Gramps unintuitive

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Re: Gramps unintuitive

davehamilton
Hi zed

> Just a thought!  All other genealogy programs I've used (Windows based)
start with entering people.  Is there any  logical > > reason why Gramps
preference seems to be to start  with entering sources?

Based on the number of people you read about who have to re-research their
family history because they can't remember where they got their information
because they didn't record their sources, then maybe the Gramps approach is
the correct one

Dave


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Re: Gramps unintuitive

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by GRAMPS - User mailing list
On 03/09/2018 09:25 PM, zed wrote:
[snip]
https://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Gramps_5.0_Wiki_Manual_-_Getting_started#Tell_me_how_to_start_right_now.21

Just a thought!  All other genealogy programs I've used 
(Windows based) start with entering people.  Is there any
 logical reason why Gramps preference seems to be to start
 with entering sources?

One of the links in that "Tell me how to start right now!" says why.  Yes, it's more rigorous and less exciting, but saves a metric arse-load of time and effort having to go back "prove" that people existed and things happened.

https://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Start_with_Genealogy

Preparation

If you are just starting your genealogy, it's best to begin with yourself, and add other people as they connect with you.

One of the most important things in genealogy is that you record how and where you found/deduced the information. This is known as a Source. What makes this so important is at a later time you will need or want to revisit this information. Having a source for your information will also create trust with other researchers

So, if you begin with yourself, you are interviewing yourself, which is a primary source on the subject. From this primary source you obtain events such as birth day, baptize day, graduation, ... . The source of the events allows you to deduce a person existed, as part of a family. With this, we have our main terms for genealogy: sources, events, persons and families. Apart from these, Gramps allows you to store Notes, Places, Media (pictures, movies, documents), and Repository.

So, let's now start with adding information into Gramps.

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Re: Gramps unintuitive

zed
In reply to this post by davehamilton
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi zed
>
> > Just a thought!  All other genealogy programs I've used (Windows
> > based)
> start with entering people.  Is there any  logical > > reason why Gramps
> preference seems to be to start  with entering sources?
>
> Based on the number of people you read about who have to re-research
> their family history because they can't remember where they got their
> information because they didn't record their sources, then maybe the
> Gramps approach is the correct one

I wasn't suggesting that researchers don't record the source of any
information they enter. I do realise the importance of doing so but the
approach by, say Family Historian, to enter the names of people first
seems more logical to me.  Enter your own name and the names of your
parents first and *then* create the Source and enter the the information.
To me that seems to be more logical than the sequence described in Sam
Manzi's well written article, which suggests: Create a source, Add data to
the source and then add a person,

zed
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zed
I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly
by.Douglas Adams


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Re: Gramps unintuitive

zed
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
Ron Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 03/09/2018 09:25 PM, zed wrote: [snip]
> >
https://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Gramps_5.0_Wiki_Manual_-_Getting_started#Tell_me_how_to_start_right_now.21

> >
> > Just a thought!  All other genealogy programs I've used (Windows
> > based) start with entering people.  Is there any
> >   logical reason why Gramps preference seems to be to start
> >   with entering sources?
>
> One of the links in that "Tell me how to start right now!" says why.
> Yes, it's more rigorous and less exciting, but saves a metric arse-load
> of time and effort having to go back "prove" that people existed and
> things happened.
>
> https://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Start_with_Genealogy
>
>
>     Preparation
>
> If you are just starting your genealogy, it's best to begin with
> yourself, and add other people as they connect with you.

Yes, I agree with that.  So why not enter your forename and surname first
and *then* enter the source of that information.  Seems more logical, to
me.

See my answer to davehamilton.

[snip]

zed

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zed
The great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do.


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Re: Gramps unintuitive

GRAMPS - User mailing list
In reply to this post by zed



Hi

First rule of software design and implementation
What is intuitive to you is counter intuitive to everyone that uses it
Second rule “You can please some of the people all of the time, you can
please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of
the people all of the time”

The beauty of GRAMPS as I see it is the flexibility, so it does not
really matter which way round you start/create a family tree, the
important point is that at the "end" you have an accurate as possible
documented tree

Whilst the wiki is comprehensive it is confusing to the new user and if
somebody is new to family history and GRAMPS and in some cases computers
then an idiots guide might be more appropriate


Regards
Phil
MLFHS 12583
Dumfries
On 10/03/2018 07:35, zed wrote:

> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi zed
>>
>>> Just a thought!  All other genealogy programs I've used (Windows
>>> based)
>> start with entering people.  Is there any  logical > > reason why Gramps
>> preference seems to be to start  with entering sources?
>>
>> Based on the number of people you read about who have to re-research
>> their family history because they can't remember where they got their
>> information because they didn't record their sources, then maybe the
>> Gramps approach is the correct one
>
> I wasn't suggesting that researchers don't record the source of any
> information they enter. I do realise the importance of doing so but the
> approach by, say Family Historian, to enter the names of people first
> seems more logical to me.  Enter your own name and the names of your
> parents first and *then* create the Source and enter the the information.
> To me that seems to be more logical than the sequence described in Sam
> Manzi's well written article, which suggests: Create a source, Add data to
> the source and then add a person,
>
> zed
>

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Re: Gramps unintuitive

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
On 03/10/2018 01:42 AM, zed wrote:
Ron Johnson [hidden email] wrote:

On 03/09/2018 09:25 PM, zed wrote: [snip]

        
https://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Gramps_5.0_Wiki_Manual_-_Getting_started#Tell_me_how_to_start_right_now.21
Just a thought!  All other genealogy programs I've used (Windows
based) start with entering people.  Is there any
  logical reason why Gramps preference seems to be to start
  with entering sources?
One of the links in that "Tell me how to start right now!" says why.
Yes, it's more rigorous and less exciting, but saves a metric arse-load
of time and effort having to go back "prove" that people existed and
things happened.

https://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Start_with_Genealogy


    Preparation

If you are just starting your genealogy, it's best to begin with
yourself, and add other people as they connect with you.
Yes, I agree with that.  So why not enter your forename and surname first
and *then* enter the source of that information.  Seems more logical, to
me.

I've got shocking news for you, zed: a grand total of three newbie genealogists have sat down in front of Gramps and first entered sources into their very first tree.  Three.

Aaaaallllllll the rest of us clicked on People, because it's right on top, just begging to be clicked on, and didn't even notice Sources, which is hidden near the bottom.

That's right: every one of us, except for those three Felix Unger wannabees just dove right in and started adding people.


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Re: Gramps unintuitive

Kurt Caulley
In reply to this post by Nick Hall
What a great conversation. This has been a long time in coming.
As an end user this is the way I look at it and I do understand the rules.

First rule of software design and implementation
What is intuitive to you is counter intuitive to everyone that uses it
Second rule “You can please some of the people all of the time, you can
please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the
people all of the time” Phil Wharram.
Third rule "You can't engineer an idiot-proof product because you don't
understand the ingenuity of an idiot."

On 03/09/2018 11:35 AM, Nick Hall wrote:
> On 09/03/18 14:15, Brad Rogers wrote:
>>> 2. Why are the addons not automatically added? Do they create problems?
>> Not everybody wants all of them.  Some don't make sense if, for example,
>> you have no ancestors in certain countries.

This is true but as a new user if you don't know what's available the
program seems lacking. Also most new user will install all of the Addons
because "What can it hurt." See rule 3.

>> you have no ancestors in certain countries
Web Connect, great addon and most useful, I love it. Problem for me is you
can't turn off unneeded countries. Rule 3, If you go into Plugins and remove
the countries the next time Gramps checks for updates it will reinstall Web
Connect.

> Also some addons are only intended for power users, some require extra
> dependencies to be installed, and others are not complete.
>
> Nick.

Those intended for power users should have there own selection option,
Developers OS distributions are not your friends, those that are not
complete should be treated just like "Forms" be put in a Testing area and
not available to the general public.



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Re: Gramps unintuitive

Doug-11
In reply to this post by zed
On 10/03/18 07:35, zed wrote:

> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi zed
>>
>>> Just a thought!  All other genealogy programs I've used (Windows
>>> based)
>> start with entering people.  Is there any  logical > > reason why Gramps
>> preference seems to be to start  with entering sources?
>>
>> Based on the number of people you read about who have to re-research
>> their family history because they can't remember where they got their
>> information because they didn't record their sources, then maybe the
>> Gramps approach is the correct one
> I wasn't suggesting that researchers don't record the source of any
> information they enter. I do realise the importance of doing so but the
> approach by, say Family Historian, to enter the names of people first
> seems more logical to me.  Enter your own name and the names of your
> parents first and *then* create the Source and enter the the information.
> To me that seems to be more logical than the sequence described in Sam
> Manzi's well written article, which suggests: Create a source, Add data to
> the source and then add a person,
>
> zed

I agree. Reading Sam's article, even as a Gramps
'old-timer', I can see it discouraging several (impatient)
would-be newbies of my acquaintance.  Maybe the importance
of completing source information could be stressed by a
pop-up after entering a person "Important: Have you entered
the Source information?" or something similar.

Doug


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Re: Gramps unintuitive

Dave Scheipers
In reply to this post by Kurt Caulley
> Web Connect, great addon and most useful, I love it. Problem for me is you
> can't turn off unneeded countries. Rule 3, If you go into Plugins and remove
> the countries the next time Gramps checks for updates it will reinstall Web
> Connect.

Off topic but maybe not. That even veteran users may not know what
Gramps can do.

I have all addons loaded. But I also learned that going to Help >>
Plugin Manager addons can be Hidden so they do not load.

Hide the web connects you do not use. Hide all but the one Sidebar you
like so that is the only one available so only one that loads.

Dave

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Re: Gramps unintuitive

GRAMPS - User mailing list
In reply to this post by Nick Hall
Please, for the love of all you may hold holy,  never layer on pop-up reminders!

To begin with, when doing data entry (without cut&paste), every time you have to switch from keyboard to mouse is a disruption of workflow.

It would be fine to have a dynamic reminders in something like the "What's next" gramplet. They don't have to be dismissed. But it is aggravating to have a reminder that has to be dismissed in order to do something you were either: 1) were about to do without being reminded; or, 2) have no intention of doing.

It would be like the overly aggressive autocorrect and autocomplete that torture us in other applications. I can't tell you how many times I've cursed FindAGrave when a uniquely spelt name dynamically autocorrected/auto-mangled  when pressing Enter to initiate a search.  

--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 3/10/18, Doug <[hidden email]> wrote:

I agree. Reading Sam's article, even as a Gramps 'old-timer', I can see it discouraging several (impatient) would-be newbies of my acquaintance.  Maybe the importance of completing source information could be stressed by a pop-up after entering a person "Important: Have you entered the Source Information?" or something similar.
 
 Doug

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Re: Gramps unintuitive

Kurt Caulley
In reply to this post by Dave Scheipers
On 03/10/2018 07:31 AM, Dave Scheipers wrote:

> Off topic but maybe not. That even veteran users may not know what
> Gramps can do.
>
> I have all addons loaded. But I also learned that going to Help >>
> Plugin Manager addons can be Hidden so they do not load.
>
> Hide the web connects you do not use. Hide all but the one Sidebar you
> like so that is the only one available so only one that loads.
>
> Dave

Thanks! It's not off topic.
The Wiki Web Connect Pack page does not have this information on it.

Kurt



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Re: Gramps unintuitive

GRAMPS - User mailing list
In reply to this post by GRAMPS - User mailing list



Hi

Heartily agree spent more time over the years on the net trying to find
out how to turn things I do not want off than ever have looking for a
function I need

Regards
Phil
MLFHS 12583
Dumfries
On 10/03/2018 12:37, Emyoulation--- via Gramps-users wrote:

> Please, for the love of all you may hold holy,  never layer on pop-up reminders!
>
> To begin with, when doing data entry (without cut&paste), every time you have to switch from keyboard to mouse is a disruption of workflow.
>
> It would be fine to have a dynamic reminders in something like the "What's next" gramplet. They don't have to be dismissed. But it is aggravating to have a reminder that has to be dismissed in order to do something you were either: 1) were about to do without being reminded; or, 2) have no intention of doing.
>
> It would be like the overly aggressive autocorrect and autocomplete that torture us in other applications. I can't tell you how many times I've cursed FindAGrave when a uniquely spelt name dynamically autocorrected/auto-mangled  when pressing Enter to initiate a search.
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Sat, 3/10/18, Doug <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I agree. Reading Sam's article, even as a Gramps 'old-timer', I can see it discouraging several (impatient) would-be newbies of my acquaintance.  Maybe the importance of completing source information could be stressed by a pop-up after entering a person "Important: Have you entered the Source Information?" or something similar.
>  
>   Doug
>
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Re: Gramps unintuitive

Bryan S
I very much like the gramplet idea for helping the beginner since it could be added or subtracted from their main screen at will.
It would be readily available yet unobtrusive since it is part of the GRAMPS design.
Maybe, there could be an icon/button on the uppermost toolbar that, if it was 'clicked', the user would be switched to a Beginners Mode which included pop-ups, drop-downs, suggestions etc...  



\On Sat, 2018-03-10 at 14:46 +0000, phil wharram via Gramps-users wrote:

Hi

Heartily agree spent more time over the years on the net trying to find 
out how to turn things I do not want off than ever have looking for a 
function I need

Regards
Phil
MLFHS 12583
Dumfries
On 10/03/2018 12:37, Emyoulation--- via Gramps-users wrote:
Please, for the love of all you may hold holy, never layer on pop-up reminders! To begin with, when doing data entry (without cut&paste), every time you have to switch from keyboard to mouse is a disruption of workflow. It would be fine to have a dynamic reminders in something like the "What's next" gramplet. They don't have to be dismissed. But it is aggravating to have a reminder that has to be dismissed in order to do something you were either: 1) were about to do without being reminded; or, 2) have no intention of doing. It would be like the overly aggressive autocorrect and autocomplete that torture us in other applications. I can't tell you how many times I've cursed FindAGrave when a uniquely spelt name dynamically autocorrected/auto-mangled when pressing Enter to initiate a search. -------------------------------------------- On Sat, 3/10/18, Doug <[hidden email]> wrote: I agree. Reading Sam's article, even as a Gramps 'old-timer', I can see it discouraging several (impatient) would-be newbies of my acquaintance.  Maybe the importance of completing source information could be stressed by a pop-up after entering a person "Important: Have you entered the Source Information?" or something similar. Doug ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ Gramps-users mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users https://gramps-project.org
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Re: Gramps unintuitive

Doug-11
In reply to this post by GRAMPS - User mailing list
Fair enough. I heartily dislike auto-somethings myself.
But thinking about the beginner again, why not have the
reminder set as default for the newbie, but with the option
to disable it for the practised Gramper? After all, there
are any number of things he or she will be at ease setting
in Edit=>Preferences without batting an eyelid.

Doug


On 10/03/18 12:37, [hidden email] wrote:

> Please, for the love of all you may hold holy,  never layer on pop-up reminders!
>
> To begin with, when doing data entry (without cut&paste), every time you have to switch from keyboard to mouse is a disruption of workflow.
>
> It would be fine to have a dynamic reminders in something like the "What's next" gramplet. They don't have to be dismissed. But it is aggravating to have a reminder that has to be dismissed in order to do something you were either: 1) were about to do without being reminded; or, 2) have no intention of doing.
>
> It would be like the overly aggressive autocorrect and autocomplete that torture us in other applications. I can't tell you how many times I've cursed FindAGrave when a uniquely spelt name dynamically autocorrected/auto-mangled  when pressing Enter to initiate a search.
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Sat, 3/10/18, Doug <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I agree. Reading Sam's article, even as a Gramps 'old-timer', I can see it discouraging several (impatient) would-be newbies of my acquaintance.  Maybe the importance of completing source information could be stressed by a pop-up after entering a person "Important: Have you entered the Source Information?" or something similar.
>  
>   Doug
>


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