Dropping the mailing list

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Dropping the mailing list

Douglas Bainbridge
Hi Users,

Gramps developers seem to be considering a a proposal to do
away with the Users mailing list in favour of a Users forum.
I assume it's going to be put to the users and fully
discussed before anything happens.

However as a frequent non-developer user I'd like to be the
first to register my very strong opposition to the idea. I
find the several fora to which I belong a real pain to use,
particularly those that don't notify you if somebody
responds to a query you've made. The gramps mailing list by
contrast makes it easy to keep track of one's own topics as
well as keep abreast of what else is going on.

Doug

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Re: Dropping the mailing list

Ron Johnson
On 01/29/2015 06:49 AM, Douglas Bainbridge wrote:

> Hi Users,
>
> Gramps developers seem to be considering a a proposal to do
> away with the Users mailing list in favour of a Users forum.
> I assume it's going to be put to the users and fully
> discussed before anything happens.
>
> However as a frequent non-developer user I'd like to be the
> first to register my very strong opposition to the idea. I
> find the several fora to which I belong a real pain to use,
> particularly those that don't notify you if somebody
> responds to a query you've made. The gramps mailing list by
> contrast makes it easy to keep track of one's own topics as
> well as keep abreast of what else is going on.

+1

Also, most forums aren't threaded.

--
My word, man!  Don't you know your quantum statistics?


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Re: Dropping the mailing list

Nick Hall
In reply to this post by Douglas Bainbridge
On 29/01/15 12:49, Douglas Bainbridge wrote:
> Gramps developers seem to be considering a a proposal to do
> away with the Users mailing list in favour of a Users forum.
> I assume it's going to be put to the users and fully
> discussed before anything happens.

Yes.  There has been a suggestion to replace the gamps-users list with a
forum.

I was going to post to this list asking for comments.  Please feel free
to post your opinion in this thread.

Nick.


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Re: Dropping the mailing list

Michel Vuijlsteke
Absolutely, viscerally, definitely no. :)

Totally agree with Doug, on other words. 

On 29 January 2015 at 14:57, Nick Hall <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 29/01/15 12:49, Douglas Bainbridge wrote:
> Gramps developers seem to be considering a a proposal to do
> away with the Users mailing list in favour of a Users forum.
> I assume it's going to be put to the users and fully
> discussed before anything happens.

Yes.  There has been a suggestion to replace the gamps-users list with a
forum.

I was going to post to this list asking for comments.  Please feel free
to post your opinion in this thread.

Nick.


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Re: Dropping the mailing list

Gerhard Killesreiter
In reply to this post by Nick Hall
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Am 29.01.2015 um 14:57 schrieb Nick Hall:

> On 29/01/15 12:49, Douglas Bainbridge wrote:
>> Gramps developers seem to be considering a a proposal to do away
>> with the Users mailing list in favour of a Users forum. I assume
>> it's going to be put to the users and fully discussed before
>> anything happens.
>
> Yes.  There has been a suggestion to replace the gamps-users list
> with a forum.
>
> I was going to post to this list asking for comments.  Please feel
> free to post your opinion in this thread.


I am unlikely to use a forum.

Cheers
Gerhard


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Re: Dropping the mailing list

Brad Rogers
In reply to this post by Nick Hall
On Thu, 29 Jan 2015 13:57:45 +0000
Nick Hall <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Nick,

>I was going to post to this list asking for comments.  Please feel free
>to post your opinion in this thread.

In common with other posters to this thread, I dislike web forums.  They
make for a lot of work for the user.  Kind of destroys the point of
having a computer (to make life easier, not harder).  Whatever the
decision ultimately is, I doubt it'll please everyone.  I know I won't
be signing up to a web forum.

--
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
I hope I live to relive the days gone by
Old Before I Die - Robbie Williams

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Re: Dropping the mailing list

Peter (chamdo4ever)
In reply to this post by Douglas Bainbridge
I'd like to cast my vote in favor of the mailing list.

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 7:49 AM, Douglas Bainbridge
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Users,
>
> Gramps developers seem to be considering a a proposal to do
> away with the Users mailing list in favour of a Users forum.
> I assume it's going to be put to the users and fully
> discussed before anything happens.
>
> However as a frequent non-developer user I'd like to be the
> first to register my very strong opposition to the idea. I
> find the several fora to which I belong a real pain to use,
> particularly those that don't notify you if somebody
> responds to a query you've made. The gramps mailing list by
> contrast makes it easy to keep track of one's own topics as
> well as keep abreast of what else is going on.
>
> Doug

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Re: Dropping the mailing list

Adam Stein-3
In reply to this post by Gerhard Killesreiter
On Thu, 2015-01-29 at 15:05 +0100, Gerhard Killesreiter wrote:
Am 29.01.2015 um 14:57 schrieb Nick Hall:
> On 29/01/15 12:49, Douglas Bainbridge wrote:
>> Gramps developers seem to be considering a a proposal to do away
>> with the Users mailing list in favour of a Users forum. I assume
>> it's going to be put to the users and fully discussed before
>> anything happens.
> 
> Yes.  There has been a suggestion to replace the gamps-users list
> with a forum.
> 
> I was going to post to this list asking for comments.  Please feel
> free to post your opinion in this thread.


I am unlikely to use a forum.

Comes down to the push or pull model. With a mailing list, the information is pushed to you.  People like that since they don't have to do anything extra to get the information.  With a forum, typically, you have to pull the information which I would probably forget to do (go to the forum and see what new postings are there).  If the forum had a way to email users about new topics (in which case I could then decide to set a watch so each new posting in that topic is mailed to me), then I would get the same benefits as a mailing list. Otherwise, like I said, I would probably forget about it (out of sight, out of mind) and only remember the forum if I had a problem or question to post about or look to see if anybody else had already posted about the issue.

-- 
Adam ([hidden email])


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Re: Dropping the mailing list

Martin Steer-2
In reply to this post by Douglas Bainbridge
On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 12:49:02PM +0000, Douglas Bainbridge wrote:

>Hi Users,
>
>Gramps developers seem to be considering a a proposal to do
>away with the Users mailing list in favour of a Users forum.
>I assume it's going to be put to the users and fully
>discussed before anything happens.
>
>However as a frequent non-developer user I'd like to be the
>first to register my very strong opposition to the idea. I
>find the several fora to which I belong a real pain to use,
>particularly those that don't notify you if somebody
>responds to a query you've made. The gramps mailing list by
>contrast makes it easy to keep track of one's own topics as
>well as keep abreast of what else is going on.

+1



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Re: Dropping the mailing list

diannereuby
In reply to this post by Peter (chamdo4ever)
I agree with Doug. But is a mailing list much more work to manage than a
forum? I wouldn't want our devs to collapse and fade away! But given the
choice, I do prefer a mailing list.

Dianne R

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Re: Dropping the mailing list

Nick Hall
On 29/01/15 14:51, Dianne wrote:
> I agree with Doug. But is a mailing list much more work to manage than a
> forum? I wouldn't want our devs to collapse and fade away! But given the
> choice, I do prefer a mailing list.

The mailing lists are easy to manage.  I expect that a forum would
involve more work not less.

Nick.


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Re: Dropping the mailing list

Peter Merchant
In reply to this post by Adam Stein-3
On 29/01/15 14:34, Adam Stein wrote:
On Thu, 2015-01-29 at 15:05 +0100, Gerhard Killesreiter wrote:
Am 29.01.2015 um 14:57 schrieb Nick Hall:
> On 29/01/15 12:49, Douglas Bainbridge wrote:
>> Gramps developers seem to be considering a a proposal to do away
>> with the Users mailing list in favour of a Users forum. I assume
>> it's going to be put to the users and fully discussed before
>> anything happens.
> 
> Yes.  There has been a suggestion to replace the gamps-users list
> with a forum.
> 
> I was going to post to this list asking for comments.  Please feel
> free to post your opinion in this thread.


I am unlikely to use a forum.

Comes down to the push or pull model. With a mailing list, the information is pushed to you.  People like that since they don't have to do anything extra to get the information.  With a forum, typically, you have to pull the information which I would probably forget to do (go to the forum and see what new postings are there).  If the forum had a way to email users about new topics (in which case I could then decide to set a watch so each new posting in that topic is mailed to me), then I would get the same benefits as a mailing list. Otherwise, like I said, I would probably forget about it (out of sight, out of mind) and only remember the forum if I had a problem or question to post about or look to see if anybody else had already posted about the issue.

-- 
Adam ([hidden email])

I agree with Adam, but also would note that I read every mail that comes in, and there are quite a few, just so that I can clear down my unread mail list, even on topics that I have no interest in. This takes  time every day.

I use a few fora, and even then one cannot always find the topic of interest or relating to my current problem. A forum with a cross sectional arrangement   by version and by OS would help as then I would only need to be concerned with my version of Gramps on my OS.  And I would appreciate a flag to email me of new additions.  That's my ideal solution.

Peter M.

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Re: Dropping the mailing list

Peter Merchant
In reply to this post by Nick Hall
On 29/01/15 15:18, Nick Hall wrote:

> On 29/01/15 14:51, Dianne wrote:
>> I agree with Doug. But is a mailing list much more work to manage than a
>> forum? I wouldn't want our devs to collapse and fade away! But given the
>> choice, I do prefer a mailing list.
> The mailing lists are easy to manage.  I expect that a forum would
> involve more work not less.
>
> Nick.
>
> One thing that I would like, and it probably already occurs but I don't know where to find it, is a short paragraph explaining the result of a users question/discussion, intead of having to read through all of the related emails. I thank goodness that Thunderbird groups them or it would be impossible.

Peter M.

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Re: Dropping the mailing list

Stéphane Charette-2
On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 7:23 AM, PeterMerchant <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 29/01/15 15:18, Nick Hall wrote:
> On 29/01/15 14:51, Dianne wrote:
>> I agree with Doug. But is a mailing list much more work to manage than a
>> forum? I wouldn't want our devs to collapse and fade away! But given the
>> choice, I do prefer a mailing list.


Maybe something to think about:  http://www.discourse.org/faq/

Stéphane

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Re: Dropping the mailing list

Ross Gammon
On 01/29/2015 04:39 PM, Stéphane Charette wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 7:23 AM, PeterMerchant
> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     On 29/01/15 15:18, Nick Hall wrote:
>     > On 29/01/15 14:51, Dianne wrote:
>     >> I agree with Doug. But is a mailing list much more work to manage than a
>     >> forum? I wouldn't want our devs to collapse and fade away! But given the
>     >> choice, I do prefer a mailing list.
>
>
>
> Maybe something to think about:  http://www.discourse.org/faq/
>
> Stéphane
>
I prefer the list.

The Guild of One Name Studies set up a Forum in addition to their
mailing long-running list. The traffic on the mailing list seems much
the same to me as the majority seem to have stuck with it. But many
joined the Forum, and prefer the way that discussion is categorised into
topics.

Ross


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Re: Dropping the mailing list

paul womack
In reply to this post by Peter Merchant
PeterMerchant wrote:

>>
>> One thing that I would like, and it probably already occurs but I don't know where to find it, is a short paragraph explaining the result of a users question/discussion, intead of having to read through all of the related emails. I thank goodness that Thunderbird groups them or it would be impossible.

Doesn't sound practical;

* discussions and question don't always have neat "answers"
* discussions and question don't always have neat end point at which time "the answer" can be added.
* doing this would take man-hours that are already in short supply

  BugBear


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Re: Dropping the mailing list

jdebert
In reply to this post by Douglas Bainbridge
On Thu, 29 Jan 2015 12:49:02 +0000
Douglas Bainbridge <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Users,
>
> Gramps developers seem to be considering a a proposal to do
> away with the Users mailing list in favour of a Users forum.
> I assume it's going to be put to the users and fully
> discussed before anything happens.

I do not see how forums have greater practical advantages and benefits
over lists.

I've been on lists where the mods thought it would be so much better to
change to forums despite user objections. Many of those forums and
their projects no longer exist because it was too much trouble to have
to use them. Partiicpation dropped among everyone and the projects
suffered. Of all of them, only one went back to a mailing list and
that's the only one that actually thrives. The others are either gone
or stagnant.

People get tired of being required to interactively deal
with things that do not need to be dealt with interactively. It may be
popular or trendy to be interactive with everything but it's
unnecessary unless one is watching a movie or playing a game. Wrapping
mail in a prettified script you have to interact with all the time? I
think that's too much and too impractical.

I do not want to deal with forums and their problems. I just want to
read messages without distractions.

jd

>
> However as a frequent non-developer user I'd like to be the
> first to register my very strong opposition to the idea. I
> find the several fora to which I belong a real pain to use,
> particularly those that don't notify you if somebody
> responds to a query you've made. The gramps mailing list by
> contrast makes it easy to keep track of one's own topics as
> well as keep abreast of what else is going on.
>
> Doug
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> is your hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly
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> more. Take a look and join the conversation now.
> http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
> _______________________________________________ Gramps-users mailing
> list [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
>


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Re: Dropping the mailing list

jdebert
In reply to this post by Douglas Bainbridge
Also:

Forum search capabilities are worse than useless and hard to use. With
lists, at least you can search your copy with better tools.

And you can't keep a local copy of forums. Even if you could, it tends
to me more effort than it's worth.

jd


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Re: Dropping the mailing list

Benny Malengier
Yes, but there are people who like fora. Now the answer is to use nabble
http://gramps.1791082.n4.nabble.com/GRAMPS-User-f1807095.html
but that is not that great.

If we move away from sourceforge, then we need to set up mailman somewhere else. If a tool like http://www.discourse.org/faq/ could be an interesting alternative instead of mailman+nabble, should we investigate or not?

Benny

2015-01-29 19:00 GMT+01:00 jdebert <[hidden email]>:
Also:

Forum search capabilities are worse than useless and hard to use. With
lists, at least you can search your copy with better tools.

And you can't keep a local copy of forums. Even if you could, it tends
to me more effort than it's worth.

jd


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Re: Dropping the mailing list

enno
All,
> Yes, but there are people who like fora. Now the answer is to use nabble
> http://gramps.1791082.n4.nabble.com/GRAMPS-User-f1807095.html
> but that is not that great.
>
> If we move away from sourceforge, then we need to set up mailman
> somewhere else. If a tool like http://www.discourse.org/faq/ could be
> an interesting alternative instead of mailman+nabble, should we
> investigate or not?
I think there's a much easier way, which is Google Groups:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!overview

One can create an email list there, and access it through the web as
well. I'm subscribed to

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/rootsdev

myself, which I use per email most times. And I use it to read good old
newsgroups too, for which the web interface actually makes it easier for
me to select subjects I'm interested in.

On the web, threads with unread messages are bold, and one can easily
mark all messages read. Search works well too, and the groups appear to
be free from ads.

regards,

Enno


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