Event Reference Editor & Roles

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Event Reference Editor & Roles

GRAMPS - User mailing list
I've been experimenting, trying to figure out why Birth & Death events aren't recognized if they are re-purposed. But exploring lead my to an entirely different question.

(What do I mean by re-purposing? ... When merging a duplicate Person, rather than go through all pain of finding & then merging all those duplicate events, it seemed like some convoluted Merge steps could be bypassed by Clipboarding the extra events and re-purposing the database element for use in my next person. But when the events are placed from the clipboard, the birth/death dates don't show up in the appropriate column. So I suspected the Primary roles needed to be re-assigned.)

But I was finding it difficult to find where to view or edit the Roles. I discovered you cannot inspect the Roles from the Events panel... the Event Reference Editor is inaccessible from there.  

Even when opening the Event and then opening the Person from the References, the Event Reference Editor dialog can't be opened because that Event is already in an editor... a "Cannot edit this reference" error dialog blocks access. Instead, (after noting the Event you're interested in editing) make the Person active by right-clicking the "References" person to choose "Make Active Person" then Escaping out of all the open dialogs, switching to the People panel, opening the active Person (just press Enter) THEN finding & opening the noted Event. Whew!

Now, here's the real confusion... what benefits are there in the differences between the "Event:" dialog that appears when double-clicking an Event and the very similar "Event Reference Editor" that appears when double-clicking an Event from within a "Person:" dialog?

The "Event:" seem fairly straight-forward. Obviously the "Event:" dialog contains all the info in the "Shared information" portion of "Event Reference Editor". (Although the General column fields are redistributed above in a different layout, the remaining columns are in a different order. The "Event:" dialog has 2 extras: the Tags with "Edit the tag list" gadget & dialog actually has a descriptive title which IDs the Event being edited.)

My big confusion is the functionality in the various parts of "Reference information" portion of the "Event Reference Editor"
Part of the confusion is the column headers here. They are duplicated in the section below but do they do the same things?  The "General" is actually just the "Roles" and, although obfuscated by the General label, has a clear enough function. But it is unclear why would I attach a "Note" or "Attribute" from these columns rather than the "Shared information"?  If it is because those items might vary for Participants within a Shared event, why isn't there a "Source Citations" too? If I change the selected Participant in the References column, am I now changing the "References information" associated with the newly selected Participant?



BTW, why isn't there a "Roles" column in the References for either of those dialogs? It sure would help in troubleshooting the roles of shared event Participants.

Thanks in advance,
Brian





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Re: Event Reference Editor & Roles

Dave Scheipers
Hi Brian

I tried to re-purpose or re-use events that were no longer needed
after merging two people. I too would move the event to the clipboard
and then use it for another person. As you found out, the Role will
often be 'unknown' and unless you remember to reset it to Primary, it
can cause havoc with reports and views, etc.

Too much bother.  I now just delete the unused event from the person.
At least once a week, I'll run the Remove Unused Objects tool to clear
these no longer used events. I do it fairly often so when there is an
event to be deleted, I remember why I am deleting the event and that I
did not make a mistake.

The References show what or who is linked to the event or media or
place etc. The "I am being used by" list. Be careful going too deep
opening things through the References lists. It becomes too easy to
become confused and then editing the wrong record. If I am making
edits through the References list, it will usually be tweaking a
citation after making an adjustment to a media record or the source.

One change I believe (have not actually checked) in 5.0 is that Tags
can be added to an event in the Person's edit view and not just in the
event list edit.

HTH, Dave

On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 1:28 AM, Emyoulation--- via Gramps-users
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> I've been experimenting, trying to figure out why Birth & Death events aren't recognized if they are re-purposed. But exploring lead my to an entirely different question.
>
> (What do I mean by re-purposing? ... When merging a duplicate Person, rather than go through all pain of finding & then merging all those duplicate events, it seemed like some convoluted Merge steps could be bypassed by Clipboarding the extra events and re-purposing the database element for use in my next person. But when the events are placed from the clipboard, the birth/death dates don't show up in the appropriate column. So I suspected the Primary roles needed to be re-assigned.)
>
> But I was finding it difficult to find where to view or edit the Roles. I discovered you cannot inspect the Roles from the Events panel... the Event Reference Editor is inaccessible from there.
>
> Even when opening the Event and then opening the Person from the References, the Event Reference Editor dialog can't be opened because that Event is already in an editor... a "Cannot edit this reference" error dialog blocks access. Instead, (after noting the Event you're interested in editing) make the Person active by right-clicking the "References" person to choose "Make Active Person" then Escaping out of all the open dialogs, switching to the People panel, opening the active Person (just press Enter) THEN finding & opening the noted Event. Whew!
>
> Now, here's the real confusion... what benefits are there in the differences between the "Event:" dialog that appears when double-clicking an Event and the very similar "Event Reference Editor" that appears when double-clicking an Event from within a "Person:" dialog?
>
> The "Event:" seem fairly straight-forward. Obviously the "Event:" dialog contains all the info in the "Shared information" portion of "Event Reference Editor". (Although the General column fields are redistributed above in a different layout, the remaining columns are in a different order. The "Event:" dialog has 2 extras: the Tags with "Edit the tag list" gadget & dialog actually has a descriptive title which IDs the Event being edited.)
>
> My big confusion is the functionality in the various parts of "Reference information" portion of the "Event Reference Editor"
> Part of the confusion is the column headers here. They are duplicated in the section below but do they do the same things?  The "General" is actually just the "Roles" and, although obfuscated by the General label, has a clear enough function. But it is unclear why would I attach a "Note" or "Attribute" from these columns rather than the "Shared information"?  If it is because those items might vary for Participants within a Shared event, why isn't there a "Source Citations" too? If I change the selected Participant in the References column, am I now changing the "References information" associated with the newly selected Participant?
>
>
>
> BTW, why isn't there a "Roles" column in the References for either of those dialogs? It sure would help in troubleshooting the roles of shared event Participants.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Brian
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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Re: Event Reference Editor & Roles

Brad Rogers
In reply to this post by GRAMPS - User mailing list
On Tue, 6 Mar 2018 06:28:53 +0000 (UTC)
Emyoulation--- via Gramps-users <[hidden email]>
wrote:

Hello Emyoulation---,

>Even when opening the Event and then opening the Person from the
>References, the Event Reference Editor dialog can't be opened because
>that Event is already in an editor... a "Cannot edit this reference"
>error dialog blocks

The issue here is that the list of events deals *only* with event, not
the references to them (where the Role part is).  The role only really
makes sense when you can see the person to whom you've attached it, and
can therefore determine what their role is.  I know it can be a PITA to
switch to and from different views, but role is never going to make sense
in a list of events.

Short version;  *People* have Roles, Events, per se, don't.

--
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
Never much liked playing there anyway
Banned From The Roxy - Crass

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Re: Event Reference Editor & Roles

GRAMPS - User mailing list
In reply to this post by Dave Scheipers
Thanks Dave.  All answers help... even when they are "Don't DO that!"

I ended up doing something similar instead of merging.  Although also changing the event's ID from the auto-generated version simplified verification that the Unused event actually gets cleaned. ( So "E1234" is changed to  "deleteE1234" before removing the event from the person.) If any event actually has a citation or added a note attached, I still merge.

Merging events would be a LOT easier if there was a built-in dynamic filter for Events and that just showed the events related to the Active person or the 1 to 30 persons showing in the active Relationship. Likewise, merging branches in trees would be easier if the People had a filter to limit to the Persons shown on the currently active Relationships.  Similar filters can be created based on an specific People ID but it requires Edit the filter each time to change the ID to match that of the Active person.

In other database systems, part of the maintenance cycles was to regularly pack&re-index the data.  Unfortunately, I made the mistake of manually changing some of the automating named IDs to make them more familiar. (Things like Military service IDs for Revolutionary War service being changed to reflect the DAR ancestor ID; or, IDs of near relatives changed to match their Family ID in our printed 1977 genealogy.) .Now I'm too nervous to risk many of the 'Rebuild' repair tools.

I definitely agree about drilling down too deeply using the References.  It is easy to become confused.  So I tend to use the Clipboard to build a worklist.  Open the event, go to the References, since you can't drag a Reference to the clipboard, double-click the reference, then drag the Person (or Family) to the clipboard, and then close all the open floating window.  Then each Person or Family in the clipboard can be worked without any events being blocked from editing. 

Brian


On Tuesday, March 6, 2018, 8:49:17 AM CST, Dave Scheipers <[hidden email]> wrote:


Hi Brian

I tried to re-purpose or re-use events that were no longer needed
after merging two people. I too would move the event to the clipboard
and then use it for another person. As you found out, the Role will
often be 'unknown' and unless you remember to reset it to Primary, it
can cause havoc with reports and views, etc.

Too much bother.  I now just delete the unused event from the person.
At least once a week, I'll run the Remove Unused Objects tool to clear
these no longer used events. I do it fairly often so when there is an
event to be deleted, I remember why I am deleting the event and that I
did not make a mistake.

The References show what or who is linked to the event or media or
place etc. The "I am being used by" list. Be careful going too deep
opening things through the References lists. It becomes too easy to
become confused and then editing the wrong record. If I am making
edits through the References list, it will usually be tweaking a
citation after making an adjustment to a media record or the source.

One change I believe (have not actually checked) in 5.0 is that Tags
can be added to an event in the Person's edit view and not just in the
event list edit.

HTH, Dave

On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 1:28 AM, Emyoulation--- via Gramps-users
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> I've been experimenting, trying to figure out why Birth & Death events aren't recognized if they are re-purposed. But exploring lead my to an entirely different question.
>
> (What do I mean by re-purposing? ... When merging a duplicate Person, rather than go through all pain of finding & then merging all those duplicate events, it seemed like some convoluted Merge steps could be bypassed by Clipboarding the extra events and re-purposing the database element for use in my next person. But when the events are placed from the clipboard, the birth/death dates don't show up in the appropriate column. So I suspected the Primary roles needed to be re-assigned.)
>
> But I was finding it difficult to find where to view or edit the Roles. I discovered you cannot inspect the Roles from the Events panel... the Event Reference Editor is inaccessible from there.
>
> Even when opening the Event and then opening the Person from the References, the Event Reference Editor dialog can't be opened because that Event is already in an editor... a "Cannot edit this reference" error dialog blocks access. Instead, (after noting the Event you're interested in editing) make the Person active by right-clicking the "References" person to choose "Make Active Person" then Escaping out of all the open dialogs, switching to the People panel, opening the active Person (just press Enter) THEN finding & opening the noted Event. Whew!
>
> Now, here's the real confusion... what benefits are there in the differences between the "Event:" dialog that appears when double-clicking an Event and the very similar "Event Reference Editor" that appears when double-clicking an Event from within a "Person:" dialog?
>
> The "Event:" seem fairly straight-forward. Obviously the "Event:" dialog contains all the info in the "Shared information" portion of "Event Reference Editor". (Although the General column fields are redistributed above in a different layout, the remaining columns are in a different order. The "Event:" dialog has 2 extras: the Tags with "Edit the tag list" gadget & dialog actually has a descriptive title which IDs the Event being edited.)
>
> My big confusion is the functionality in the various parts of "Reference information" portion of the "Event Reference Editor"
> Part of the confusion is the column headers here. They are duplicated in the section below but do they do the same things?  The "General" is actually just the "Roles" and, although obfuscated by the General label, has a clear enough function. But it is unclear why would I attach a "Note" or "Attribute" from these columns rather than the "Shared information"?  If it is because those items might vary for Participants within a Shared event, why isn't there a "Source Citations" too? If I change the selected Participant in the References column, am I now changing the "References information" associated with the newly selected Participant?
>
>
>
> BTW, why isn't there a "Roles" column in the References for either of those dialogs? It sure would help in troubleshooting the roles of shared event Participants.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Brian
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Gramps-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
> https://gramps-project.org
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Re: Event Reference Editor & Roles

GRAMPS - User mailing list
In reply to this post by Brad Rogers
Thanks Brad. 

The interface doesn't really reinforce so clean a distinction between Events and Roles. Logically, only Participants may have a Role in an Event.  But maybe my confusion results from a combination of nomenclature and similarity of the interface. But then again, as in database design, understanding the difference between data and pointers to data is a stumbling point for many people.

When I saw the "Event Reference Editor", its overwhelming similarity to the "Event:" made me jump to incorrect conclusions.  Because I could edit both the relationship characteristics of the pointer to the data in the "Event References Editor" and ALSO the actual data, the difference between data & pointers became blurred. At this point, the "Event:" editor became a crippled version of the other feature... but with a couple extras.

Brian


On Tuesday, March 6, 2018, 10:45:06 AM CST, Brad Rogers <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Tue, 6 Mar 2018 06:28:53 +0000 (UTC)
Emyoulation--- via Gramps-users <[hidden email]>
wrote:

Hello Emyoulation---,


>Even when opening the Event and then opening the Person from the
>References, the Event Reference Editor dialog can't be opened because
>that Event is already in an editor... a "Cannot edit this reference"
>error dialog blocks


The issue here is that the list of events deals *only* with event, not
the references to them (where the Role part is).  The role only really
makes sense when you can see the person to whom you've attached it, and
can therefore determine what their role is.  I know it can be a PITA to
switch to and from different views, but role is never going to make sense
in a list of events.

Short version;  *People* have Roles, Events, per se, don't.

--
Regards  _
        / )          "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
Never much liked playing there anyway
Banned From The Roxy - Crass
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Re: Event Reference Editor & Roles

Dave Scheipers
In reply to this post by GRAMPS - User mailing list
Hi Brian

As to merging events, this will become easier in the next version of
Gramps. In 5.0 beta1, we are able to tag events from within the
person's edit screen. I created a Tag 'MERGE' and made it a hot pink
color. I was concerned when I had to actually merge 2 John Smiths so I
created the tag as a safety net. Tagging events in the person's record
then going to the Events view and filtering for the tag will make it
easy to merge events.

Altering ID's is tempting. Gramps only cares that each ID is
unique.There is a tool for place records -- GetGOV -- that uses its
own ID numbers. If you alter IDs never run the Reorder Gramps ID tool.
The tool will reset all IDs to fit the model you set in Edit >>
Preferences. And by the way, the tool does not actually resort the IDs
filling in for ID's that have been deleted and no long exist. The tool
only makes the ID conform to the Preference settings --- a leading
letter/s and the number of digits.

Dave

On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 8:00 PM, [hidden email]
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks Dave.  All answers help... even when they are "Don't DO that!"
>
> I ended up doing something similar instead of merging.  Although also
> changing the event's ID from the auto-generated version simplified
> verification that the Unused event actually gets cleaned. ( So "E1234" is
> changed to  "deleteE1234" before removing the event from the person.) If any
> event actually has a citation or added a note attached, I still merge.
>
> Merging events would be a LOT easier if there was a built-in dynamic filter
> for Events and that just showed the events related to the Active person or
> the 1 to 30 persons showing in the active Relationship. Likewise, merging
> branches in trees would be easier if the People had a filter to limit to the
> Persons shown on the currently active Relationships.  Similar filters can be
> created based on an specific People ID but it requires Edit the filter each
> time to change the ID to match that of the Active person.
>
> In other database systems, part of the maintenance cycles was to regularly
> pack&re-index the data.  Unfortunately, I made the mistake of manually
> changing some of the automating named IDs to make them more familiar.
> (Things like Military service IDs for Revolutionary War service being
> changed to reflect the DAR ancestor ID; or, IDs of near relatives changed to
> match their Family ID in our printed 1977 genealogy.) .Now I'm too nervous
> to risk many of the 'Rebuild' repair tools.
>
> I definitely agree about drilling down too deeply using the References.  It
> is easy to become confused.  So I tend to use the Clipboard to build a
> worklist.  Open the event, go to the References, since you can't drag a
> Reference to the clipboard, double-click the reference, then drag the Person
> (or Family) to the clipboard, and then close all the open floating window.
> Then each Person or Family in the clipboard can be worked without any events
> being blocked from editing.
>
> Brian
>
>
> On Tuesday, March 6, 2018, 8:49:17 AM CST, Dave Scheipers
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Brian
>
> I tried to re-purpose or re-use events that were no longer needed
> after merging two people. I too would move the event to the clipboard
> and then use it for another person. As you found out, the Role will
> often be 'unknown' and unless you remember to reset it to Primary, it
> can cause havoc with reports and views, etc.
>
> Too much bother.  I now just delete the unused event from the person.
> At least once a week, I'll run the Remove Unused Objects tool to clear
> these no longer used events. I do it fairly often so when there is an
> event to be deleted, I remember why I am deleting the event and that I
> did not make a mistake.
>
> The References show what or who is linked to the event or media or
> place etc. The "I am being used by" list. Be careful going too deep
> opening things through the References lists. It becomes too easy to
> become confused and then editing the wrong record. If I am making
> edits through the References list, it will usually be tweaking a
> citation after making an adjustment to a media record or the source.
>
> One change I believe (have not actually checked) in 5.0 is that Tags
> can be added to an event in the Person's edit view and not just in the
> event list edit.
>
> HTH, Dave
>
> On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 1:28 AM, Emyoulation--- via Gramps-users
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I've been experimenting, trying to figure out why Birth & Death events
>> aren't recognized if they are re-purposed. But exploring lead my to an
>> entirely different question.
>>
>> (What do I mean by re-purposing? ... When merging a duplicate Person,
>> rather than go through all pain of finding & then merging all those
>> duplicate events, it seemed like some convoluted Merge steps could be
>> bypassed by Clipboarding the extra events and re-purposing the database
>> element for use in my next person. But when the events are placed from the
>> clipboard, the birth/death dates don't show up in the appropriate column. So
>> I suspected the Primary roles needed to be re-assigned.)
>>
>> But I was finding it difficult to find where to view or edit the Roles. I
>> discovered you cannot inspect the Roles from the Events panel... the Event
>> Reference Editor is inaccessible from there.
>>
>> Even when opening the Event and then opening the Person from the
>> References, the Event Reference Editor dialog can't be opened because that
>> Event is already in an editor... a "Cannot edit this reference" error dialog
>> blocks access. Instead, (after noting the Event you're interested in
>> editing) make the Person active by right-clicking the "References" person to
>> choose "Make Active Person" then Escaping out of all the open dialogs,
>> switching to the People panel, opening the active Person (just press Enter)
>> THEN finding & opening the noted Event. Whew!
>>
>> Now, here's the real confusion... what benefits are there in the
>> differences between the "Event:" dialog that appears when double-clicking an
>> Event and the very similar "Event Reference Editor" that appears when
>> double-clicking an Event from within a "Person:" dialog?
>>
>> The "Event:" seem fairly straight-forward. Obviously the "Event:" dialog
>> contains all the info in the "Shared information" portion of "Event
>> Reference Editor". (Although the General column fields are redistributed
>> above in a different layout, the remaining columns are in a different order.
>> The "Event:" dialog has 2 extras: the Tags with "Edit the tag list" gadget &
>> dialog actually has a descriptive title which IDs the Event being edited.)
>>
>> My big confusion is the functionality in the various parts of "Reference
>> information" portion of the "Event Reference Editor"
>> Part of the confusion is the column headers here. They are duplicated in
>> the section below but do they do the same things?  The "General" is actually
>> just the "Roles" and, although obfuscated by the General label, has a clear
>> enough function. But it is unclear why would I attach a "Note" or
>> "Attribute" from these columns rather than the "Shared information"?  If it
>> is because those items might vary for Participants within a Shared event,
>> why isn't there a "Source Citations" too? If I change the selected
>> Participant in the References column, am I now changing the "References
>> information" associated with the newly selected Participant?
>>
>>
>>
>> BTW, why isn't there a "Roles" column in the References for either of
>> those dialogs? It sure would help in troubleshooting the roles of shared
>> event Participants.
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>> Brian
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> Gramps-users mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
>> https://gramps-project.org

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