Discourse

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Re: Discourse

Brad Rogers
On Sat, 4 Jan 2020 15:33:10 +0100
Enno Borgsteede <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Enno,

>This is about account data held by a 3rd party however, and they must
>delete that once I stop using their services, and that's the law.

It may well be the law where you live (I don't know where you reside),
but not necessarily the law where anyone else lives.

This is why fb, google, Discourse, etc. will have different T&Cs for
each jurisdiction within which they operate and often include terms such
as "....so far as the law allows...." - a term which means they'll do
whatever they think they can get away with.

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        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
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Re: Discourse

Jeff D
In reply to this post by enno

Hi, 

 I have been exposed to GDPR via my company who does business worldwide. 

From our direction,  we don't remove/ delete anyone's data if they stop using our service.  We are obliged to remove someone's data if they formally request it.   And even then we have a time frame to do that.  

At least that's how our lawyers have interpreted those laws. 

Best regards, 
Jeff





-------- Original message --------
From: Enno Borgsteede <[hidden email]>
Date: 1/4/20 8:33 AM (GMT-06:00)
To: digital0xff <[hidden email]>, phil wharram <[hidden email]>, [hidden email], Gramps - User List <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] Discourse

Op 04-01-2020 om 15:21 schreef digital0xff:
You have a right not to use Discourse.  You have a right not to use Facebook.
That's not the point. The point is that, when I stop using these services, they are obliged to remove my account data.

Every email you send via this mailing list can be tracked to you and it's going to everyone's email server.

That's right. And that's a known consequence of email delivery. Data retention is not, however, meaning that once the email has been delivered, the nodes that took part in that delivery have no right to retain it, except where demanded by law.

If you want, you probably have the right to keep my emails forever, because sending them to the list implies that all subscribers get them, and can keep them. But even then, the copyright, and right to reproduce is mine, so you can't reproduce anything as your own.

This is about account data held by a 3rd party however, and they must delete that once I stop using their services, and that's the law.

Regards,

Enno




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Re: Discourse

GRAMPS - User mailing list
In reply to this post by enno
On 03/01/2020 21:58, Enno Borgsteede wrote:

I’m trying to do the same, but I don’t know how. Can you tell?

I have just deleted your account and all your posts.  It was a very simple process.

I suppose that is one advantage that Discourse has over a mailing list.


Nick.




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Re: Discourse

Jeff D
In reply to this post by GRAMPS - User mailing list
If we were using Discourse I would have liked this post.   :‐)




-------- Original message --------
From: Emyoulation--- via Gramps-users <[hidden email]>
Date: 1/4/20 8:56 AM (GMT-06:00)
To: Gramps-users Lists <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] Discourse

It was idle curiosity. The whole business of an online reputation is 'but a walking shadow; a poor player, that struts and frets his hour upon the stage, and then is heard no more: it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.'

Hey folks, we're genealogists! We find personal & secret information about people who've been dead for centuries and constantly 'out' them. 

We now dig up indiscretions via DNA that they never even shared with the hatchlings of their deceptions. We document evidence of criminal behavior, physical, mental & moral defects because they humanize and, darn it, it makes their life stories interesting! We battle through reconstructing redacted information as though it were an offense to History. (with that capital 'H') After obsessively searching for this kind of stuff, I accept that we're all snails, leaving behind our trails of slime in the dust.

My mother (since passed) was reminiscing about her first apartment and was frustrated about having forgotten details about it... the address & landlord. She was stunned when I found the half-century bygone original 'apartment to let' advert within a couple minutes, then a photo of it, followed by a personal history of that landlord.

Privacy is an illusion. Its only shielding is being uninteresting. 

-Brian

On Sat, Jan 4, 2020 at 5:57, Brad Rogers
On Fri, 3 Jan 2020 23:18:49 +0000 (UTC)
Emyoulation--- via Gramps-users <[hidden email]>
wrote:

Hello Emyoulation---,


>But your objection does make me wonder what happens to the user's posting(s) if their Discourse account is deleted by an Admin. Do all the posting(s) go too?


Does it matter? (rhetorical)

There's no knowing who has got copies of any messages, by any given person, stored on their own computer, on a cloud server, stored on wayback, etc.  Deleting messages, or redacting poster ID, IMO, serves no real purpose;  Despite what GDPR legislation may have to say about it.

The short version:
The internet never forgets.

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        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
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Re: Discourse

GRAMPS - User mailing list
+1 :)

On 04/01/2020 15:11, digital0xff wrote:
> If we were using Discourse I would have liked this post.   :‐)
>



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Re: Discourse

enno
In reply to this post by Brad Rogers
Hello Brad,

      
This is about account data held by a 3rd party however, and they must
delete that once I stop using their services, and that's the law.
It may well be the law where you live (I don't know where you reside),
but not necessarily the law where anyone else lives.

This is why fb, google, Discourse, etc. will have different T&Cs for
each jurisdiction within which they operate and often include terms such
as "....so far as the law allows...." - a term which means they'll do
whatever they think they can get away with.

I live in The Netherlands, and it means that when they operate here, and they obviously do, because their web sites speak my language, they have to comply with local legislation or be fined, or blocked. That is, because even foreign companies are subject to the GDPR.

In the early days of that law, some American sites didn't serve any content to European visitors, because they could not comply. That's how things are.

Regards,

Enno




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Re: Discourse

GRAMPS - User mailing list
In reply to this post by GRAMPS - User mailing list


Hi

Big difference as genealogists at a personal level we tend to be "not
for profit" some of the "secrets" I hold will probably stay on my PC and
disappear once more into oblivion, my children are not interested, my
grandchildren maybe and all I can hope to do is leave sufficient clues
for whichever is the next follower on this family path does not have to
spend time tracing the source of the same red herrings.

I am not on any social media sites because I simply do not trust them
and never will.

What a waste of time requiring a volunteer administrator to delete
people's account information.

My last post on this topic too many secrets still to be found

Regards
Phil
MLFHS 12583
Dumfries
On 04/01/2020 14:56, Emyoulation--- via Gramps-users wrote:

> It was idle curiosity. The whole business of an online reputation is 'but a walking shadow; a poor player, that struts and frets his hour upon the stage, and then is heard no more: it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.'
> Hey folks, we're genealogists! We find personal & secret information about people who've been dead for centuries and constantly 'out' them.
> We now dig up indiscretions via DNA that they never even shared with the hatchlings of their deceptions. We document evidence of criminal behavior, physical, mental & moral defects because they humanize and, darn it, it makes their life stories interesting! We battle through reconstructing redacted information as though it were an offense to History. (with that capital 'H') After obsessively searching for this kind of stuff, I accept that we're all snails, leaving behind our trails of slime in the dust.
> My mother (since passed) was reminiscing about her first apartment and was frustrated about having forgotten details about it... the address & landlord. She was stunned when I found the half-century bygone original 'apartment to let' advert within a couple minutes, then a photo of it, followed by a personal history of that landlord.
>
> Privacy is an illusion. Its only shielding is being uninteresting.
> -Brian
>  
>    On Sat, Jan 4, 2020 at 5:57, Brad Rogers<[hidden email]> wrote:   On Fri, 3 Jan 2020 23:18:49 +0000 (UTC)
> Emyoulation--- via Gramps-users <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> Hello Emyoulation---,
>
>> But your objection does make me wonder what happens to the user's posting(s) if their Discourse account is deleted by an Admin. Do all the posting(s) go too?
>
> Does it matter? (rhetorical)
>
> There's no knowing who has got copies of any messages, by any given person, stored on their own computer, on a cloud server, stored on wayback, etc.  Deleting messages, or redacting poster ID, IMO, serves no real purpose;  Despite what GDPR legislation may have to say about it.
>
> The short version:
> The internet never forgets.
>
>
>


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Re: Discourse

enno
In reply to this post by Jeff D

Hi Jeff,

I have been exposed to GDPR via my company who does business worldwide. 

From our direction,  we don't remove/ delete anyone's data if they stop using our service.  We are obliged to remove someone's data if they formally request it.   And even then we have a time frame to do that.  

At least that's how our lawyers have interpreted those laws.

And it looks like they're right. Here's a quote from an EC site about this:

Can I ask a company to delete my personal data?

Answer

Yes, you can ask for your personal data to be deleted when, for example, the data the company holds on you is no longer needed or when your data has been used unlawfully. Personal data provided when you were a child can be deleted at any time.

This right also applies online and is often referred to as the ‘right to be forgotten’. In specific circumstances, you may ask companies that have made your personal data available online to delete it. Those companies are also obliged to take reasonable steps to inform other companies (controllers) that are processing the personal data that the data subject has requested the erasure of any links to, or copies of, that personal data.

It’s worth keeping in mind that this right is not an absolute right, meaning that other rights, such as the freedom of expression and scientific research, are also safeguarded.

Examples

Data should be deleted

You have joined a social networking site. After a while, you decide to leave the networking site. You have the right to ask the company to delete the personal data belonging to you.

Data can’t immediately be deleted

A new bank offers good home loan deals. You’re buying a new house and decide to switch to the new bank. You ask the ‘old’ bank to close down all accounts and request to have all your personal details deleted. The old bank, however, is subject to a law obliging banks to store all customer details for 10 years. The old bank can’t simply delete your personal details. In this case, you may want to ask for restriction of processing of your personal data. The bank may then only store the data for the period of time required by law and can’t perform any other processing operations on them.

In the case of Discourse I think that it's clear that the 1st example applies. And as a user, I think that they should make it easy, in the sense that it's not very friendly to force me to call them, or send an email to a hard to find address.

And if facebook can offer a menu option for this, Discourse can too.

Regards,

Enno




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Re: Discourse

Jeff D
So if ancestry.com has my data embedded in various people's family trees,  can I tell ancestry.com to remove all my personal data?
And if so,  and they don't or can't,  and if I'm living within a country that has these GDPR laws,  are they breaking laws?  And are they susceptible to those huge fines?   They are making money on selling access to personal data. 

We've only just begun to figure out how to handle all this data....

Jeff



-------- Original message --------
From: Enno Borgsteede <[hidden email]>
Date: 1/4/20 9:55 AM (GMT-06:00)
To: digital0xff <[hidden email]>, phil wharram <[hidden email]>, [hidden email], Gramps - User List <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] Discourse

Hi Jeff,

I have been exposed to GDPR via my company who does business worldwide. 

From our direction,  we don't remove/ delete anyone's data if they stop using our service.  We are obliged to remove someone's data if they formally request it.   And even then we have a time frame to do that.  

At least that's how our lawyers have interpreted those laws.

And it looks like they're right. Here's a quote from an EC site about this:

Can I ask a company to delete my personal data?

Answer

Yes, you can ask for your personal data to be deleted when, for example, the data the company holds on you is no longer needed or when your data has been used unlawfully. Personal data provided when you were a child can be deleted at any time.

This right also applies online and is often referred to as the ‘right to be forgotten’. In specific circumstances, you may ask companies that have made your personal data available online to delete it. Those companies are also obliged to take reasonable steps to inform other companies (controllers) that are processing the personal data that the data subject has requested the erasure of any links to, or copies of, that personal data.

It’s worth keeping in mind that this right is not an absolute right, meaning that other rights, such as the freedom of expression and scientific research, are also safeguarded.

Examples

Data should be deleted

You have joined a social networking site. After a while, you decide to leave the networking site. You have the right to ask the company to delete the personal data belonging to you.

Data can’t immediately be deleted

A new bank offers good home loan deals. You’re buying a new house and decide to switch to the new bank. You ask the ‘old’ bank to close down all accounts and request to have all your personal details deleted. The old bank, however, is subject to a law obliging banks to store all customer details for 10 years. The old bank can’t simply delete your personal details. In this case, you may want to ask for restriction of processing of your personal data. The bank may then only store the data for the period of time required by law and can’t perform any other processing operations on them.

In the case of Discourse I think that it's clear that the 1st example applies. And as a user, I think that they should make it easy, in the sense that it's not very friendly to force me to call them, or send an email to a hard to find address.

And if facebook can offer a menu option for this, Discourse can too.

Regards,

Enno




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Re: Discourse

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by GRAMPS - User mailing list
They aren't interested now, and may never be.

But regularly give them copies of database backups, zip files with media and other documents, and AIO install files anyway.  Call it your "offsite backup strategy".  Then, if they or your grandchildren do get interested, they'll have something that can be "instantly" used.

On 1/4/20 9:51 AM, phil wharram via Gramps-users wrote:

Hi

Big difference as genealogists at a personal level we tend to be "not for profit" some of the "secrets" I hold will probably stay on my PC and disappear once more into oblivion, my children are not interested, my grandchildren maybe and all I can hope to do is leave sufficient clues for whichever is the next follower on this family path does not have to spend time tracing the source of the same red herrings.

I am not on any social media sites because I simply do not trust them and never will.

What a waste of time requiring a volunteer administrator to delete people's account information.

My last post on this topic too many secrets still to be found

Regards
Phil
MLFHS 12583
Dumfries

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Re: Discourse

Sean DALY
In reply to this post by Jeff D
Jeff — personal data in the GDPR sense means primarily personal identifying information such as street address, telephone number, financial information, etc. Contributions to a site are different.

The USA has historically had very weak privacy laws, which has been great for the American tech giants and their shareholders. In Europe, France, the UK and other countries have had data protection regulators since the 1970s. The GDPR unified and modernized the national legislations.

The CNIL has published a series of guidelines for businesses and individuals to understand their obligations and rights, e.g.:


Sean.


On Saturday, January 4, 2020, digital0xff <[hidden email]> wrote:
So if ancestry.com has my data embedded in various people's family trees,  can I tell ancestry.com to remove all my personal data?
And if so,  and they don't or can't,  and if I'm living within a country that has these GDPR laws,  are they breaking laws?  And are they susceptible to those huge fines?   They are making money on selling access to personal data. 

We've only just begun to figure out how to handle all this data....

Jeff



-------- Original message --------
From: Enno Borgsteede <[hidden email]>
Date: 1/4/20 9:55 AM (GMT-06:00)
To: digital0xff <[hidden email]>, phil wharram <[hidden email]>, [hidden email], Gramps - User List <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] Discourse

Hi Jeff,

I have been exposed to GDPR via my company who does business worldwide. 

From our direction,  we don't remove/ delete anyone's data if they stop using our service.  We are obliged to remove someone's data if they formally request it.   And even then we have a time frame to do that.  

At least that's how our lawyers have interpreted those laws.

And it looks like they're right. Here's a quote from an EC site about this:

Can I ask a company to delete my personal data?

Answer

Yes, you can ask for your personal data to be deleted when, for example, the data the company holds on you is no longer needed or when your data has been used unlawfully. Personal data provided when you were a child can be deleted at any time.

This right also applies online and is often referred to as the ‘right to be forgotten’. In specific circumstances, you may ask companies that have made your personal data available online to delete it. Those companies are also obliged to take reasonable steps to inform other companies (controllers) that are processing the personal data that the data subject has requested the erasure of any links to, or copies of, that personal data.

It’s worth keeping in mind that this right is not an absolute right, meaning that other rights, such as the freedom of expression and scientific research, are also safeguarded.

Examples

Data should be deleted

You have joined a social networking site. After a while, you decide to leave the networking site. You have the right to ask the company to delete the personal data belonging to you.

Data can’t immediately be deleted

A new bank offers good home loan deals. You’re buying a new house and decide to switch to the new bank. You ask the ‘old’ bank to close down all accounts and request to have all your personal details deleted. The old bank, however, is subject to a law obliging banks to store all customer details for 10 years. The old bank can’t simply delete your personal details. In this case, you may want to ask for restriction of processing of your personal data. The bank may then only store the data for the period of time required by law and can’t perform any other processing operations on them.

In the case of Discourse I think that it's clear that the 1st example applies. And as a user, I think that they should make it easy, in the sense that it's not very friendly to force me to call them, or send an email to a hard to find address.

And if facebook can offer a menu option for this, Discourse can too.

Regards,

Enno




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Re: Discourse

Peter Merchant
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
On 04/01/2020 16:44, Ron Johnson wrote:
They aren't interested now, and may never be.

But regularly give them copies of database backups, zip files with media and other documents, and AIO install files anyway.  Call it your "offsite backup strategy".  Then, if they or your grandchildren do get interested, they'll have something that can be "instantly" used.

I like that Ron.

Peter



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Re: Discourse

Chris Wood
Planning that already!

On Sat, 4 Jan 2020 at 18:05, Peter Merchant <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 04/01/2020 16:44, Ron Johnson wrote:
They aren't interested now, and may never be.

But regularly give them copies of database backups, zip files with media and other documents, and AIO install files anyway.  Call it your "offsite backup strategy".  Then, if they or your grandchildren do get interested, they'll have something that can be "instantly" used.

I like that Ron.

Peter

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Re: Discourse

Peter Merchant

They live on their phones these days, and don't have a computer at home, or if they do they junk it frequently.

Peter
On 04/01/2020 18:46, Chris Wood wrote:
Planning that already!

On Sat, 4 Jan 2020 at 18:05, Peter Merchant <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 04/01/2020 16:44, Ron Johnson wrote:
They aren't interested now, and may never be.

But regularly give them copies of database backups, zip files with media and other documents, and AIO install files anyway.  Call it your "offsite backup strategy".  Then, if they or your grandchildren do get interested, they'll have something that can be "instantly" used.

I like that Ron.

Peter

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Re: Discourse

enno
In reply to this post by Jeff D
Hello Jeff,
So if ancestry.com has my data embedded in various people's family trees,  can I tell ancestry.com to remove all my personal data?
And if so,  and they don't or can't,  and if I'm living within a country that has these GDPR laws,  are they breaking laws?  And are they susceptible to those huge fines?   They are making money on selling access to personal data.

It would be quite an interesting case, because I know that cousins copied living persons from my tree on My Heritage to theirs, and if their cousins do the same, it's sort of out of control.

In our laws, names with birth dates are considered unique enough to be protected, and even before the GDPR, which merely unified existing legislation, one has no right to process those without permission. One can assume that when a cousin sends some names and dates for his or her household to me, that the permission is implied, for my own processing, but not for passing those to cousins, and if I do pass them on, I'm legally responsible.

AFAIK, this won't change when I upload a tree with living persons' data to Ancestry or to a local site, unless I share it on-line. Doing the latter is illegal, and I may be held responsible. I have in fact received complaints when cousins found their names in sources that I attached to dead persons, either in the source text or in the author, and now I try to make sure that these sources are private, and I only export GEDCOM's excluding private data.

But all in all, I have not tried suing My Heritage, yet. :-)

Regards,

Enno




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