French research question

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French research question

enno
Hello all,

Since I know that we have a couple of French speaking users on the list,
and I read a little, but don't speak that much, I hope that it's
appropriate to ask some questions about this document:

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5449661m/f50.image.r=borgsteede

This document tells that a remote cousin, father Alfred Borgsteede,
embarked on a ship to Brasil, in Amsterdam, and I am somewhat lost about
the reason why this was published in France, and how he was connected to
the congregation of the Holy Hearts of Picpus.

Can anyone enlighten me on this? I can do some Dutch lookups in return.

Regards,

Enno




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Re: French research question

GRAMPS - User mailing list

Goed morgen,

This is the last column of a periodical dedicated to news about missionary works. From what I could grasp, it doesn't appear to be connected with any specific community, thus the news come from all religious orders.

The page anounces departures of missionaries just like newspapers in harbour-cities reported ship moves.

From information I could quickly gather, la congrégation des Sacrés-Cœurs de Jésus et de Marie (latin : Congregatio Sacrorum Cordium Iesu et Mariae necnon adorationis perpetuae Sanctissimi Sacramenti altaris) was established in 1793 during the Terror era of the French Revolution in order to help to spread devotion to the Sacred-Heart and to take care of priests under covert activity. The see was moved to the Paris Picpus borough in 1805.

The rule contains vows for missionary apostolate, which explains why, in 1825, the Holy See assigns the order to Sandwich Islands evangelisation, and later other archipelagoes.

I can't know how your remote cousin became connected with the "Picpusians", but you should try to contact any archivist of the order. Due to a dramatic drop in vocations, the order is no longer active in France. The Superior General is now a Spaniard. You should try an Internet search with Congregación de los Sagrados Corazones [de Jesús y de María y de la Adoración Perpetua del Santísimo Sacramento del Altar] to find a contact.

I had a similar problem with a great-uncle and found a site with the list of all order members since the beginning of the XIX° century. I received a full résumé after mail exchange with the archivist.

Regards,

André


Le 25/11/2018 à 13:19, Enno Borgsteede a écrit :
Hello all,

Since I know that we have a couple of French speaking users on the list, and I read a little, but don't speak that much, I hope that it's appropriate to ask some questions about this document:

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5449661m/f50.image.r=borgsteede

This document tells that a remote cousin, father Alfred Borgsteede, embarked on a ship to Brasil, in Amsterdam, and I am somewhat lost about the reason why this was published in France, and how he was connected to the congregation of the Holy Hearts of Picpus.

Can anyone enlighten me on this? I can do some Dutch lookups in return.

Regards,

Enno




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Re: French research question

John W. Kitz-3
In reply to this post by enno
Enno,

On 2018-11-25 13:19, Enno Borgsteede wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> Since I know that we have a couple of French speaking users on the
> list, and I read a little, but don't speak that much, I hope that it's
> appropriate to ask some questions about this document:
>
> https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5449661m/f50.image.r=borgsteede
>

Bearing in mind that this list, to the best of my knowledge, is intended
to exchange ideas, etc. about Gramps and its use, I'd say you'd need to
post questions like these elsewhere. However, since the question has
already been posted I'll try to provide some answers anyway.

> This document tells that a remote cousin, father Alfred Borgsteede,
> embarked on a ship to Brasil, in Amsterdam, and I am somewhat lost
> about the reason why this was published in France,

According to an entry[1] on archieven.nl (I quote in Dutch): "De
Congregatie van de Heilige Harten van Jezus en Maria wordt in 1800
**gesticht door pater Marie-Joseph Coudrin en moeder Henriette Aymer de
la Chevalerie. De zetel van de congregatie bevindt zich aanvankelijk in
de Rue de Picpus in Parijs**, hetgeen de alternatieve naam voor de
congregatie verklaart: paters en zusters van Picpus. (...) Tussen 1903
en 1940 wordt er door de Zusters van de HH. Harten **in Nederland
vastgehouden aan de Franse taal en tradities**. Dit leidt ertoe dat het
aantal Nederlandse intredingen laag blijft in vergelijking met andere
zustercongregaties in Limburg: slechts 24 Nederlandse meisjes worden lid
van de congregatie. **Zij gaan naar Parijs om daar hun noviciaat te
doorlopen.**"

[1]
https://www.archieven.nl/nl/zoeken?mivast=0&mizig=210&miadt=1212&miaet=1&micode=AR-Z143&minr=1083649&miview=inv2

Which suggests there have been and maybe still are (strong) ties between
the Congregation of the Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary - as explained
in the Dutch excerpt above, an alternative name for the Congregation of
the Sacred Hearts of Picpus - and France and consequently the French
language, which in turn possibly explains why the text you're referring
to has been published in French in France.

If you search for the word "Picpus" in this
(https://www.delpher.nl/nl/boeken1/gview?query=%22Congregatie+van+de+Heilige+Harten+van+Picpus%22&coll=boeken1&identifier=vtiyXgYzHqYC)
book you'll be presented with several results. I'll leave it up to you
to read the results and decide whether or not they are relevant to your
questions and research in general.

> and how he was
> connected to the congregation of the Holy Hearts of Picpus.
>

As for the details of the entry that you're referring to in your initial
post. I think it is safe to conclude it's a list of dates, in the months
between June and November, on which a number of named members of the
congregation departed for some destination, such as the Cook Islands,
the US or, in the case of Alfred Borgsteede and several others, Brasil,
etc. Unfortunately the list does not contain a year, like the one below
it, which makes it more difficult to try to find a name of a ship on
which Alfred may have sailed from Amsterdam for Brasil.

To find out more you could consider physically visiting the
Erfgoedcentrum Nederlands Kloosterleven or, in case you're on Facebook,
try posting any questions that you might have to
https://www.facebook.com/ErfgoedcentrumNederlandsKloosterleven.

> Can anyone enlighten me on this? I can do some Dutch lookups in return.
>
> Regards,
>
> Enno
>

If you have any other questions that are specific to the French text you
referred in your post please let me know.

I hope this helps, regards, Jk.


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Re: French research question

John W. Kitz-3
Enno,

Even though there are (quite) a number of unknowns, such as the missing
year on the list, was celibacy a requirement for membership of the
congregation, is it the same person or not, etc., I'm posting this
anyway. According to an entry in volume 26067 of a Dutch newspaper
entitled "Algemeen Handelsblad" published on November 12, 1909 a
gentleman named J.A. Borgsteede and his wife are reported to be destined
to depart from Amsterdam bound for Batavia, Indonesia, aboard a vessel
named S.S. "Rembrandt"[2],[3].

[2] https://resolver.kb.nl/resolve?urn=ddd:010340519:mpeg21:a0162
[3]
https://www.dordtenazoeker.nl/inhouddordtenazoeker/passagierslijsten_oostindie/55/REMBRANDT

Regards, Jk.

On 2018-11-25 15:34, John W. Kitz wrote:

> Enno,
>
> On 2018-11-25 13:19, Enno Borgsteede wrote:
>> Hello all,
>>
>> Since I know that we have a couple of French speaking users on the
>> list, and I read a little, but don't speak that much, I hope that it's
>> appropriate to ask some questions about this document:
>>
>> https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5449661m/f50.image.r=borgsteede
>>
>
> Bearing in mind that this list, to the best of my knowledge, is
> intended to exchange ideas, etc. about Gramps and its use, I'd say
> you'd need to post questions like these elsewhere. However, since the
> question has already been posted I'll try to provide some answers
> anyway.
>
>> This document tells that a remote cousin, father Alfred Borgsteede,
>> embarked on a ship to Brasil, in Amsterdam, and I am somewhat lost
>> about the reason why this was published in France,
>
> According to an entry[1] on archieven.nl (I quote in Dutch): "De
> Congregatie van de Heilige Harten van Jezus en Maria wordt in 1800
> **gesticht door pater Marie-Joseph Coudrin en moeder Henriette Aymer
> de la Chevalerie. De zetel van de congregatie bevindt zich
> aanvankelijk in de Rue de Picpus in Parijs**, hetgeen de alternatieve
> naam voor de congregatie verklaart: paters en zusters van Picpus.
> (...) Tussen 1903 en 1940 wordt er door de Zusters van de HH. Harten
> **in Nederland vastgehouden aan de Franse taal en tradities**. Dit
> leidt ertoe dat het aantal Nederlandse intredingen laag blijft in
> vergelijking met andere zustercongregaties in Limburg: slechts 24
> Nederlandse meisjes worden lid van de congregatie. **Zij gaan naar
> Parijs om daar hun noviciaat te doorlopen.**"
>
> [1]
> https://www.archieven.nl/nl/zoeken?mivast=0&mizig=210&miadt=1212&miaet=1&micode=AR-Z143&minr=1083649&miview=inv2
>
> Which suggests there have been and maybe still be (strong) ties
> between the Congregation of the Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary - as
> explained in the Dutch excerpt above, an alternative name for the
> Congregation of the Sacred Hearts of Picpus - and France and
> consequently the French language, which in turn possibly explains why
> the text you're referring to has been published in French in France.
>
> If you search for the word "Picpus" in this
> (https://www.delpher.nl/nl/boeken1/gview?query=%22Congregatie+van+de+Heilige+Harten+van+Picpus%22&coll=boeken1&identifier=vtiyXgYzHqYC)
> book you'll be presented with several results. I'll leave it up to you
> to read the results and decide whether or not they are relevant to
> your questions and research in general.
>
>> and how he was
>> connected to the congregation of the Holy Hearts of Picpus.
>>
>
> As for the details of the entry that you're referring to in your
> initial post. I think it is safe to conclude it's a list of dates, in
> the months between June and November, on which a number of named
> members of the congregation departed for some destination, such as the
> Cook Islands, the US or, in the case of Alfred Borgsteede and several
> others, Brasil, etc. Unfortunately the list does not contain a year,
> like the one below it, which makes it more difficult to try to find a
> name of a ship on which Alfred may have sailed from Amsterdam for
> Brasil.
>
> To find out more you could consider physically visiting the
> Erfgoedcentrum Nederlands Kloosterleven or, in case you're on
> Facebook, try posting any questions that you might have to
> https://www.facebook.com/ErfgoedcentrumNederlandsKloosterleven.
>
>> Can anyone enlighten me on this? I can do some Dutch lookups in
>> return.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Enno
>>
>
> If you have any other questions that are specific to the French text
> you referred in your post please let me know.
>
> I hope this helps, regards, Jk.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gramps-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
> https://gramps-project.org


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Re: French research question

John W. Kitz-3
Enno,

I've addded links to additional information about the "Congrégation des
Sacrés-Cœurs de Jésus et de Marie" also referred to as "Pères et
religieuses des Sacrés-Cœurs de Picpus".

On 2018-11-25 15:55, John W. Kitz wrote:

> Enno,
>
> Even though there are (quite) a number of unknowns, such as the
> missing year on the list, was celibacy a requirement for membership of
> the congregation, is it the same person or not, etc., I'm posting this
> anyway. According to an entry in volume 26067 of a Dutch newspaper
> entitled "Algemeen Handelsblad" published on November 12, 1909 a
> gentleman named J.A. Borgsteede and his wife are reported to be
> destined to depart from Amsterdam bound for Batavia, Indonesia, aboard
> a vessel named S.S. "Rembrandt"[2],[3].
>
> [2] https://resolver.kb.nl/resolve?urn=ddd:010340519:mpeg21:a0162
> [3]
> https://www.dordtenazoeker.nl/inhouddordtenazoeker/passagierslijsten_oostindie/55/REMBRANDT
>
> Regards, Jk.
>
> On 2018-11-25 15:34, John W. Kitz wrote:
>> Enno,
>>
>> On 2018-11-25 13:19, Enno Borgsteede wrote:
>>> Hello all,
>>>
>>> Since I know that we have a couple of French speaking users on the
>>> list, and I read a little, but don't speak that much, I hope that
>>> it's
>>> appropriate to ask some questions about this document:
>>>
>>> https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5449661m/f50.image.r=borgsteede
>>>
>>
>> Bearing in mind that this list, to the best of my knowledge, is
>> intended to exchange ideas, etc. about Gramps and its use, I'd say
>> you'd need to post questions like these elsewhere. However, since the
>> question has already been posted I'll try to provide some answers
>> anyway.
>>
>>> This document tells that a remote cousin, father Alfred Borgsteede,
>>> embarked on a ship to Brasil, in Amsterdam, and I am somewhat lost
>>> about the reason why this was published in France,
>>
>> According to an entry[1] on archieven.nl (I quote in Dutch): "De
>> Congregatie van de Heilige Harten van Jezus en Maria wordt in 1800
>> **gesticht door pater Marie-Joseph Coudrin en moeder Henriette Aymer
>> de la Chevalerie. De zetel van de congregatie bevindt zich
>> aanvankelijk in de Rue de Picpus in Parijs**, hetgeen de alternatieve
>> naam voor de congregatie verklaart: paters en zusters van Picpus.
>> (...) Tussen 1903 en 1940 wordt er door de Zusters van de HH. Harten
>> **in Nederland vastgehouden aan de Franse taal en tradities**. Dit
>> leidt ertoe dat het aantal Nederlandse intredingen laag blijft in
>> vergelijking met andere zustercongregaties in Limburg: slechts 24
>> Nederlandse meisjes worden lid van de congregatie. **Zij gaan naar
>> Parijs om daar hun noviciaat te doorlopen.**"
>>
>> [1]
>> https://www.archieven.nl/nl/zoeken?mivast=0&mizig=210&miadt=1212&miaet=1&micode=AR-Z143&minr=1083649&miview=inv2
>>
>> Which suggests there have been and maybe still are (strong) ties
>> between the Congregation of the Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary[3],[4]
>> - as
>> explained in the Dutch excerpt above, an alternative name for the
>> Congregation of the Sacred Hearts of Picpus - and France and
>> consequently the French language, which in turn possibly explains why
>> the text you're referring to has been published in French in France.
>>

[3]
https://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=P%C3%A8res_et_religieuses_des_Sacr%C3%A9s-C%C5%93urs_de_Picpus&redirect=no
[4]
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congr%C3%A9gation_des_Sacr%C3%A9s-C%C5%93urs_de_J%C3%A9sus_et_de_Marie

>> If you search for the word "Picpus" in this
>> (https://www.delpher.nl/nl/boeken1/gview?query=%22Congregatie+van+de+Heilige+Harten+van+Picpus%22&coll=boeken1&identifier=vtiyXgYzHqYC)
>> book you'll be presented with several results. I'll leave it up to you
>> to read the results and decide whether or not they are relevant to
>> your questions and research in general.
>>
>>> and how he was
>>> connected to the congregation of the Holy Hearts of Picpus.
>>>
>>
>> As for the details of the entry that you're referring to in your
>> initial post. I think it is safe to conclude it's a list of dates, in
>> the months between June and November, on which a number of named
>> members of the congregation departed for some destination, such as the
>> Cook Islands, the US or, in the case of Alfred Borgsteede and several
>> others, Brasil, etc. Unfortunately the list does not contain a year,
>> like the one below it, which makes it more difficult to try to find a
>> name of a ship on which Alfred may have sailed from Amsterdam for
>> Brasil.
>>
>> To find out more you could consider physically visiting the
>> Erfgoedcentrum Nederlands Kloosterleven or, in case you're on
>> Facebook, try posting any questions that you might have to
>> https://www.facebook.com/ErfgoedcentrumNederlandsKloosterleven.
>>
>>> Can anyone enlighten me on this? I can do some Dutch lookups in
>>> return.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Enno
>>>
>>
>> If you have any other questions that are specific to the French text
>> you referred in your post please let me know.

I hope this helps, regards, Jk.


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Re: French research question

John W. Kitz-3
Enno,

To the extent that the French language is an issue I've also added a
link to information about the "Congregation of the Sacred Hearts of
Jesus and Mary" and the "Congregatie van de Heilige Harten van Jezus en
Maria" in English and Dutch respectively.

On 2018-11-25 16:08, John W. Kitz wrote:

> Enno,
>
> I've addded links to additional information about the "Congrégation
> des Sacrés-Cœurs de Jésus et de Marie" also referred to as "Pères et
> religieuses des Sacrés-Cœurs de Picpus".
>
> On 2018-11-25 15:55, John W. Kitz wrote:
>> Enno,
>>
>> Even though there are (quite) a number of unknowns, such as the
>> missing year on the list, was celibacy a requirement for membership of
>> the congregation, is it the same person or not, etc., I'm posting this
>> anyway. According to an entry in volume 26067 of a Dutch newspaper
>> entitled "Algemeen Handelsblad" published on November 12, 1909 a
>> gentleman named J.A. Borgsteede and his wife are reported to be
>> destined to depart from Amsterdam bound for Batavia, Indonesia, aboard
>> a vessel named S.S. "Rembrandt"[2],[3].
>>
>> [2] https://resolver.kb.nl/resolve?urn=ddd:010340519:mpeg21:a0162
>> [3]
>> https://www.dordtenazoeker.nl/inhouddordtenazoeker/passagierslijsten_oostindie/55/REMBRANDT
>>
>> Regards, Jk.
>>
>> On 2018-11-25 15:34, John W. Kitz wrote:
>>> Enno,
>>>
>>> On 2018-11-25 13:19, Enno Borgsteede wrote:
>>>> Hello all,
>>>>
>>>> Since I know that we have a couple of French speaking users on the
>>>> list, and I read a little, but don't speak that much, I hope that
>>>> it's
>>>> appropriate to ask some questions about this document:
>>>>
>>>> https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5449661m/f50.image.r=borgsteede
>>>>
>>>
>>> Bearing in mind that this list, to the best of my knowledge, is
>>> intended to exchange ideas, etc. about Gramps and its use, I'd say
>>> you'd need to post questions like these elsewhere. However, since the
>>> question has already been posted I'll try to provide some answers
>>> anyway.
>>>
>>>> This document tells that a remote cousin, father Alfred Borgsteede,
>>>> embarked on a ship to Brasil, in Amsterdam, and I am somewhat lost
>>>> about the reason why this was published in France,
>>>
>>> According to an entry[1] on archieven.nl (I quote in Dutch): "De
>>> Congregatie van de Heilige Harten van Jezus en Maria wordt in 1800
>>> **gesticht door pater Marie-Joseph Coudrin en moeder Henriette Aymer
>>> de la Chevalerie. De zetel van de congregatie bevindt zich
>>> aanvankelijk in de Rue de Picpus in Parijs**, hetgeen de alternatieve
>>> naam voor de congregatie verklaart: paters en zusters van Picpus.
>>> (...) Tussen 1903 en 1940 wordt er door de Zusters van de HH. Harten
>>> **in Nederland vastgehouden aan de Franse taal en tradities**. Dit
>>> leidt ertoe dat het aantal Nederlandse intredingen laag blijft in
>>> vergelijking met andere zustercongregaties in Limburg: slechts 24
>>> Nederlandse meisjes worden lid van de congregatie. **Zij gaan naar
>>> Parijs om daar hun noviciaat te doorlopen.**"
>>>
>>> [1]
>>> https://www.archieven.nl/nl/zoeken?mivast=0&mizig=210&miadt=1212&miaet=1&micode=AR-Z143&minr=1083649&miview=inv2
>>>
>>> Which suggests there have been and maybe still are (strong) ties
>>> between the Congregation of the Sacred Hearts of Jesus and
>>> Mary[3],[4] - as
>>> explained in the Dutch excerpt above, an alternative name for the
>>> Congregation of the Sacred Hearts of Picpus - and France and
>>> consequently the French language, which in turn possibly explains why
>>> the text you're referring to has been published in French in France.
>>>
>
> [3]
> https://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=P%C3%A8res_et_religieuses_des_Sacr%C3%A9s-C%C5%93urs_de_Picpus&redirect=no
> [4]
> https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congr%C3%A9gation_des_Sacr%C3%A9s-C%C5%93urs_de_J%C3%A9sus_et_de_Marie

[5]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congregation_of_the_Sacred_Hearts_of_Jesus_and_Mary
[6]
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congregatie_van_de_Heilige_Harten_van_Jezus_en_Maria

>
>>> If you search for the word "Picpus" in this
>>> (https://www.delpher.nl/nl/boeken1/gview?query=%22Congregatie+van+de+Heilige+Harten+van+Picpus%22&coll=boeken1&identifier=vtiyXgYzHqYC)
>>> book you'll be presented with several results. I'll leave it up to
>>> you
>>> to read the results and decide whether or not they are relevant to
>>> your questions and research in general.
>>>
>>>> and how he was
>>>> connected to the congregation of the Holy Hearts of Picpus.
>>>>
>>>
>>> As for the details of the entry that you're referring to in your
>>> initial post. I think it is safe to conclude it's a list of dates, in
>>> the months between June and November, on which a number of named
>>> members of the congregation departed for some destination, such as
>>> the
>>> Cook Islands, the US or, in the case of Alfred Borgsteede and several
>>> others, Brasil, etc. Unfortunately the list does not contain a year,
>>> like the one below it, which makes it more difficult to try to find a
>>> name of a ship on which Alfred may have sailed from Amsterdam for
>>> Brasil.
>>>
>>> To find out more you could consider physically visiting the
>>> Erfgoedcentrum Nederlands Kloosterleven or, in case you're on
>>> Facebook, try posting any questions that you might have to
>>> https://www.facebook.com/ErfgoedcentrumNederlandsKloosterleven.
>>>
>>>> Can anyone enlighten me on this? I can do some Dutch lookups in
>>>> return.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Enno
>>>>
>>>
>>> If you have any other questions that are specific to the French text
>>> you referred in your post please let me know.

I hope this helps, regards, Jk.


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Re: French research question

GRAMPS - User mailing list
In reply to this post by John W. Kitz-3
Hi all,


Le 25/11/2018 à 15:55, John W. Kitz a écrit :
> Enno,
>
> Even though there are (quite) a number of unknowns, such as the
> missing year on the list,
If you go to the first page of the document, you read it was issue March
1927. Consequently, there is a high probability that dates refer to year
1926. The list for Lazarists explicitly states the departures (for them)
took place in 1926

> was celibacy a requirement for membership of the congregation,
In the list, abbreviation RR. PP. stands for "révérends pères"
("Reverend fathers", plural formal because abbreviation is doubled)
which implies Alfred Borsteede was a priest, like all others, hence not
married (at that time).

> is it the same person or not, etc., I'm posting this anyway. According
> to an entry in volume 26067 of a Dutch newspaper entitled "Algemeen
> Handelsblad" published on November 12, 1909
> a gentleman named J.A. Borgsteede and his wife
In the hypothesis it is the same man, he then became a widower and
entered priesthood (Catholic faith) between 1909 and 1926.


> are reported to be destined to depart from Amsterdam bound for
> Batavia, Indonesia, aboard a vessel named S.S. "Rembrandt"[2],[3].
>
> [2] https://resolver.kb.nl/resolve?urn=ddd:010340519:mpeg21:a0162
> [3]
> https://www.dordtenazoeker.nl/inhouddordtenazoeker/passagierslijsten_oostindie/55/REMBRANDT
>
> Regards, Jk.
Regards,
André


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Re: French research question

enno
Hello all,

> In the list, abbreviation RR. PP. stands for "révérends pères"
> ("Reverend fathers", plural formal because abbreviation is doubled)
> which implies Alfred Borsteede was a priest, like all others, hence
> not married (at that time).
>
>> is it the same person or not, etc., I'm posting this anyway.
>> According to an entry in volume 26067 of a Dutch newspaper entitled
>> "Algemeen Handelsblad" published on November 12, 1909
>> a gentleman named J.A. Borgsteede and his wife
> In the hypothesis it is the same man, he then became a widower and
> entered priesthood (Catholic faith) between 1909 and 1926.

To avoid confusion, I need to say that Alfred is a priest name, which
has no connection to the persons given names. J. A. was his father, and
he had a brother named A. J., and for that brother, A means Alfred.
That's not the case for their father though.

Father Alfred was born in 1898, and died in 1928, one week before his
30th birthday, in Brasil. He probably died from a variation of the
plague, and I have a newspaper article about his death, in Portuguese,
which was translated for me by a Flight Simulator friend.

Note that I asked things on this list, because I know that many on this
list provide very good answers, and I don't know any good list for
France either.

I plan to review your hints later this week.

Thanks!

Enno




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Re: French research question

Tom Hughes
On 25/11/2018 19:19, Enno Borgsteede wrote:

> Note that I asked things on this list, because I know that many on this
> list provide very good answers, and I don't know any good list for
> France either.

Might I suggest https://genealogy.stackexchange.com/ as a good place
to ask this sort of question, whether about France or anything else.

Tom

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Re: French research question

John W. Kitz-3
In reply to this post by enno
Enno,

On 2018-11-25 20:19, Enno Borgsteede wrote:

> Hello all,
>
>> In the list, abbreviation RR. PP. stands for "révérends pères"
>> ("Reverend fathers", plural formal because abbreviation is doubled)
>> which implies Alfred Borsteede was a priest, like all others, hence
>> not married (at that time).
>>
>>> is it the same person or not, etc., I'm posting this anyway.
>>> According to an entry in volume 26067 of a Dutch newspaper entitled
>>> "Algemeen Handelsblad" published on November 12, 1909
>>> a gentleman named J.A. Borgsteede and his wife
>> In the hypothesis it is the same man, he then became a widower and
>> entered priesthood (Catholic faith) between 1909 and 1926.

Please ignore my earlier remarks about mister J.A. Borgsteede.

Further searches reveal that father Alfred Borgsteede, along fathers
Post, Kee and Braun, departed The Netherlands destined for Araguary
[possibly intended to refer to Aracaju since that has a sea port rather
than to Aragauri, which lies further inland] in Brazil on September 1,
1926 aboard S.S. (Steam Ship) "Orania" at the time operated by the Royal
Holland Lloyd[1].

[1] https://resolver.kb.nl/resolve?urn=ddd:010531521:mpeg21:a0123

There have been multiple vessels named S.S. "Orania", but I suspect it
was this[2] vessel, which is reported[3],[4] to have later collided with
a Portuguese vessel named S.S. "Loanda". The "Loanda" is reported to
have hit the "Orania" approximately midships on December 19, 1934, after
which the "Orania" is reported to have limped to the Portuguese port of
Leixoes where it subsequently sank.

[2] http://www.marhisdata.nl/schip&id=4934
[3] https://resolver.kb.nl/resolve?urn=ddd:010536285:mpeg21:a0083
[4] https://www.wrecksite.eu/wreck.aspx?120315

> To avoid confusion, I need to say that Alfred is a priest name, which
> has no connection to the persons given names. J. A. was his father,
> and he had a brother named A. J., and for that brother, A means
> Alfred. That's not the case for their father though.
>
> Father Alfred was born in 1898, and died in 1928, one week before his
> 30th birthday, in Brasil. He probably died from a variation of the
> plague, and I have a newspaper article about his death, in Portuguese,
> which was translated for me by a Flight Simulator friend.
>
> Note that I asked things on this list, because I know that many on
> this list provide very good answers, and I don't know any good list
> for France either.

It doesn't bother me that you did. I only intended to point out that, as
you know, this list is typically used by users of Gramps to discuss its
use.

>
> I plan to review your hints later this week.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Enno
>

Regards, Jk.


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Re: French research question

John W. Kitz-3
Enno,

On 2018-11-25 22:24, John W. Kitz wrote:

> Enno,
>
> On 2018-11-25 20:19, Enno Borgsteede wrote:
>> Hello all,
>>
>>> In the list, abbreviation RR. PP. stands for "révérends pères"
>>> ("Reverend fathers", plural formal because abbreviation is doubled)
>>> which implies Alfred Borsteede was a priest, like all others, hence
>>> not married (at that time).
>>>
>>>> is it the same person or not, etc., I'm posting this anyway.
>>>> According to an entry in volume 26067 of a Dutch newspaper entitled
>>>> "Algemeen Handelsblad" published on November 12, 1909
>>>> a gentleman named J.A. Borgsteede and his wife
>>> In the hypothesis it is the same man, he then became a widower and
>>> entered priesthood (Catholic faith) between 1909 and 1926.
>
> Please ignore my earlier remarks about mister J.A. Borgsteede.
>
> Further searches reveal that father Alfred Borgsteede, along fathers
> Post, Kee and Braun, departed The Netherlands destined for Araguary
> [possibly intended to refer to Aracaju since that has a sea port
> rather than to Araguari, which lies further inland] in Brazil on
> September 1, 1926 aboard S.S. (Steam Ship) "Orania" at the time
> operated by the Royal Holland Lloyd[1].
>
> [1] https://resolver.kb.nl/resolve?urn=ddd:010531521:mpeg21:a0123
>
> There have been multiple vessels named S.S. "Orania", but I suspect it
> was this[2] vessel, which is reported[3],[4] to have later collided
> with a Portuguese vessel named S.S. "Loanda". The "Loanda" is reported
> to have hit the "Orania" approximately midships on December 19, 1934,
> after which the "Orania" is reported to have limped to the Portuguese
> port of Leixoes where it subsequently sank.
>
> [2] http://www.marhisdata.nl/schip&id=4934
> [3] https://resolver.kb.nl/resolve?urn=ddd:010536285:mpeg21:a0083
> [4] https://www.wrecksite.eu/wreck.aspx?120315
>
>> To avoid confusion, I need to say that Alfred is a priest name, which
>> has no connection to the persons given names. J. A. was his father,
>> and he had a brother named A. J., and for that brother, A means
>> Alfred. That's not the case for their father though.
>>
>> Father Alfred was born in 1898, and died in 1928, one week before his
>> 30th birthday, in Brasil.

While researching this you may have found the reference to a Dutch
obituary for father Borgsteede on wiewaswie[5].

[5] https://www.wiewaswie.nl/nl/detail/37818192

If you are a paying member of the Dutch CBG you may already have taken a
look at it.

If not the obituary reads (I quote in Dutch): "Gisteren [i.e. February
8, 1928] ontvingen wij het telegrafisch bericht, dat te Araguary
(Brazilië) na een korstondige ziekte is overleden, onze dierbare
Confrater Pater Alfred Borgsteede. Wij vragen aan al zijn vrienden en
kennnissen een godvruchtig gebed voor zijn zielerust. Mede namens de
Familie, DE PATERS DER H.H. HARTEN. Ginneken, 9 Febr. 1928. (Nr. 3182)"

As you may have noticed during your research to date it is, as far as
I'm aware, customary, maybe required by law even, that the Civil Status
Registers of The Netherlands contain two death certificates for one
individual, one in each municipality, if that individual passed away in
a municipality other than the one of which s/he was a registered
resident.

With that in mind I've taken a look at the death register of the year
1928, of the municipality named in the obituary, i.e. Ginneken and
Bavel, in order to see if I could find a death certificate for father
Borgsteede on or around the date mentioned in the obituary.

I haven't found one, which could be an indication that he informed the
municipality in which he resided of his impending departure for Brasil
and requested to be removed from the residence register prior to his
departure. If that's what actually happened, I would expect there to be
an entry to that effect in some residence register of either Ginneken
and Bavel or some other municipality.

>> He probably died from a variation of the
>> plague, and I have a newspaper article about his death, in Portuguese,
>> which was translated for me by a Flight Simulator friend.
>>
>> Note that I asked things on this list, because I know that many on
>> this list provide very good answers, and I don't know any good list
>> for France either.
>
> It doesn't bother me that you did. I only intended to point out that,
> as you know, this list is typically used by users of Gramps to discuss
> its use.
>
>>
>> I plan to review your hints later this week.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Enno
>>

Regards, Jk.


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Re: French research question

enno
In reply to this post by GRAMPS - User mailing list

Bonjour André,

This is the last column of a periodical dedicated to news about missionary works. From what I could grasp, it doesn't appear to be connected with any specific community, thus the news come from all religious orders.

The page anounces departures of missionaries just like newspapers in harbour-cities reported ship moves.

From information I could quickly gather, la congrégation des Sacrés-Cœurs de Jésus et de Marie (latin : Congregatio Sacrorum Cordium Iesu et Mariae necnon adorationis perpetuae Sanctissimi Sacramenti altaris) was established in 1793 during the Terror era of the French Revolution in order to help to spread devotion to the Sacred-Heart and to take care of priests under covert activity. The see was moved to the Paris Picpus borough in 1805.

Aha, thanks, that explains a lot. I never thought of the congregation to be an international one, but the above and the links provided by John prove that that was a major oversight, and I must do some more research here.

I can't know how your remote cousin became connected with the "Picpusians", but you should try to contact any archivist of the order. Due to a dramatic drop in vocations, the order is no longer active in France. The Superior General is now a Spaniard. You should try an Internet search with Congregación de los Sagrados Corazones [de Jesús y de María y de la Adoración Perpetua del Santísimo Sacramento del Altar] to find a contact.

While reading the wikipedia pages, I found that the congregation was active here too, but that does not yet explain why he chose this, and not any other one, so that's another thing to find out. Maybe he lived in a place where the congregation was active, maybe he had a friend who joined, maybe his father sent him there, I really don't know.

The Dutch wikipedia page does have a link to the official site of the congregation though, so I will take a look there.

Thanks!

Enno




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Re: French research question

enno
In reply to this post by John W. Kitz-3
Hello John,

> While researching this you may have found the reference to a Dutch
> obituary for father Borgsteede on wiewaswie[5].
>
> [5] https://www.wiewaswie.nl/nl/detail/37818192
>
> If you are a paying member of the Dutch CBG you may already have taken
> a look at it.
>
> If not the obituary reads (I quote in Dutch): "Gisteren [i.e. February
> 8, 1928] ontvingen wij het telegrafisch bericht, dat te Araguary
> (Brazilië) na een korstondige ziekte is overleden, onze dierbare
> Confrater Pater Alfred Borgsteede. Wij vragen aan al zijn vrienden en
> kennnissen een godvruchtig gebed voor zijn zielerust. Mede namens de
> Familie, DE PATERS DER H.H. HARTEN. Ginneken, 9 Febr. 1928. (Nr. 3182)"
Thanks for that. I'm not a member, but it may be quite a good idea to
get a membership, because it's probably better than that for the NGV.

> As you may have noticed during your research to date it is, as far as
> I'm aware, customary, maybe required by law even, that the Civil
> Status Registers of The Netherlands contain two death certificates for
> one individual, one in each municipality, if that individual passed
> away in a municipality other than the one of which s/he was a
> registered resident.
>
> With that in mind I've taken a look at the death register of the year
> 1928, of the municipality named in the obituary, i.e. Ginneken and
> Bavel, in order to see if I could find a death certificate for father
> Borgsteede on or around the date mentioned in the obituary.
>
> I haven't found one, which could be an indication that he informed the
> municipality in which he resided of his impending departure for Brasil
> and requested to be removed from the residence register prior to his
> departure. If that's what actually happened, I would expect there to
> be an entry to that effect in some residence register of either
> Ginneken and Bavel or some other municipality.

I tried the Breda site, and found an entry in the register, which lists
a departure for Aqua Suja in Brasil, on August 26, 1926, which is 5 days
before he departed from Amsterdam. You probably didn't find that,
because you looked for Alfred, which was the name that he was given as a
priest. His real name was Johannes Franciscus Henricus.

Your persistence has given me a lot of leads.

Thanks!

Enno




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Re: French research question

John W. Kitz-3
In reply to this post by enno
Enno,

On 2018-11-26 21:00, Enno Borgsteede wrote:

> Bonjour André,
>
>> This is the last column of a periodical dedicated to news about
>> missionary works. From what I could grasp, it doesn't appear to be
>> connected with any specific community, thus the news come from all
>> religious orders.
>>
>> The page anounces departures of missionaries just like newspapers in
>> harbour-cities reported ship moves.
>>
>> From information I could quickly gather, la CONGRÉGATION DES
>> SACRÉS-CŒURS DE JÉSUS ET DE MARIE (latin : _Congregatio Sacrorum
>> Cordium Iesu et Mariae necnon adorationis perpetuae Sanctissimi
>> Sacramenti altaris_) was established in 1793 during the Terror era
>> of the French Revolution in order to help to spread devotion to the
>> Sacred-Heart and to take care of priests under covert activity. The
>> see was moved to the Paris Picpus borough in 1805.
>
> Aha, thanks, that explains a lot. I never thought of the congregation
> to be an international one, but the above and the links provided by
> John prove that that was a major oversight, and I must do some more
> research here.
>
>> I can't know how your remote cousin became connected with the
>> "Picpusians", but you should try to contact any archivist of the
>> order.

As I suggested earlier I would try and call or visit the "Erfgoedcentrum
Nederlands Kloosterleven", maybe they can help you with this. I've
spoken to several of their staff in relation to my search for specific
documents related to Dutch PoW's, including one or more Catholic
missionaries, in Japanese captivity in Indonesia during WW II and the
individuals I have spoken were quite helpful.

>> Due to a dramatic drop in vocations, the order is no longer
>> active in France. The Superior General is now a Spaniard. You should
>> try an Internet search with CONGREGACIÓN DE LOS SAGRADOS CORAZONES
>> [DE JESÚS Y DE MARÍA Y DE LA ADORACIÓN PERPETUA DEL SANTÍSIMO
>> SACRAMENTO DEL ALTAR] to find a contact.
>
> While reading the wikipedia pages, I found that the congregation was
> active here too, but that does not yet explain why he chose this, and
> not any other one, so that's another thing to find out. Maybe he lived
> in a place where the congregation was active, maybe he had a friend
> who joined, maybe his father sent him there, I really don't know.
>

On another note; while I was looking into your question pertaining to
father Borgsteede, more specifically when looking up his obituary on the
website of the Dutch CBG, I noticed your an my research may have some
common ground, in the sense that another obituary that mentioned the
name Borgsteede also mentioned the surname Uriot (from Amsterdam as well
as The Hague), of which a number of generations appear in one branch of
one of the family names I'm researching.

If you do a search on Delpher using "Pater Alfred Borgsteede" as a
search argument, you'll find a number of articles about him, the last
one dating from about the middle of 1925, when he performed one or more
baptisms. I haven't read the articles in detail, but I believe the
baptisms were performed in The Hague.

I don't if he was there for the sole purpose of performing those
baptisms or because it was his last parish in The Netherlands prior to
his departure for Brazil by way of the Ginneken area, but it might be
something that is worthwhile having a look into in more detail than I
did.

> The Dutch wikipedia page does have a link to the official site of the
> congregation though, so I will take a look there.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Enno
>

Best of luck with your research, regards, Jk.


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Re: French research question

John W. Kitz-3
In reply to this post by enno
Enno,

On 2018-11-26 21:39, Enno Borgsteede wrote:

> Hello John,
>
>> While researching this you may have found the reference to a Dutch
>> obituary for father Borgsteede on wiewaswie[5].
>>
>> [5] https://www.wiewaswie.nl/nl/detail/37818192
>>
>> If you are a paying member of the Dutch CBG you may already have taken
>> a look at it.
>>
>> If not the obituary reads (I quote in Dutch): "Gisteren [i.e. February
>> 8, 1928] ontvingen wij het telegrafisch bericht, dat te Araguary
>> (Brazilië) na een korstondige ziekte is overleden, onze dierbare
>> Confrater Pater Alfred Borgsteede. Wij vragen aan al zijn vrienden en
>> kennnissen een godvruchtig gebed voor zijn zielerust. Mede namens de
>> Familie, DE PATERS DER H.H. HARTEN. Ginneken, 9 Febr. 1928. (Nr.
>> 3182)"
> Thanks for that. I'm not a member, but it may be quite a good idea to
> get a membership, because it's probably better than that for the NGV.
>> As you may have noticed during your research to date it is, as far as
>> I'm aware, customary, maybe required by law even, that the Civil
>> Status Registers of The Netherlands contain two death certificates for
>> one individual, one in each municipality, if that individual passed
>> away in a municipality other than the one of which s/he was a
>> registered resident.
>>
>> With that in mind I've taken a look at the death register of the year
>> 1928, of the municipality named in the obituary, i.e. Ginneken and
>> Bavel, in order to see if I could find a death certificate for father
>> Borgsteede on or around the date mentioned in the obituary.
>>
>> I haven't found one, which could be an indication that he informed the
>> municipality in which he resided of his impending departure for Brasil
>> and requested to be removed from the residence register prior to his
>> departure. If that's what actually happened, I would expect there to
>> be an entry to that effect in some residence register of either
>> Ginneken and Bavel or some other municipality.

> I tried the Breda site, and found an entry in the register, which
> lists a departure for Aqua Suja in Brasil, on August 26, 1926, which
> is 5 days before he departed from Amsterdam. You probably didn't find
> that, because you looked for Alfred, which was the name that he was
> given as a priest. His real name was Johannes Franciscus Henricus.

I searched the death register of "Ginneken en Bavel" for the year 1925,
not any of the population registers of either "Ginneken en Bavel" or
"Breda". Based on the information available to me at the time when I
wrote the email I merely suggested it might be worthwhile for you to
have a look in relevant population registers.

>
> Your persistence has given me a lot of leads.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Enno
>

Regards, Jk.


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Re: French research question

John W. Kitz-3
Enno,

On 2018-11-26 22:14, John W. Kitz wrote:

> Enno,
>
> On 2018-11-26 21:39, Enno Borgsteede wrote:
>> Hello John,
>>
>>> While researching this you may have found the reference to a Dutch
>>> obituary for father Borgsteede on wiewaswie[5].
>>>
>>> [5] https://www.wiewaswie.nl/nl/detail/37818192
>>>
>>> If you are a paying member of the Dutch CBG you may already have
>>> taken a look at it.
>>>
>>> If not the obituary reads (I quote in Dutch): "Gisteren [i.e.
>>> February 8, 1928] ontvingen wij het telegrafisch bericht, dat te
>>> Araguary (Brazilië) na een korstondige ziekte is overleden, onze
>>> dierbare Confrater Pater Alfred Borgsteede. Wij vragen aan al zijn
>>> vrienden en kennnissen een godvruchtig gebed voor zijn zielerust.
>>> Mede namens de Familie, DE PATERS DER H.H. HARTEN. Ginneken, 9 Febr.
>>> 1928. (Nr. 3182)"
>> Thanks for that. I'm not a member, but it may be quite a good idea to
>> get a membership, because it's probably better than that for the NGV.
>>> As you may have noticed during your research to date it is, as far as
>>> I'm aware, customary, maybe required by law even, that the Civil
>>> Status Registers of The Netherlands contain two death certificates
>>> for one individual, one in each municipality, if that individual
>>> passed away in a municipality other than the one of which s/he was a
>>> registered resident.
>>>
>>> With that in mind I've taken a look at the death register of the year
>>> 1928, of the municipality named in the obituary, i.e. Ginneken and
>>> Bavel, in order to see if I could find a death certificate for father
>>> Borgsteede on or around the date mentioned in the obituary.
>>>
>>> I haven't found one, which could be an indication that he informed
>>> the municipality in which he resided of his impending departure for
>>> Brasil and requested to be removed from the residence register prior
>>> to his departure. If that's what actually happened, I would expect
>>> there to be an entry to that effect in some residence register of
>>> either Ginneken and Bavel or some other municipality.
>
>> I tried the Breda site, and found an entry in the register, which
>> lists a departure for Aqua Suja in Brasil, on August 26, 1926, which
>> is 5 days before he departed from Amsterdam. You probably didn't find
>> that, because you looked for Alfred, which was the name that he was
>> given as a priest. His real name was Johannes Franciscus Henricus.
>
> I searched the death register of "Ginneken en Bavel" for the year
> 1925, not any of the population registers of either "Ginneken en
> Bavel" or "Breda". Based on the information available to me at the
> time when I wrote the email I merely suggested it might be worthwhile
> for you to have a look in relevant population registers.

My mistake; I should have written the death register of "Ginneken en
Bavel" for the year **1928** (not 192 as above), i.e., as I stated
before, the year of the obituary.

>>
>> Your persistence has given me a lot of leads.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Enno
>>

Regards, Jk.


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Re: French research question

John W. Kitz-3
In reply to this post by John W. Kitz-3
Enno,

On 2018-11-26 22:14, John W. Kitz wrote:

> Enno,
>
> On 2018-11-26 21:39, Enno Borgsteede wrote:
>> Hello John,
>>
>>> While researching this you may have found the reference to a Dutch
>>> obituary for father Borgsteede on wiewaswie[5].
>>>
>>> [5] https://www.wiewaswie.nl/nl/detail/37818192
>>>
>>> If you are a paying member of the Dutch CBG you may already have
>>> taken a look at it.
>>>
>>> If not the obituary reads (I quote in Dutch): "Gisteren [i.e.
>>> February 8, 1928] ontvingen wij het telegrafisch bericht, dat te
>>> Araguary (Brazilië) na een korstondige ziekte is overleden, onze
>>> dierbare Confrater Pater Alfred Borgsteede. Wij vragen aan al zijn
>>> vrienden en kennnissen een godvruchtig gebed voor zijn zielerust.
>>> Mede namens de Familie, DE PATERS DER H.H. HARTEN. Ginneken, 9 Febr.
>>> 1928. (Nr. 3182)"
>> Thanks for that. I'm not a member, but it may be quite a good idea to
>> get a membership, because it's probably better than that for the NGV.
>>> As you may have noticed during your research to date it is, as far as
>>> I'm aware, customary, maybe required by law even, that the Civil
>>> Status Registers of The Netherlands contain two death certificates
>>> for one individual, one in each municipality, if that individual
>>> passed away in a municipality other than the one of which s/he was a
>>> registered resident.
>>>
>>> With that in mind I've taken a look at the death register of the year
>>> 1928, of the municipality named in the obituary, i.e. Ginneken and
>>> Bavel, in order to see if I could find a death certificate for father
>>> Borgsteede on or around the date mentioned in the obituary.
>>>
>>> I haven't found one, which could be an indication that he informed
>>> the municipality in which he resided of his impending departure for
>>> Brasil and requested to be removed from the residence register prior
>>> to his departure. If that's what actually happened, I would expect
>>> there to be an entry to that effect in some residence register of
>>> either Ginneken and Bavel or some other municipality.
>
>> I tried the Breda site, and found an entry in the register, which
>> lists a departure for Aqua Suja in Brasil, on August 26, 1926, which
>> is 5 days before he departed from Amsterdam.

Looking at the entry in the Dutch population register the place name was
spelled as "Agua Suja"[1], which is located about 70 Km's SSE of
Aragauri[2], the place where he died according to his Dutch obituary.

[1]
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Agua+Suja,+Romaria+-+State+of+Minas+Gerais,+38520-000,+Brazil/@-18.6000904,-47.6514676,10.25z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x94a59cefaad2ad9d:0x1ccf44974c4c13d0!8m2!3d-18.883333!4d-47.633333
[2]
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Araguari+-+State+of+Minas+Gerais,+Brazil/@-18.6560506,-48.2540212,12.25z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x94a4259d61964401:0x57640d4e6acd20b1!8m2!3d-18.6459014!4d-48.1979841

>> You probably didn't find
>> that, because you looked for Alfred, which was the name that he was
>> given as a priest. His real name was Johannes Franciscus Henricus.
>
> I searched the death register of "Ginneken en Bavel" for the year
> 1925, not any of the population registers of either "Ginneken en
> Bavel" or "Breda". Based on the information available to me at the
> time when I wrote the email I merely suggested it might be worthwhile
> for you to have a look in relevant population registers.
>
>>
>> Your persistence has given me a lot of leads.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Enno
>>

Regards, Jk.


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Re: French research question

enno
In reply to this post by John W. Kitz-3
Op 26-11-18 om 22:14 schreef John W. Kitz:
> I searched the death register of "Ginneken en Bavel" for the year
> 1925, not any of the population registers of either "Ginneken en
> Bavel" or "Breda". Based on the information available to me at the
> time when I wrote the email I merely suggested it might be worthwhile
> for you to have a look in relevant population registers.

And that's what I did. And these registers, where he was registered
under his birth name, living in the congregation of the Holy Hearts,
tells that he left in August, 1926, meaning that he was in fact removed
from the registry. I can see that, because there is a horizontal line,
right through the entry.

So, in this case, where he truly emigrated, there was no need to
register his death.

Regards,

Enno




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Re: French research question

John W. Kitz-3
In reply to this post by enno
Enno,

Op 26-11-18 om 22:14 schreef John W. Kitz:

>> I searched the death register of "Ginneken en Bavel" for the year
>> 1925, not any of the population registers of either "Ginneken en
>> Bavel" or "Breda". Based on the information available to me at the
>> time when I wrote the email I merely suggested it might be worthwhile
>> for you to have a look in relevant population registers.
>
> And that's what I did. And these registers, where he was registered
> under his birth name, living in the congregation of the Holy Hearts,
> tells that he left in August, 1926, meaning that he was in fact removed
> from the registry. I can see that, because there is a horizontal line,
> right through the entry.
>
> So, in this case, where he truly emigrated, there was no need to
> register his death.

I'll leave that conclusion up to you, but based on the information
available I wonder if the mere fact that a line has been put through an
entry in the population register in and of itself is sufficient evidence
to conclude that father Borgsteede's emigration to Brazil from the
outset was intended to be permanent rather than temporary as well as a
reasonable and acceptable explanation why there shouldn't be any trace
of his passing in a Dutch archive.

In addition the text of the Dutch obituary suggests someone (of his
family) or some organization (maybe the order he at the time belonged
to) was notified by telegram of his passing. I don't know if that, given
the circumstances around the time of his passing, meant that, under
Dutch law, it was required to issue a Dutch death certificate, but IMHO
it at least suggests there is a, albeit possibly slim, chance to find
some form of evidence of his passing in some Dutch archive.

Which is why, should your research goals necessitate that, I suggested
it could be worthwhile to contact the religious order which father
Borgsteede belonged to or the so-called Mission Procure, if there was
one, that served the religious mission abroad which he belonged to.

>
> Regards,
>
> Enno
>

Regards, Jk.


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