Graphic views Charts and Family Lines: how to show dead people as dead?

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Graphic views Charts and Family Lines: how to show dead people as dead?

ceperman
How do I indicate that someone is definitely dead without knowing what the
death date was? I'm specifically interested in the graphic views, Charts and
Family Lines graph. As it stands, having no death event, or leaving the date
empty results in the person still looking somewhat alive i.e. not having a
"d. nnnn" line (Charts) or showing an open-ended "nnnn-" (Family Lines).

I've read some suggestions, none of which seem entirely satisfactory. Gramps
doesn't recognise "unknown" as a valid date, nor probably should it. I saw
this suggestion in a post from 2016:

> I suggest replacing a death date of UNKNOWN with "before 2000" (for
> example)

but using a "before" date causes that date to appear as the definite death
date (i.e. "d. 2000"), which I think is misleading.

What I would like to see is "d. unknown" or range "nnnn-unknown" to make it
clear visually they are definitely dead but without knowing when. Perhaps
these views could use the "Maximum age probably alive" setting - if the
person is older than this and has no death date set then they use "unknown"
as the death date.

I found a thread back from 2012 that discussed this issue, without any
satisfactory conclusion IMO.



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Re: Graphic views Charts and Family Lines: how to show dead people as dead?

GRAMPS - User mailing list
As you stated, for deciding whether a charted person is dead when there is no death event, Gramps uses the "Probably Alive" threshold settings.
(Accessed from the "Dates" tab of the Edit->Preferences...)

You CAN have Gramps generate guestimated Birth/Death Events on demand with the "Calculate Estimated Dates" addon. (added as a menu item under the 'Tools->Family Tree Processing' submenu.) This tool DOES use the "estimated before xxxx" format for Death Events.  Naturally, this causes massive, sweeping changes to your database. And since your database is probably too big to effectively validate the list of suggestions, it is akin to trusting predictive text with autocorrect and blithely sending those messages without proofreading. I'd only use such a tool on a backup Tree to generate the graphs. And then revert to the dataset without guestimates.

As to customizing non-text visual cues for Dead vs. Alive...
You can also configure different Border & Fill colors for Dead vs Alive for Chart boxes. (with controls separated for male/female/unknown).  These settings are applied to the Pedigree, Graph View, H-Tree, & Quilt Chart but not the Timeline Pedigree or any of the Fan Charts.
(Accessed from the "Colors" tab of the Edit->Preferences...)

On Tuesday, October 22, 2019, 3:56:08 PM CDT, Sam Manzi <[hidden email]> wrote:


Hi,

Like how on the Pedigree Chart View " a black stripe across the top left corner of the box is shown if the person is deceased (or determined by Gramps to be no longer alive)" ?

--
Sam

...................
Also have a read of these two feature request:

10819: Show optional Little black strip for deceased people in graphs

3791: [Chart" category > "Pedigree" view] make the black stripes for indicating death optional
...................
Other discussions:
...................
Option that controls if Gramps marks individuals as deceased:
Maximum age probably alive: Default: 110 (years old)


On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 at 03:37, ceperman <[hidden email]> wrote:
How do I indicate that someone is definitely dead without knowing what the
death date was? I'm specifically interested in the graphic views, Charts and
Family Lines graph. As it stands, having no death event, or leaving the date
empty results in the person still looking somewhat alive i.e. not having a
"d. nnnn" line (Charts) or showing an open-ended "nnnn-" (Family Lines).

I've read some suggestions, none of which seem entirely satisfactory. Gramps
doesn't recognise "unknown" as a valid date, nor probably should it. I saw
this suggestion in a post from 2016:

> I suggest replacing a death date of UNKNOWN with "before 2000" (for
> example)

but using a "before" date causes that date to appear as the definite death
date (i.e. "d. 2000"), which I think is misleading.

What I would like to see is "d. unknown" or range "nnnn-unknown" to make it
clear visually they are definitely dead but without knowing when. Perhaps
these views could use the "Maximum age probably alive" setting - if the
person is older than this and has no death date set then they use "unknown"
as the death date.

I found a thread back from 2012 that discussed this issue, without any
satisfactory conclusion IMO.


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Re: Graphic views Charts and Family Lines: how to show dead people as dead?

ceperman
The "estimated before xxxx" format still has the drawback of displaying the
death date as "d. xxxx" - not obvious that this is just an estimated upper
limit and not an actual date.

Personally, I see the border colours as an extra cue, and not particularly
obvious visually. And the Family Lines Graph, which I love, and is what I'm
using at the moment to produce a printed book, doesn't use different
coloured borders.

I think what I want (and I guess suggesting) is just a display option for -
in this case - Family Lines Graph, to display the death date as "unknown"
(or perhaps user-specified text) under the circumstances I originally
mentioned. It wouldn't be changing the database in any way. Is this
possible?





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Re: Graphic views Charts and Family Lines: how to show dead people as dead?

Peter Merchant
This also a bugbear of mine as I quite often look at the 'records' gramplet and it shows me people who I am quite sure are dead, but shown as 'oldest living person' and an age of (greater than 110 years). I spend an inordinate amount of time trying to find a death record for these people so that I can move on.  In Records I would be happy knowing who is the oldest living person, but this is masked by all those >110.

I have just put in a death date for one of 0001-00-00 which was accepted. Now if I sort the People view by death date I can then spend the time at my choosing to try and resolve them.

It's one way, not necessarily a good way, but would probably work better than 'unknown' as a death date.

Cheers,
Peter M


On 23/10/2019 08:15, ceperman wrote:

> The "estimated before xxxx" format still has the drawback of displaying the
> death date as "d. xxxx" - not obvious that this is just an estimated upper
> limit and not an actual date.
>
> Personally, I see the border colours as an extra cue, and not particularly
> obvious visually. And the Family Lines Graph, which I love, and is what I'm
> using at the moment to produce a printed book, doesn't use different
> coloured borders.
>
> I think what I want (and I guess suggesting) is just a display option for -
> in this case - Family Lines Graph, to display the death date as "unknown"
> (or perhaps user-specified text) under the circumstances I originally
> mentioned. It wouldn't be changing the database in any way. Is this
> possible?
>
>

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Re: Graphic views Charts and Family Lines: how to show dead people as dead?

StoltHD
There should be added a feature request for a Living/Dead/Unknown button, like other genealogy software and the gedcom standard support, i have actually not thought about this because I was sure there was one...

j

ons. 23. okt. 2019 kl. 10:35 skrev Peter Merchant <[hidden email]>:
This also a bugbear of mine as I quite often look at the 'records' gramplet and it shows me people who I am quite sure are dead, but shown as 'oldest living person' and an age of (greater than 110 years). I spend an inordinate amount of time trying to find a death record for these people so that I can move on.  In Records I would be happy knowing who is the oldest living person, but this is masked by all those >110.

I have just put in a death date for one of 0001-00-00 which was accepted. Now if I sort the People view by death date I can then spend the time at my choosing to try and resolve them.

It's one way, not necessarily a good way, but would probably work better than 'unknown' as a death date.

Cheers,
Peter M


On 23/10/2019 08:15, ceperman wrote:
> The "estimated before xxxx" format still has the drawback of displaying the
> death date as "d. xxxx" - not obvious that this is just an estimated upper
> limit and not an actual date.
>
> Personally, I see the border colours as an extra cue, and not particularly
> obvious visually. And the Family Lines Graph, which I love, and is what I'm
> using at the moment to produce a printed book, doesn't use different
> coloured borders.
>
> I think what I want (and I guess suggesting) is just a display option for -
> in this case - Family Lines Graph, to display the death date as "unknown"
> (or perhaps user-specified text) under the circumstances I originally
> mentioned. It wouldn't be changing the database in any way. Is this
> possible?
>
>

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Re: Graphic views Charts and Family Lines: how to show dead people as dead?

GRAMPS - User mailing list
In reply to this post by Peter Merchant

Hi All

Grossly simplistic and maybe naive why cannot the simple act of creating
a Death event with no other data set a flag to say deceased for use on
the graphical charts etc


Regards
Phil
MLFHS 12583
Dumfries

On 23/10/2019 09:35, Peter Merchant wrote:

> This also a bugbear of mine as I quite often look at the 'records' gramplet and it shows me people who I am quite sure are dead, but shown as 'oldest living person' and an age of (greater than 110 years). I spend an inordinate amount of time trying to find a death record for these people so that I can move on.  In Records I would be happy knowing who is the oldest living person, but this is masked by all those >110.
>
> I have just put in a death date for one of 0001-00-00 which was accepted. Now if I sort the People view by death date I can then spend the time at my choosing to try and resolve them.
>
> It's one way, not necessarily a good way, but would probably work better than 'unknown' as a death date.
>
> Cheers,
> Peter M
>
>
> On 23/10/2019 08:15, ceperman wrote:
>> The "estimated before xxxx" format still has the drawback of displaying the
>> death date as "d. xxxx" - not obvious that this is just an estimated upper
>> limit and not an actual date.
>>
>> Personally, I see the border colours as an extra cue, and not particularly
>> obvious visually. And the Family Lines Graph, which I love, and is what I'm
>> using at the moment to produce a printed book, doesn't use different
>> coloured borders.
>>
>> I think what I want (and I guess suggesting) is just a display option for -
>> in this case - Family Lines Graph, to display the death date as "unknown"
>> (or perhaps user-specified text) under the circumstances I originally
>> mentioned. It wouldn't be changing the database in any way. Is this
>> possible?
>>
>>
>


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Re: Graphic views Charts and Family Lines: how to show dead people as dead?

Peter Merchant
Phil,
I just did just that, and on restarting gramps the person has disappeared from the records gramplet.   BUT in the people list the death date is blank, as it is for living people.

Having a death date of year 0001 at least shows me that they are dead.

Peter M.

On 23/10/2019 09:53, phil wharram via Gramps-users wrote:

>
> Hi All
>
> Grossly simplistic and maybe naive why cannot the simple act of creating a Death event with no other data set a flag to say deceased for use on the graphical charts etc
>
>
> Regards
> Phil
> MLFHS 12583
> Dumfries
>
> On 23/10/2019 09:35, Peter Merchant wrote:
>> This also a bugbear of mine as I quite often look at the 'records' gramplet and it shows me people who I am quite sure are dead, but shown as 'oldest living person' and an age of (greater than 110 years). I spend an inordinate amount of time trying to find a death record for these people so that I can move on.  In Records I would be happy knowing who is the oldest living person, but this is masked by all those >110.
>>
>> I have just put in a death date for one of 0001-00-00 which was accepted. Now if I sort the People view by death date I can then spend the time at my choosing to try and resolve them.
>>
>> It's one way, not necessarily a good way, but would probably work better than 'unknown' as a death date.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Peter M
>>
>


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Re: Graphic views Charts and Family Lines: how to show dead people as dead?

GRAMPS - User mailing list


Hi Peter

Yes I have tried that but do not like it I was meaning something
different in that you only created the death event and added no data
creating a flag then on any reports or graphs they would set the colour
dependent on the flag not the fact that there was a date of death available.


Regards
Phil
MLFHS 12583
Dumfries
On 23/10/2019 11:01, Peter Merchant wrote:

> Phil,
> I just did just that, and on restarting gramps the person has disappeared from the records gramplet.   BUT in the people list the death date is blank, as it is for living people.
>
> Having a death date of year 0001 at least shows me that they are dead.
>
> Peter M.
>
> On 23/10/2019 09:53, phil wharram via Gramps-users wrote:
>>
>> Hi All
>>
>> Grossly simplistic and maybe naive why cannot the simple act of creating a Death event with no other data set a flag to say deceased for use on the graphical charts etc
>>
>>
>> Regards
>> Phil
>> MLFHS 12583
>> Dumfries
>>
>> On 23/10/2019 09:35, Peter Merchant wrote:
>>> This also a bugbear of mine as I quite often look at the 'records' gramplet and it shows me people who I am quite sure are dead, but shown as 'oldest living person' and an age of (greater than 110 years). I spend an inordinate amount of time trying to find a death record for these people so that I can move on.  In Records I would be happy knowing who is the oldest living person, but this is masked by all those >110.
>>>
>>> I have just put in a death date for one of 0001-00-00 which was accepted. Now if I sort the People view by death date I can then spend the time at my choosing to try and resolve them.
>>>
>>> It's one way, not necessarily a good way, but would probably work better than 'unknown' as a death date.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Peter M
>>>
>>
>
>


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Re: Graphic views Charts and Family Lines: how to show dead people as dead?

Nick Hall
In reply to this post by ceperman
On 22/10/2019 17:35, ceperman wrote:
> What I would like to see is "d. unknown" or range "nnnn-unknown" to make it
> clear visually they are definitely dead but without knowing when. Perhaps
> these views could use the "Maximum age probably alive" setting - if the
> person is older than this and has no death date set then they use "unknown"
> as the death date.

This seems like a reasonable request.

If a person has a death event then they should be considered dead even
if the date or place of death is unknown.  Reports and views should show
a clear difference between a person who is alive and a person who is
dead but with an unknown date of death.

We do have a function to determine if a person is probably alive.  It
uses the "Maximum age probably alive" setting, and also estimates a
birth date from close relatives when missing.


Nick.




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Re: Graphic views Charts and Family Lines: how to show dead people as dead?

ceperman
Nick Hall wrote

> On 22/10/2019 17:35, ceperman wrote:
>> What I would like to see is "d. unknown" or range "nnnn-unknown" to make
>> it
>> clear visually they are definitely dead but without knowing when. Perhaps
>> these views could use the "Maximum age probably alive" setting - if the
>> person is older than this and has no death date set then they use
>> "unknown"
>> as the death date.
>
> This seems like a reasonable request.
>
> If a person has a death event then they should be considered dead even
> if the date or place of death is unknown.  Reports and views should show
> a clear difference between a person who is alive and a person who is
> dead but with an unknown date of death.
>
> We do have a function to determine if a person is probably alive.  It
> uses the "Maximum age probably alive" setting, and also estimates a
> birth date from close relatives when missing.
>
>
> Nick.
>
>
> --
> Gramps-users mailing list

> Gramps-users@.sourceforge

> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
> https://gramps-project.org

Appreciate that. Thanks



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Re: Graphic views Charts and Family Lines: how to show dead people as dead?

Dave Scheipers
Hi Chris

Now knowing who and what role Nick is within Gramps programing, just
because he has expressed the opinion that something would be a
reasonable request, nothing will happen unless and until a feature
request is made.

Go to https://gramps-project.org/bugs/login_select_proj_page.php?ref=bug_report_page.php
 to outline the change you envision and what it will help do in the
graphs and reports.

A link to this thread would be helpful to whoever may take up the
request and do the actual coding.

Dave

On Sun, Oct 27, 2019 at 2:16 PM ceperman <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Nick Hall wrote
> > On 22/10/2019 17:35, ceperman wrote:
> >> What I would like to see is "d. unknown" or range "nnnn-unknown" to make
> >> it
> >> clear visually they are definitely dead but without knowing when. Perhaps
> >> these views could use the "Maximum age probably alive" setting - if the
> >> person is older than this and has no death date set then they use
> >> "unknown"
> >> as the death date.
> >
> > This seems like a reasonable request.
> >
> > If a person has a death event then they should be considered dead even
> > if the date or place of death is unknown.  Reports and views should show
> > a clear difference between a person who is alive and a person who is
> > dead but with an unknown date of death.
> >
> > We do have a function to determine if a person is probably alive.  It
> > uses the "Maximum age probably alive" setting, and also estimates a
> > birth date from close relatives when missing.
> >
> >
> > Nick.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Gramps-users mailing list
>
> > Gramps-users@.sourceforge
>
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
> > https://gramps-project.org
>
> Appreciate that. Thanks
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://gramps.1791082.n4.nabble.com/GRAMPS-User-f1807095.html
>
>
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Re: Graphic views Charts and Family Lines: how to show dead people as dead?

Nick Hall
On 28/10/2019 15:55, Dave Scheipers wrote:

> Now knowing who and what role Nick is within Gramps programing, just
> because he has expressed the opinion that something would be a
> reasonable request, nothing will happen unless and until a feature
> request is made.
>
> Go tohttps://gramps-project.org/bugs/login_select_proj_page.php?ref=bug_report_page.php
>   to outline the change you envision and what it will help do in the
> graphs and reports.
>
> A link to this thread would be helpful to whoever may take up the
> request and do the actual coding.

Correct.  Opening a feature request is the way to move this forward.

I probably don't have time to code it myself.

Nick.




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