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Elizabeth Shown Mills source type fields

John-408
Will gramps do Elizabeth Shown Mills source reference type
field prompting? (as in her book "Evidence Explained").

If not, does anyone know when/if it will be added?

[I see that Legacy 7, Family Tree Maker 2009, RootsMagic 4,
The Master Genealogist - all only on Windoze :-( ]
ALL have it now.

Thanks.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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looking to deploy the next generation of Solaris that includes the latest
innovations from Sun and the OpenSource community. Download a copy and
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Re: Elizabeth Shown Mills source type fields

Gerald Britton-2
Never heard of the concept. Could you please explain it a bit?

Gramps has support for source types via the source name field. Is that
what you mean?



On 6/7/09, John <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Will gramps do Elizabeth Shown Mills source reference type
> field prompting? (as in her book "Evidence Explained").
>
> If not, does anyone know when/if it will be added?
>
> [I see that Legacy 7, Family Tree Maker 2009, RootsMagic 4,
> The Master Genealogist - all only on Windoze :-( ]
> ALL have it now.
>
> Thanks.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OpenSolaris 2009.06 is a cutting edge operating system for enterprises
> looking to deploy the next generation of Solaris that includes the latest
> innovations from Sun and the OpenSource community. Download a copy and
> enjoy capabilities such as Networking, Storage and Virtualization.
> Go to: http://p.sf.net/sfu/opensolaris-get
> _______________________________________________
> Gramps-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
>

--
Sent from my mobile device

Gerald Britton

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Re: Elizabeth Shown Mills source type fields

jerome
I suppose this resume is correct :
http://www.thinkgenealogy.com/2009/04/28/better-online-citations-details-part-1/



Gerald Britton a écrit :

> Never heard of the concept. Could you please explain it a bit?
>
> Gramps has support for source types via the source name field. Is that
> what you mean?
>
>
>
> On 6/7/09, John <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Will gramps do Elizabeth Shown Mills source reference type
>> field prompting? (as in her book "Evidence Explained").
>>
>> If not, does anyone know when/if it will be added?
>>
>> [I see that Legacy 7, Family Tree Maker 2009, RootsMagic 4,
>> The Master Genealogist - all only on Windoze :-( ]
>> ALL have it now.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> OpenSolaris 2009.06 is a cutting edge operating system for enterprises
>> looking to deploy the next generation of Solaris that includes the latest
>> innovations from Sun and the OpenSource community. Download a copy and
>> enjoy capabilities such as Networking, Storage and Virtualization.
>> Go to: http://p.sf.net/sfu/opensolaris-get
>> _______________________________________________
>> Gramps-users mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
>>
>



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enjoy capabilities such as Networking, Storage and Virtualization.
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Re: Elizabeth Shown Mills source type fields

jerome
> Gramps has support for source types via the source name field.

Previous urls shown by Benny :
http://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Gramps_3.1_Wiki_Manual_-_Entering_and_Editing_Data:_Detailed_-_part_2#Editing_Information_About_Sources
http://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Gramps_3.1_Wiki_Manual_-_Entering_and_Editing_Data:_Detailed_-_part_2#Editing_Source_References
http://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Sources_in_GRAMPS

I do not know what is missing on fields !

Gramps supports _EndNotes_ , which are used on *Detailled Reports* ,
*Individual Complet* Report and *NarrativeWeb* Report.


Jérôme


Jérôme a écrit :

> I suppose this resume is correct :
> http://www.thinkgenealogy.com/2009/04/28/better-online-citations-details-part-1/
>
>
>
> Gerald Britton a écrit :
>> Never heard of the concept. Could you please explain it a bit?
>>
>> Gramps has support for source types via the source name field. Is that
>> what you mean?
>>
>>
>>
>> On 6/7/09, John <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Will gramps do Elizabeth Shown Mills source reference type
>>> field prompting? (as in her book "Evidence Explained").
>>>
>>> If not, does anyone know when/if it will be added?
>>>
>>> [I see that Legacy 7, Family Tree Maker 2009, RootsMagic 4,
>>> The Master Genealogist - all only on Windoze :-( ]
>>> ALL have it now.
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> OpenSolaris 2009.06 is a cutting edge operating system for enterprises
>>> looking to deploy the next generation of Solaris that includes the latest
>>> innovations from Sun and the OpenSource community. Download a copy and
>>> enjoy capabilities such as Networking, Storage and Virtualization.
>>> Go to: http://p.sf.net/sfu/opensolaris-get
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Gramps-users mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
>>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OpenSolaris 2009.06 is a cutting edge operating system for enterprises
> looking to deploy the next generation of Solaris that includes the latest
> innovations from Sun and the OpenSource community. Download a copy and
> enjoy capabilities such as Networking, Storage and Virtualization.
> Go to: http://p.sf.net/sfu/opensolaris-get
> _______________________________________________
> Gramps-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users



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looking to deploy the next generation of Solaris that includes the latest
innovations from Sun and the OpenSource community. Download a copy and
enjoy capabilities such as Networking, Storage and Virtualization.
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Re: Elizabeth Shown Mills source type fields

John-408
Jérôme wrote:
okay. A good start. But can these fields accurately reproduce
the output style in "Evidence Explained" by Elizabeth Shown Mills?
i.e. "correct" use of italics, double quotes, commas, colons,
parentheses, semicolons, etc.?

Also, Legacy 7 prompts the user for ESM type, and then prompts
for all the required and optional fields. The "best" way for
consistent entry.

> Gramps supports _EndNotes_ , which are used on *Detailled Reports* ,
> *Individual Complet* Report and *NarrativeWeb* Report.

ESM has three styles: List (used for Bibliographies), Full Reference
(for first footnote or first endnote), Short Reference (for subsequent
footnotes or endnotes).

More and more people are "demanding" this as knowledge of her work
expands.

Thanks!

>
>
> Jérôme
>
>
> Jérôme a écrit :
>> I suppose this resume is correct :
>> http://www.thinkgenealogy.com/2009/04/28/better-online-citations-details-part-1/ 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Gerald Britton a écrit :
>>> Never heard of the concept. Could you please explain it a bit?
>>>
>>> Gramps has support for source types via the source name field. Is that
>>> what you mean?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 6/7/09, John <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> Will gramps do Elizabeth Shown Mills source reference type
>>>> field prompting? (as in her book "Evidence Explained").
>>>>
>>>> If not, does anyone know when/if it will be added?
>>>>
>>>> [I see that Legacy 7, Family Tree Maker 2009, RootsMagic 4,
>>>> The Master Genealogist - all only on Windoze :-( ]
>>>> ALL have it now.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> OpenSolaris 2009.06 is a cutting edge operating system for enterprises
>>>> looking to deploy the next generation of Solaris that includes the
>>>> latest
>>>> innovations from Sun and the OpenSource community. Download a copy and
>>>> enjoy capabilities such as Networking, Storage and Virtualization.
>>>> Go to: http://p.sf.net/sfu/opensolaris-get
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Gramps-users mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> OpenSolaris 2009.06 is a cutting edge operating system for enterprises
>> looking to deploy the next generation of Solaris that includes the
>> latest innovations from Sun and the OpenSource community. Download a
>> copy and enjoy capabilities such as Networking, Storage and
>> Virtualization. Go to: http://p.sf.net/sfu/opensolaris-get
>> _______________________________________________
>> Gramps-users mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
>
>
>

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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looking to deploy the next generation of Solaris that includes the latest
innovations from Sun and the OpenSource community. Download a copy and
enjoy capabilities such as Networking, Storage and Virtualization.
Go to: http://p.sf.net/sfu/opensolaris-get
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Re: Elizabeth Shown Mills source type fields

Gerald Britton-2
First of all, who is this EE person and in what sense is EE considered
authoritative?  Are we talking an ISO standard here or just someone's
personal preference?  Is it regarded as a reference by genealogical
societies around the world?  If so, who, specifically?  Does the
author work for the company that produces Legacy?

Second, is the EE standard fully internationalized?  Does it work
equally well for non-latin alphabets?  Is it internationally
recognized and if so, by whom, _specifically_?

Third, gramps is fully capable of producing a report in any format you
like, with whatever punctuation you like anywhere.  True, you might
need to customize a canned report, but for this sort of thing it
should be a relatively minor exercise.  If all else fails, you can
output to CSV, and import into your favorite spreadsheet to format it
the way you like.

Fourth, I take exception to your comment:

"Also, Legacy 7 prompts the user for ESM type, and then prompts
for all the required and optional fields. The "best" way for
consistent entry."

I'm not sure how much agreement you would get (especially here) that
Legacy 7 represents the best way to do anything at all.  It has an
approach that works; so does gramps.  Is one better than another?  It
depends upon who you ask.  Are McIntosh apples better than Golden
Delicious?

Finally, I haven't heard of too much demand for EE compliance in these
hallowed halls.  I've been using gramps for more than five years and a
developer for the last two years.  Today is the first time I have even
heard of EE, let alone any demand for compliance with it.

On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 5:43 PM, John<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Jérôme wrote:
>>> Gramps has support for source types via the source name field.
>>
>> Previous urls shown by Benny :
>> http://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Gramps_3.1_Wiki_Manual_-_Entering_and_Editing_Data:_Detailed_-_part_2#Editing_Information_About_Sources
>>
>> http://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Gramps_3.1_Wiki_Manual_-_Entering_and_Editing_Data:_Detailed_-_part_2#Editing_Source_References
>>
>> http://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Sources_in_GRAMPS
>>
>> I do not know what is missing on fields !
>
> okay. A good start. But can these fields accurately reproduce
> the output style in "Evidence Explained" by Elizabeth Shown Mills?
> i.e. "correct" use of italics, double quotes, commas, colons,
> parentheses, semicolons, etc.?
>
> Also, Legacy 7 prompts the user for ESM type, and then prompts
> for all the required and optional fields. The "best" way for
> consistent entry.
>
>> Gramps supports _EndNotes_ , which are used on *Detailled Reports* ,
>> *Individual Complet* Report and *NarrativeWeb* Report.
>
> ESM has three styles: List (used for Bibliographies), Full Reference
> (for first footnote or first endnote), Short Reference (for subsequent
> footnotes or endnotes).
>
> More and more people are "demanding" this as knowledge of her work
> expands.
>
> Thanks!
>
>>
>>
>> Jérôme
>>
>>
>> Jérôme a écrit :
>>> I suppose this resume is correct :
>>> http://www.thinkgenealogy.com/2009/04/28/better-online-citations-details-part-1/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Gerald Britton a écrit :
>>>> Never heard of the concept. Could you please explain it a bit?
>>>>
>>>> Gramps has support for source types via the source name field. Is that
>>>> what you mean?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 6/7/09, John <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> Will gramps do Elizabeth Shown Mills source reference type
>>>>> field prompting? (as in her book "Evidence Explained").
>>>>>
>>>>> If not, does anyone know when/if it will be added?
>>>>>
>>>>> [I see that Legacy 7, Family Tree Maker 2009, RootsMagic 4,
>>>>> The Master Genealogist - all only on Windoze :-( ]
>>>>> ALL have it now.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> OpenSolaris 2009.06 is a cutting edge operating system for enterprises
>>>>> looking to deploy the next generation of Solaris that includes the
>>>>> latest
>>>>> innovations from Sun and the OpenSource community. Download a copy and
>>>>> enjoy capabilities such as Networking, Storage and Virtualization.
>>>>> Go to: http://p.sf.net/sfu/opensolaris-get
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Gramps-users mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> OpenSolaris 2009.06 is a cutting edge operating system for enterprises
>>> looking to deploy the next generation of Solaris that includes the
>>> latest innovations from Sun and the OpenSource community. Download a
>>> copy and enjoy capabilities such as Networking, Storage and
>>> Virtualization. Go to: http://p.sf.net/sfu/opensolaris-get
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Gramps-users mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
>>
>>
>>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OpenSolaris 2009.06 is a cutting edge operating system for enterprises
> looking to deploy the next generation of Solaris that includes the latest
> innovations from Sun and the OpenSource community. Download a copy and
> enjoy capabilities such as Networking, Storage and Virtualization.
> Go to: http://p.sf.net/sfu/opensolaris-get
> _______________________________________________
> Gramps-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
>



--
Gerald Britton

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Go to: http://p.sf.net/sfu/opensolaris-get
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Re: Elizabeth Shown Mills source type fields

John-408
Gerald Britton wrote:

> First of all, who is this EE person and in what sense is EE considered
> authoritative?  Are we talking an ISO standard here or just someone's
> personal preference?  Is it regarded as a reference by genealogical
> societies around the world?  If so, who, specifically?  Does the
> author work for the company that produces Legacy?
>
> Second, is the EE standard fully internationalized?  Does it work
> equally well for non-latin alphabets?  Is it internationally
> recognized and if so, by whom, _specifically_?
>
> Third, gramps is fully capable of producing a report in any format you
> like, with whatever punctuation you like anywhere.  True, you might
> need to customize a canned report, but for this sort of thing it
> should be a relatively minor exercise.  If all else fails, you can
> output to CSV, and import into your favorite spreadsheet to format it
> the way you like.

You haven't drunk the kool aid yet! If you google the Internet for
"Elizabeth Shown Mills" and her book "Evidence Explained" you will
find a wealth of information covering all of the above topics described
by people with stronger credentials than mine (the strongest in the
genealogical field). :-)

> Fourth, I take exception to your comment:
>
> "Also, Legacy 7 prompts the user for ESM type, and then prompts
> for all the required and optional fields. The "best" way for
> consistent entry."
>
> I'm not sure how much agreement you would get (especially here) that
> Legacy 7 represents the best way to do anything at all.  It has an
> approach that works; so does gramps.  Is one better than another?  It
> depends upon who you ask.  Are McIntosh apples better than Golden
> Delicious?

All I was saying was that prompting for required and optional fields
is a sensible way to get consistency in source reference formats.
ad hoc input will give ad hoc results (generally inconsistent). Anyway,
certainly not a point worth arguing.

> Finally, I haven't heard of too much demand for EE compliance in these
> hallowed halls.  I've been using gramps for more than five years and a
> developer for the last two years.  Today is the first time I have even
> heard of EE, let alone any demand for compliance with it.

Maybe you need to "get out" more! ;-)

> On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 5:43 PM, John<[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Jérôme wrote:
>>>> Gramps has support for source types via the source name field.
>>> Previous urls shown by Benny :
>>> http://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Gramps_3.1_Wiki_Manual_-_Entering_and_Editing_Data:_Detailed_-_part_2#Editing_Information_About_Sources
>>>
>>> http://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Gramps_3.1_Wiki_Manual_-_Entering_and_Editing_Data:_Detailed_-_part_2#Editing_Source_References
>>>
>>> http://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Sources_in_GRAMPS
>>>
>>> I do not know what is missing on fields !
>> okay. A good start. But can these fields accurately reproduce
>> the output style in "Evidence Explained" by Elizabeth Shown Mills?
>> i.e. "correct" use of italics, double quotes, commas, colons,
>> parentheses, semicolons, etc.?
>>
>> Also, Legacy 7 prompts the user for ESM type, and then prompts
>> for all the required and optional fields. The "best" way for
>> consistent entry.
>>
>>> Gramps supports _EndNotes_ , which are used on *Detailled Reports* ,
>>> *Individual Complet* Report and *NarrativeWeb* Report.
>> ESM has three styles: List (used for Bibliographies), Full Reference
>> (for first footnote or first endnote), Short Reference (for subsequent
>> footnotes or endnotes).
>>
>> More and more people are "demanding" this as knowledge of her work
>> expands.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>>>
>>> Jérôme
>>>
>>>
>>> Jérôme a écrit :
>>>> I suppose this resume is correct :
>>>> http://www.thinkgenealogy.com/2009/04/28/better-online-citations-details-part-1/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gerald Britton a écrit :
>>>>> Never heard of the concept. Could you please explain it a bit?
>>>>>
>>>>> Gramps has support for source types via the source name field. Is that
>>>>> what you mean?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 6/7/09, John <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>> Will gramps do Elizabeth Shown Mills source reference type
>>>>>> field prompting? (as in her book "Evidence Explained").
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If not, does anyone know when/if it will be added?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [I see that Legacy 7, Family Tree Maker 2009, RootsMagic 4,
>>>>>> The Master Genealogist - all only on Windoze :-( ]
>>>>>> ALL have it now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OpenSolaris 2009.06 is a cutting edge operating system for enterprises
>>>>>> looking to deploy the next generation of Solaris that includes the
>>>>>> latest
>>>>>> innovations from Sun and the OpenSource community. Download a copy and
>>>>>> enjoy capabilities such as Networking, Storage and Virtualization.
>>>>>> Go to: http://p.sf.net/sfu/opensolaris-get
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Gramps-users mailing list
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> OpenSolaris 2009.06 is a cutting edge operating system for enterprises
>>>> looking to deploy the next generation of Solaris that includes the
>>>> latest innovations from Sun and the OpenSource community. Download a
>>>> copy and enjoy capabilities such as Networking, Storage and
>>>> Virtualization. Go to: http://p.sf.net/sfu/opensolaris-get
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Gramps-users mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
>>>
>>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> OpenSolaris 2009.06 is a cutting edge operating system for enterprises
>> looking to deploy the next generation of Solaris that includes the latest
>> innovations from Sun and the OpenSource community. Download a copy and
>> enjoy capabilities such as Networking, Storage and Virtualization.
>> Go to: http://p.sf.net/sfu/opensolaris-get
>> _______________________________________________
>> Gramps-users mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
>>
>
>
>

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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looking to deploy the next generation of Solaris that includes the latest
innovations from Sun and the OpenSource community. Download a copy and
enjoy capabilities such as Networking, Storage and Virtualization.
Go to: http://p.sf.net/sfu/opensolaris-get
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Re: Elizabeth Shown Mills source type fields

Gerald Britton-2
Yes. Not worth arguing about. Gramps can already do all you want and more.

>From what I can see Ms Mills has collected a set of what she considers
to be "best practices."  Perhaps they are but they are no more
compelling than others.  At any rate I see no need to do any special
work in gramps to better conform with her view of genealogy.



On 6/7/09, John <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Gerald Britton wrote:
>> First of all, who is this EE person and in what sense is EE considered
>> authoritative?  Are we talking an ISO standard here or just someone's
>> personal preference?  Is it regarded as a reference by genealogical
>> societies around the world?  If so, who, specifically?  Does the
>> author work for the company that produces Legacy?
>>
>> Second, is the EE standard fully internationalized?  Does it work
>> equally well for non-latin alphabets?  Is it internationally
>> recognized and if so, by whom, _specifically_?
>>
>> Third, gramps is fully capable of producing a report in any format you
>> like, with whatever punctuation you like anywhere.  True, you might
>> need to customize a canned report, but for this sort of thing it
>> should be a relatively minor exercise.  If all else fails, you can
>> output to CSV, and import into your favorite spreadsheet to format it
>> the way you like.
>
> You haven't drunk the kool aid yet! If you google the Internet for
> "Elizabeth Shown Mills" and her book "Evidence Explained" you will
> find a wealth of information covering all of the above topics described
> by people with stronger credentials than mine (the strongest in the
> genealogical field). :-)
>
>> Fourth, I take exception to your comment:
>>
>> "Also, Legacy 7 prompts the user for ESM type, and then prompts
>> for all the required and optional fields. The "best" way for
>> consistent entry."
>>
>> I'm not sure how much agreement you would get (especially here) that
>> Legacy 7 represents the best way to do anything at all.  It has an
>> approach that works; so does gramps.  Is one better than another?  It
>> depends upon who you ask.  Are McIntosh apples better than Golden
>> Delicious?
>
> All I was saying was that prompting for required and optional fields
> is a sensible way to get consistency in source reference formats.
> ad hoc input will give ad hoc results (generally inconsistent). Anyway,
> certainly not a point worth arguing.
>
>> Finally, I haven't heard of too much demand for EE compliance in these
>> hallowed halls.  I've been using gramps for more than five years and a
>> developer for the last two years.  Today is the first time I have even
>> heard of EE, let alone any demand for compliance with it.
>
> Maybe you need to "get out" more! ;-)
>
>> On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 5:43 PM, John<[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Jérôme wrote:
>>>>> Gramps has support for source types via the source name field.
>>>> Previous urls shown by Benny :
>>>> http://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Gramps_3.1_Wiki_Manual_-_Entering_and_Editing_Data:_Detailed_-_part_2#Editing_Information_About_Sources
>>>>
>>>> http://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Gramps_3.1_Wiki_Manual_-_Entering_and_Editing_Data:_Detailed_-_part_2#Editing_Source_References
>>>>
>>>> http://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Sources_in_GRAMPS
>>>>
>>>> I do not know what is missing on fields !
>>> okay. A good start. But can these fields accurately reproduce
>>> the output style in "Evidence Explained" by Elizabeth Shown Mills?
>>> i.e. "correct" use of italics, double quotes, commas, colons,
>>> parentheses, semicolons, etc.?
>>>
>>> Also, Legacy 7 prompts the user for ESM type, and then prompts
>>> for all the required and optional fields. The "best" way for
>>> consistent entry.
>>>
>>>> Gramps supports _EndNotes_ , which are used on *Detailled Reports* ,
>>>> *Individual Complet* Report and *NarrativeWeb* Report.
>>> ESM has three styles: List (used for Bibliographies), Full Reference
>>> (for first footnote or first endnote), Short Reference (for subsequent
>>> footnotes or endnotes).
>>>
>>> More and more people are "demanding" this as knowledge of her work
>>> expands.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jérôme
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jérôme a écrit :
>>>>> I suppose this resume is correct :
>>>>> http://www.thinkgenealogy.com/2009/04/28/better-online-citations-details-part-1/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Gerald Britton a écrit :
>>>>>> Never heard of the concept. Could you please explain it a bit?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gramps has support for source types via the source name field. Is that
>>>>>> what you mean?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 6/7/09, John <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>> Will gramps do Elizabeth Shown Mills source reference type
>>>>>>> field prompting? (as in her book "Evidence Explained").
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If not, does anyone know when/if it will be added?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [I see that Legacy 7, Family Tree Maker 2009, RootsMagic 4,
>>>>>>> The Master Genealogist - all only on Windoze :-( ]
>>>>>>> ALL have it now.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> OpenSolaris 2009.06 is a cutting edge operating system for
>>>>>>> enterprises
>>>>>>> looking to deploy the next generation of Solaris that includes the
>>>>>>> latest
>>>>>>> innovations from Sun and the OpenSource community. Download a copy
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> enjoy capabilities such as Networking, Storage and Virtualization.
>>>>>>> Go to: http://p.sf.net/sfu/opensolaris-get
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Gramps-users mailing list
>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> OpenSolaris 2009.06 is a cutting edge operating system for enterprises
>>>>> looking to deploy the next generation of Solaris that includes the
>>>>> latest innovations from Sun and the OpenSource community. Download a
>>>>> copy and enjoy capabilities such as Networking, Storage and
>>>>> Virtualization. Go to: http://p.sf.net/sfu/opensolaris-get
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Gramps-users mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
>>>>
>>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> OpenSolaris 2009.06 is a cutting edge operating system for enterprises
>>> looking to deploy the next generation of Solaris that includes the latest
>>> innovations from Sun and the OpenSource community. Download a copy and
>>> enjoy capabilities such as Networking, Storage and Virtualization.
>>> Go to: http://p.sf.net/sfu/opensolaris-get
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Gramps-users mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OpenSolaris 2009.06 is a cutting edge operating system for enterprises
> looking to deploy the next generation of Solaris that includes the latest
> innovations from Sun and the OpenSource community. Download a copy and
> enjoy capabilities such as Networking, Storage and Virtualization.
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>

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Re: Elizabeth Shown Mills source type fields

John-408
Gerald Britton wrote:
 > Yes. Not worth arguing about. Gramps can already do all you want and
more.

I guess I'll find out. I just got it running today. I have great
hopes!!! :-)

 >
 >>From what I can see Ms Mills has collected a set of what she considers
 > to be "best practices."  Perhaps they are but they are no more
 > compelling than others.  At any rate I see no need to do any special

I disagree. They *are* much more compelling than others. If not, why
have The Master Genealogist, Family Tree Maker, Legacy, and
RootsMagic all adopted her style (or at least allow you to select
that style and defines the "proper" fields of each type for you)?

 > work in gramps to better conform with her view of genealogy.

For me, gramps must have preprogrammed parameter templates from her
book, and they must be extensible and modifiable parameter templates.
If gramps allows me to define them [not available yet?], that will meet
that requirement of mine. And I'd be happy to share this definition
code with others. But if it won't let such preprogrammed definitions
to be made, it won't meet this requirement of mine (and other familiar
with ESM sourcing). We shall see. :-)

John

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Re: Elizabeth Shown Mills source type fields

Gerald Britton-2
Well, the project is open source, so feel free to customize it to do
what you want. When you're ready, submit your patches to the project
managers for consideration. That way your work will benefit many.


On 6/7/09, John <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Gerald Britton wrote:
>  > Yes. Not worth arguing about. Gramps can already do all you want and
> more.
>
> I guess I'll find out. I just got it running today. I have great
> hopes!!! :-)
>
>  >
>  >>From what I can see Ms Mills has collected a set of what she considers
>  > to be "best practices."  Perhaps they are but they are no more
>  > compelling than others.  At any rate I see no need to do any special
>
> I disagree. They *are* much more compelling than others. If not, why
> have The Master Genealogist, Family Tree Maker, Legacy, and
> RootsMagic all adopted her style (or at least allow you to select
> that style and defines the "proper" fields of each type for you)?
>
>  > work in gramps to better conform with her view of genealogy.
>
> For me, gramps must have preprogrammed parameter templates from her
> book, and they must be extensible and modifiable parameter templates.
> If gramps allows me to define them [not available yet?], that will meet
> that requirement of mine. And I'd be happy to share this definition
> code with others. But if it won't let such preprogrammed definitions
> to be made, it won't meet this requirement of mine (and other familiar
> with ESM sourcing). We shall see. :-)
>
> John
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OpenSolaris 2009.06 is a cutting edge operating system for enterprises
> looking to deploy the next generation of Solaris that includes the latest
> innovations from Sun and the OpenSource community. Download a copy and
> enjoy capabilities such as Networking, Storage and Virtualization.
> Go to: http://p.sf.net/sfu/opensolaris-get
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
>

--
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Re: Elizabeth Shown Mills source type fields

Gerald Britton-2
Just took a look at your earlier link again.  Apparently, what is
required, is the ability to enter:

   1. Author
   2. Main Title
   3. Sub Title
   4. Place of publication
   5. Publisher
   6. Year
   7. Page

for a book citation, for example.  Of course gramps has always done
all that since 1.0 (though a user would put the publisher and the
place of publication together in the "Publication Information field".
Similarly with the title/subtitle.) but has expanded what it does in
many useful ways:

1. Gramps separates the source definition from a specific reference to
it.  That is because you probably have many entries that will cite the
same source, differing only in page number or volume.  Working this
way, gramps saves enormous time on data entry, saves disk space and
memory and generally allows you to do more with less time and effort.

2. Gramps gives you the ability to not only tell _what_ the source is,
but _where_ to find it in the real world.  That is, which library or
archive you must visit to hold the source document in your hands.  So
far I don't see this concept in EE at all and I consider it to be a
serious deficiency (though I admit I might have missed it in my
cursory survey).

3. Gramps lets you share a source reference (which refers to a shared
source) among many entries.  (e.g. when a husband and wife are
mentioned on the same page of the same book)

I can see some of these in some of the other programs (though not in
EE itself, although I might have missed it), which is commendable,
though not all.

I have a question about this:

>> For me, gramps must have preprogrammed parameter templates from her
>> book, and they must be extensible and modifiable parameter templates.

The big question is, are those templates freely available and freely
distributable?  Preferably under a Creative Commons copyright or
something like it?  If so, then there is a possibility to consider
working with the EE templates at some time; if not, then I fear it
will not be possible until the copyright on them expires (50-100 years
from now depending on the country).

If you really must have those templates then I think your options are:

1. add them to gramps for your own use and consider contributing your
updates back to the project. (You might have to pay for rights,
though, which will probably preclude including them in the main
project.)  Note that gramps is very extensible and highly modifiable.
We have a very active community of contributors who do just that,
adding reports and input helpers and special displays and graphs and
more.  You are welcome to join us!

2. use one of the other programs that already has what you need.

Happy genaloging, whichever way you go!

On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 8:15 PM, Gerald Britton<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Well, the project is open source, so feel free to customize it to do
> what you want. When you're ready, submit your patches to the project
> managers for consideration. That way your work will benefit many.
>
>
> On 6/7/09, John <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Gerald Britton wrote:
>>  > Yes. Not worth arguing about. Gramps can already do all you want and
>> more.
>>
>> I guess I'll find out. I just got it running today. I have great
>> hopes!!! :-)
>>
>>  >
>>  >>From what I can see Ms Mills has collected a set of what she considers
>>  > to be "best practices."  Perhaps they are but they are no more
>>  > compelling than others.  At any rate I see no need to do any special
>>
>> I disagree. They *are* much more compelling than others. If not, why
>> have The Master Genealogist, Family Tree Maker, Legacy, and
>> RootsMagic all adopted her style (or at least allow you to select
>> that style and defines the "proper" fields of each type for you)?
>>
>>  > work in gramps to better conform with her view of genealogy.
>>
>> For me, gramps must have preprogrammed parameter templates from her
>> book, and they must be extensible and modifiable parameter templates.
>> If gramps allows me to define them [not available yet?], that will meet
>> that requirement of mine. And I'd be happy to share this definition
>> code with others. But if it won't let such preprogrammed definitions
>> to be made, it won't meet this requirement of mine (and other familiar
>> with ESM sourcing). We shall see. :-)
>>
>> John
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> OpenSolaris 2009.06 is a cutting edge operating system for enterprises
>> looking to deploy the next generation of Solaris that includes the latest
>> innovations from Sun and the OpenSource community. Download a copy and
>> enjoy capabilities such as Networking, Storage and Virtualization.
>> Go to: http://p.sf.net/sfu/opensolaris-get
>> _______________________________________________
>> Gramps-users mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
>>
>
> --
> Sent from my mobile device
>
> Gerald Britton
>



--
Gerald Britton

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Re: Elizabeth Shown Mills source type fields

Duncan Lithgow-5
In reply to this post by Gerald Britton-2
2009/6/8 Gerald Britton <[hidden email]>:
> Well, the project is open source, so feel free to customize it to do
> what you want. When you're ready, submit your patches to the project
> managers for consideration. That way your work will benefit many.

'The previous paragraph is often seen by newer users as the final
word: "code it yourself if you want to see it done". In reality it is
far from the end of hope for new ideas like John has come to 'us'
with.

The next step is not to tell Gerald to "get out more", that usually
doesn't get a positive response. Instead have a go with GRAMPS and let
us know what problems and joys you encounter. Keep sight of the ideas
about "Evidence Explained" and see how they could be implemented in
GRAMPS (if you still think they should be in a few weeks).

Personally I like the idea of pushing users, which includes pushing
me, into being more consistent in my data entry. I think that the
flexibility of GRAMPS is a problem in some ways. There are so many
fields which could be filled in, but the likely importance of each is
not indicated. I've spent many years deciding how to use the different
fields, several of which have unclear meaning such as the date field
of source objects: should it be the date the information was recorded,
the date it was found, or the date it was entered into GRAMPS?

So John, any specific changes which you think would help you as a user
are worth voicing. Does this sound like what you want: A standardised
system based on "Evidence Explained" for source records which prompts
optionally for either all information or all compulsory fields?

Duncan

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Re: Elizabeth Shown Mills source type fields

John-408
In reply to this post by John-408
Duncan Lithgow wrote:

> 2009/6/8 Gerald Britton <[hidden email]>:
>> Well, the project is open source, so feel free to customize it to do
>> what you want. When you're ready, submit your patches to the project
>> managers for consideration. That way your work will benefit many.
>
> 'The previous paragraph is often seen by newer users as the final
> word: "code it yourself if you want to see it done". In reality it is
> far from the end of hope for new ideas like John has come to 'us'
> with.
>
> The next step is not to tell Gerald to "get out more", that usually

I did put a ";-)" with that. Tongue in cheek. :-)

> doesn't get a positive response. Instead have a go with GRAMPS and let

I've got my siblings and parents in it now. Only tried entering one
source so far and it looks like the choice of fields is, umm, very
limited.

And when I click on export (was going to try and export it as
XML and look at it) it crashes. :-( More work! :-(

> us know what problems and joys you encounter. Keep sight of the ideas
> about "Evidence Explained" and see how they could be implemented in
> GRAMPS (if you still think they should be in a few weeks).

I've ceased entering genealogy for over a year because of it. I wanted
to move to Mac and away from FTM and start over once I learned how
to do "proper sourcing". I have no program where "proper sourcing"
can be done yet on the Mac. Gramps may be my last hope.

> Personally I like the idea of pushing users, which includes pushing
> me, into being more consistent in my data entry. I think that the
> flexibility of GRAMPS is a problem in some ways. There are so many
> fields which could be filled in, but the likely importance of each is
> not indicated. I've spent many years deciding how to use the different
> fields, several of which have unclear meaning such as the date field
> of source objects: should it be the date the information was recorded,
> the date it was found, or the date it was entered into GRAMPS?

I highly recommend that everyone seriously interested in genealogy
and recording its evidence read "Evidence Explained" by Elizabeth
Shown Mills. I have a crude first pass of parameterizing all 170
(3 types of each) QuickCheck models in EE. I put in the values found
in her book as the parameters, the modified html template definitions,
and wrote a fortran program to render them to rtf. I was able to
duplicate her entire syntax perfectly for all 170 of her examples
(and all 3 types). And I am able to write a program that will replace
the Mac Reunion references rtf with my rtf (just keeping the numbering
the same). One crude way to make Reunion do ESM sourcing. Not ideal,
but I have shown it is possible.

I was (am?) heading toward a stand alone package (attempting to finish
it and convert it to Java) that handled this. And the beauty of it is
that I defined the templates outside of the program, so that one could
define any parameterized reference formats one would like, but if
one wished, they could define the ESM ones. And if she didn't give
me permission (I was going to approach her when I was further along)
I could give out my program and let everyone construct their own
ESM templates from my rules (I'd have my version of her templates)
and there might actually be a "black market" in trading these plain
text templates for personal use. (which I wouldn't participate in,
of course). Anyway, I think the four programs I've mentioned have
all gained some sort of permission from her. After all, she wants
to advance the state of the art, I don't think she would make overly
restrictive demands. (I could be wrong, of course).

Anyway, proper recording and keeping of data is genealogy. A program
to display that data in charts and reports is secondary to the source
evidence "proving" the data.

> So John, any specific changes which you think would help you as a user
> are worth voicing. Does this sound like what you want: A standardised
> system based on "Evidence Explained" for source records which prompts
> optionally for either all information or all compulsory fields?

Yes. This will allow "advanced" users to easily do what they want to do,
and it can be ignored by those who don't wish to take advantage of
it. It would actually help them toward collecting the proper fields
for various data types. (it isn't obvious... see EE). I think you
will find more users interested in gramps if it does that.
Particularly with the XML generalization of GEDCOM which you
apparently have done. And the only program to have done that I know of.

Such an XML output containing ALL program data would lend itself to
an XMLtoWhateverProgram filter, where the data is formatted up in
the "best" form that other, inferior data model programs, can digest.
If one wanted to display the data in another program for some reason,
that is. If gramps does the data correctly, and has adequate charts
and graphs, there would be no need to use other programs at all.

And, in the event of the demise of the gramps project, if all data
is safely contained in a readable XML export file, there would be no
danger of ever losing any of your work. At worst, you'd just have to
program up a filter, as above, to move the data to another program.

And I do prefer open source programs to proprietary programs, whenever
possible. But it has to meet my needs. :-)

Next step, figure out why export crashes the program. (Macports to
MacBook). :-(

>
> Duncan
>

John


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Re: Elizabeth Shown Mills source type fields

John-408
In reply to this post by Gerald Britton-2
Gerald Britton wrote:

> I have a question about this:
>
>>> For me, gramps must have preprogrammed parameter templates from her
>>> book, and they must be extensible and modifiable parameter templates.
>
> The big question is, are those templates freely available and freely
> distributable?  Preferably under a Creative Commons copyright or
> something like it?  If so, then there is a possibility to consider
> working with the EE templates at some time; if not, then I fear it
> will not be possible until the copyright on them expires (50-100 years
> from now depending on the country).

See my previous post just sent. It covers some of this. ESM has
"allowed" 4 programs to do this so far. I don't know under what
conditions. I was going to approach her if my program got further.
She wants to advance the state of genealogy, I don't think she would
restrict using a parameterization of her published templates. She
published them for people to use, after all. Agreed, programming it
into a program is more than simply using it, but...

> If you really must have those templates then I think your options are:
>
> 1. add them to gramps for your own use and consider contributing your
> updates back to the project. (You might have to pay for rights,
> though, which will probably preclude including them in the main
> project.)  Note that gramps is very extensible and highly modifiable.
> We have a very active community of contributors who do just that,
> adding reports and input helpers and special displays and graphs and
> more.  You are welcome to join us!

I don't think my programming ability is up to "professional" standards.
I'd be happy to explain in detail what I've done and how I've done it
to a "real" programmer who might be interested in adding this to
gramps. (and I'd be happy approach ESM about any restrictions on it.
I've even begun composing a note to her. She posts to some newsgroups
I'm on, so I know where to send it).

If ESM wouldn't allow her templates in the program, I'd suggest what
I was doing with defining a generalized parameterized reference template
capability, and distribute that with dummy example templates. I already
made my own version of all her QuickCheck models for my personal use.
These will handle marking up to any style one wishes, ESM style
definitions could be written by anyone interested, and friends could
trade them with friends... for personal use only! I would not post
my complete version of them. I could show how to do one, and it is
trivial from an example how to write all of them! In fact, this
will allow for them changing over time, as well as creating new
ones not yet defined.

> 2. use one of the other programs that already has what you need.

They only work on Windoze. I don't do Windoze any more! (okay, I
have been checking that my Java GUI for my program works on an
XP laptop, but I hate having to do that and I'll never run
anything after XP).

> Happy genaloging, whichever way you go!

Thanks!

I've got to figure out why "export" crashes gramps. And figure out
how sources work and what fields are available in current gramps.

John

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Re: Elizabeth Shown Mills source type fields

Martin Steer-2
In reply to this post by Gerald Britton-2
Gerald Britton <[hidden email]> writes:

> 3. Gramps lets you share a source reference (which refers to a shared
> source) among many entries.  (e.g. when a husband and wife are
> mentioned on the same page of the same book)

Is this correct? How does it work? I understood that gramps merely
allowed copying and pasting of a source reference, rather than sharing.

--
Martin

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Re: Elizabeth Shown Mills source type fields

Benny Malengier
In reply to this post by John-408
John,

GRAMPS is not a bibliographic tool. That would open a complete new
world, and is overkill for a genealogy program.
To specifically manage bibliographic data, I suggest you use a
specific tool. Eg referencer http://icculus.org/referencer/
You will see that referencer has a key entry field, and GRAMPS sources
have an ID field. Setting both the same value gives you an easy
mapping and an ability to increase easily on the fields GRAMPS offers.
Do not make the mistake however of assuming GRAMPS has limited fields
and cannot hold this info itself. You will see on the source editor
the Data tab. This can hold any key value pair, so everything you
might need to add, can be added there.

Now, the important part for something like GRAMPS, is the library
behind this, bibutils:
http://www.scripps.edu/~cdputnam/software/bibutils/
This library contains all the knowledge people who work in this field
have assembled. We should learn from that, not reinvent stuff.

As you can see from that link, bibutils uses the xml scheme from the
Library of Congress. You will not find better. It can convert to the
endnote format of Thompson Reuter, just ask whatever researcher what
he uses, and most will say EndNotes.

>From the point of view of GRAMPS, it would be nice to have the
following things in the future:

* allow to export sources from GRAMPS in this bibutils xml scheme? It
would allow to import all your sources defined in GRAMPS into a real
biblio package. This would be a simple export plugin.

* select a reference programm to intereact with from GRAMPS. That is,
we don't want to make a biblio program, so we can just select an
existing one, and have integration with that program build in. Eg, for
referencer we can write a python plugin that makes a GRAMPS xml with
all the sources, and vica versa., or a one button click that opens
referencer on the entry with the same key.

* GRAMPS needs sufficient fields in the source editor so as to make
good citations possible in its own reports. This is probably your main
gripe now. We have not felt the need to increase on the present amount
of entry fields. No complaints have been received. If you would like
to have extra fields added, please do a suggestion. It is not hard to
do. If you have experience with bibliographic data, you will know that
these applications have up to hundred possible entries! GRAMPS needs
to remain simple with a clear interface.
>From your mail I have the impression however that you would like to be
able to distinguish between book/article/..., and have the fields
change accordingly? That would be quite some work. I see the benefits
of such an approach though. Please do a suggestion. Again, we cannot
allow for everything a biblio app offers, that would be overkill. An
alternative is to advocate the use of the Data tab in sources and
allow citations to build up from entries there. Eg, if the key
Subtitle is present in the data tab, then it can be used in the
citation field.
All the above needs to be considered by the developers before a
decision would be made.

* For the GRAMPS developers, a good utility should be present to
create default short and long citation entries in the reports.
I guess you want to have control over this output as a user somewhere
in the preferences? We like to set good sane defaults. That is the
easiest for all users. You are free to do a suggestion though. As you
can code, we can also help you around in the code. I believe the
present output for citations is in the file ReportBase/_Endnotes.py,
method _format_source_text. You see this is a basic function, but this
can easily be extended with a type (long, short), with lookup of extra
data from the Data tab of a source, ....


What would be interesting for you would be to make a program that
takes bibutils xml and formats it into the style of this book you
read. Our aim would be to keep the GRAMPS xml sufficiently simple with
respect with sources. So we can have a type of reference, and then
some details for this type. We can define how that maps to the
bibutils xml, and you can then format that however way you want.

Benny

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Re: Elizabeth Shown Mills source type fields

jerome
In reply to this post by John-408
> You haven't drunk the kool aid yet! If you google the Internet for
>  and her book "Evidence Explained" you will
> find a wealth of information covering all of the above topics described
> by people with stronger credentials than mine (the strongest in the
> genealogical field). :-)
> Maybe you need to "get out" more! ;-)

Like Gerald, I never heard "Evidence Explained" ... maybe because I am
french and we cannot know all publication models. Sorry ... :-[

How can we know that "Elizabeth Shown Mills" provides this
book/genealogical bible !

Seems to me that Legacy, RootsMagic, Family Tree Maker do not use the
same GEDCOM parser displayer.
http://www.thinkgenealogy.com/2009/05/03/better-online-citations-details-part-2-gedcom/
If so, what is THE way for sharing Sources between genealogists ?

Also, does it mean we must export/print data according to "Evidence
Explained" ? I am not certain that your arguments will pass around me
(France), especially if your standard is specific to a part of the
United States ...


Jérôme

John a écrit :

> Gerald Britton wrote:
>> First of all, who is this EE person and in what sense is EE considered
>> authoritative?  Are we talking an ISO standard here or just someone's
>> personal preference?  Is it regarded as a reference by genealogical
>> societies around the world?  If so, who, specifically?  Does the
>> author work for the company that produces Legacy?
>>
>> Second, is the EE standard fully internationalized?  Does it work
>> equally well for non-latin alphabets?  Is it internationally
>> recognized and if so, by whom, _specifically_?
>>
>> Third, gramps is fully capable of producing a report in any format you
>> like, with whatever punctuation you like anywhere.  True, you might
>> need to customize a canned report, but for this sort of thing it
>> should be a relatively minor exercise.  If all else fails, you can
>> output to CSV, and import into your favorite spreadsheet to format it
>> the way you like.
>
> You haven't drunk the kool aid yet! If you google the Internet for
> "Elizabeth Shown Mills" and her book "Evidence Explained" you will
> find a wealth of information covering all of the above topics described
> by people with stronger credentials than mine (the strongest in the
> genealogical field). :-)
>
>> Fourth, I take exception to your comment:
>>
>> "Also, Legacy 7 prompts the user for ESM type, and then prompts
>> for all the required and optional fields. The "best" way for
>> consistent entry."
>>
>> I'm not sure how much agreement you would get (especially here) that
>> Legacy 7 represents the best way to do anything at all.  It has an
>> approach that works; so does gramps.  Is one better than another?  It
>> depends upon who you ask.  Are McIntosh apples better than Golden
>> Delicious?
>
> All I was saying was that prompting for required and optional fields
> is a sensible way to get consistency in source reference formats.
> ad hoc input will give ad hoc results (generally inconsistent). Anyway,
> certainly not a point worth arguing.
>
>> Finally, I haven't heard of too much demand for EE compliance in these
>> hallowed halls.  I've been using gramps for more than five years and a
>> developer for the last two years.  Today is the first time I have even
>> heard of EE, let alone any demand for compliance with it.
>
> Maybe you need to "get out" more! ;-)
>
>> On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 5:43 PM, John<[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Jérôme wrote:
>>>>> Gramps has support for source types via the source name field.
>>>> Previous urls shown by Benny :
>>>> http://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Gramps_3.1_Wiki_Manual_-_Entering_and_Editing_Data:_Detailed_-_part_2#Editing_Information_About_Sources
>>>>
>>>> http://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Gramps_3.1_Wiki_Manual_-_Entering_and_Editing_Data:_Detailed_-_part_2#Editing_Source_References
>>>>
>>>> http://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Sources_in_GRAMPS
>>>>
>>>> I do not know what is missing on fields !
>>> okay. A good start. But can these fields accurately reproduce
>>> the output style in "Evidence Explained" by Elizabeth Shown Mills?
>>> i.e. "correct" use of italics, double quotes, commas, colons,
>>> parentheses, semicolons, etc.?
>>>
>>> Also, Legacy 7 prompts the user for ESM type, and then prompts
>>> for all the required and optional fields. The "best" way for
>>> consistent entry.
>>>
>>>> Gramps supports _EndNotes_ , which are used on *Detailled Reports* ,
>>>> *Individual Complet* Report and *NarrativeWeb* Report.
>>> ESM has three styles: List (used for Bibliographies), Full Reference
>>> (for first footnote or first endnote), Short Reference (for subsequent
>>> footnotes or endnotes).
>>>
>>> More and more people are "demanding" this as knowledge of her work
>>> expands.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>>> Jérôme
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jérôme a écrit :
>>>>> I suppose this resume is correct :
>>>>> http://www.thinkgenealogy.com/2009/04/28/better-online-citations-details-part-1/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Gerald Britton a écrit :
>>>>>> Never heard of the concept. Could you please explain it a bit?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gramps has support for source types via the source name field. Is that
>>>>>> what you mean?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 6/7/09, John <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>> Will gramps do Elizabeth Shown Mills source reference type
>>>>>>> field prompting? (as in her book "Evidence Explained").
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If not, does anyone know when/if it will be added?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [I see that Legacy 7, Family Tree Maker 2009, RootsMagic 4,
>>>>>>> The Master Genealogist - all only on Windoze :-( ]
>>>>>>> ALL have it now.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>> looking to deploy the next generation of Solaris that includes the
>>>>>>> latest
>>>>>>> innovations from Sun and the OpenSource community. Download a copy and
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>>>
>>
>>
>
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Re: Elizabeth Shown Mills source type fields

John-408
Jérôme wrote:

>> You haven't drunk the kool aid yet! If you google the Internet for
>>  and her book "Evidence Explained" you will
>> find a wealth of information covering all of the above topics described
>> by people with stronger credentials than mine (the strongest in the
>> genealogical field). :-)
>> Maybe you need to "get out" more! ;-)
>
> Like Gerald, I never heard "Evidence Explained" ... maybe because I am
> french and we cannot know all publication models. Sorry ... :-[
>
> How can we know that "Elizabeth Shown Mills" provides this
> book/genealogical bible !

I first found out about it when I started to use The Master Genealogist.
When installing it it asks if you want to use ESM templates, and as
I recall just free form, or one other type. I googled and began reading
about it. Then I bought her 1997 book "Evidence! Citation & Analysis
for the Family Historian", then "Evidence Explained" (2007). I also
have her two laminated "Quick Sheet" publications. There is much to
be learned about all this from googling. I'm a convert. It came at a
good time for me because I am just about to "start over" with a new
program. My first efforts didn't pay much attention to sourcing, and
now I want to begin with a new program, one that will handle ESM
sourcing from the get go, and put in all 1500 entries I have in FTM
in the new program, from scratch. And then I have several thousand
more entries ready to be put in from other sources I've collected
in the last two years, but my data entry has been frozen while I
find the right program.

[I had to give up TMG because it only runs on Windoze. They told me
that they won't be coding a native Mac version. Otherwise I would
now probably be running TMG. But I now simply refuse to run Windoze
or an emulator for it which gives you all the headaches of Windoze
and more software to update and worry about! Just say no!]

> Seems to me that Legacy, RootsMagic, Family Tree Maker do not use the
> same GEDCOM parser displayer.

And that means they and GEDCOM are *not* good solutions.

> http://www.thinkgenealogy.com/2009/05/03/better-online-citations-details-part-2-gedcom/ 
>
> If so, what is THE way for sharing Sources between genealogists ?

If you google around, you will find discussions of XML templates being
a complete replacement for GEDCOM. And from the documentation for
gramps, I get the idea that gramps has done such an XML schema that
handles ALL data that the program can contain. Hopefully, in a
general manner. That I don't know yet. But it has promise.

The point to me is that GEDCOM will never be able to do a full, seamless
exchange of data. But XML schema, if coded correctly, will be able to.
And I don't care if no other program yet exists to import it from
gramps XML exports. A program can always be written to convert the
XML to "dumb it down" and format it so you can import to other
programs what it will take in the broken GEDCOM model. Any data loss
would be because the other program is insufficient, not gramps.

> Also, does it mean we must export/print data according to "Evidence
> Explained" ? I am not certain that your arguments will pass around me

What I mean is that export/import must handle all fields and definitions
of ESM without loss. None of the programs above has a GEDCOM smart
enough to do that, in my understanding. (mainly because GEDCOM
can't handle a completely general set of genealogical data. They
all use subsets, and define proprietary things. Ugh!).

> (France), especially if your standard is specific to a part of the
> United States ...

I do remember seeing people talking about standards for other countries.
I see no reason why there can't be a European, (French?) version of
templates for Evidence Explained. I'll bet that the source fields you
use could be improved by studying ESM's book "Evidence Explained".
She has put several decades of thought into sourcing. Her book already
does give examples of French and English records.

My goal is to use ESM sourcing. It should be at least a selectable
option in all decent genealogy programs. It should be coded in a
nonstatic, extensible, modifiable, way though, because field definitions
and formats will evolve, and new types will need to be defined.
When one goes to add a source they should see prompts:

Add Source -> ESM Type -> ESM SubType -> prompts for all required and
                                          optional fields

Then the fields will be correctly formatted with ESM's templates
of commas, semicolons, italics, etc.

> Jérôme

John

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Re: Elizabeth Shown Mills source type fields

John-408
In reply to this post by Benny Malengier
Benny Malengier wrote:
> John,
>
> GRAMPS is not a bibliographic tool. That would open a complete new
> world, and is overkill for a genealogy program.

I'll ponder this and reply soon, but not right away.

John

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Re: Elizabeth Shown Mills source type fields

John-408
In reply to this post by Gerald Britton-2
It has been suggested that I move this to the developer list. I
have now subscribed, and will in a day or so post there.

Gerald Britton wrote:
> The big question is, are those templates freely available and freely
> distributable?  Preferably under a Creative Commons copyright or
> something like it?  If so, then there is a possibility to consider
> working with the EE templates at some time; if not, then I fear it
> will not be possible until the copyright on them expires (50-100 years
> from now depending on the country).

Meanwhile, I contacted Elizabeth Shown Mills last night and she
already has responded with the terms of implementing her work
in a program. No cost, and nothing I see as prohibitive. More
details later, on the developers list.

John

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