Gramps 3.4.8 from GIT --> Sources

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Gramps 3.4.8 from GIT --> Sources

Helge.Herz-2
I know there are some work in progress regarding source references in
events. But on the other hand there is the idea of a release next time.
I wonder if I try to use Gramps 3.4.8 from GIT (on Win 7): If I open the
same source from source view (from here the result in the source editor
looks OK) and from any event or a person I get a different editor having
a different and wrong contend without a connection to related media  in
the second case.

I'm not sure if this is caused by a wrong situation on my pc or by the
work in progress situation.
Shall I file an issue or is it an intermediate siutation because of the
work in progress?
- Helge


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Re: Gramps 3.4.8 from GIT --> Sources

enno
Hallo Helge,

> I know there are some work in progress regarding source references in
> events. But on the other hand there is the idea of a release next time.
> I wonder if I try to use Gramps 3.4.8 from GIT (on Win 7): If I open the
> same source from source view (from here the result in the source editor
> looks OK) and from any event or a person I get a different editor having
> a different and wrong contend without a connection to related media  in
> the second case.
>
> I'm not sure if this is caused by a wrong situation on my pc or by the
> work in progress situation.
> Shall I file an issue or is it an intermediate siutation because of the
> work in progress?
I use the latest 3.4.8 almost daily here, and I don't recognize what
you're saying here. Can you post screenshots somewhere so that I can
compare those with what I see here?

You write about sources in source view vs. events or persons, and in the
latter case I don't see sources but citations instead, which looks right
to me, but with more details I may better understand what you mean.

I run 3.4.8-7a713e8 in Mint 16. If you want, you can also send a direct
email in German with screenshots attached.

regards,

Enno


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Re: Gramps 3.4.8 from GIT --> Sources

Helge.Herz-2
Am 30.03.2014 16:28, schrieb Enno Borgsteede:

> Hallo Helge,
>> I know there are some work in progress regarding source references in
>> events. But on the other hand there is the idea of a release next time.
>> I wonder if I try to use Gramps 3.4.8 from GIT (on Win 7): If I open the
>> same source from source view (from here the result in the source editor
>> looks OK) and from any event or a person I get a different editor having
>> a different and wrong contend without a connection to related media  in
>> the second case.
>>
>> I'm not sure if this is caused by a wrong situation on my pc or by the
>> work in progress situation.
>> Shall I file an issue or is it an intermediate siutation because of the
>> work in progress?
> I use the latest 3.4.8 almost daily here, and I don't recognize what
> you're saying here. Can you post screenshots somewhere so that I can
> compare those with what I see here?
>
> You write about sources in source view vs. events or persons, and in the
> latter case I don't see sources but citations instead, which looks right
> to me, but with more details I may better understand what you mean.
>
> I run 3.4.8-7a713e8 in Mint 16. If you want, you can also send a direct
> email in German with screenshots attached.
>
> regards,
>
> Enno
>
>
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I have there two screen shots
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/v15kvw5bwjctkge/Gramps3.4.8%20-%20sources.zip):
case 1: double click on the source S00002 --> there also (not all shown)
one note, one gallery item, two repository items and one citation (this
citation has references to 4 events, 1 family and 3 persons

case 2: If I open one of the events referenced before and double click
on the source citation shown in case 1 --> headline 'New Citation'; no
note, no gallery item, no repository tab, references as before.

BTW: Also the citation tab doesn't show any media.

- Helge


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Re: Gramps 3.4.8 from GIT --> Sources

enno
Hallo Helge,

> I have there two screen shots
> (https://www.dropbox.com/s/v15kvw5bwjctkge/Gramps3.4.8%20-%20sources.zip):
> case 1: double click on the source S00002 --> there also (not all shown)
> one note, one gallery item, two repository items and one citation (this
> citation has references to 4 events, 1 family and 3 persons
>
> case 2: If I open one of the events referenced before and double click
> on the source citation shown in case 1 --> headline 'New Citation'; no
> note, no gallery item, no repository tab, references as before.
>
> BTW: Also the citation tab doesn't show any media.
This looks ok to me, because you're looking at different entities in the
database.

1. Is a source, and your gallery item and note are attached to the
source, so you see those there,

2. Is a citation from above source, and if the citation has no media or
note by itself, you won't see them there. You can see them in the
source, if you click the edit source button in the upper right corner of
the dialog.

Nick built and I tried this, and then Nick asked the list for approval,
which I think was given, except that Tim brought up an issue that had
already been discussed, on which I decided to stop discussing that.

As far as I'm concerned the new code is OK, except that the title should
not be New Citation when you edit an existing one, so that can be
reported as a minor bug. The window you see at case 2 should show up
whenever you click a citation, no matter whether that is in the source
tree view, the citation view, or an existing one linked to a person,
event, media item, or another thing. I will check that.

To verify, I want to ask you one thing, and that is, whether you can see
any errors, like gallery items or notes that suddenly appear linked to
sources, where you thought they were part of citations, or the other way
around, because that would be a real bug.

regards,

Enno


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Re: Gramps 3.4.8 from GIT --> Sources

Helge.Herz-2
Enno,

Thank you for all your comments. I did understand the situation now. All
my commentsare  below.

Am 31.03.2014 00:41, schrieb Enno Borgsteede:
...
>
> This looks ok to me, because you're looking at different entities in the
> database.
>
> 1. Is a source, and your gallery item and note are attached to the
> source, so you see those there,
>
> 2. Is a citation from above source, and if the citation has no media or
> note by itself, you won't see them there.
As I told, its the same source (see source ID) as in case 1.
>   You can see them in the
> source, if you click the edit source button in the upper right corner of
> the dialog.
OK, I didn't realized that this button bring me back to the source
editor having all information as expected and that the last source code
changes did split citations from sources also for the editors.
> Nick built and I tried this, and then Nick asked the list for approval,
> which I think was given, except that Tim brought up an issue that had
> already been discussed, on which I decided to stop discussing that.
Of course it's my bad to not have done enough during the approval time
before.
> As far as I'm concerned the new code is OK, except that the title should
> not be New Citation when you edit an existing one, so that can be
> reported as a minor bug.
I'll do that.
> The window you see at case 2 should show up
> whenever you click a citation, no matter whether that is in the source
> tree view, the citation view, or an existing one linked to a person,
> event, media item, or another thing. I will check that.
>
> To verify, I want to ask you one thing, and that is, whether you can see
> any errors, like gallery items or notes that suddenly appear linked to
> sources, where you thought they were part of citations, or the other way
> around, because that would be a real bug.
That doesn't happen as told above.

Comment:
But for all users working with one citation per source (as I do) the new
handling is more or less unexpected and and reduces the usability (one
click and one window more to find the related source). I'm not happy
with this solution even it's more regular then before.

Regards
Helge


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Re: Gramps 3.4.8 from GIT --> Sources

enno
Hallo Helge,
> But for all users working with one citation per source (as I do) the
> new handling is more or less unexpected and and reduces the usability
> (one click and one window more to find the related source). I'm not
> happy with this solution even it's more regular then before.
I understand that. I've been used to sources and citations since I moved
from Brother's Keeper to PAF, and I think the new code with one dialog
for each entity is consistent with the rest of Gramps. It is one extra
click, but that is true for many other editors in Gramps.

When I add a person in PAF, or Ancestry, I see one screen where I enter
name, gender, and main events. When I do the same in Gramps, I see half
a dozen screens, one for the person, one extra to add each event, and
another extra to add a location or to choose an existing one. That's a
lot of work, and when I want to enter birth, baptism, death, and burial,
I need at least 9 screens in Gramps, where PAF still has only one. And
in Gramps, it's actually more, because many times I need an extra click
to see whether the location that I want to enter already exists in the
database. In those occasions, it is not half a dozen, but a full one,
really!

If I had the energy to build it, I'd have one screen for a person, just
like Ancestry or PAF, and also only one for each source. I wrote before
that I would like to enter sources like I enter email now. I can see in
the header that you use Thunderbird too, and it would be truly nice when
I can paste a text from a site, or type my own, which is rare, attach
some media, and add attributes to file it, just like I have fields on
top of my email window while I'm typing this. The number of fields that
you need to file a source are not much more than what this email needs,
in that sense that there is an author, title, date, and some way to
reference an individual record via subtitle, person of interest, volume,
page, whatever, like this record that I found on FamilySearch today:

Citing this Record:

"Sweden, Baptisms, 1611-1920," index, FamilySearch
(https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F2SF-S5S : accessed 31 Mar 2014),
Oskar Helge Hertz, 18 Nov 1904; citing Östergötland, Sweden, reference ;
FHL microfilm 1848424.

In this example, the first three elements would go to the source, or
maybe FamilySearch would be the repository, and the other ones to the
citation, where in this case, there is no direct reference to a page or
record on the film, but a person of interest, which works very well on-line.

I left out the actual web page text here, but I would paste that as text
in the source window like I would paste it here, and let the software
figure out the fields shown above. This is a standard citation string,
and I really don't like putting all the items in the right database
fields myself.

Practically speaking, the technology to do this is already there. We
have source attributes, so everything that we can extract from the above
can already be stored in Gramps. And I think that sources can be easily
grouped in a tree view, like with persons, without us creating hierarchies.

In that way, I fully agree with you. It can be done, without much change
in the Gramps data model. I would like rich text and html in the source
text then, which is not yet complete I think, but xhtml is part of the
current GedcomX version, so in a way there is support for that too,
standards wise.

Like it?

cheers,

Enno


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Re: Gramps 3.4.8 from GIT --> Sources

Nick Hall-6
In reply to this post by Helge.Herz-2
On 31/03/14 06:56, Helge.Herz wrote:
> Comment:
> But for all users working with one citation per source (as I do) the new
> handling is more or less unexpected and and reduces the usability (one
> click and one window more to find the related source). I'm not happy
> with this solution even it's more regular then before.

Making the interface more consistent was only one reason for the
change.  It also allows the user to change the source for a citation.  
The new editor is also simpler and works better on smaller screens.

I use both small and large sources.

For small sources, the citation will be empty.  I agree that this is not
ideal.  In the long-term, I think we need to change the design of Gramps
to contain a hierarchy of citations with inherited attributes.

In the short-term, the new functionality should be an improvement
overall.  When adding a source and citation at the same time, possibly
with an empty citation, this will require an extra button click though.


Nick.

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Re: Gramps 3.4.8 from GIT --> Sources

Helge.Herz-2
In reply to this post by enno
Hallo Enno,

> When I add a person in PAF, or Ancestry, I see one screen where I enter
> name, gender, and main events. When I do the same in Gramps, I see half
> a dozen screens, one for the person, one extra to add each event, and
> another extra to add a location or to choose an existing one. That's a
> lot of work, and when I want to enter birth, baptism, death, and burial,
> I need at least 9 screens in Gramps, where PAF still has only one. And
> in Gramps, it's actually more, because many times I need an extra click
> to see whether the location that I want to enter already exists in the
> database. In those occasions, it is not half a dozen, but a full one,
> really!
I agree. There was a thread about the likes and don't likes of Win users
regarding Gramps. I'm not really sure but I assume some of the don't
likes are not only based on the win - linux (e.g locale or style) stuff
but also on the general handling (I call it usability) .

And I'm dreaming of a couple of usability improvements for Gramps for
the future and against other solutions (without any relation between the
order and the priority):
1. Usability following the typical ways and jobs of usage
+ to enter data based on a media as simple as it could be (may be as
your comments pointed out, see also below)
+ improved filter handling / management (may be it's my bad, but if I
built filters than next time I it's more then difficult to reuse one -
especially if there is a hierarchical system of filters --> no real flat
view of a filter definition available, no negation for a single filter
definition line what increases the count of sub-filters, ...)
+ to have the flexibility to handle the privacy of data / information
following the rules of my country's laws without much manually work (not
by a fix privacy flag or by the time since the death event only).
+ simple handling / marking of non-information (that's the hardest task
I think):  Because of  research jobs I know a special event wasn't at
this place or the source isn't to find at this repository --> So I don't
want to search again there. (Of course one may use notes in some cases,
but it's difficult to simple filter for such information if notes were
used.)

2. Working with Gramps off-line (as today) and on-line (having a web- /
cloud-solution) and having the possibility to synchronize both .
Here I see a really major request because the application world seems to
be moving into this direction.

But of course other users / devs may have other ideas and wishes. And I
have no list which features I don't want to loose by an other design.
And before such major changes should be done it's for my opinion
necessary to reduce the Gramps version / variant count (3.4.x, 4.0.x,
4.1, python 2.x based, python 3.x based) to reduce the test and support
effort.

> Citing this Record:
>
> "Sweden, Baptisms, 1611-1920," index, FamilySearch
> (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F2SF-S5S  : accessed 31 Mar 2014),
> Oskar Helge Hertz, 18 Nov 1904; citing Östergötland, Sweden, reference ;
> FHL microfilm 1848424.
Nice example, especially the selected name :-) )
> In this example, the first three elements would go to the source, or
> maybe FamilySearch would be the repository, and the other ones to the
> citation, where in this case, there is no direct reference to a page or
> record on the film, but a person of interest, which works very well on-line.
>
Well, I want to have less windows than currently there and to have
access to the source gallery by a short link (currently I use the
Browser gramplet to have this). But as more I think about I'm not really
sure what is the best compromise. May be it's the way you did suggest.
An other example I see at ancestry.com: less flying windows then Gramps
- but also less possibilities for notes etc. I think we would need some
detailed use cases as base line for discussions before doing and
changing what ever.
> In that way, I fully agree with you. It can be done, without much change
> in the Gramps data model. I would like rich text and html in the source
> text then, which is not yet complete I think, but xhtml is part of the
> current GedcomX version, so in a way there is support for that too,
> standards wise.
xhtml is behind my knowledge at the moment but it sounds good. I'll read
about next time.

Regards
Helge


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Re: Gramps 3.4.8 from GIT --> Sources

Benny Malengier
In reply to this post by Nick Hall-6



2014-03-31 19:37 GMT+02:00 Nick Hall <[hidden email]>:
On 31/03/14 06:56, Helge.Herz wrote:
> Comment:
> But for all users working with one citation per source (as I do) the new
> handling is more or less unexpected and and reduces the usability (one
> click and one window more to find the related source). I'm not happy
> with this solution even it's more regular then before.

Making the interface more consistent was only one reason for the
change.  It also allows the user to change the source for a citation.
The new editor is also simpler and works better on smaller screens.

I use both small and large sources.

For small sources, the citation will be empty.  I agree that this is not
ideal.  In the long-term, I think we need to change the design of Gramps
to contain a hierarchy of citations with inherited attributes.

In the short-term, the new functionality should be an improvement
overall.  When adding a source and citation at the same time, possibly
with an empty citation, this will require an extra button click though.

The one citation - one source users will be in for a nasty surprise though. We can expect some push-back on that. Educating users is important. How to convey the workflow should be: read a source -> create a source object -> create other objects based on what is learned from source, using citation to link them.

As Helge was confused, many other users can be expected to be confused too. Any ideas on how to make the importance of the edit button after source more clear? This could be an ideal start also to add a paste shortcut: paste last used source or something like that. It will avoid selecting or drag and drop from clipboard, which is a great thing (popup on select button could be CTRL+V to paste last source or something like that).

Also, how to avoid many users now only making citations, and not bothering with source? I think you should make the popup dialog  "cannot save citation. No source selected" better.
How about adding a text explaining the relationship between citation and source? We know it, but starting users will be puzzled, and reading the doc is not what they will do. They will raise bugs: can't save citation if no source present. Why? Again, a good place to educate the user in best practices.

Benny


Nick.

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Re: Gramps 3.4.8 from GIT --> Sources

Nick Hall-6
On 02/04/14 23:36, Benny Malengier wrote:
2014-03-31 19:37 GMT+02:00 Nick Hall <[hidden email]>:
On 31/03/14 06:56, Helge.Herz wrote:
> Comment:
> But for all users working with one citation per source (as I do) the new
> handling is more or less unexpected and and reduces the usability (one
> click and one window more to find the related source). I'm not happy
> with this solution even it's more regular then before.

Making the interface more consistent was only one reason for the
change.  It also allows the user to change the source for a citation.
The new editor is also simpler and works better on smaller screens.

I use both small and large sources.

For small sources, the citation will be empty.  I agree that this is not
ideal.  In the long-term, I think we need to change the design of Gramps
to contain a hierarchy of citations with inherited attributes.

In the short-term, the new functionality should be an improvement
overall.  When adding a source and citation at the same time, possibly
with an empty citation, this will require an extra button click though.

The one citation - one source users will be in for a nasty surprise though. We can expect some push-back on that. Educating users is important. How to convey the workflow should be: read a source -> create a source object -> create other objects based on what is learned from source, using citation to link them.

As Helge was confused, many other users can be expected to be confused too. Any ideas on how to make the importance of the edit button after source more clear?

I made the source selector look like the place selector for events.  We could make it look more like the father/mother selection in the family editor.  The buttons could be next to a "Source" heading.  We could add a "Citation" after the author field.


This could be an ideal start also to add a paste shortcut: paste last used source or something like that. It will avoid selecting or drag and drop from clipboard, which is a great thing (popup on select button could be CTRL+V to paste last source or something like that).


Jérôme was looking into this.  He added a "Last Changed" column to all selectors.  I can't think of a neat user interface for this at the moment.


Also, how to avoid many users now only making citations, and not bothering with source? I think you should make the popup dialog  "cannot save citation. No source selected" better.
How about adding a text explaining the relationship between citation and source? We know it, but starting users will be puzzled, and reading the doc is not what they will do. They will raise bugs: can't save citation if no source present. Why? Again, a good place to educate the user in best practices.

Good idea.  The message can certainly be improved.

Let me think about this again from a new user's point of view.  It is not too late to revert the change if we think it is too confusing.


Nick.


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Re: Gramps 3.4.8 from GIT --> Sources

Helge.Herz-2
Just a question: Using large or small sources looking from the citation
side without a missing relation (if I'm not wrong) there is always exact
one relation to one source. Do we really have the need to show such a
situation having two flying windows instead one?

In the the former one-window solution against the new one we did not
have an add or remove source button - new sources can be added only. May
be there is the need for some use cases to have these buttons too.
I never missed these buttons, because I didn't have any use case to
build a citation first - but that may be my way for working. So I saw
never the need for an "add citation" inside the citation view. But
again, that may be way to work. I always generate citations by adding a
source (using the source citation tab entry) to what ever is possible
and I did have the need because here I see what I do and the generation
of the citation itself will be done automatically (less clicks).
- Helge

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Re: Gramps 3.4.8 from GIT --> Sources

Benny Malengier
In reply to this post by Nick Hall-6



2014-04-03 1:24 GMT+02:00 Nick Hall <[hidden email]>:
On 02/04/14 23:36, Benny Malengier wrote:
2014-03-31 19:37 GMT+02:00 Nick Hall <[hidden email]>:
On 31/03/14 06:56, Helge.Herz wrote:
> Comment:
> But for all users working with one citation per source (as I do) the new
> handling is more or less unexpected and and reduces the usability (one
> click and one window more to find the related source). I'm not happy
> with this solution even it's more regular then before.

Making the interface more consistent was only one reason for the
change.  It also allows the user to change the source for a citation.
The new editor is also simpler and works better on smaller screens.

I use both small and large sources.

For small sources, the citation will be empty.  I agree that this is not
ideal.  In the long-term, I think we need to change the design of Gramps
to contain a hierarchy of citations with inherited attributes.

In the short-term, the new functionality should be an improvement
overall.  When adding a source and citation at the same time, possibly
with an empty citation, this will require an extra button click though.

The one citation - one source users will be in for a nasty surprise though. We can expect some push-back on that. Educating users is important. How to convey the workflow should be: read a source -> create a source object -> create other objects based on what is learned from source, using citation to link them.

As Helge was confused, many other users can be expected to be confused too. Any ideas on how to make the importance of the edit button after source more clear?

I made the source selector look like the place selector for events.  We could make it look more like the father/mother selection in the family editor.  The buttons could be next to a "Source" heading.  We could add a "Citation" after the author field.


Yes, to try

This could be an ideal start also to add a paste shortcut: paste last used source or something like that. It will avoid selecting or drag and drop from clipboard, which is a great thing (popup on select button could be CTRL+V to paste last source or something like that).


Jérôme was looking into this.  He added a "Last Changed" column to all selectors.  I can't think of a neat user interface for this at the moment.

But then still needed to open the selector. Perhaps we can use the bookmark menu for paste? Something like paste from the bookmarked items? Perhaps a context menu could list all bookmarked sources? Still selection from a list needed then, but context menu is less heavy than opening the full selector.

Benny
Also, how to avoid many users now only making citations, and not bothering with source? I think you should make the popup dialog  "cannot save citation. No source selected" better.
How about adding a text explaining the relationship between citation and source? We know it, but starting users will be puzzled, and reading the doc is not what they will do. They will raise bugs: can't save citation if no source present. Why? Again, a good place to educate the user in best practices.

Good idea.  The message can certainly be improved.

Let me think about this again from a new user's point of view.  It is not too late to revert the change if we think it is too confusing.


Nick.



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Re: Gramps 3.4.8 from GIT --> Sources

enno
Benny,
> But then still needed to open the selector. Perhaps we can use the
> bookmark menu for paste? Something like paste from the bookmarked
> items? Perhaps a context menu could list all bookmarked sources? Still
> selection from a list needed then, but context menu is less heavy than
> opening the full selector.
Is a context menu like what I call a drop down list or combo box, like
the one we already have for event types and so forth? Just asking
because I'm not that much familiar with Gramps GUI design (rules) yet.

Ancestry has a drop down list on line, with a text that makes it clear
that to create a citation, you must either select or create a source,
and it would probably help to have the same clarity in Gramps.

regards,

Enno


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Re: Gramps 3.4.8 from GIT --> Sources

Nick Hall-6
In reply to this post by Helge.Herz-2
On 03/04/14 07:11, Helge.Herz wrote:
> Just a question: Using large or small sources looking from the citation
> side without a missing relation (if I'm not wrong) there is always exact
> one relation to one source. Do we really have the need to show such a
> situation having two flying windows instead one?

In general, large sources will have more than one citation.

The two window approach has a less cluttered layout and is more
consistent with the rest of Gramps.  It also gives us the ability to
change the source for a citation.


> In the the former one-window solution against the new one we did not
> have an add or remove source button - new sources can be added only. May
> be there is the need for some use cases to have these buttons too.
> I never missed these buttons, because I didn't have any use case to
> build a citation first - but that may be my way for working. So I saw
> never the need for an "add citation" inside the citation view.

A couple of users requested this functionality.  It was not possible
with the old editor.

The main use case was to re-organise sources and citations, such as when
splitting a source.


> But
> again, that may be way to work. I always generate citations by adding a
> source (using the source citation tab entry) to what ever is possible
> and I did have the need because here I see what I do and the generation
> of the citation itself will be done automatically (less clicks).

For small sources, entering a new source and citation requires two extra
clicks - one to create a new source, and another to close the source editor.


Nick.


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Re: Gramps 3.4.8 from GIT --> Sources

enno
In reply to this post by Helge.Herz-2
Hallo Helge,
> Just a question: Using large or small sources looking from the citation
> side without a missing relation (if I'm not wrong) there is always exact
> one relation to one source. Do we really have the need to show such a
> situation having two flying windows instead one?
IMO, yes. Sources and citations have a 1 to N relation, just like places
and events, that use a similar configuration of windows in Gramps. This
sometimes leads to more windows that I'd like, because I need to open
yet an extra one for the transcription text (note), but I like it in a
way too, because it also makes the Gramps UI very inconsistent. We have
views for every entity, and windows too, and once I got used to that, I
learned to appreciated it, because I can now check for duplicates in
locations, sources, everywhere, which is quite hard in many other
programs in the world.
> In the the former one-window solution against the new one we did not
> have an add or remove source button - new sources can be added only. May
> be there is the need for some use cases to have these buttons too.
I just checked, and saw that the buttons seem to be consistent with the
ones for location in the event window. Although there is one difference,
which is that an event without location can exist, the other needs are
the same. One needs to create or select a source, just like on Ancestry,
or in PAF, and I really wanted to be able to change the selection too,
to reorganize.
> I never missed these buttons, because I didn't have any use case to
> build a citation first - but that may be my way for working. So I saw
> never the need for an "add citation" inside the citation view. But
> again, that may be way to work. I always generate citations by adding a
> source (using the source citation tab entry) to what ever is possible
> and I did have the need because here I see what I do and the generation
> of the citation itself will be done automatically (less clicks).
I understand. In many other software packages, and that includes
Ancestry and PAF, you can only add citations to a person or event, and
not without, but in those the number of clicks is pretty much the same
as in Gramps. And in both, and many other programs made in the US, the
idea has always been that you create a single source for like a church
book, or a census, and then add citations for the individual paragraphs.
I have been used to that since I started with PAF myself, and did not
move to Gramps until the large sources change [1] was made.

regards,

Enno

[1]
https://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=GEPS_023:_Storing_data_from_large_sources


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Re: Gramps 3.4.8 from GIT --> Sources

Nick Hall-6
In reply to this post by Benny Malengier
On 03/04/14 09:21, Benny Malengier wrote:
This could be an ideal start also to add a paste shortcut: paste last used source or something like that. It will avoid selecting or drag and drop from clipboard, which is a great thing (popup on select button could be CTRL+V to paste last source or something like that).


Jérôme was looking into this.  He added a "Last Changed" column to all selectors.  I can't think of a neat user interface for this at the moment.

But then still needed to open the selector. Perhaps we can use the bookmark menu for paste? Something like paste from the bookmarked items? Perhaps a context menu could list all bookmarked sources? Still selection from a list needed then, but context menu is less heavy than opening the full selector.

With the old editor, if the user creates a citation with an existing source, they click the "select" button in the event editor.  The source is selected before the citation editor is invoked.  The same method can be used with the new editor.  The source select button in the citation editor is going to be used more for source re-organisation.

When creating a new source, then new editor requires two extra clicks.

I agree that we need to improve the message when no source is selected.  We could also change the text for an empty source to "First select a source ...".


Nick.


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Re: Gramps 3.4.8 from GIT --> Sources

Nick Hall-6
In reply to this post by enno
On 03/04/14 12:44, Enno Borgsteede wrote:
> Is a context menu like what I call a drop down list or combo box, like
> the one we already have for event types and so forth? Just asking
> because I'm not that much familiar with Gramps GUI design (rules) yet.

No, a context menu is a popup menu created when the user right-clicks on
a widget.

> Ancestry has a drop down list on line, with a text that makes it clear
> that to create a citation, you must either select or create a source,
> and it would probably help to have the same clarity in Gramps.

We could change the text for an empty source.  Perhaps something like:
"First, create or select a source using either drag and drop or the
buttons"?

Nick.


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Re: Gramps 3.4.8 from GIT --> Sources

enno
In reply to this post by Nick Hall-6
Nick,
On 02/04/14 23:36, Benny Malengier wrote

Also, how to avoid many users now only making citations, and not bothering with source? I think you should make the popup dialog  "cannot save citation. No source selected" better.
How about adding a text explaining the relationship between citation and source? We know it, but starting users will be puzzled, and reading the doc is not what they will do. They will raise bugs: can't save citation if no source present. Why? Again, a good place to educate the user in best practices.

Good idea.  The message can certainly be improved.

Let me think about this again from a new user's point of view.  It is not too late to revert the change if we think it is too confusing.
I just checked Ancestry, and their source citation screen makes it more clear that you actually need to select a source, or create one first. Maybe we can do the same by rephrasing the text behind the source label.

Oh, btw, in my 3.4.8, drag and drop gave an error today:

Error Details:
===================

4594623: ERROR: gramps.py: line 107: Unhandled exception
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/usr/local/share/gramps/gui/editors/objectentries.py", line 193, in drag_data_received
    self.obj_added(data)
  File "/usr/local/share/gramps/gui/editors/objectentries.py", line 197, in obj_added
    self.set_val(data.handle)
AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'handle'


System Information:
===================

Python version: 2.7.5+ (default, Feb 27 2014, 19:37:08) [GCC 4.8.1]
BSDDB version: 5.3.0 (5, 1, 29)
Gramps version: 3.4.8-7a713e8
LANG: nl_NL.UTF-8
OS: Linux
Distribution: 3.11.0-12-generic

GTK version    : (2, 24, 20)
pygtk version  : (2, 24, 0)
gobject version: (2, 28, 6)
cairo version  : (1, 8, 8)

I was using the source tree view, adding a new citation, and dragged a source to the source field. My source tree was collapsed at the time.

regards,

Enno


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Re: Gramps 3.4.8 from GIT --> Sources

enno
In reply to this post by Nick Hall-6
Nick,
> No, a context menu is a popup menu created when the user right-clicks
> on a widget.
OK. I assume that populating a drop down like Ancestry does is either
not that easy in Gramps, or considered inconsistent, because right now
it's only used for event types and such things.
> We could change the text for an empty source. Perhaps something like:
> "First, create or select a source using either drag and drop or the
> buttons"?
Yes, like that. And and as far as I'm concerned, shorter is better. The
text with drag and drop in it is quite long, and in the Dutch event
window it is truncated so much that the button part of the text disappears.

A friendly imperative style may be the best choice here.

regards,

Enno


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Re: Gramps 3.4.8 from GIT --> Sources

Helge.Herz-2
In reply to this post by enno
Am 03.04.2014 14:41, schrieb Enno Borgsteede:
> IMO, yes. Sources and citations have a 1 to N relation, just like places
> and ...
Enno,
just to clarify: I didn't talked about the relation source --> citation,
because of course there is a 1:n  relation (one source may have more
than one citation).
But may be I'm still wrong: I don't see the possibility to have more
than one connected source to a single citation. And for my opinion
that's the view of the citation editor too. Or how to add a second
source to a citation using the citation editor.  And I don't understand
why we couldn't have the add and remove button for the source in the
former solution.

But OK, I have just my view and there is majority driven decision, so I
won't look back any more and look forward how to optimize the new solution.
- Helge

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