Britton

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Re: Definition of step siblings?

Peter Landgren
In reply to this post by Benny Malengier
Den Thursday 27 August 2009 22.31.51 skrev Benny Malengier:

> 2009/8/27 Peter Landgren <[hidden email]>:
> > Den Thursday 27 August 2009 21.03.25 skrev Benny Malengier:
> >> 2009/8/27 Brian Matherly <[hidden email]>:
> >> > In my opinion, someone wrote some relationship calculation code that
> >> > is too smart for its own good.
> >>
> >> Hmm, I wrote it ...
> >> The previous code was simpler, however, it was also wrong and took on
> >> average longer to compute. I closed all logical gaps I could think of.
> >> But then some people were angry because half brothers were not
> >> indicated as such...
> >>
> >> Nevertheless,  the code should do almost what you are explaining. It
> >> looks recursively upward to ancestors, when a collision is found, it
> >> determines the relationship.
> >> Siblings are handled specifically due to popular request.  For that
> >> code to kick in, they must be flagged as siblings though, meaning they
> >> share a parent. If you share a parent, you by definition must be a
> >> sibling, a half sibling or a step sibling in GRAMPS, with step
> >> indicating here also adopted, fostered, ...., as otherwise people
> >> again complain because we use the word 'sibling' for a non birth
> >> relationship. In what you are proposing, we would have to include even
> >> more types as step would only be good for real step relationships.
> >>
> >> Benny
> >>
> >> > Wikipedia has some interesting reading on this, which, I think, agrees
> >> > with my opinion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Step-sibling
> >> >
> >> > ~Brian
> >
> > The problem is that there is a separate step siblings calcukation i
> > NarrWeb from line 3978 to line 4069.
>
> Yes, I see. The code is wrong, it considers step relation not based on
> same families, but based on the families of the parents.
> This is complicated stuff though as you don't know who the other
> people should be, so you need some searching.
>
> So it does
>
> person --> father/mother --> all father/mother families --> all children
>
> whereas it should do like the relationship calculation:
>
> person --> all families present as a child --> children
>
> For half relationships the situation is more complicated as half
> relations need not share a family. So there it is
>
> person --> birth parents --> all birth parents families --> all birth
> children from a birth parent.
>
> Benny
>
I have made a bug ticket on the tracker and assigned it to Rob.

/Peter


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Re: Definition of step siblings?

Benny Malengier
2009/8/28 Peter Landgren <[hidden email]>:

> Den Thursday 27 August 2009 22.31.51 skrev Benny Malengier:
>> 2009/8/27 Peter Landgren <[hidden email]>:
>>
>> Yes, I see. The code is wrong, it considers step relation not based on
>> same families, but based on the families of the parents.
>> This is complicated stuff though as you don't know who the other
>> people should be, so you need some searching.
>>
>> So it does
>>
>> person --> father/mother --> all father/mother families --> all children
>>
>> whereas it should do like the relationship calculation:
>>
>> person --> all families present as a child --> children
>>
>> For half relationships the situation is more complicated as half
>> relations need not share a family. So there it is
>>
>> person --> birth parents --> all birth parents families --> all birth
>> children from a birth parent.
>>
>> Benny
>>
> I have made a bug ticket on the tracker and assigned it to Rob.

I do not think this is something Rob can easily fix with his skills.
Although Rob maintains nar web, he has not much experience in database
transversal. Doing this correctly requires good understanding of the
person, family and childref objects of gen.lib, as well as keeping
track of transversed paths. Please unassign it or assign it to
yourself if you want to give it a shot. Rob can assign the bug to
himself should he have a patch for the problem.

Note that for this, the patch should anyway best be reviewed by one of
the developers experienced with the database.

Benny

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