Gramps unintuitive

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Gramps unintuitive

CurtD
This is a phrase you see used quite often when reading reviews of Gramps.
Most often by those new to genealogy and most likely new to Gramps. I
recently set down with my sister and showed her Gramps. Here are some the
questions she had but not exactly the way she asked them.

1. When starting a new tree why does the program not open the "Add a new
person" box for the first person?

2. Why are the addons not automatically added? Do they create problems?

3. If "Relationships" and "Charts" on the left side are only related the the
highlighted person why aren't they both below "Person" and indented?

4. When you mouse over "Relationship" why does the pop up just say
Relationships? Should it not say something like "Add family members" or "Add
Parents, Spouse, Children, Siblings"?

I have used Gramps form 3.X and never gave any of these questions much
thought.

Kurt



--
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Re: Gramps unintuitive

Brad Rogers
On Fri, 9 Mar 2018 06:21:42 -0700 (MST)
CurtD <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello CurtD,

Not a dev team member but the way I see it......

>1. When starting a new tree why does the program not open the "Add a new
>person" box for the first person?

Maybe because it creates, in the user, an expectation that Gramps will
offer relevant dialogs as and when needed?  This is not the case.

>2. Why are the addons not automatically added? Do they create problems?

Not everybody wants all of them.  Some don't make sense if, for example,
you have no ancestors in certain countries.

>3. If "Relationships" and "Charts" on the left side are only related
>the the highlighted person why aren't they both below "Person" and

Those two view modes are relevant to _all_ the people shown.  You can
access them all, edit them, etc. whilst maintaining a view their
relationship to everyone else.  IOW, the side list is merely that (a
list), not a hierarchy.

>4. When you mouse over "Relationship" why does the pop up just say
>Relationships? Should it not say something like "Add family members" or
>"Add Parents, Spouse, Children, Siblings"?

It's consistent with the others in the side bar;  IOW they *all* just
display their title.  I agree, they could offer more insight.  IDK what
it'll be like in v5 as I've not yet tried it.

--
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
He looked the wrong way at a policeman
I Predict A Riot - Kaiser Chiefs

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Re: Gramps unintuitive

Nick Hall
On 09/03/18 14:15, Brad Rogers wrote:
1. When starting a new tree why does the program not open the "Add a new
person" box for the first person?
Maybe because it creates, in the user, an expectation that Gramps will
offer relevant dialogs as and when needed?  This is not the case.

I suggested a quick entry form that could be displayed when opening an empty database.  This could prompt the user to enter details of the home person and close relatives.  Unfortunately, it didn't get much support.

Nick.



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Re: Gramps unintuitive

Nick Hall
In reply to this post by Brad Rogers
On 09/03/18 14:15, Brad Rogers wrote:
2. Why are the addons not automatically added? Do they create problems?
Not everybody wants all of them.  Some don't make sense if, for example,
you have no ancestors in certain countries.

Correct.

Also some addons are only intended for power users, some require extra dependencies to be installed, and others are not complete.

Nick.



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Re: Gramps unintuitive

Nick Hall
In reply to this post by Brad Rogers
On 09/03/18 14:15, Brad Rogers wrote:
4. When you mouse over "Relationship" why does the pop up just say
Relationships? Should it not say something like "Add family members" or
"Add Parents, Spouse, Children, Siblings"?
It's consistent with the others in the side bar;  IOW they *all* just
display their title.  I agree, they could offer more insight.  IDK what
it'll be like in v5 as I've not yet tried it.

The tooltip is intended for when the user chooses to display the icon only.

Nick.



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Re: Gramps unintuitive

Brad Rogers
In reply to this post by Nick Hall
On Fri, 9 Mar 2018 16:34:00 +0000
Nick Hall <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Nick,

>I suggested a quick entry form that could be displayed when opening an
>empty database.  This could prompt the user to enter details of the
>home person and close relatives.  Unfortunately, it didn't get much
>support.

Most of us are fairly (forgive me for this) 'old school', so don't want
the "hand holding" that such a dialog suggests.  The younger generations
(but not all of them) seem to want/require a good deal more spoon
feeding and hand holding than we do.

Before anyone berates me;  Of course, there will be many exceptions to
those massively sweeping generalisations.

--
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         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
Go away, come back, go away, come back
Leave Me Alone (I'm Lonely) - P!nk

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Re: Gramps unintuitive

Brad Rogers
In reply to this post by Nick Hall
On Fri, 9 Mar 2018 16:35:41 +0000
Nick Hall <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Nick,

>Also some addons are only intended for power users, some require extra
>dependencies to be installed, and others are not complete.

I hadn't realised some were/are WiP.  Installing those by default would
be, shall we say, folly.

--
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         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
Love is a temple, love is a shrine
You Have Placed A Chill In My Heart - Eurythmics

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Re: Gramps unintuitive

GRAMPS - User mailing list
In reply to this post by Nick Hall

Maybe the best place for starting a fresh instance of Gramps would be to show the FAQ gramplet in the Dashboard panel.

But the FAQ gramplet also needs a new Top category of "Getting Started"
  With sub-entries of:
1) Setting up Gramps for the first use
2) Creating a fresh Family Tree

After that, the creation & modification of tutorial materials would just require editing of webpages rather than program changes.

--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 3/9/18, Nick Hall <[hidden email]> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] Gramps unintuitive
 To: [hidden email]
 Date: Friday, March 9, 2018, 10:34 uuAM
 
 On 09/03/18 14:15, Brad Rogers wrote:

1. When starting a new tree why does the program not open the "Add a new person" box for the first person?
       
Maybe because it creates, in the user, an expectation that Gramps will offer relevant dialogs as and when needed?  This is not the case.

I suggested a quick entry form that could be displayed when opening an empty database.  This could prompt the user to enter details of the home person and close relatives. 
 Unfortunately, it didn't get much support.
     Nick.

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Re: Gramps unintuitive

GRAMPS - User mailing list
In reply to this post by Nick Hall
Come to think of it, there's a different kind of new user. People who've never used Gramps but just imported a backup or a GEDcom. A link to some sort of newbie explorer topic would also useful.

I've resisted sending out a thumb drive with my entire Gramps database because there's such a learning curve. And, even with years of experience running tech support teams, the thought of trying to describe how to use the interface elements to a genealogy dabbler who is also a tech novice is... unappealing.


--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 3/9/18, Emyoulation--- via Gramps-users <[hidden email]> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] Gramps unintuitive
 To: [hidden email]
 Date: Friday, March 9, 2018, 11:32 AM
 
 
 Maybe the best place for starting a
 fresh instance of Gramps would be to show the FAQ gramplet
 in the Dashboard panel.
 
 But the FAQ gramplet also needs a new
 Top category of "Getting Started"
   With sub-entries of:
 1) Setting up Gramps for the first use
 2) Creating a fresh Family Tree
 
 After that, the creation &
 modification of tutorial materials would just require
 editing of webpages rather than program changes.
 
 --------------------------------------------
 On Fri, 3/9/18, Nick Hall <[hidden email]>
 wrote:
 
  Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] Gramps
 unintuitive
  To: [hidden email]
  Date: Friday, March 9, 2018, 10:34
 uuAM
 
  On 09/03/18 14:15, Brad Rogers wrote:
 
 1. When starting a new tree why does
 the program not open the "Add a new person" box for the
 first person?
        
 Maybe because it creates, in the user,
 an expectation that Gramps will offer relevant dialogs as
 and when needed?  This is not the case.
 
 I suggested a quick entry form that
 could be displayed when opening an empty database.  This
 could prompt the user to enter details of the home person
 and close relatives. 
  Unfortunately, it didn't get much
 support.
      Nick.
 
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Re: Gramps unintuitive

Brad Rogers
In reply to this post by Nick Hall
On Fri, 9 Mar 2018 16:36:23 +0000
Nick Hall <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Nick,

>The tooltip is intended for when the user chooses to display the icon
>only.

Ah, I see.  Not an option I've ever used, so the thought never
occurred to me.

--
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
I must be hallucinating, watching angels celebrating
There Must Be An Angel (Playing With My Heart) - Eurythmics

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Re: Gramps unintuitive

Bryan S
In reply to this post by GRAMPS - User mailing list
First post here-
I've developed some 'sites' in my IT career and have found that a multi-media presentation is very effective to calm the new user's anxiety.
Having the exact screens demonstrated as in the GRAMPS package goes a long long way to introduce a beginner to the flow of the package.
If a beginner is left to just pick-and-choose, the chance of failure and defeat is very high.  Similar to walking someone up to the edge of
a forest and telling them "There is a most beautiful lake in the middle of this forest.  To see it, all you have to do is find your way thru
these tall trees!  Goodbye!"  Most of the time, the huge 'learning curve' is totally unnecessary and in fact, totally counter productive.





On Fri, 2018-03-09 at 18:08 +0000, Emyoulation--- via Gramps-users wrote:
Come to think of it, there's a different kind of new user. People who've never used Gramps but just imported a backup or a GEDcom. A link to some sort of newbie explorer topic would also useful. 

I've resisted sending out a thumb drive with my entire Gramps database because there's such a learning curve. And, even with years of experience running tech support teams, the thought of trying to describe how to use the interface elements to a genealogy dabbler who is also a tech novice is... unappealing. 


--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 3/9/18, Emyoulation--- via Gramps-users <[hidden email]> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] Gramps unintuitive
 To: [hidden email]
 Date: Friday, March 9, 2018, 11:32 AM
 
 
 Maybe the best place for starting a
 fresh instance of Gramps would be to show the FAQ gramplet
 in the Dashboard panel.
 
 But the FAQ gramplet also needs a new
 Top category of "Getting Started"
   With sub-entries of:
 1) Setting up Gramps for the first use
 2) Creating a fresh Family Tree
 
 After that, the creation &
 modification of tutorial materials would just require
 editing of webpages rather than program changes. 
 
 --------------------------------------------
 On Fri, 3/9/18, Nick Hall <[hidden email]>
 wrote:
 
  Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] Gramps
 unintuitive
  To: [hidden email]
  Date: Friday, March 9, 2018, 10:34
 uuAM
  
  On 09/03/18 14:15, Brad Rogers wrote:
 
 1. When starting a new tree why does
 the program not open the "Add a new person" box for the
 first person?
        
 Maybe because it creates, in the user,
 an expectation that Gramps will offer relevant dialogs as
 and when needed?  This is not the case.
 
 I suggested a quick entry form that
 could be displayed when opening an empty database.  This
 could prompt the user to enter details of the home person
 and close relatives. 
  Unfortunately, it didn't get much
 support.
      Nick.
 
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Re: Gramps unintuitive

Brad Rogers
On Fri, 09 Mar 2018 12:48:21 -0600
Bryan S <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Bryan,

Welcome to the list.

>I've developed some 'sites' in my IT career and have found that a
>multi-media presentation is very effective to calm the new user's
>anxiety.

There are some good video tutorials on youtube.

--
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
Who's a sucker now?
Edward The Bear - The Damned

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Re: Gramps unintuitive

Bryan S
Yes, I viewed a few.  Quite good, actually!
 However, unless there is a quick, explicit and clear link/connection from the GRAMPS start page to a friendly place,
the beginner will tend to stumble around for a while.  No reflection on the YouTube productions at all. Its
just that if a new user feels anxious, he/she will tend get frustrated and or make mistakes by trying this or trying that etc...
This problem has been studied exhaustively in the web-market community.  Its actually a very small step but very
important.  When I start people on GRAMPS, I need to repeatedly say "Don't be scared, you can't break
the software"  LOL


On Fri, 2018-03-09 at 18:59 +0000, Brad Rogers wrote:
On Fri, 09 Mar 2018 12:48:21 -0600
Bryan S <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Bryan,

Welcome to the list.

I've developed some 'sites' in my IT career and have found that a multi-media presentation is very effective to calm the new user's anxiety.
There are some good video tutorials on youtube.
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Re: Gramps unintuitive

Nick Hall
On 09/03/18 19:15, Bryan S wrote:
> However, unless there is a quick, explicit and clear link/connection
> from the GRAMPS start page to a friendly place,
> the beginner will tend to stumble around for a while.

Perhaps we could create a wiki page containing links to youtube videos? 
This page could then be added to the FAQ gramplet.

Nick.



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Re: Gramps unintuitive

Bryan S
Yes, that might be a short term help.
I was thinking along the line of the packages that have the small window for 'Tip of the Day' 
or
The login checks to see if there are existing databases:
1.  Existing databases -> Go to the normal startup.
2.  No existing databases
A.  Are you a new user?
Yes
  Would you like to view a QuickStart video
Yes -> Go to the video
No-> Go to normal startup
No->  Go to normal startup

 On Fri, 2018-03-09 at 19:22 +0000, Nick Hall wrote:
On 09/03/18 19:15, Bryan S wrote:
However, unless there is a quick, explicit and clear link/connection from the GRAMPS start page to a friendly place, the beginner will tend to stumble around for a while.
Perhaps we could create a wiki page containing links to youtube videos?  This page could then be added to the FAQ gramplet. Nick. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Gramps-users mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users https://gramps-project.org

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Re: Gramps unintuitive

GRAMPS - User mailing list
In reply to this post by Nick Hall
Bryan,

I can agree with that. My tech support group produced VHS tape tutorials on our 3D modeling software in the late 80s. And, like you, I've built the multi-media tutorials since they became viable with Windows 98.

There are also a number of YouTube introductory videos I'd be comfortable recommending.    

But, as you said, we need to guide newbies through the cleanest path for these kinds of materials too. We can take the repetitive handholding burden off the programmers if they give us a way to push the new users to a tutorial entry point for the Wiki.  

We just have to layer a structure on top of the wiki to support more learning modalities. It seems to cover mostly the reference style user now. There are are also examples.  

It really seems like most of the raw material has been built over the years. But right now it is still easier to ask a question here than to find it in the Wiki.

Brian

--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 3/9/18, Bryan S <[hidden email]> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] Gramps unintuitive
 To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>, [hidden email]
 Date: Friday, March 9, 2018, 12:48 PM
 
 First post here-I've developed some 'sites' in my IT career and have found that a multi-media presentation is very effective to calm the new user's anxiety.Having the exact screens demonstrated as in the GRAMPS package goes a long long way to introduce a beginner to the flow of the package.If a beginner is left to just pick-and-choose, the chance of failure and defeat is very high.  Similar to walking someone up to the edge of a forest and telling them "There is a most beautiful lake in the middle of this forest.  To see it, all you have to do is find your way thru these tall trees!  Goodbye!"  Most of the time, the huge 'learning curve' is totally unnecessary and in fact, totally counter productive.
 
 
 
 
 On Fri, 2018-03-09 at 18:08 +0000,
 Emyoulation--- via Gramps-users wrote:Come to think of it, there's a
 different kind of new user. People who've never used
 Gramps but just imported a backup or a GEDcom. A link to
 some sort of newbie explorer topic would also useful.
 
 I've resisted sending out a thumb drive with my entire
 Gramps database because there's such a learning curve.
 And, even with years of experience running tech support
 teams, the thought of trying to describe how to use the
 interface elements to a genealogy dabbler who is also a tech
 novice is... unappealing.
 
 
 --------------------------------------------
 On Fri, 3/9/18, Emyoulation--- via Gramps-users <[hidden email]>
 wrote:
 
  Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] Gramps unintuitive
  To: [hidden email]
  Date: Friday, March 9, 2018, 11:32 AM
 
 
  Maybe the best place for starting a
  fresh instance of Gramps would be to show the FAQ gramplet
  in the Dashboard panel.
 
  But the FAQ gramplet also needs a new
  Top category of "Getting Started"
    With sub-entries of:
  1) Setting up Gramps for the first use
  2) Creating a fresh Family Tree
 
  After that, the creation &
  modification of tutorial materials would just require
  editing of webpages rather than program changes.
 
  --------------------------------------------
  On Fri, 3/9/18, Nick Hall <[hidden email]>
  wrote:
 
   Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] Gramps
  unintuitive
   To: [hidden email]
   Date: Friday, March 9, 2018, 10:34
  uuAM
   
   On 09/03/18 14:15, Brad Rogers wrote:
 
  1. When starting a new tree why does
  the program not open the "Add a new person" box
 for the
  first person?
         
  Maybe because it creates, in the user,
  an expectation that Gramps will offer relevant dialogs as
  and when needed?  This is not the case.
 
  I suggested a quick entry form that
  could be displayed when opening an empty database.  This
  could prompt the user to enter details of the home person
  and close relatives. 
   Unfortunately, it didn't get much
  support.
       Nick.
 
  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Check out the vibrant tech community on
  one of the world's most
  engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
  _______________________________________________
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  [hidden email]
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  https://gramps-project.org
 
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Re: Gramps unintuitive

enno
In reply to this post by Bryan S

Hi Bryan,

First post here-
Welcome!

I've developed some 'sites' in my IT career and have found that a multi-media presentation is very effective to calm the new user's anxiety.
That's true. I did my first work in IT some 30 years ago, and am also a certified autist (since 2015). My autism has always been there, since 1960, and it makes me appreciate well designed media. For me that doesn't mean youtube, but exact screens like you say, in my language.

Having the exact screens demonstrated as in the GRAMPS package goes a long long way to introduce a beginner to the flow of the package.
And not just the beginner. I would love to see well designed media on subjects like dealing with database problems, handling multiple trees, and dealing with media, and that pun is intended.

If a beginner is left to just pick-and-choose, the chance of failure and defeat is very high.  Similar to walking someone up to the edge ofa forest and telling them "There is a most beautiful lake in the middle of this forest.  To see it, all you have to do is find your way thru these tall trees!  Goodbye!"  Most of the time, the huge 'learning curve' is totally unnecessary and in fact, totally counter productive.
I agree, and I think it's a huge problem on our wiki. It has loads of information for all known versions of Gramps, in loads of languages, and when you try the search function, you get loads of results, and many times not the ones that apply to the version you use, or the language you read. They should always come first, if available.

I know that the information is there, in high quality too, including the subjects mentioned above, but it's hard to find, so I too have a hard time directing fellow users to the right pages. That's sad.

Regards,

Enno


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Re: Gramps unintuitive

Nick Hall
In reply to this post by Bryan S
On 09/03/18 19:39, Bryan S wrote:
I was thinking along the line of the packages that have the small window for 'Tip of the Day' 

We already have a 'Tip of the Day'.  The first tip could contain a link to a 'Getting Started' page in the wiki.

Does anyone want to have a go a writing a 'Getting Started' page?

Nick.



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Re: Gramps unintuitive

GRAMPS - User mailing list
There's already a Getting Started page that can be a starting point. (There really is a LOT of great material but it tends to presented in an overwhelming fashion.)

How about the "How do I start with Genealogy using Gramps?" wikipage?
 english   https://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Start_with_Genealogy
 french   https://gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Start_with_Genealogy/fr     (OK for francais    for some reason, the wiki doesn't like an   en  parameter )
the text could be inviting but that's easily tweaked.

The "Gramps 4.0 Wiki Manual - Getting started" webpage is a bit more technical. Less appropriate if we want to drawn in a wider range of users rather than primarily techies.
 
On Friday, March 9, 2018, 5:15:24 PM CST, Nick Hall <[hidden email]> wrote:


On 09/03/18 19:39, Bryan S wrote:
I was thinking along the line of the packages that have the small window for 'Tip of the Day' 

We already have a 'Tip of the Day'.  The first tip could contain a link to a 'Getting Started' page in the wiki.

Does anyone want to have a go a writing a 'Getting Started' page?

Nick.


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Re: Gramps unintuitive

zed
Sam Manzi <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Newer link for the upcoming Gramps 5.0 release.
>
>
https://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Gramps_5.0_Wiki_Manual_-_Getting_started#Tell_me_how_to_start_right_now.21

Just a thought!  All other genealogy programs I've used
(Windows based) start with entering people.  Is there any
 logical reason why Gramps preference seems to be to start
 with entering sources?

zed


--
zed
I believe that if life gives you lemons, you should make
lemonade... And try to find somebody whose life has given them
vodka, and have a party.


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