Hi From BetterGEDCOM; and Methodology Questions

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Re: Fwd: Hi From BetterGEDCOM; and Methodology Questions

Gerald Britton-2
How about three place events?  IIRC the Pilgrims emigrated from
England, stopped for a while in Amsterdam, then went on to the New
World.  Four, if you count the move from Amsterdam to Leiden in the
middle of it all.

On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 4:10 PM, Doug Blank <[hidden email]> wrote:

> [I think Greg meant this to go to the entire list. -Doug]
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Greg Lamberson <[hidden email]>
> Date: Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 3:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [Gramps-devel] Hi From BetterGEDCOM; and Methodology Questions
>
> Strictly speaking, Emigration is migrating out from a place. Immigrating is
> migrating into a place.
>
> The idea of migrating as, most pedantically, an event with two places makes me
> wonder where such data would be stored? Would one change the structure for all
> events to accommodate this? Would one simply create a new kind of entity or
> table in one's database to accommodate this?
>
> This is an issue that has come up. My questions as you can see relate to how
> valuable and difficult making such a change would be. The problem with this sort
> of change from BetterGEDCOM's point of view is that it's harder to do in the
> rest of the world that uses relational databases, to say nothing of the
> presentation problems (aka application issues far outside BetterGEDCOM's scope).
> Making the addition of another place option on an event would be, I think you
> guys will agree, easily done in XML.
>
> So basically, I'm back to the question: How valuable and pervasive is the need
> to have two-place events? Perhaps these questions gloss over the powerful idea
> of documenting migrations?
>  Greg Lamberson
> [hidden email]
> Co-Organizer, BetterGEDCOM
> http://BetterGEDCOM.wikispaces.com/
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Doug Blank <[hidden email]>
> To: David Lynch <[hidden email]>
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Sent: Wed, December 1, 2010 6:33:45 AM
> Subject: Re: [Gramps-devel] Hi From BetterGEDCOM; and Methodology Questions
>
> On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 3:46 AM, David Lynch
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>  From [gramps-developers]
>> On 12/11/2010 13:50, Greg Lamberson wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I am one of the organizers behind BetterGEDCOM, and I actually have been
>>trying
>>> to join this list for around a month.
>> <snip>
>>> Without reproducing several of the discussions over there, I am certainly
>>> interested to see what you guys have to say on issues related to the data
>>>model.
>>> I'll be looking through the archives as well, and I hope you'll come over
>>there
>>> to help us along with our deliberations even if the issues aren't new to you
>>> guys. We're building broad-based support, and education is part of the
>>process.
>>>
>>> Thanks, and I look forward to your comments.
>>>   Greg Lamberson
>>> [hidden email]
>>  From [gramps-users]
>> On 01/12/2010 04:58, Simon Cropper wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Sounds dumb but I can find any information on how immigration or emigration
>>> events are coded.
>>>
>>> My family immigrated from England to Australia in the 60s.
>>>
>>> What type of event should I create...
>>>
>>> - Immigration Event : Place Australia? or Place England?
>>>
>>> - Emigration Event : Place Australia? or Place England?
>>>
>>> Ideally their should be a migration event where you state where you left and
>>> where you went. No ambiguity!
>>>
>>     Is this handled well in GEDCOM currently? Could it be handled
>> better in a better GEDCOM? The current implementation of gramps seems
>> not to allow you to connect two places.
>
> David,
>
> This situation is not specifically currently handled by any genealogy
> software that I know of. However, it is related (at least in my mind)
> to an idea that we have discussed before: a "relationship" [1].
> Originally, we thought of a relationship as being a way of demarcating
> the beginning and ending of a marriage-like relationship. But perhaps
> this could be extended to capture any series of events that together
> form a single concept.
>
> As Gerald mentioned, most software has an implicit connection "through
> the person that experienced them". However, many consider that not
> enough. For example, if a person migrated from England to Australia,
> back to England, and then to the US, there is no way to tie each of
> those travel events into their beginnings and endings. This is more
> important for marriages, where a person can marry and divorce---even
> the same person---multiple times. Having a date attached to the events
> can help. But again, that is an implicit connection.
>
> A series of events could be grouped together, and each event can be
> marked as a "start" or "end". This could be used for lives, marriages,
> trips, residences, or other user-defined relationships.
>
> Gramps has some support for this kind of an idea already: we have the
> idea of a "fallback" event. For example, if there is no birth event,
> we can fallback to a baptism or christening events; for death we can
> fallback to burial, cremation, or cause of death events. A more
> general approach would allow a user-defined event to be an ending to
> the life set of events.
>
> However, these are just ideas at this point.
>
> -Doug
>
> [1] -
> http://gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=GEPS_001:_Relationship_type_event_link
>
>
>> David Lynch
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> _______________________________________________
>> Gramps-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-devel
>>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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>



--
Gerald Britton

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Re: Fwd: Hi From BetterGEDCOM; and Methodology Questions

Benny Malengier
An event needs only one place as it is attached to one date.
The idea of an itinerary , is a way to group dates and places.

As said by Greg, you haven an emigration event for periods/dates that you leave, and immigration for when you enter a country.
These things should be backed up by a source.

So, in my view, we need a way to link itinerary with events.

Benny

2010/12/1 Gerald Britton <[hidden email]>
How about three place events?  IIRC the Pilgrims emigrated from
England, stopped for a while in Amsterdam, then went on to the New
World.  Four, if you count the move from Amsterdam to Leiden in the
middle of it all.

On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 4:10 PM, Doug Blank <[hidden email]> wrote:
> [I think Greg meant this to go to the entire list. -Doug]
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Greg Lamberson <[hidden email]>
> Date: Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 3:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [Gramps-devel] Hi From BetterGEDCOM; and Methodology Questions
>
> Strictly speaking, Emigration is migrating out from a place. Immigrating is
> migrating into a place.
>
> The idea of migrating as, most pedantically, an event with two places makes me
> wonder where such data would be stored? Would one change the structure for all
> events to accommodate this? Would one simply create a new kind of entity or
> table in one's database to accommodate this?
>
> This is an issue that has come up. My questions as you can see relate to how
> valuable and difficult making such a change would be. The problem with this sort
> of change from BetterGEDCOM's point of view is that it's harder to do in the
> rest of the world that uses relational databases, to say nothing of the
> presentation problems (aka application issues far outside BetterGEDCOM's scope).
> Making the addition of another place option on an event would be, I think you
> guys will agree, easily done in XML.
>
> So basically, I'm back to the question: How valuable and pervasive is the need
> to have two-place events? Perhaps these questions gloss over the powerful idea
> of documenting migrations?
>  Greg Lamberson
> [hidden email]
> Co-Organizer, BetterGEDCOM
> http://BetterGEDCOM.wikispaces.com/
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Doug Blank <[hidden email]>
> To: David Lynch <[hidden email]>
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Sent: Wed, December 1, 2010 6:33:45 AM
> Subject: Re: [Gramps-devel] Hi From BetterGEDCOM; and Methodology Questions
>
> On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 3:46 AM, David Lynch
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>  From [gramps-developers]
>> On 12/11/2010 13:50, Greg Lamberson wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I am one of the organizers behind BetterGEDCOM, and I actually have been
>>trying
>>> to join this list for around a month.
>> <snip>
>>> Without reproducing several of the discussions over there, I am certainly
>>> interested to see what you guys have to say on issues related to the data
>>>model.
>>> I'll be looking through the archives as well, and I hope you'll come over
>>there
>>> to help us along with our deliberations even if the issues aren't new to you
>>> guys. We're building broad-based support, and education is part of the
>>process.
>>>
>>> Thanks, and I look forward to your comments.
>>>   Greg Lamberson
>>> [hidden email]
>>  From [gramps-users]
>> On 01/12/2010 04:58, Simon Cropper wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Sounds dumb but I can find any information on how immigration or emigration
>>> events are coded.
>>>
>>> My family immigrated from England to Australia in the 60s.
>>>
>>> What type of event should I create...
>>>
>>> - Immigration Event : Place Australia? or Place England?
>>>
>>> - Emigration Event : Place Australia? or Place England?
>>>
>>> Ideally their should be a migration event where you state where you left and
>>> where you went. No ambiguity!
>>>
>>     Is this handled well in GEDCOM currently? Could it be handled
>> better in a better GEDCOM? The current implementation of gramps seems
>> not to allow you to connect two places.
>
> David,
>
> This situation is not specifically currently handled by any genealogy
> software that I know of. However, it is related (at least in my mind)
> to an idea that we have discussed before: a "relationship" [1].
> Originally, we thought of a relationship as being a way of demarcating
> the beginning and ending of a marriage-like relationship. But perhaps
> this could be extended to capture any series of events that together
> form a single concept.
>
> As Gerald mentioned, most software has an implicit connection "through
> the person that experienced them". However, many consider that not
> enough. For example, if a person migrated from England to Australia,
> back to England, and then to the US, there is no way to tie each of
> those travel events into their beginnings and endings. This is more
> important for marriages, where a person can marry and divorce---even
> the same person---multiple times. Having a date attached to the events
> can help. But again, that is an implicit connection.
>
> A series of events could be grouped together, and each event can be
> marked as a "start" or "end". This could be used for lives, marriages,
> trips, residences, or other user-defined relationships.
>
> Gramps has some support for this kind of an idea already: we have the
> idea of a "fallback" event. For example, if there is no birth event,
> we can fallback to a baptism or christening events; for death we can
> fallback to burial, cremation, or cause of death events. A more
> general approach would allow a user-defined event to be an ending to
> the life set of events.
>
> However, these are just ideas at this point.
>
> -Doug
>
> [1] -
> http://gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=GEPS_001:_Relationship_type_event_link
>
>
>> David Lynch
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Increase Visibility of Your 3D Game App & Earn a Chance To Win $500!
>> Tap into the largest installed PC base & get more eyes on your game by
>> optimizing for Intel(R) Graphics Technology. Get started today with the
>> Intel(R) Software Partner Program. Five $500 cash prizes are up for grabs.
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intelisp-dev2dev
>> _______________________________________________
>> Gramps-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-devel
>>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Increase Visibility of Your 3D Game App & Earn a Chance To Win $500!
> Tap into the largest installed PC base & get more eyes on your game by
> optimizing for Intel(R) Graphics Technology. Get started today with the
> Intel(R) Software Partner Program. Five $500 cash prizes are up for grabs.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intelisp-dev2dev
> _______________________________________________
> Gramps-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-devel
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Increase Visibility of Your 3D Game App & Earn a Chance To Win $500!
> Tap into the largest installed PC base & get more eyes on your game by
> optimizing for Intel(R) Graphics Technology. Get started today with the
> Intel(R) Software Partner Program. Five $500 cash prizes are up for grabs.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intelisp-dev2dev
> _______________________________________________
> Gramps-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-devel
>



--
Gerald Britton

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Tap into the largest installed PC base & get more eyes on your game by
optimizing for Intel(R) Graphics Technology. Get started today with the
Intel(R) Software Partner Program. Five $500 cash prizes are up for grabs.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/intelisp-dev2dev
_______________________________________________
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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optimizing for Intel(R) Graphics Technology. Get started today with the
Intel(R) Software Partner Program. Five $500 cash prizes are up for grabs.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/intelisp-dev2dev
_______________________________________________
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12