Descriptions etc.

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Descriptions etc.

Richard Holmes
What's the best way to add something like a personal description?

For instance I have a person described in one source as "About 5 feet 9 1/2 inches, dark hair, blue eyes, light complexion." I could create a note in the Person record, and that would appear in a report such as a Complete Individual Report. However, there is no way to link such a note to the source citation from which that information came.

Or I could create a note in the Citation record, but then the note does not appear in the report. Or at least I don't see how to make it appear.

The same would apply to other narrative information, of course.

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Re: Descriptions etc.

Ron Johnson
On 03/13/2018 07:30 PM, Richard Holmes wrote:
What's the best way to add something like a personal description?

For instance I have a person described in one source as "About 5 feet 9 1/2 inches, dark hair, blue eyes, light complexion." I could create a note in the Person record, and that would appear in a report such as a Complete Individual Report. However, there is no way to link such a note to the source citation from which that information came.

Definitely store them as Attributes, since height, eye color, hair color and skin complexion are attributes...  :)

You'll probably have to add custom attribute types, though.  And you can add citations to Attributes.


Or I could create a note in the Citation record, but then the note does not appear in the report. Or at least I don't see how to make it appear.

The same would apply to other narrative information, of course.



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Re: Descriptions etc.

Richard Holmes
In reply to this post by Richard Holmes
Thanks for the information about attributes.

But how about other sorts of narrative information? Personal anecdotes, for example?


On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 8:30 PM Richard Holmes <[hidden email]> wrote:
What's the best way to add something like a personal description?

For instance I have a person described in one source as "About 5 feet 9 1/2 inches, dark hair, blue eyes, light complexion." I could create a note in the Person record, and that would appear in a report such as a Complete Individual Report. However, there is no way to link such a note to the source citation from which that information came.

Or I could create a note in the Citation record, but then the note does not appear in the report. Or at least I don't see how to make it appear.

The same would apply to other narrative information, of course.

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Re: Descriptions etc.

Richard Holmes
... Obviously an anecdote tied to a particular event could be in a note for that event, with source tied to that event. But some stories are not so specifically event-related.


On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 11:44 PM Richard Holmes <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks for the information about attributes.

But how about other sorts of narrative information? Personal anecdotes, for example?


On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 8:30 PM Richard Holmes <[hidden email]> wrote:
What's the best way to add something like a personal description?

For instance I have a person described in one source as "About 5 feet 9 1/2 inches, dark hair, blue eyes, light complexion." I could create a note in the Person record, and that would appear in a report such as a Complete Individual Report. However, there is no way to link such a note to the source citation from which that information came.

Or I could create a note in the Citation record, but then the note does not appear in the report. Or at least I don't see how to make it appear.

The same would apply to other narrative information, of course.

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Re: Descriptions etc.

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by Richard Holmes

And even attach notes to attributes.

On 03/13/2018 10:46 PM, Richard Holmes wrote:
... Obviously an anecdote tied to a particular event could be in a note for that event, with source tied to that event. But some stories are not so specifically event-related.


On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 11:44 PM Richard Holmes <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks for the information about attributes.

But how about other sorts of narrative information? Personal anecdotes, for example?


On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 8:30 PM Richard Holmes <[hidden email]> wrote:
What's the best way to add something like a personal description?

For instance I have a person described in one source as "About 5 feet 9 1/2 inches, dark hair, blue eyes, light complexion." I could create a note in the Person record, and that would appear in a report such as a Complete Individual Report. However, there is no way to link such a note to the source citation from which that information came.

Or I could create a note in the Citation record, but then the note does not appear in the report. Or at least I don't see how to make it appear.

The same would apply to other narrative information, of course.


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Re: Descriptions etc.

Brad Rogers
In reply to this post by Richard Holmes
On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 03:46:47 +0000
Richard Holmes <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Richard,

>that event, with source tied to that event. But some stories are not so
>specifically event-related.

Then use the person's Notes tab to create a more generic Note.  Event
specific Notes being attached to the relevant Event, of course.

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Re: Descriptions etc.

paul womack
In reply to this post by Richard Holmes
Richard Holmes wrote:
> Thanks for the information about attributes.
>
> But how about other sorts of narrative information? Personal anecdotes, for example?

You mean the time your grandfather roller skated 3 times
around the local church, sort of thing?

Most anecdotes would be Events (of some type).

Gramps only has (more or less) genealogical events preconfigured.

If you want to have types of a more "Social History" nature,
you'll have to add them yourself.

  BugBear


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Re: Descriptions etc.

Craig Treleaven
> On Mar 14, 2018, at 5:36 AM, paul womack <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Richard Holmes wrote:
>> Thanks for the information about attributes.
>>
>> But how about other sorts of narrative information? Personal anecdotes, for example?
>
> You mean the time your grandfather roller skated 3 times
> around the local church, sort of thing?
>
> Most anecdotes would be Events (of some type).
>
> Gramps only has (more or less) genealogical events preconfigured.
>
> If you want to have types of a more "Social History" nature,
> you'll have to add them yourself.
>

I think the OP may be thinking of notes such as the following:

"Willard King Treleaven - 1886

Willard helped to survey the railway through the Rockies. He then turned to  laying railroads through northern Ontario.

He ranched and farmed in Langruth and Amaranth, Poplar Point, Haywood and Elm Creek, Manitoba. Retired in Winnipeg. Both Willard and wife Laura are buried in Kenora, Ontario.”

A gedcom that I got from a distant Treleaven relative has notes attached to several hundreds of the individuals.  Some are short, like the above, and some are a few hundred words.  Generally, each is a  brief biography or life story.  Trying to record these details as Gramps Events would be difficult—dates, places and other details aren’t very specific.

BTW, I know that in this case, the original researcher did not have a computer (his work started in the 1970s).  There was basically one typewritten sheet for each family and a hand-drawn family tree.  The note above would have been transcribed verbatim from the typewritten sheet.

I haven’t really looked, but another genealogy package might be better suited to this style of family history?  Or maybe the output of the Gramp’s Narrated Web Site achieves what the OP wants?

Craig
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Re: Descriptions etc.

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by paul womack
On 03/14/2018 09:38 AM, Craig Treleaven wrote:
[snip]
I think the OP may be thinking of notes such as the following:

"Willard King Treleaven - 1886

Willard helped to survey the railway through the Rockies. He then turned to  laying railroads through northern Ontario.

He ranched and farmed in Langruth and Amaranth, Poplar Point, Haywood and Elm Creek, Manitoba. Retired in Winnipeg. Both Willard and wife Laura are buried in Kenora, Ontario.”

A gedcom that I got from a distant Treleaven relative has notes attached to several hundreds of the individuals.  Some are short, like the above, and some are a few hundred words.  Generally, each is a  brief biography or life story.  Trying to record these details as Gramps Events would be difficult—dates, places and other details aren’t very specific.

I disagree.

The events you'd have to manually create would be lacking in detail, but it's more than doable.  In this case, you'd have a bunch of Occupation and Residence events, and two burial events with no dates.


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Re: Descriptions etc.

Agnes Charrel-Berthillier
On 3/14/18 08:24, Ron Johnson wrote:
On 03/14/2018 09:38 AM, Craig Treleaven wrote:
A gedcom that I got from a distant Treleaven relative has notes attached to several hundreds of the individuals.  Some are short, like the above, and some are a few hundred words.  Generally, each is a  brief biography or life story.  Trying to record these details as Gramps Events would be difficult—dates, places and other details aren’t very specific.

I disagree.

The events you'd have to manually create would be lacking in detail, but it's more than doable.  In this case, you'd have a bunch of Occupation and Residence events, and two burial events with no dates.
Most of those events are not displayed well in existent reports (including the Narrated Website, which comes closest), and notes (containing the nice narrative parts) attached to those events will not be displayed at all. So breaking down a concise narrative into undated events is doable but not exactly useful (except for the sourcing).

For notes attached directly to Persons we are back to the issue that you can't Source them.

Still trying to find a way to make it work...


Agnes


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Re: Descriptions etc & the problem of attaching source citations to notes

adrian.davey
I endorse the suggestions about notes on either the person, or on one or
more events, or a combination of both [and the granularity about how
many separate events is for the user to decide—like many things in
gramps, there is no one "right" way of doing this].

A downside of notes attached to a person [rather than an event] is that
some of the gramps text report types render that material first [usually
after a basic introductory paragraph, but usually prior to the details
of birth and other person events. It would generally make far more sense
if person note content was rendered into a text report after most of
that other material. The main web report options in gramps [Dynamic web
& Narrated web] are not so problematic, even if they still have some quirks.

But I also recognise the problem that gramps does not currently permit
direct citation of sources for notes.

I generally use person note, rather than an event note. In either case
my workaround for the inability to attach a source citation directly to
the note itself is one of three kinds.

(1) In the first case, if the original source was a publication such as
a newspaper, journal or book, or a URL, I usually embed the actual
reference details within the text of the note, even if that might well
be duplication of material that is already provided in a source. [At
least in my case, I have never pretended that my endnote source list _on
its own_ will provide a comprehensive listing of actual sources, as I
have always embedded some source citations [mainly newspaper articles]
directly within notes in this manner and that particular item may only
ever appear within that note.]

(2) In the second case, where the original source is like the situation
described earlier (e.g. summary pages typed up long ago by someone
else), I usually create a gramps source object describing as much as I
know about that source, and then attach a citation of that source
directly to the person [and/or to the relevant events]. This is
unsatisfactory in the sense that it does not attach directly to the
note, but it is usually close enough to help both me [as db manager] and
users [family members] work out where that content came from
[particularly if I include within the text of the note(s) a cryptic text
reference like "X Y's family tree (undated)..." and where the source
cited provides as much information as possible about X Y].

(3) If there is a very lengthy "note", and it applies equally to more
than a couple of individuals within a family, a gramps text report [e.g.
DDR] becomes extremely repetitive with all that material printing out
successively for every one of the individuals. [I have a db of ~30k
individuals, and before I developed this strategy I originally had a
couple of dozen very lengthy notes, connected in total to several
hundred individuals, mainly providing details of land title searches &
parcel descriptions,  or summary analyses of ledger & account books, or
transcripts of inquests or wills and probate distributions. In these
cases, I now create a single source, attach the long note only to that,
and then attach the source citation to the individuals [or to the
inquest or probate event]. That way the main text ceases to be bloated
with multiple instances of repetitive material, but there are two
downsides. The first is that many people will overlook the note, until
and unless they do actually look way up the back at the endnotes [or, in
the web reports, follow the link and see all the additional material].
The second is that some people may find it unsatisfactory that buried
within the endnotes there are entries [though usually only one or two in
any one family] that have notes that run to many pages in length. Until
gramps has some function to tag such text as some kind of numbered
appendix, this is the best workaround I have so far come up with!

gramps is very flexible and powerful software, but not (yet) perfect!

Adrian Davey

On 2018-03-15 07:14, Agnes Charrel-Berthillier wrote:

> On 3/14/18 08:24, Ron Johnson wrote:
>> On 03/14/2018 09:38 AM, Craig Treleaven wrote:
>>> A gedcom that I got from a distant Treleaven relative has notes attached to several hundreds of the individuals.  Some are short, like the above, and some are a few hundred words.  Generally, each is a  brief biography or life story.*Trying to record these details as Gramps Events would be difficult*—dates, places and other details aren’t very specific.
>>
>> I disagree.
>>
>> The events you'd have to manually create would be lacking in detail,
>> but it's more than doable.  In this case, you'd have a bunch of
>> Occupation and Residence events, and two burial events with no dates.
> Most of those events are not displayed well in existent reports
> (including the Narrated Website, which comes closest), and notes
> (containing the nice narrative parts) attached to those events will
> not be displayed at all. So breaking down a concise narrative into
> undated events is doable but not exactly useful (except for the sourcing).
>
> For notes attached directly to Persons we are back to the issue that
> you can't Source them.
>
> Still trying to find a way to make it work...
>
>
> Agnes


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Re: Descriptions etc.

Richard Holmes
In reply to this post by paul womack
On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 5:36 AM paul womack <[hidden email]> wrote:
Richard Holmes wrote:
> Thanks for the information about attributes.
>
> But how about other sorts of narrative information? Personal anecdotes, for example?

You mean the time your grandfather roller skated 3 times
around the local church, sort of thing?

So apparently, if you want genealogical software that can accommodate sourced narrative fields, then (1) Gramps will not be suited to your use case and (2) you can expect to be ridiculed and insulted by the Gramps community for asking about it.

I will look elsewhere.
 
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Re: Descriptions etc.

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by paul womack
On 03/14/2018 05:05 PM, Richard Holmes wrote:
On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 5:36 AM paul womack <[hidden email]> wrote:
Richard Holmes wrote:
> Thanks for the information about attributes.
>
> But how about other sorts of narrative information? Personal anecdotes, for example?

You mean the time your grandfather roller skated 3 times
around the local church, sort of thing?

So apparently, if you want genealogical software that can accommodate sourced narrative fields, then (1) Gramps will not be suited to your use case and (2) you can expect to be ridiculed and insulted by the Gramps community for asking about it.

What you interpret as mocking, I see as clarification.  Paul in no way dismissed or ridiculed this kind of information, and in fact, described how Gramps handles it.

I will look elsewhere.

Or eat a Snickers, and stop being so grumpy.

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Re: Descriptions etc & the problem of attaching source citations to notes

Dave Hamilton
In reply to this post by adrian.davey
From what I read here there needs to be functionality along the lines of that provided by the now defunct Master Genealogist.

In that software there is an associated narrative field generated from the bare bones of an event at the time the event record is created. This narrative can then be updated manually.

Thus a birth event would generate a narrative along the lines of . . .

Thomas William Jones was born on the 14th of August 1863 in the village of Little Hampton to William and Martha (nee Smith).

A huge task for a developer and while I am not suggesting it be done, 'wouldn't it be loverly'?

Dave
-----Original Message-----
On 15 March 2018 07:42 Adrian Davey wrote:

 I endorse the suggestions about notes on either the person, or on one or more events, or a combination of both [and the granularity about how many separate events is for the user to decide—like many things in gramps, there is no one "right" way of doing this].
A downside of notes attached to a person [rather than an event] is that some of the gramps text report types render that material first [usually after a basic introductory paragraph, but usually prior to the details of birth and other person  events. It would generally make far more sense if person note content was rendered into a text report after most of that other material. The main web report options in gramps [Dynamic web & Narrated web] are not so problematic, even if they still have some quirks.

But I also recognise the problem that gramps does not currently permit direct citation of sources for notes.

I generally use person note, rather than an event note. In either case my workaround for the inability to attach a source citation directly to the note itself is one of three kinds.

(1) In the first case, if the original source was a publication such as a newspaper, journal or book, or a URL, I usually embed the actual reference details within the text of the note, even if that might well be duplication of material that is already provided in a source. [At least in my case, I have never pretended that my endnote source list _on its own_ will provide a comprehensive listing of actual sources, as I have always embedded some source citations [mainly newspaper articles] directly within notes in this manner and that particular item may only ever appear within that note.]

(2) In the second case, where the original source is like the situation described earlier (e.g. summary pages typed up long ago by someone else), I usually create a gramps source object describing as much as I know about that source, and then attach a citation of that source directly to the person [and/or to the relevant events]. This is unsatisfactory in the sense that it does not attach directly to the note, but it is usually close enough to help both me [as db manager] and users [family members] work out where that content came from [particularly if I include within the text of the note(s) a cryptic text reference like "X Y's family tree (undated)..." and where the source cited provides as much information as possible about X Y].

(3) If there is a very lengthy "note", and it applies equally to more than a couple of individuals within a family, a gramps text report [e.g.
DDR] becomes extremely repetitive with all that material printing out successively for every one of the individuals. [I have a db of ~30k individuals, and before I developed this strategy I originally had a couple of dozen very lengthy notes, connected in total to several hundred individuals, mainly providing details of land title searches & parcel descriptions,  or summary analyses of ledger & account books, or transcripts of inquests or wills and probate distributions. In these cases, I now create a single source, attach the long note only to that, and then attach the source citation to the individuals [or to the inquest or probate event]. That way the main text ceases to be bloated with multiple instances of repetitive material, but there are two downsides. The first is that many people will overlook the note, until and unless they do actually look way up the back at the endnotes [or, in the web reports, follow the link and see all the additional material].
The second is that some people may find it unsatisfactory that buried within the endnotes there are entries [though usually only one or two in any one family] that have notes that run to many pages in length. Until gramps has some function to tag such text as some kind of numbered appendix, this is the best workaround I have so far come up with!

gramps is very flexible and powerful software, but not (yet) perfect!

Adrian Davey


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Re: Descriptions etc & the problem of attaching source citations to notes

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by adrian.davey

You get that in the text reports.

On 03/14/2018 05:56 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

>  From what I read here there needs to be functionality along the lines of that provided by the now defunct Master Genealogist.
>
> In that software there is an associated narrative field generated from the bare bones of an event at the time the event record is created. This narrative can then be updated manually.
>
> Thus a birth event would generate a narrative along the lines of . . .
>
> Thomas William Jones was born on the 14th of August 1863 in the village of Little Hampton to William and Martha (nee Smith).
>
> A huge task for a developer and while I am not suggesting it be done, 'wouldn't it be loverly'?
>
> Dave

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Re: Descriptions etc & the problem of attaching source citations to notes

Agnes Charrel-Berthillier
On 3/14/18 20:54, Ron Johnson wrote:
>
> You get that in the text reports.
Only for birth/baptism/death/burial/marriage.
And most text reports actively ignore other events (census, residence,
profession....).

Granted the more there are the harder they are to handle, even without
getting into custom event types...


Agnes


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Re: Descriptions etc & the problem of attaching source citations to notes

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
On 03/15/2018 02:57 AM, Agnes Charrel-Berthillier wrote:
On 3/14/18 20:54, Ron Johnson wrote:

You get that in the text reports.
Only for birth/baptism/death/burial/marriage.
And most text reports actively ignore other events (census, residence, profession....).

Good point.  (File a Feature Request bug??)


Granted the more there are the harder they are to handle, even without getting into custom event types...

You'd have to know how to phrase the custom event types...


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Re: Descriptions etc & the problem of attaching source citations to notes

adrian.davey
In reply to this post by Agnes Charrel-Berthillier

On 2018-03-15 18:57, Agnes Charrel-Berthillier wrote:
> On 3/14/18 20:54, Ron Johnson wrote:
>>
>> You get that in the text reports.
> Only for birth/baptism/death/burial/marriage.
> And most text reports actively ignore other events (census, residence,
> profession....).

This is simply NOT TRUE for either the Detailed Ancestor Report, or the
Detailed Descendant Report - you get absolutely every event listed for
any individual, in the order in which you put them, INCLUDING custom
event types!
>
> Granted the more there are the harder they are to handle, even without
> getting into custom event types...
>
>

Adrian

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Re: Descriptions etc.

paul womack
In reply to this post by Agnes Charrel-Berthillier
Agnes Charrel-Berthillier wrote:
> Most of those events are not displayed well in existent reports (including the Narrated Website, which comes closest),
I never take how good a report will be into consideration when deciding how to store information.

I store information as clean and as detailed as I can.

I figure that reports can always be changed/updated/improved.

But the data (quality thereof) is by far the most important thing.

   BugBear

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Re: Descriptions etc.

John Paton
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
On 14/03/18 22:23, Ron Johnson wrote:

> On 03/14/2018 05:05 PM, Richard Holmes wrote:
>> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 5:36 AM paul womack <[hidden email]
>> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>>     Richard Holmes wrote:
>>     > Thanks for the information about attributes.
>>     >
>>     > But how about other sorts of narrative information? Personal
>>     anecdotes, for example?
>>
>>     You mean the time your grandfather roller skated 3 times
>>     around the local church, sort of thing?
>>
>>
>> So apparently, if you want genealogical software that can accommodate
>> sourced narrative fields, then (1) Gramps will not be suited to your
>> use case and (2) you can expect to be ridiculed and insulted by the
>> Gramps community for asking about it.
>
> What you interpret as mocking, I see as clarification.  Paul in no way
> dismissed or ridiculed this kind of information, and in fact, described
> how Gramps handles it.
>
>> I will look elsewhere.
>
> Or eat a Snickers, and stop being so grumpy.
>
> --
> Angular momentum makes the world go 'round.
>
>
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As one who was merely a passive observer of this thread I have to agree
with Ron's assessment that what was offered was neither mocking nor
insulting but rather was reasoned advice on how best to achieve what the
original correspondent required. I also agree with 'snickers' comment
although the originator of the thread probably won't see it, having
'gone elsewhere'.

John Paton
>
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