How To Represent A Married Female's Unknown Name

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How To Represent A Married Female's Unknown Name

Dave Gilmore
I have a case where, in an obituary, it lists a sister of a deceased
woman (Kathy (Rosen) Stevens) as "Mrs. Steve Kader". The deceased
woman's maiden name was Rosen. How would you represent this? The idea i
have is:

A person record for UNKNOWN Rosen, M (her father)
A person record for UNKNOWN Rosen, F (the sister)
A person record for Steve Kader, M (the unknown sister's husband)
A family record of Unknown Rosen (father) with the two sisters as siblings
A family record with Steve Kader as the husband and Unknown Rosen
(sister) and the wife

Am I being too presumptuous with assuming some of the names and
relationships? Should I call her Unknown Rosen and list "Mrs. Steve
Kader" as an alternate name? Any other options?

Thanks

--
Dave Gilmore
-----------------------------------------------------

Researching Gilmore, Anderson, Giardina, Renner,
Fellenstein and Conaway


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Re: How To Represent A Married Female's Unknown Name

Ron Johnson
When I don't know someone's name, I use "UNKNOWN".  That goes for both Given
and Family name.

(I'm confused about your example.  How can Kathy Rosen Stevens be "Mrs.
Steve Kader"?  Or is Kathy Rosen Stevens the deceased woman?)

On 03/09/2017 10:41 AM, Dave Gilmore wrote:

> I have a case where, in an obituary, it lists a sister of a deceased
> woman (Kathy (Rosen) Stevens) as "Mrs. Steve Kader". The deceased
> woman's maiden name was Rosen. How would you represent this? The idea i
> have is:
>
> A person record for UNKNOWN Rosen, M (her father)
> A person record for UNKNOWN Rosen, F (the sister)
> A person record for Steve Kader, M (the unknown sister's husband)
> A family record of Unknown Rosen (father) with the two sisters as siblings
> A family record with Steve Kader as the husband and Unknown Rosen
> (sister) and the wife
>
> Am I being too presumptuous with assuming some of the names and
> relationships? Should I call her Unknown Rosen and list "Mrs. Steve
> Kader" as an alternate name? Any other options?
>
> Thanks
>


--
World Peace Through Nuclear Pacification


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Re: How To Represent A Married Female's Unknown Name

Dave Scheipers
In reply to this post by Dave Gilmore
This is what I do, others will do it differently.

Create a family record with Steve Kader as the husband and [unknown] Rosen as the wife

For the parents of the two sisters, I create a family with the sisters as the children. I leave the parents empty and attach a tag to the family: Related Siblings (Unknown Parents) and set the tag color to Red

Of course, this assumes that the sister is someone I would want in the database. I do not use forms and perfectly willing to ignore people in a record if they don't add something to my family. If the unknown sister is a sister-in-law to one of my relatives, I do add them.

Dave

On Thu, Mar 9, 2017 at 11:41 AM, Dave Gilmore <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have a case where, in an obituary, it lists a sister of a deceased
woman (Kathy (Rosen) Stevens) as "Mrs. Steve Kader". The deceased
woman's maiden name was Rosen. How would you represent this? The idea i
have is:

A person record for UNKNOWN Rosen, M (her father)
A person record for UNKNOWN Rosen, F (the sister)
A person record for Steve Kader, M (the unknown sister's husband)
A family record of Unknown Rosen (father) with the two sisters as siblings
A family record with Steve Kader as the husband and Unknown Rosen
(sister) and the wife

Am I being too presumptuous with assuming some of the names and
relationships? Should I call her Unknown Rosen and list "Mrs. Steve
Kader" as an alternate name? Any other options?

Thanks

--
Dave Gilmore
-----------------------------------------------------

Researching Gilmore, Anderson, Giardina, Renner,
Fellenstein and Conaway


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Re: How To Represent A Married Female's Unknown Name

Dave Gilmore
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
Sorry, that was a bit confusing. Kathy Rosen Stevens is the deceased.
Mrs. Steve Kader is her sister and the one I'm trying to figure out how
to record


On 3/9/2017 9:15 AM, Ron Johnson wrote:

> When I don't know someone's name, I use "UNKNOWN".  That goes for both Given
> and Family name.
>
> (I'm confused about your example.  How can Kathy Rosen Stevens be "Mrs.
> Steve Kader"?  Or is Kathy Rosen Stevens the deceased woman?)
>
> On 03/09/2017 10:41 AM, Dave Gilmore wrote:
>> I have a case where, in an obituary, it lists a sister of a deceased
>> woman (Kathy (Rosen) Stevens) as "Mrs. Steve Kader". The deceased
>> woman's maiden name was Rosen. How would you represent this? The idea i
>> have is:
>>
>> A person record for UNKNOWN Rosen, M (her father)
>> A person record for UNKNOWN Rosen, F (the sister)
>> A person record for Steve Kader, M (the unknown sister's husband)
>> A family record of Unknown Rosen (father) with the two sisters as siblings
>> A family record with Steve Kader as the husband and Unknown Rosen
>> (sister) and the wife
>>
>> Am I being too presumptuous with assuming some of the names and
>> relationships? Should I call her Unknown Rosen and list "Mrs. Steve
>> Kader" as an alternate name? Any other options?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>

--
Dave Gilmore
-----------------------------------------------------

Researching Gilmore, Anderson, Giardina, Renner,
Fellenstein and Conaway


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Re: How To Represent A Married Female's Unknown Name

Dave Gilmore
In reply to this post by Dave Scheipers
HI Dave


On 3/9/2017 9:18 AM, Dave Scheipers wrote:
> This is what I do, others will do it differently.
>
> Create a family record with Steve Kader as the husband and [unknown]
> Rosen as the wife
>
> For the parents of the two sisters, I create a family with the sisters
> as the children. I leave the parents empty and attach a tag to the
> family: Related Siblings (Unknown Parents) and set the tag color to Red
I like this idea. In my previous example it required me to assume that
the sisters had the same father and that his last name was Rosen.
> Of course, this assumes that the sister is someone I would want in the
> database. I do not use forms and perfectly willing to ignore people in
> a record if they don't add something to my family. If the unknown
> sister is a sister-in-law to one of my relatives, I do add them.
I probably won't research either of these women much further. But, I
like to add names in as I come across them that show relationships to
someone I DO want in the tree just in case I come across them again.

--
Dave Gilmore
-----------------------------------------------------

Researching Gilmore, Anderson, Giardina, Renner,
Fellenstein and Conaway


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Re: How To Represent A Married Female's Unknown Name

David Reitz
In reply to this post by Dave Gilmore
> On 03/09/2017 10:41 AM, Dave Gilmore wrote:
>> I have a case where, in an obituary, it lists a sister of a deceased
>> woman (Kathy (Rosen) Stevens) as "Mrs. Steve Kader". The deceased
>> woman's maiden name was Rosen. How would you represent this? The idea i
>> have is:
>>
>> A person record for UNKNOWN Rosen, M (her father)
>> A person record for UNKNOWN Rosen, F (the sister)
>> A person record for Steve Kader, M (the unknown sister's husband)
>> A family record of Unknown Rosen (father) with the two sisters as siblings
>> A family record with Steve Kader as the husband and Unknown Rosen
>> (sister) and the wife
>>
>> Am I being too presumptuous with assuming some of the names and
>> relationships? Should I call her Unknown Rosen and list "Mrs. Steve
>> Kader" as an alternate name? Any other options?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>

Here is what I do, with a caveat:

I don't always include relatives that I find of people in my database, but I will if there is some significance to that relative that is important to me. For example, I keep track of a lot of relationships between the people in my database. Relations to famous people, or familial relationships to several different people in different families in my database, etc. A more specific example is when several siblings from one family married several siblings from another family, which happened a lot more often than most people realize.

So, supposing that I want to include "Mrs. Steve Kader" in my database, I would enter her in my database as "Unknown Rosen", and then also add her husband "Steve Kader" (as her husband, of course). If Mrs. Steve Kader is the sibling of someone already in my database and I do not already have the latter's parents in the database, I would add them so that the sibling relationship is created in the database. If I know the parents' names, I will enter them; otherwise I will add them as "Unknown Rosen" (father) and "Unknown xxx" (mother), where the 'xxx' would be replaced with the mother's maiden name if known, or "Unknown" if not.

David

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Re: How To Represent A Married Female's Unknown Name

Doug-11
In reply to this post by Dave Scheipers
On 09/03/17 17:18, Dave Scheipers wrote:
> This is what I do, others will do it differently.
>
> Create a family record with Steve Kader as the husband and
> [unknown] Rosen as the wife
>
> For the parents of the two sisters, I create a family with
> the sisters as the children. I leave the parents empty and
> attach a tag to the family: Related Siblings (Unknown
> Parents) and set the tag color to Red

<snip>

I'd do much the same, except I'd assign Rosen as the surname
of the sisters' father, leaving it to further research to
determine whether or not the sisters had some more
complicated relationship.
Come to think of it, I'd probably also put the mother's
surname as (Rosen), because it often helps when trying to go
back and look for a particular unknown female connection


Doug



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Re: How To Represent A Married Female's Unknown Name

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson

OK.  I do exactly what you do IF the Rosen family are connected to me (or my wife) by blood.  If Kader is my relative, then I record his wife but ignore the rest of her family.

On 03/09/2017 11:15 AM, Dave Gilmore wrote:
Sorry, that was a bit confusing. Kathy Rosen Stevens is the deceased. 
Mrs. Steve Kader is her sister and the one I'm trying to figure out how 
to record


On 3/9/2017 9:15 AM, Ron Johnson wrote:
When I don't know someone's name, I use "UNKNOWN".  That goes for both Given
and Family name.

(I'm confused about your example.  How can Kathy Rosen Stevens be "Mrs.
Steve Kader"?  Or is Kathy Rosen Stevens the deceased woman?)

On 03/09/2017 10:41 AM, Dave Gilmore wrote:
I have a case where, in an obituary, it lists a sister of a deceased
woman (Kathy (Rosen) Stevens) as "Mrs. Steve Kader". The deceased
woman's maiden name was Rosen. How would you represent this? The idea i
have is:

A person record for UNKNOWN Rosen, M (her father)
A person record for UNKNOWN Rosen, F (the sister)
A person record for Steve Kader, M (the unknown sister's husband)
A family record of Unknown Rosen (father) with the two sisters as siblings
A family record with Steve Kader as the husband and Unknown Rosen
(sister) and the wife

Am I being too presumptuous with assuming some of the names and
relationships? Should I call her Unknown Rosen and list "Mrs. Steve
Kader" as an alternate name? Any other options?

Thanks


-- 
World Peace Through Nuclear Pacification

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Re: How To Represent A Married Female's Unknown Name

paul womack
In reply to this post by Dave Gilmore
Dave Gilmore wrote:

> I have a case where, in an obituary, it lists a sister of a deceased
> woman (Kathy (Rosen) Stevens) as "Mrs. Steve Kader". The deceased
> woman's maiden name was Rosen. How would you represent this? The idea i
> have is:
>
> A person record for UNKNOWN Rosen, M (her father)
> A person record for UNKNOWN Rosen, F (the sister)
> A person record for Steve Kader, M (the unknown sister's husband)
> A family record of Unknown Rosen (father) with the two sisters as siblings
> A family record with Steve Kader as the husband and Unknown Rosen
> (sister) and the wife
>
> Am I being too presumptuous with assuming some of the names and
> relationships? Should I call her Unknown Rosen and list "Mrs. Steve
> Kader" as an alternate name? Any other options?

I agree with all that you have written, and would also
endorse your last suggestion; Mrs Steve Kader is her Married
name, and "UNKNOWN ROSEN" is her Birth Name.

  BugBear

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Re: How To Represent A Married Female's Unknown Name

paul womack
In reply to this post by Dave Gilmore
Dave Gilmore wrote:

> HI Dave
>
>
> On 3/9/2017 9:18 AM, Dave Scheipers wrote:
>> This is what I do, others will do it differently.
>>
>> Create a family record with Steve Kader as the husband and [unknown]
>> Rosen as the wife
>>
>> For the parents of the two sisters, I create a family with the sisters
>> as the children. I leave the parents empty and attach a tag to the
>> family: Related Siblings (Unknown Parents) and set the tag color to Red
> I like this idea. In my previous example it required me to assume that
> the sisters had the same father and that his last name was Rosen.
>> Of course, this assumes that the sister is someone I would want in the
>> database. I do not use forms and perfectly willing to ignore people in
>> a record if they don't add something to my family. If the unknown
>> sister is a sister-in-law to one of my relatives, I do add them.
> I probably won't research either of these women much further. But, I
> like to add names in as I come across them that show relationships to
> someone I DO want in the tree just in case I come across them again.

Agree; IMHO it is very dangerous to ignore items from a document because
they don't currently fit your definition of important/interesting.
Depending on the power of your memory, you may well not be able
to recall or find the information should your important/interesting
criteria change in the light of research.

I am quite happy to record "stray" people in my DB, and (in this case)
I would be quite happy to record the Rosen sisters as sharing a family.
Such a decision can always be updated, should more information come to light.

I also tend to create new people, even when I suspect a record
refers to an existing person in the DB. Gramps is "OK" at merging people
(although far from perfect). Splitting a person in two, should you discover
it necessary is truly horrid.

  BugBear

(merging families in gramps is painful)

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Re: How To Represent A Married Female's Unknown Name

Dave Scheipers
I agree with everything you say. And I too have many 'stray' people and ones hanging off of various branches. One of the first things I do when I add an individual is to try to determine if that person is. or may be, already in the database.

Not knowing where the deceased sister was in the 'family' I would need to determine if I would add her sister. If the deceased sister was an 'in-law'... yeah, I would probably add the unknown sister.  But I would not automatically add the sister just because she shows up in another person's record.

So for these strays, I'd want to know how close they are to an existing family member, or if these surnames show up with any frequency  or do I have other family members with these surnames. But I would not automatically add them just because I can.

Dave

PS: when I merge two families, I'll often append  'MERGE' onto the surname of all involved to help isolate them in the name list so it limits merging the wrong 'John Smith'. When I revert the surname to the original, I'll clean up the now merged records.

On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 4:58 AM, paul womack <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dave Gilmore wrote:
HI Dave


On 3/9/2017 9:18 AM, Dave Scheipers wrote:
This is what I do, others will do it differently.

Create a family record with Steve Kader as the husband and [unknown]
Rosen as the wife

For the parents of the two sisters, I create a family with the sisters
as the children. I leave the parents empty and attach a tag to the
family: Related Siblings (Unknown Parents) and set the tag color to Red
I like this idea. In my previous example it required me to assume that
the sisters had the same father and that his last name was Rosen.
Of course, this assumes that the sister is someone I would want in the
database. I do not use forms and perfectly willing to ignore people in
a record if they don't add something to my family. If the unknown
sister is a sister-in-law to one of my relatives, I do add them.
I probably won't research either of these women much further. But, I
like to add names in as I come across them that show relationships to
someone I DO want in the tree just in case I come across them again.

Agree; IMHO it is very dangerous to ignore items from a document because
they don't currently fit your definition of important/interesting.
Depending on the power of your memory, you may well not be able
to recall or find the information should your important/interesting
criteria change in the light of research.

I am quite happy to record "stray" people in my DB, and (in this case)
I would be quite happy to record the Rosen sisters as sharing a family.
Such a decision can always be updated, should more information come to light.

I also tend to create new people, even when I suspect a record
refers to an existing person in the DB. Gramps is "OK" at merging people
(although far from perfect). Splitting a person in two, should you discover
it necessary is truly horrid.

 BugBear

(merging families in gramps is painful)


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Re: How To Represent A Married Female's Unknown Name

Dave Gilmore

In this particular case, the deceased is my father-in-law's first wife. My father-in-law had passed before I met my wife, and little was said of his previous marriage. I definitely don't care to know much about his first wife's relatives except for ways they may help me find out more information on, ultimately, my father-in-law or the children he and his first wife had.  For example, he was from the East Coast. His wife and her siblings were from the midwest. He and his wife moved to California. This obituary shows one of her siblings lived one city over from where it said she died. By recording this sibling, and her location, I may discover both families living in the same house further down the road - thus further filling out my father-in-law's story. I don't care to research their BMD info, or their parents, or anything else, though.

Dave

On 3/10/2017 9:20 AM, Dave Scheipers wrote:
I agree with everything you say. And I too have many 'stray' people and ones hanging off of various branches. One of the first things I do when I add an individual is to try to determine if that person is. or may be, already in the database.

Not knowing where the deceased sister was in the 'family' I would need to determine if I would add her sister. If the deceased sister was an 'in-law'... yeah, I would probably add the unknown sister.  But I would not automatically add the sister just because she shows up in another person's record.

So for these strays, I'd want to know how close they are to an existing family member, or if these surnames show up with any frequency  or do I have other family members with these surnames. But I would not automatically add them just because I can.

Dave

PS: when I merge two families, I'll often append  'MERGE' onto the surname of all involved to help isolate them in the name list so it limits merging the wrong 'John Smith'. When I revert the surname to the original, I'll clean up the now merged records.

On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 4:58 AM, paul womack <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dave Gilmore wrote:
HI Dave


On 3/9/2017 9:18 AM, Dave Scheipers wrote:
This is what I do, others will do it differently.

Create a family record with Steve Kader as the husband and [unknown]
Rosen as the wife

For the parents of the two sisters, I create a family with the sisters
as the children. I leave the parents empty and attach a tag to the
family: Related Siblings (Unknown Parents) and set the tag color to Red
I like this idea. In my previous example it required me to assume that
the sisters had the same father and that his last name was Rosen.
Of course, this assumes that the sister is someone I would want in the
database. I do not use forms and perfectly willing to ignore people in
a record if they don't add something to my family. If the unknown
sister is a sister-in-law to one of my relatives, I do add them.
I probably won't research either of these women much further. But, I
like to add names in as I come across them that show relationships to
someone I DO want in the tree just in case I come across them again.

Agree; IMHO it is very dangerous to ignore items from a document because
they don't currently fit your definition of important/interesting.
Depending on the power of your memory, you may well not be able
to recall or find the information should your important/interesting
criteria change in the light of research.

I am quite happy to record "stray" people in my DB, and (in this case)
I would be quite happy to record the Rosen sisters as sharing a family.
Such a decision can always be updated, should more information come to light.

I also tend to create new people, even when I suspect a record
refers to an existing person in the DB. Gramps is "OK" at merging people
(although far from perfect). Splitting a person in two, should you discover
it necessary is truly horrid.

 BugBear

(merging families in gramps is painful)



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Re: How To Represent A Married Female's Unknown Name

Dave Scheipers
Hi Dave

Considering all that, I would add the sister and her husband as I state above. And you stated why you should do it based upon what you just posted. YOU see how this info may help you flesh out your father-in-law's life. And while this sister may not have a personal connection to you, she would be connected to your children's grandfather.

For all people I've added to the database, I will at least find the BMD info if for no other reason that if I add another person with the same/similar name, having the BMD will show they are different (or not) people. I would not add their parents but I would check my database to confirm the parents are not there.

Dave

On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Dave Gilmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

In this particular case, the deceased is my father-in-law's first wife. My father-in-law had passed before I met my wife, and little was said of his previous marriage. I definitely don't care to know much about his first wife's relatives except for ways they may help me find out more information on, ultimately, my father-in-law or the children he and his first wife had.  For example, he was from the East Coast. His wife and her siblings were from the midwest. He and his wife moved to California. This obituary shows one of her siblings lived one city over from where it said she died. By recording this sibling, and her location, I may discover both families living in the same house further down the road - thus further filling out my father-in-law's story. I don't care to research their BMD info, or their parents, or anything else, though.

Dave


On 3/10/2017 9:20 AM, Dave Scheipers wrote:
I agree with everything you say. And I too have many 'stray' people and ones hanging off of various branches. One of the first things I do when I add an individual is to try to determine if that person is. or may be, already in the database.

Not knowing where the deceased sister was in the 'family' I would need to determine if I would add her sister. If the deceased sister was an 'in-law'... yeah, I would probably add the unknown sister.  But I would not automatically add the sister just because she shows up in another person's record.

So for these strays, I'd want to know how close they are to an existing family member, or if these surnames show up with any frequency  or do I have other family members with these surnames. But I would not automatically add them just because I can.

Dave

PS: when I merge two families, I'll often append  'MERGE' onto the surname of all involved to help isolate them in the name list so it limits merging the wrong 'John Smith'. When I revert the surname to the original, I'll clean up the now merged records.

On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 4:58 AM, paul womack <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dave Gilmore wrote:
HI Dave


On 3/9/2017 9:18 AM, Dave Scheipers wrote:
This is what I do, others will do it differently.

Create a family record with Steve Kader as the husband and [unknown]
Rosen as the wife

For the parents of the two sisters, I create a family with the sisters
as the children. I leave the parents empty and attach a tag to the
family: Related Siblings (Unknown Parents) and set the tag color to Red
I like this idea. In my previous example it required me to assume that
the sisters had the same father and that his last name was Rosen.
Of course, this assumes that the sister is someone I would want in the
database. I do not use forms and perfectly willing to ignore people in
a record if they don't add something to my family. If the unknown
sister is a sister-in-law to one of my relatives, I do add them.
I probably won't research either of these women much further. But, I
like to add names in as I come across them that show relationships to
someone I DO want in the tree just in case I come across them again.

Agree; IMHO it is very dangerous to ignore items from a document because
they don't currently fit your definition of important/interesting.
Depending on the power of your memory, you may well not be able
to recall or find the information should your important/interesting
criteria change in the light of research.

I am quite happy to record "stray" people in my DB, and (in this case)
I would be quite happy to record the Rosen sisters as sharing a family.
Such a decision can always be updated, should more information come to light.

I also tend to create new people, even when I suspect a record
refers to an existing person in the DB. Gramps is "OK" at merging people
(although far from perfect). Splitting a person in two, should you discover
it necessary is truly horrid.

 BugBear

(merging families in gramps is painful)




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Re: How To Represent A Married Female's Unknown Name

Dave Gilmore

Hi Dave



For all people I've added to the database, I will at least find the BMD info if for no other reason that if I add another person with the same/similar name, having the BMD will show they are different (or not) people. I would not add their parents but I would check my database to confirm the parents are not there.

Great point. Hadn't considered that.

Dave

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