How to enter a mixed patronymic/patrilineal name in Gramps.

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How to enter a mixed patronymic/patrilineal name in Gramps.

John W. Kitz-3
All,

How should a mixed patronymic/patrilineal name be entered in Gramps?

An example would be the (full) name Pier Klasens Evers, of which Evers is
treated as the patrilineal lastname (a son of Pier is named Pieter Evers on
his birth certificate) while Klasens seems to be patronymic in origin (is
doesn't carry over to Pier's son Pieter).

I tried using the multiple surnames option, with Evers set as
patrilineal/primary and Klasens as patronymic, but that causes the name to
be printed as 'Evers Klasens, Pier' as opposed to Klasens Evers, Pier on the
CDR.

Changing it to Evers set as patrilineal and Klasens as patronymic/primary
causes the name to be sorted as a lastname starting with a K rather than
with an E, while it still (IMHO incorrectly) appears on the CDR as Evers
Klasens, Pier rather than Klasens Evers, Pier.

Suggestions appreciated.

Regards, Jk.


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Re: How to enter a mixed patronymic/patrilineal name in Gramps.

Dave Scheipers
Hi John

It sounds as if this is the same as a Russian name; Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin. In this case I would put the given name Vladimir Vladimirovich and the surname Putin. Or Olga Vladimirovna Putin

So in your example given = Pier Klasens  and the surname = Evers

An alternative would be to put Klasens as a prefix to the surname, The field where you normally would but the "de" or "von" part of a name. Although, I do not know if this truly reflects what you suggest. It does have the ability to properly sort the name leaving the surname field itself as is. 

Just my 2 cents, Dave



On Fri, Jun 16, 2017 at 5:06 PM, John W. Kitz <[hidden email]> wrote:
All,

How should a mixed patronymic/patrilineal name be entered in Gramps?

An example would be the (full) name Pier Klasens Evers, of which Evers is
treated as the patrilineal lastname (a son of Pier is named Pieter Evers on
his birth certificate) while Klasens seems to be patronymic in origin (is
doesn't carry over to Pier's son Pieter).

I tried using the multiple surnames option, with Evers set as
patrilineal/primary and Klasens as patronymic, but that causes the name to
be printed as 'Evers Klasens, Pier' as opposed to Klasens Evers, Pier on the
CDR.

Changing it to Evers set as patrilineal and Klasens as patronymic/primary
causes the name to be sorted as a lastname starting with a K rather than
with an E, while it still (IMHO incorrectly) appears on the CDR as Evers
Klasens, Pier rather than Klasens Evers, Pier.

Suggestions appreciated.

Regards, Jk.


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Re: How to enter a mixed patronymic/patrilineal name in Gramps.

John W. Kitz-3
Dave,

On 2017-06-17 00:16, Dave Scheipers wrote:
> Hi John
>
> It sounds as if this is the same as a Russian name; Vladimir
> Vladimir-ovich Putin. In this case I would put the given name Vladimir
> Vladimir-ovich and the surname Putin. Or Olga Vladimir-ovna Putin.

The above would apply as an example[1] with regards to my question if
Vladimir Vladimir-ovich Putin would have been born around the late
1700's and would have had a son (according to his birth certificate)
named Vladimir Putin (i.e. the, what I understand to be, patronymic part
of his name wasn't passed on to his son).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patronymic#Russian

> So in your example given = Pier Klasens  and the surname = Evers

As for the name; its origin lie in an era in which AFAIK people weren't
required to have a last name, i.e. Pier (Pete or Peter in English) was a
son of Klaas (Charles in English) who in turn was a son of Evert (I
don't know what that would translate to in English).

For one because Klasen or Klasens (both appear in records pertaining to
this example) is, as opposed to Klaas, not a typical middle name I
suspect Pier's father's first name was Klaas and he went by Klaas Evers
(short for son of Evert) and similarly Klaas' son Pier went by Pier
Klasen(s) (short for son of Klaas) Evers.

Pier's son Pieter however was born in a era (early 1800's) in which the
transition was made from church to civic records and people were (by
law) required to have a last name, so I suspect (in order to meet that
legal requirement) the family at some point choose Evers (son of Evert)
as their family name since it was older and therefor more representative
of the familie's origins than Klasen or Klasens.

In addition it is my understanding that, in order to do justice to the
historical origin of such names, patronymic[2] names ought to be treated
different from what we today refer to as a middle name, which is why I
made use of the options available to me in Gramps as described in my
initial email. But I can't seem to get them to work for me as I would
expect them to.

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patronymic

> An alternative would be to put Klasens as a prefix to the surname, The
> field where you normally would but the "de" or "von" part of a name.
> Although, I do not know if this truly reflects what you suggest. It
> does have the ability to properly sort the name leaving the surname
> field itself as is.

The thought to solve it as described by you above had crossed my mind
and it would solve the sorting and reporting issues, but (unless my
understanding of patronymic names is flawed) IMHO opinion wouldn't do
justice to the patronymic nature of (portions of) the name.

> Just my 2 cents, Dave

Thanks for taking the time to respond and regards, Jk.

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