GRAMPS Places usage question

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GRAMPS Places usage question

John Bissett

 All:

I am just starting with GRAMPS.  I have looked at the "places" and "dates" documentation but I can't get GRAMPS to do what I want.  I would be very grateful if someone could help me.

For example take the town of St. Thomas,  Ontario, Canada.  From 1810 to 1841 it was St, Thomas, Middlesex, Upper Canada.   From  1841 to 1851 it was St. Thomas,  Middlesex, Canada West,  United Province of Canada. From 1851 to 1867 it was St. Thomas,  Elgin, Canada West, United Province of Canada. And from 1867 it was St. Thomas, Elgin, Ontario, Canada.

This is because  in 1841 the provinces of  Upper Canada and Lower Canada merged to form the United Province of Canada. Upper Canada became known as Canada West. Lower Canada became Canada East.  In 1851 a part of Middlesex county  was taken to form Elgin county.   Finally in 1867 the United Province of Canada split into Ontario and Quebec which joined with New Brunswick and Nova Scotia to form the Dominion of Canada.

I tried creating "places" records for the various provincial, region, county and town names with their associated dates.  I then used (in some cases) multiple "enclosed by" to reflect all the historical relationships. 

When I put "St. Thomas" in  my father's birth record and his birth date of June 7, 1920, I expected it to be labelled as "St. Thomas, Elgin, Ontario, Canada.

Instead I am getting "St. Thomas, Middlesex, ?, ?.

Is there a way to get GRAMPS to generate historically correct full names for villages, towns, cities and other "enclosed" places based on event date?



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Re: GRAMPS Places usage question

Nick Hall
On 22/06/17 23:35, John Bissett wrote:

>
> When I put "St. Thomas" in  my father's birth record and his birth
> date of June 7, 1920, I expected it to be labelled as "St. Thomas,
> Elgin, Ontario, Canada.
>
> Instead I am getting "St. Thomas, Middlesex, ?, ?.
>
> Is there a way to get GRAMPS to generate historically correct full
> names for villages, towns, cities and other "enclosed" places based on
> event date?
>
>
Put the date ranges on the links rather than the place names.

Nick.



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Re: GRAMPS Places usage question

Doug-11
In reply to this post by John Bissett
On 22/06/17 23:35, John Bissett wrote:

 All:

I am just starting with GRAMPS.  I have looked at the "places" and "dates" documentation but I can't get GRAMPS to do what I want.  I would be very grateful if someone could help me.

For example take the town of St. Thomas,  Ontario, Canada.  From 1810 to 1841 it was St, Thomas, Middlesex, Upper Canada.   From  1841 to 1851 it was St. Thomas,  Middlesex, Canada West,  United Province of Canada. From 1851 to 1867 it was St. Thomas,  Elgin, Canada West, United Province of Canada. And from 1867 it was St. Thomas, Elgin, Ontario, Canada.

This is because  in 1841 the provinces of  Upper Canada and Lower Canada merged to form the United Province of Canada. Upper Canada became known as Canada West. Lower Canada became Canada East.  In 1851 a part of Middlesex county  was taken to form Elgin county.   Finally in 1867 the United Province of Canada split into Ontario and Quebec which joined with New Brunswick and Nova Scotia to form the Dominion of Canada.

I tried creating "places" records for the various provincial, region, county and town names with their associated dates.  I then used (in some cases) multiple "enclosed by" to reflect all the historical relationships. 

When I put "St. Thomas" in  my father's birth record and his birth date of June 7, 1920, I expected it to be labelled as "St. Thomas, Elgin, Ontario, Canada.

Instead I am getting "St. Thomas, Middlesex, ?, ?.

Is there a way to get GRAMPS to generate historically correct full names for villages, towns, cities and other "enclosed" places based on event date?


Hi John,

I'm attaching a small gramps file ("canadatrial.gramps") with what I think is what you're asking for:
(1) Create a new (empty) family tree with any name that suits you
(2) Family Trees=>Import - select 'canadatrial.gramps' from wherever you've left it. Import.
(3) You should see that the place of your father's dob is correctly shown.
(4) I've also added a bogus date of death 100 years earlier to show that the place then is automatically entered correctly for that date.

I suggest you play around with a *copy* of the file to see the effect of altering or removing dates on the place tree.

Some general comments:
Unfortunately gramps has no way of indicating a change of place category with time: St. Thomas settlement 1810-> village 1852-> town 1861->city 1881. I've left it as settlement, even though it's obviously a nonsense.

Most of the time, setting up your place tree is straightforward; but once it gets a bit complicated you can do with all the aids gramps offers. Your place tree is a case in point.
So,
(a) enable automatic place title generation (Edit=>Preferences=>Display=> Enable automatic place title generation)
(b) have the "enclosed by" and "enclosing" gramplets open in the side panel, large enough to show the date columns
(c) alternate between Places List view and Place Tree view frequently for checking.

Errors show up in 3 ways:

A question mark in the place title, e.g. "St. Thomas, Middlesex, ?, ?"

A truncated place title, eg. "Canada West", when the Enclosed by field shows it to be enclosed by United Province of Canada which is itself enclosed by Canada.
That is the title should be "Canada West, United Province of Canada, Canada".
The problem here is Canada West encl. by United Province of Canada (1841-1867), encl. by Canada (1841-1867); but Canada West has had no dates set on its validity. Inserting these (Canada West [1841-1867]) corrects the title.

A question mark in the place field of an event such as a birth. If there are no errors of the first two kinds this means a mistake in entering the date or place of the event.

I hope this helps; let me know how you get on.

Regards,
Doug




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Forum?

metoo
Hello:

Has anyone ever thought of setting up a forum for GRAMPS users? It would
be much easier to have one available rather than subscribing to this
list. Would make it much easier to find old answers for questions etc
...

I don't know what is involved well but readymade programs are supposed
to make running one extremely simple. I doubt it is more trouble than
the list and a lot more convenient.

Best,

Mihail

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Re: Forum?

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by Doug-11
On 06/25/2017 08:20 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
> Hello:
>
> Has anyone ever thought of setting up a forum for GRAMPS users?

No.

>   It would be much easier to have one available rather than subscribing to this
> list.

Eh?

>   Would make it much easier to find old answers for questions etc

Google has fully indexed the list archives.



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Re: Forum?

Craig Treleaven
In reply to this post by metoo
> On Jun 25, 2017, at 9:20 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
> Has anyone ever thought of setting up a forum for GRAMPS users? It would
> be much easier to have one available rather than subscribing to this
> list. Would make it much easier to find old answers for questions etc
> ...
>
> I don't know what is involved well but readymade programs are supposed
> to make running one extremely simple. I doubt it is more trouble than
> the list and a lot more convenient.

Apparently there was a forum in the 2005-2006 time frame but it was closed due to excessive spam traffic:

http://gramps.1791082.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=1807095&query=forum+attack&days=0

Should the project try again?  Depends who you ask.  Most people who are now on the mailing list are comfortable with mailings lists…for obvious reasons.  So, if you ask there, there likely won’t be a lot of support.  

OTOH, I think new users—the ones most likely to need support—would be much more comfortable with an online forum.  My kids, 19 and 21, barely ever use email and then only grudgingly.  Greybeards can lecture all they want but that’s not going to change how things are.  

To me, the one killer feature of a forum is the easy ability to embed a picture inline.  If a user is having trouble with some feature of Gramps, an annotated screen shot with the overlooked widget circled is more valuable than a thousand words trying to unambiguously describe the thing.  

Does that make a forum a no-brainer?  Well, no.  It takes time and skill to set up a forum.  It takes time and effort to adminster the forum and keep the spammers out. It may also require some money for bandwidth.  All it takes is somebody motivated-enough to come up with these resources and then there will be a Gramps forum.  Since we don’t have one, no one apparently feels so motivated.  But it is a community-driven project—maybe the OP wants to do it?

Craig
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Re: Forum?

Doug-11
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
On 25/06/17 15:01, Ron Johnson wrote:

> On 06/25/2017 08:20 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>> Hello:
>>
>> Has anyone ever thought of setting up a forum for GRAMPS
>> users?
>
> No.
>
>>   It would be much easier to have one available rather
>> than subscribing to this
>> list.
>
> Eh?
>
>>   Would make it much easier to find old answers for
>> questions etc
>
> Google has fully indexed the list archives

I think it was suggested some years ago and generally agreed
to be a bad idea, judging by people's experience of forums
elsewhere.

Doug

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Re: Forum?

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by metoo
On 06/25/2017 10:01 AM, Craig Treleaven wrote:
[snip]
> To me, the one killer feature of a forum is the easy ability to embed a picture inline.  If a user is having trouble with some feature of Gramps, an annotated screen shot with the overlooked widget circled is more valuable than a thousand words trying to unambiguously describe the thing.
>
> Does that make a forum a no-brainer?  Well, no.  It takes time and skill to set up a forum.  It takes time and effort to adminster the forum and keep the spammers out. It may also require some money for bandwidth.  All it takes is somebody motivated-enough to come up with these resources and then there will be a Gramps forum.  Since we don’t have one, no one apparently feels so motivated.  But it is a community-driven project—maybe the OP wants to do it?

And the gramps people do *zero* work maintaining the mailing list, since
it's all handled by sourceforge.


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Re: Forum?

Doug-11
On 25/06/17 17:00, Ron Johnson wrote:

> On 06/25/2017 10:01 AM, Craig Treleaven wrote:
> [snip]
>> To me, the one killer feature of a forum is the easy
>> ability to embed a picture inline.  If a user is having
>> trouble with some feature of Gramps, an annotated screen
>> shot with the overlooked widget circled is more valuable
>> than a thousand words trying to unambiguously describe
>> the thing.
>>
>> Does that make a forum a no-brainer?  Well, no.  It takes
>> time and skill to set up a forum.  It takes time and
>> effort to adminster the forum and keep the spammers out.
>> It may also require some money for bandwidth.  All it
>> takes is somebody motivated-enough to come up with these
>> resources and then there will be a Gramps forum.  Since
>> we don’t have one, no one apparently feels so
>> motivated.  But it is a community-driven project—maybe
>> the OP wants to do it?
>
> And the gramps people do *zero* work maintaining the
> mailing list, since it's all handled by sourceforge
My 2 cents worth: for me, the killer feature of the forums I
belonged to was that I rarely got an answer to a problem I
posted - too few people saw it in a sub-forum, I imagine,
whereas pretty well everybody sees the whole mailing list;
and somebody, maybe a person not particularly interested,
may nevertheless know of a solution.

Doug

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Re: Forum?

Paul Franklin-5
In reply to this post by Doug-11
> I think it was suggested some years ago and generally agreed
> to be a bad idea, judging by people's experience of forums
> elsewhere.

That's what I recall also, vaguely.

As has been said, the mailing-list people here generally are
comfortable with the mailing list way of doing things.

It's also true that since SourceForge does the mechanics,
that its administration is at a minimal level (although I am
not one who maintains it and am not speaking officially).

But while I don't use them at all, to the best of my knowledge
other forums do exist, at other web sites, both for genealogy
in general and gramps in particular.  So I would suppose that
any user who prefers that method of communication can
find such things, and then use them there.

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Re: Forum?

Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI
In reply to this post by Doug-11
On Sun, 25 Jun 2017 17:42:50 +0100
Doug <[hidden email]> wrote:

> for me, the killer feature of the forums I
> belonged to was that I rarely got an answer to a problem I
> posted - too few people saw it in a sub-forum, I imagine,
> whereas pretty well everybody sees the whole mailing list;
> and somebody, maybe a person not particularly interested,
> may nevertheless know of a solution.

Another advantage of a list is that I can easily keep locally postings of immediate, of possible future, interest instead of having to search through a forum on the day I need info I remember seeing some time ago.
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
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Re: GRAMPS Places usage question

John Bissett
In reply to this post by Doug-11

Doug:

Thanks for your reply with the sample database.  Dave Scheipers already helped me with this and your database reinforced what he told me.  This may not be clear from the digest as one of my notes to  Dave was rejected as too large. I put in too many screen prints.  I can see that a DB export may have been smaller.  Or I could have put the screen prints in a file in dropbox and sent a link.  I appreciate your help.


On 2017-06-25 6:24 AM, Doug wrote:
On 22/06/17 23:35, John Bissett wrote:

 All:

I am just starting with GRAMPS.  I have looked at the "places" and "dates" documentation but I can't get GRAMPS to do what I want.  I would be very grateful if someone could help me.

For example take the town of St. Thomas,  Ontario, Canada.  From 1810 to 1841 it was St, Thomas, Middlesex, Upper Canada.   From  1841 to 1851 it was St. Thomas,  Middlesex, Canada West,  United Province of Canada. From 1851 to 1867 it was St. Thomas,  Elgin, Canada West, United Province of Canada. And from 1867 it was St. Thomas, Elgin, Ontario, Canada.

This is because  in 1841 the provinces of  Upper Canada and Lower Canada merged to form the United Province of Canada. Upper Canada became known as Canada West. Lower Canada became Canada East.  In 1851 a part of Middlesex county  was taken to form Elgin county.   Finally in 1867 the United Province of Canada split into Ontario and Quebec which joined with New Brunswick and Nova Scotia to form the Dominion of Canada.

I tried creating "places" records for the various provincial, region, county and town names with their associated dates.  I then used (in some cases) multiple "enclosed by" to reflect all the historical relationships. 

When I put "St. Thomas" in  my father's birth record and his birth date of June 7, 1920, I expected it to be labelled as "St. Thomas, Elgin, Ontario, Canada.

Instead I am getting "St. Thomas, Middlesex, ?, ?.

Is there a way to get GRAMPS to generate historically correct full names for villages, towns, cities and other "enclosed" places based on event date?


Hi John,

I'm attaching a small gramps file ("canadatrial.gramps") with what I think is what you're asking for:
(1) Create a new (empty) family tree with any name that suits you
(2) Family Trees=>Import - select 'canadatrial.gramps' from wherever you've left it. Import.
(3) You should see that the place of your father's dob is correctly shown.
(4) I've also added a bogus date of death 100 years earlier to show that the place then is automatically entered correctly for that date.

I suggest you play around with a *copy* of the file to see the effect of altering or removing dates on the place tree.

Some general comments:
Unfortunately gramps has no way of indicating a change of place category with time: St. Thomas settlement 1810-> village 1852-> town 1861->city 1881. I've left it as settlement, even though it's obviously a nonsense.

Most of the time, setting up your place tree is straightforward; but once it gets a bit complicated you can do with all the aids gramps offers. Your place tree is a case in point.
So,
(a) enable automatic place title generation (Edit=>Preferences=>Display=> Enable automatic place title generation)
(b) have the "enclosed by" and "enclosing" gramplets open in the side panel, large enough to show the date columns
(c) alternate between Places List view and Place Tree view frequently for checking.

Errors show up in 3 ways:

A question mark in the place title, e.g. "St. Thomas, Middlesex, ?, ?"

A truncated place title, eg. "Canada West", when the Enclosed by field shows it to be enclosed by United Province of Canada which is itself enclosed by Canada.
That is the title should be "Canada West, United Province of Canada, Canada".
The problem here is Canada West encl. by United Province of Canada (1841-1867), encl. by Canada (1841-1867); but Canada West has had no dates set on its validity. Inserting these (Canada West [1841-1867]) corrects the title.

A question mark in the place field of an event such as a birth. If there are no errors of the first two kinds this means a mistake in entering the date or place of the event.

I hope this helps; let me know how you get on.

Regards,
Doug





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Re: Forum?

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by Doug-11
On 06/25/2017 11:49 AM, Paul Franklin wrote:
[snip]
But while I don't use them at all, to the best of my knowledge
other forums do exist, at other web sites, both for genealogy
in general and gramps in particular.

Really?

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Re: Forum?

Philip Weiss
There's a Gramps forum at Ancestry.  I'm the nominal moderator there.


On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 12:01 PM, Ron Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 06/25/2017 11:49 AM, Paul Franklin wrote:
[snip]
But while I don't use them at all, to the best of my knowledge
other forums do exist, at other web sites, both for genealogy
in general and gramps in particular.

Really?

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Re: Forum?

enno
In reply to this post by Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI
Op 25-6-2017 om 19:22 schreef Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI:
> Another advantage of a list is that I can easily keep locally postings
> of immediate, of possible future, interest instead of having to search
> through a forum on the day I need info I remember seeing some time ago.
Indeed, and another issue is that when people set up a forum site, they
often create dozens of separate message areas, which makes posting and
searching even worse.

The Gramps lists are simple. There is one for users, one for developers,
and they are archived on SourceForge and Nabble, so they can be searched
too.

And the most important for me: They are mailing lists, so I can read
them together with all the other things that I am interested in using
one single inbox, and for me that is a huge time saver. Hopping from
forum site to forum site is something that I simply don't have the time
for, so for me it's this, or nothing, period.

cheers,

Enno


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Re: Forum?

Paul Franklin-5
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
On 6/25/17, Ron Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 06/25/2017 11:49 AM, Paul Franklin wrote:
> [snip]
>> But while I don't use them at all, to the best of my knowledge
>> other forums do exist, at other web sites, both for genealogy
>> in general and gramps in particular.
>
> Really?

I wouldn't have said it if I didn't think it was true.

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Re: Forum?

Peter (chamdo4ever)
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 3:01 PM, Ron Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 06/25/2017 11:49 AM, Paul Franklin wrote:
> [snip]
>
> But while I don't use them at all, to the best of my knowledge
> other forums do exist, at other web sites, both for genealogy
> in general and gramps in particular.
>
>
> Really?

Just like my compatriots Ron and Enno, I'm all for the mailing list,
but there does exist a Gramps subreddit which I'm subscribed to:

https://www.reddit.com/r/gramps/

But make no mistake, the mailing list is the definitive place to
discuss Gramps and Gramps related issues and I think it's the best
option. I intensely dislike the idea of a forum instead.

Peter

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Re: Forum?

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
On 06/25/2017 02:45 PM, Peter (chamdo4ever) wrote:
[snip]
> Just like my compatriots Ron and Enno, I'm all for the mailing list,
> but there does exist a Gramps subreddit which I'm subscribed to:
>
> https://www.reddit.com/r/gramps/

Didn't know that, either.

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Re: Forum?

Craig Treleaven
In reply to this post by enno
> On Jun 25, 2017, at 3:17 PM, Enno Borgsteede <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Op 25-6-2017 om 19:22 schreef Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI:
>> Another advantage of a list is that I can easily keep locally postings of immediate, of possible future, interest instead of having to search through a forum on the day I need info I remember seeing some time ago.
> Indeed, and another issue is that when people set up a forum site, they often create dozens of separate message areas, which makes posting and searching even worse.
>
Most forum software out there has a one-click control to show the new posts (regardless of sub-forum) since your last visit.  Looks almost like unread email that has been filtered into a mailbox.

> The Gramps lists are simple. There is one for users, one for developers, and they are archived on SourceForge and Nabble, so they can be searched too.
>
Searching is generall easier and more flexible on a forum compared a mailing list since there is normally a button right in front of your nose.  Better, you can usually choose whether to search a topic, the sub-forum or the entire board.  

> And the most important for me: They are mailing lists, so I can read them together with all the other things that I am interested in using one single inbox, and for me that is a huge time saver. Hopping from forum site to forum site is something that I simply don't have the time for, so for me it's this, or nothing, period.

The “workflow” for forums is just a little different from that of participating in a mailing list.  (Bookmarks are your friend!)  After learning a bit, anyone can use either avenue very effectively.  However, I would hazzard a guess that more new users coming to Gramps have experience with forums than mailing lists.  We’re asking (insisting?) that those people also learn how to deal with a foreign-to-them animal called a mailing list.

Other minor benefits of a forum:

- can have “pinned” threads that answer frequently asked questions
- can show ‘trending topics’: lots of activity
- can show questions asked that have received no answer yet
- can show the posting history of the thread creator so you have some idea what their experience level is when framing a response.
- can show up/down voting on responses rather than a bunch of “me too” replies
- can show the number of views on posting so you know your question is at least being seen
etc

I follow a number of mailing lists and a number of forums on a daily basis.  Either one lets interested people trade information.  I’m involved with the MythTV project and when a forum was proposed there was strong resistance from a “mailing-list-or-die” group.  Turns out the mailing list is going strong AND the forum is doing fine.  In fact, there isn’t much duplication between the two.  Once in a while somebody gets pointed to a forum thread or list archive if their question has already been answered.  Not a big deal.

Craig
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Re: Forum?

Paul Franklin-5
In reply to this post by Peter (chamdo4ever)
On 6/25/17, Peter (chamdo4ever) <[hidden email]> wrote:
> but there does exist a Gramps subreddit which I'm subscribed to:
>
> https://www.reddit.com/r/gramps/

Yes, and the Reddit one also points to ones on Twitter,
Facebook, and Google+ (but I've never gone to any of them).

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