[Fwd: [Gramps-devel] Family View]

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[Fwd: [Gramps-devel] Family View]

Alex Roitman
I think this may enjoy the discussion between the users
of gramps, not just the developers.

Forwarding to the gramps-users,
Alex

-------- Forwarded Message --------

> From: Steve Hall <[hidden email]>
> To: GRAMPS Devel <[hidden email]>
> Subject: [Gramps-devel] Family View
> Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 00:22:33 -0500
>
> Per the discussions on irc.freenode.net#gramps tonight, I'd like to
> request the traditional Family View. Ages ago, I did a mockup for one:
>
>   http://www.dancingpaper.com/gramps-ui/familyview-2005-03-12.png
>
> However, with the new GTK+ interface, it might start with something
> like:
>
>   http://www.dancingpaper.com/gramps-ui/family-view_2006-10-30.png
>
> and then add a few more tidbits like places and Father/Mother marrige:
>
>  Father
>  . b. date, place
>  . m. date, place
>  . d. date, place
>  Mother
>  . b. date, place
>  . d. date, place
>
>  . Siblings:
>  . . Child 1
>  . . . b. date, place
>  . . . d. date, place
>
>  . . Child 2
>  . . . b. date, place
>  . . . d. date, place
>
>
> As I got into this, I realized that the "hyperlinked name" convention
> in Relationship view isn't at all obvious. Clicking on a name appears
> that it will lead to more detailed information about that person, not
> navigation to another generation. (And if so, which one.)
>
> So I would also propose that the navigation system from Pedigree view
> be used here. Then, clicking on an individual opens them for editing.
> There are some other similar inconsistencies on this line, but that's
> probably enough for tonight. :)
>
>
--
Alexander Roitman   http://www.gramps-project.org

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Re: [Fwd: [Gramps-devel] Family View]

Gerald Britton-2
The proposed changes to the family view make it look like the
relationship view, albeit simplified.  I really don't see the point.
Also it's not obvious to me how you would edit family related events
etc.

On 10/31/06, Alex Roitman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I think this may enjoy the discussion between the users
> of gramps, not just the developers.
>
> Forwarding to the gramps-users,
> Alex
>
> -------- Forwarded Message --------
> > From: Steve Hall <[hidden email]>
> > To: GRAMPS Devel <[hidden email]>
> > Subject: [Gramps-devel] Family View
> > Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 00:22:33 -0500
> >
> > Per the discussions on irc.freenode.net#gramps tonight, I'd like to
> > request the traditional Family View. Ages ago, I did a mockup for one:
> >
> >   http://www.dancingpaper.com/gramps-ui/familyview-2005-03-12.png
> >
> > However, with the new GTK+ interface, it might start with something
> > like:
> >
> >   http://www.dancingpaper.com/gramps-ui/family-view_2006-10-30.png
> >
> > and then add a few more tidbits like places and Father/Mother marrige:
> >
> >  Father
> >  . b. date, place
> >  . m. date, place
> >  . d. date, place
> >  Mother
> >  . b. date, place
> >  . d. date, place
> >
> >  . Siblings:
> >  . . Child 1
> >  . . . b. date, place
> >  . . . d. date, place
> >
> >  . . Child 2
> >  . . . b. date, place
> >  . . . d. date, place
> >
> >
> > As I got into this, I realized that the "hyperlinked name" convention
> > in Relationship view isn't at all obvious. Clicking on a name appears
> > that it will lead to more detailed information about that person, not
> > navigation to another generation. (And if so, which one.)
> >
> > So I would also propose that the navigation system from Pedigree view
> > be used here. Then, clicking on an individual opens them for editing.
> > There are some other similar inconsistencies on this line, but that's
> > probably enough for tonight. :)
> >
> >
> --
> Alexander Roitman   http://www.gramps-project.org
>
>
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>
> _______________________________________________
> Gramps-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
>
>
>
>

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Re: [Fwd: [Gramps-devel] Family View]

Steve Hall-3
In reply to this post by Alex Roitman
From: "Gerald Britton", Tue, October 31, 2006 7:25 am> > The proposed changes to the family view make it look like the> relationship view, albeit simplified. I'm actually not proposing any changes to existing views, this is abrand new one.> I really don't see the point. The point is clarification, the current Relationship view:o Doesn't show complete information about the parentso Has an individual at the top instead of parents (confusesnavigation...clicking at the top does not go up in the tree)The Family Group is a common method of arranging information so thatthe researcher can verify all the facts of an individual and spouse,including those that might be have some commonality with theirchildren...> Also it's not obvious to me how you would edit family related events> etc.Events should be related to individuals, not families. Strictlyspeaking, if an event is related to multiple individuals, they allneed to be linked directly to it, not linked through an abstractcollection
 of people.The reason is because a collection of individuals do not share a factexactly or in the same way. A plague, a move, a fire, animmigration... it is *very* important to record each and everyindividual's direct relationship to a fact instead of blindlyattaching it to a whole group. Almost always, as more information isresearched, there will be exceptions so that a family fact would beinaccurate or flatly wrong for one of the connected parties.Now this is a distinction from *shared* events. A marriage or divorcewould be an example of a special fact that two individuals share. Butthere are only a handful of these types of special events, even birthfacts are typically not recorded for the mother unless the issue failsto live!So I'm saying that GRAMPS' family editor dialog and family-relatedfacts should go away. Let events be recorded through the Edit Persondialog, and allow special events like marriages to be shared. And havea good Family View so that the researcher can c
 ompare these facts onone screen.-- Steve Hall  [ digitect dancingpaper com ]

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Re: [Fwd: [Gramps-devel] Family View]

Steve Hall-3
In reply to this post by Alex Roitman
From: "Gerald Britton", Tue, October 31, 2006 7:25 am> > The proposed changes to the family view make it look like the> relationship view, albeit simplified. I'm actually not proposing any changes to existing views, this is abrand new one.> I really don't see the point. The point is clarification, the current Relationship view:o Doesn't show complete information about the parentso Has an individual at the top instead of parents (confusesnavigation...clicking at the top does not go up in the tree)The Family Group is a common method of arranging information so thatthe researcher can verify all the facts of an individual and spouse,including those that might be have some commonality with theirchildren...> Also it's not obvious to me how you would edit family related events> etc.Events should be related to individuals, not families. Strictlyspeaking, if an event is related to multiple individuals, they allneed to be linked directly to it, not linked through an abstractcollection
 of people.The reason is because a collection of individuals do not share a factexactly or in the same way. A plague, a move, a fire, animmigration... it is *very* important to record each and everyindividual's direct relationship to a fact instead of blindlyattaching it to a whole group. Almost always, as more information isresearched, there will be exceptions so that a family fact would beinaccurate or flatly wrong for one of the connected parties.Now this is a distinction from *shared* events. A marriage or divorcewould be an example of a special fact that two individuals share. Butthere are only a handful of these types of special events, even birthfacts are typically not recorded for the mother unless the issue failsto live!So I'm saying that GRAMPS' family editor dialog and family-relatedfacts should go away. Let events be recorded through the Edit Persondialog, and allow special events like marriages to be shared. And havea good Family View so that the researcher can c
 ompare these facts onone screen.-- Steve Hall  [ digitect dancingpaper com ]

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Re: [Fwd: [Gramps-devel] Family View]

Steve Hall-3
In reply to this post by Alex Roitman
From: "Gerald Britton", Tue, October 31, 2006 7:25 am
>
> The proposed changes to the family view make it look like the
> relationship view, albeit simplified.

I'm actually not proposing any changes to existing views, this is a
brand new one.

> I really don't see the point.

The point is clarification, the current Relationship view:

o Doesn't show complete information about the parents
o Has an individual at the top instead of parents (confuses
  navigation...clicking at the top does not go up in the tree)

The Family Group is a common method of arranging information so that
the researcher can verify all the facts of an individual and spouse,
including those that might be have some commonality with their
children...

> Also it's not obvious to me how you would edit family related events
> etc.

Events should be related to individuals, not families. Strictly
speaking, if an event is related to multiple individuals, they all
need to be linked directly to it, not linked through an abstract
collection of people.

The reason is because a collection of individuals do not share a fact
exactly or in the same way. A plague, a move, a fire, an
immigration... it is *very* important to record each and every
individual's direct relationship to a fact instead of blindly
attaching it to a whole group. Almost always, as more information is
researched, there will be exceptions so that a family fact would be
inaccurate or flatly wrong for one of the connected parties.

Now this is a distinction from *shared* events. A marriage or divorce
would be an example of a special fact that two individuals share. But
there are only a handful of these types of special events, even birth
facts are typically not recorded for the mother unless the issue fails
to live!

So I'm saying that GRAMPS' family editor dialog and family-related
facts should go away. Let events be recorded through the Edit Person
dialog, and allow special events like marriages to be shared. And have
a good Family View so that the researcher can compare these facts on
one screen.


--
Steve Hall  [ digitect dancingpaper com ]


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Re: [Fwd: [Gramps-devel] Family View]

Gerald Britton-2
In reply to this post by Steve Hall-3
The Relationship view is not designed to show complete information.
What it does is show relationships, which it does quite well.  The
Family group OTOH, *does* show complete family information, including
Children, Events, Sources, Attributes, Notes, Gallery items etc.

It is certainly arguable that some things don't always make sense at
the family level.  Nevertheless, GEDCOM supports them, so Gramps needs
to do so as well, if only to be able to properly import GEDCOMs from
other programs.

Personally, I like both the Relationship view and the Family view in
2.2.1.   While there is probably room for improvement in each of them,
their purposes and hence functionality differ legitimately.  I have a
feeling that there won't be much buy-in to the idea of merging the two
views as you seem to be suggesting.

On 10/31/06, Steve Hall <[hidden email]> wrote:
> From: "Gerald Britton", Tue, October 31, 2006 7:25 am> > The proposed changes to the family view make it look like the> relationship view, albeit simplified. I'm actually not proposing any changes to existing views, this is abrand new one.> I really don't see the point. The point is clarification, the current Relationship view:o Doesn't show complete information about the parentso Has an individual at the top instead of parents (confusesnavigation...clicking at the top does not go up in the tree)The Family Group is a common method of arranging information so thatthe researcher can verify all the facts of an individual and spouse,including those that might be have some commonality with theirchildren...> Also it's not obvious to me how you would edit family related events> etc.Events should be related to individuals, not families. Strictlyspeaking, if an event is related to multiple individuals, they allneed to be linked directly to it, not linked through an abstractcollectio
 n of people.The reason is because a collection of individuals do not share a factexactly or in the same way. A plague, a move, a fire, animmigration... it is *very* important to record each and everyindividual's direct relationship to a fact instead of blindlyattaching it to a whole group. Almost always, as more information isresearched, there will be exceptions so that a family fact would beinaccurate or flatly wrong for one of the connected parties.Now this is a distinction from *shared* events. A marriage or divorcewould be an example of a special fact that two individuals share. Butthere are only a handful of these types of special events, even birthfacts are typically not recorded for the mother unless the issue failsto live!So I'm saying that GRAMPS' family editor dialog and family-relatedfacts should go away. Let events be recorded through the Edit Persondialog, and allow special events like marriages to be shared. And havea good Family View so that the researcher can
  compare these facts onone screen.-- Steve Hall  [ digitect dancingpaper com ]
>

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Re: [Fwd: [Gramps-devel] Family View]

Steve Hall-3
In reply to this post by Alex Roitman

> Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] [Fwd: [Gramps-devel] Family View]
> From: Steve Hall <[hidden email]>
> Date: Tue, October 31, 2006 11:34 am
> To: Gerald Britton <[hidden email]>
> Cc: Gramps users <[hidden email]>
>
> From: "Gerald Britton", Tue, October 31, 2006 7:25 am> > The proposed changes...

[run-on deleted]

Sorry about the previous broken formatting, I have no idea what happened, web
email client glitch I suppose.


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Re: [Fwd: [Gramps-devel] Family View]

Steve Hall-3
In reply to this post by Alex Roitman
From: "Gerald Britton", Tue, October 31, 2006 11:46 am
>
> The Relationship view is not designed to show complete information.
> What it does is show relationships, which it does quite well.

I agree, it does explain an extended family well.

> The Family group OTOH, *does* show complete family information,
> including Children, Events, Sources, Attributes, Notes, Gallery
> items etc.

Note that I am referring to the existing dialog as just that, not a
view. In GRAMPS terminology it is a "Family Editor".

> Personally, I like both the Relationship view and the Family view in
> 2.2.1. While there is probably room for improvement in each of them,
> their purposes and hence functionality differ legitimately. I have a
> feeling that there won't be much buy-in to the idea of merging the
> two views as you seem to be suggesting.

I've never suggested merging anything! Per my previous mail, I am
suggesting a NEW view, called Family View. The existing Family
"Editor" is an entirely separate creature, one that I see no use for
as explained in that mail.


--
Steve Hall  [ digitect dancingpaper com ]


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Re: [Fwd: [Gramps-devel] Family View]

Gerald Britton-2
Thanks for your input Steve.  As for me, I use the Family Editor
extensively, so I would like to see it continue.  I also believe that
we need the family-level information.  In fact, I think we should
expand it.  In another posting I made the suggestion to add an
Internet tab to the family Editor.  This would be a convenient way to
point to off-site resources (such as related family trees that have
been posted to the web.)

On 10/31/06, Steve Hall <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: "Gerald Britton", Tue, October 31, 2006 11:46 am
> >
> > The Relationship view is not designed to show complete information.
> > What it does is show relationships, which it does quite well.
>
> I agree, it does explain an extended family well.
>
> > The Family group OTOH, *does* show complete family information,
> > including Children, Events, Sources, Attributes, Notes, Gallery
> > items etc.
>
> Note that I am referring to the existing dialog as just that, not a
> view. In GRAMPS terminology it is a "Family Editor".
>
> > Personally, I like both the Relationship view and the Family view in
> > 2.2.1. While there is probably room for improvement in each of them,
> > their purposes and hence functionality differ legitimately. I have a
> > feeling that there won't be much buy-in to the idea of merging the
> > two views as you seem to be suggesting.
>
> I've never suggested merging anything! Per my previous mail, I am
> suggesting a NEW view, called Family View. The existing Family
> "Editor" is an entirely separate creature, one that I see no use for
> as explained in that mail.
>
>
> --
> Steve Hall  [ digitect dancingpaper com ]
>
>

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