How to handle places changing names

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How to handle places changing names

Craig J. Anderson
I have three children.  All born in the same hospital.  But the name changed before our third child was born.  so the place is the same, just the name is now different.  And I am sure that its name may change before they are old. 

How would I best deal with this?  Make two places?  One place doesn't seem to work well within the reports.  Or is there a better way?

thanks.

  Craig A.

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Re: How to handle places changing names

Pat Clark
I would keep the original name and then add an event note to the birth, listing the new(er) names and dates of change.

And using the using the places editor add a note about the name changes.

This is just my way, others will have a different method. Gramps lets us do things like this however we want.

Pat

On 10/08/2013 10:48 AM, Craig J. Anderson wrote:
I have three children.  All born in the same hospital.  But the name changed before our third child was born.  so the place is the same, just the name is now different.  And I am sure that its name may change before they are old. 

How would I best deal with this?  Make two places?  One place doesn't seem to work well within the reports.  Or is there a better way?

thanks.

  Craig A.


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Re: How to handle places changing names

paul womack
In reply to this post by Craig J. Anderson
Craig J. Anderson wrote:
> I have three children.  All born in the same hospital.  But the name changed before our third child was born.  so the place is the same, just the name is now different.  And I am sure that its name may change before they are old.
>
> How would I best deal with this?  Make two places?  One place doesn't seem to work well within the reports.  Or is there a better way?

Leave the "main" name as whatever you find most memorable, and put the other names in a note.

It's a single place - that's important.

  BugBear


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Re: How to handle places changing names

paul womack
In reply to this post by Pat Clark
Pat Clark wrote:
> I would keep the original name and then add an event note to the birth, listing the new(er) names and dates of change.
>
> And using the using the places editor add a note about the name changes.
>
> This is just my way, others will have a different method. Gramps lets us do things like this however we want.

I often notice people claiming claiming Gramps lets you store
information however you choose.

This is true, but only for *storing* data,

In practice, if you wish your data to "play nice"
with the built in Gramps navigation, searching, and reporting
tools, your choices must be reasonably constrained
by context.

To be clear, I think this is perfectly reasonable,
and is one of the reasons I keep asking for a guide
to "normal practise".

  BugBear

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Re: How to handle places changing names

ACProctor
I'm not sure how flexible and accommodating Gramps is in respect of
place-names. However, the approach that most people adopt is generally
unworkable in the long term.

There's a write-up of this issue that you might find interesting at:
http://parallax-viewpoint.blogspot.com/2013/08/a-place-for-everything.html.

    Tony Proctor

----- Original Message -----
From: "paul womack" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 8:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] How to handle places changing names


> Pat Clark wrote:
>> I would keep the original name and then add an event note to the birth,
>> listing the new(er) names and dates of change.
>>
>> And using the using the places editor add a note about the name changes.
>>
>> This is just my way, others will have a different method. Gramps lets us
>> do things like this however we want.
>
> I often notice people claiming claiming Gramps lets you store
> information however you choose.
>
> This is true, but only for *storing* data,
>
> In practice, if you wish your data to "play nice"
> with the built in Gramps navigation, searching, and reporting
> tools, your choices must be reasonably constrained
> by context.
>
> To be clear, I think this is perfectly reasonable,
> and is one of the reasons I keep asking for a guide
> to "normal practise".
>
>  BugBear
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> from
> the latest Intel processors and coprocessors. See abstracts and register >
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users 


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Re: How to handle places changing names

paul womack
Tony Proctor wrote:
> I'm not sure how flexible and accommodating Gramps is in respect of place-names. However, the approach that most people adopt is generally unworkable in the long term.
>
> There's a write-up of this issue that you might find interesting at: http://parallax-viewpoint.blogspot.com/2013/08/a-place-for-everything.html.

SInce Gramps (nicely) supports a Place-ID, and lat/long coordinates,
I use that. The synthetic ID is the "true" name, and the lat-long puts it
on a map for me. The "name" field is just a mnemonic, and is mainly
used for re-locating a place when a new record needs a place
I already have.

The only thing this doesn't support is textual recognition
of "near" places in the hierachical manner you describe,

But I find in practice that a quick (annd often enjoyable) wander around
the geography view addressed most of those issues.

I DO spend a lot of time finding lat/long for long demolished and forgotten
streets though.

  BugBear

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Re: How to handle places changing names

ACProctor
I don't dispute that coordinates are useful Paul (although very hard to get
for places that do not exist anymore) but I do believe that reducing a place
to a bunch of numbers (ID + coords) is insufficient. If a place-of-birth,
for instance, is simply given as a county name (I'm thinking "UK" here) then
the coordinates of the centre-point of that county don't really tell you
much. The actual administrative boundaries of the place (which could have
changed over time) may determine which towns or villages are likely worth
investigating. To me, it's a little like reducing a person to an ID+social
security number, and the blogpost does make the point that persons and
places can be treated similarly to good effect.

    Tony Proctor

----- Original Message -----
From: "paul womack" <[hidden email]>
To: "Tony Proctor" <[hidden email]>; "Craig J. Anderson"
<[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 10:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] How to handle places changing names


> Tony Proctor wrote:
>> I'm not sure how flexible and accommodating Gramps is in respect of
>> place-names. However, the approach that most people adopt is generally
>> unworkable in the long term.
>>
>> There's a write-up of this issue that you might find interesting at:
>> http://parallax-viewpoint.blogspot.com/2013/08/a-place-for-everything.html.
>
> SInce Gramps (nicely) supports a Place-ID, and lat/long coordinates,
> I use that. The synthetic ID is the "true" name, and the lat-long puts it
> on a map for me. The "name" field is just a mnemonic, and is mainly
> used for re-locating a place when a new record needs a place
> I already have.
>
> The only thing this doesn't support is textual recognition
> of "near" places in the hierachical manner you describe,
>
> But I find in practice that a quick (annd often enjoyable) wander around
> the geography view addressed most of those issues.
>
> I DO spend a lot of time finding lat/long for long demolished and
> forgotten
> streets though.
>
>  BugBear


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Re: How to handle places changing names

enno
In reply to this post by Craig J. Anderson
Craig,
I have three children.  All born in the same hospital.  But the name changed before our third child was born.  so the place is the same, just the name is now different.  And I am sure that its name may change before they are old. 

How would I best deal with this?  Make two places?  One place doesn't seem to work well within the reports.  Or is there a better way?
I think two places is the best choice. It works well in reports, and you can simply enter the same street address for both.

As far as I'm concerned, adding notes just complicates things, because you can not always control where notes are displayed, if at all.

And when place hierarchies are introduced some time, having two now will probably allow you to put them in the same hierarchy then. And that's a chance you'll miss when you use one place now.

regards,

Enno


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Re: How to handle places changing names

Nick Hall-6
In reply to this post by Craig J. Anderson
On 08/10/13 01:18, Craig J. Anderson wrote:
> I have three children.  All born in the same hospital.  But the name
> changed before our third child was born. so the place is the same,
> just the name is now different.  And I am sure that its name may
> change before they are old.
>
> How would I best deal with this?  Make two places?  One place doesn't
> seem to work well within the reports.  Or is there a better way?

Your options are limited at the moment.  The best way would be to create
two places.

In most reports and you will find that only the place title is
displayed.  The location fields (country, county, city etc...) are
displayed in the place views, and are used to build the place hierarchy
for the place tree view.

You can created alternative locations for a place.  These are used in
the filters.  The problem is that you can't specify a particular
location when you link a place to an event.


Nick.


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Re: How to handle places changing names

Nick Hall-6
In reply to this post by ACProctor
On 08/10/13 10:03, Tony Proctor wrote:
> I'm not sure how flexible and accommodating Gramps is in respect of
> place-names. However, the approach that most people adopt is generally
> unworkable in the long term.

At the moment Gramps records places in a flat structure with fixed
fields.  It allows multiple locations per place, but they are not
particularly useful.

Improvements are planned though:

http://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=GEPS_006:_Better_Place_handling

Last year I wrote a prototype to investigate a hierarchical data structure:

http://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=GEPS_006:_Prototype

The prototype keeps the existing Place object to hold genealogical data,
but creates a new Location object to hold physical location data.  These
Locations are stored in a hierarchy.

I also investigated a couple of new widgets which exploit this new data
structure.

All the feedback I received was positive, but not many people seemed
interested at the time.  Perhaps I should raise it on the development
list again for inclusion in v4.1?

Regards,


Nick.


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Re: How to handle places changing names

Craig Treleaven
At 5:06 PM +0100 10/8/13, Nick Hall wrote:

>On 08/10/13 10:03, Tony Proctor wrote:
>>  I'm not sure how flexible and accommodating Gramps is in respect of
>>  place-names. However, the approach that most people adopt is generally
>>  unworkable in the long term.
>
>At the moment Gramps records places in a flat structure with fixed
>fields.  It allows multiple locations per place, but they are not
>particularly useful.
>
>Improvements are planned though:
>
>http://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=GEPS_006:_Better_Place_handling
>
>Last year I wrote a prototype to investigate a hierarchical data structure:
>
>http://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=GEPS_006:_Prototype
>
>The prototype keeps the existing Place object to hold genealogical data,
>but creates a new Location object to hold physical location data.  These
>Locations are stored in a hierarchy.
>
>I also investigated a couple of new widgets which exploit this new data
>structure.
>
>All the feedback I received was positive, but not many people seemed
>interested at the time.  Perhaps I should raise it on the development
>list again for inclusion in v4.1?

Nick, could you outline how the hierarchy will work.  In my case,
many of my ancestors came to an area of Southern Ontario, Canada,
near the border between Bruce and Huron counties.  Can you specify a
radius (40km, ~25 miles) or does the hierarchy only work on political
boundaries?

Craig

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Re: How to handle places changing names

Nick Hall-6
On 08/10/13 17:28, Craig Treleaven wrote:

>> Last year I wrote a prototype to investigate a hierarchical data
>> structure:
>>
>> http://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=GEPS_006:_Prototype
>>
>> The prototype keeps the existing Place object to hold genealogical data,
>> but creates a new Location object to hold physical location data.  These
>> Locations are stored in a hierarchy.
>>
>> I also investigated a couple of new widgets which exploit this new data
>> structure.
>>
>> All the feedback I received was positive, but not many people seemed
>> interested at the time.  Perhaps I should raise it on the development
>> list again for inclusion in v4.1?
>
> Nick, could you outline how the hierarchy will work.  In my case, many
> of my ancestors came to an area of Southern Ontario, Canada, near the
> border between Bruce and Huron counties.  Can you specify a radius
> (40km, ~25 miles) or does the hierarchy only work on political
> boundaries?

Instead of a place being represented by a single record in the database,
it would consist of a hierarchy of places.

In your example, you would create a location called "Canada" and flag it
as a country.  You would the create a location called "Ontario" and flag
it as a "Province".  "Ontario" would have "Canada" as its parent.  Then
you would create locations for the counties, with the provinces as the
parents.

This allows you a create a very flexible structure in which locations
such as "Canada" are re-used for many places.

Your existing data will be converted and locations created for you.
Don't try the prototype with live data though because it will convert
your database into an unsupported format.

The prototype only allows for a single parent for each location.
Obviously, I will allow multiple parents in the final version.

It will be up to you how to define the hierarchy.  A radius is not
really applicable, but the idea is to store a magnification factor
alongside the longitude/latitude so that the geography view can display
the relevant region.


Nick.


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Re: How to handle places changing names

Craig Treleaven
At 5:49 PM +0100 10/8/13, Nick Hall wrote:

>On 08/10/13 17:28, Craig Treleaven wrote:
>>>Last year I wrote a prototype to investigate a hierarchical data structure:
>>>
>>>http://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=GEPS_006:_Prototype
>>>
>>>The prototype keeps the existing Place object to hold genealogical data,
>>>but creates a new Location object to hold physical location data.  These
>>>Locations are stored in a hierarchy.
>>>
>>>I also investigated a couple of new widgets which exploit this new data
>>>structure.
>>>
>>>All the feedback I received was positive, but not many people seemed
>>>interested at the time.  Perhaps I should raise it on the development
>>>list again for inclusion in v4.1?
>>
>>Nick, could you outline how the hierarchy will work.  In my case,
>>many of my ancestors came to an area of Southern Ontario, Canada,
>>near the border between Bruce and Huron counties.  Can you specify
>>a radius (40km, ~25 miles) or does the hierarchy only work on
>>political boundaries?
>
>Instead of a place being represented by a single record in the
>database, it would consist of a hierarchy of places.
>
>In your example, you would create a location called "Canada" and
>flag it as a country.  You would the create a location called
>"Ontario" and flag it as a "Province".  "Ontario" would have
>"Canada" as its parent.  Then you would create locations for the
>counties, with the provinces as the parents.
>
>This allows you a create a very flexible structure in which
>locations such as "Canada" are re-used for many places.
>
>Your existing data will be converted and locations created for you.
>Don't try the prototype with live data though because it will
>convert your database into an unsupported format.
>
>The prototype only allows for a single parent for each location.
>Obviously, I will allow multiple parents in the final version.
>
>It will be up to you how to define the hierarchy.  A radius is not
>really applicable, but the idea is to store a magnification factor
>alongside the longitude/latitude so that the geography view can
>display the relevant region.

So, if some of my ancestors homesteaded in Huron County and then
moved (15 km) to Bruce County before finally being buried back in
Huron County, for example, I still would not have an easy way to look
at all the family events in that region?  They would still be divided
between events in one county or the other?

Craig

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Re: How to handle places changing names

ACProctor
The query that your give the software (e.g. find events within a 10km radius
of so-and-so) is a different thing to what is stored in the database (e.g. a
place hierarchy) Craig. The software would normally use the information in
the hierarchy to service your query, including any coordinates, place
extents, and neighbouring place entities.

    Tony Proctor

----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Treleaven" <[hidden email]>
To: "Nick Hall" <[hidden email]>;
<[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 5:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] How to handle places changing names


> At 5:49 PM +0100 10/8/13, Nick Hall wrote:
>>On 08/10/13 17:28, Craig Treleaven wrote:
>>>>Last year I wrote a prototype to investigate a hierarchical data
>>>>structure:
>>>>
>>>>http://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=GEPS_006:_Prototype
>>>>
>>>>The prototype keeps the existing Place object to hold genealogical data,
>>>>but creates a new Location object to hold physical location data.  These
>>>>Locations are stored in a hierarchy.
>>>>
>>>>I also investigated a couple of new widgets which exploit this new data
>>>>structure.
>>>>
>>>>All the feedback I received was positive, but not many people seemed
>>>>interested at the time.  Perhaps I should raise it on the development
>>>>list again for inclusion in v4.1?
>>>
>>>Nick, could you outline how the hierarchy will work.  In my case,
>>>many of my ancestors came to an area of Southern Ontario, Canada,
>>>near the border between Bruce and Huron counties.  Can you specify
>>>a radius (40km, ~25 miles) or does the hierarchy only work on
>>>political boundaries?
>>
>>Instead of a place being represented by a single record in the
>>database, it would consist of a hierarchy of places.
>>
>>In your example, you would create a location called "Canada" and
>>flag it as a country.  You would the create a location called
>>"Ontario" and flag it as a "Province".  "Ontario" would have
>>"Canada" as its parent.  Then you would create locations for the
>>counties, with the provinces as the parents.
>>
>>This allows you a create a very flexible structure in which
>>locations such as "Canada" are re-used for many places.
>>
>>Your existing data will be converted and locations created for you.
>>Don't try the prototype with live data though because it will
>>convert your database into an unsupported format.
>>
>>The prototype only allows for a single parent for each location.
>>Obviously, I will allow multiple parents in the final version.
>>
>>It will be up to you how to define the hierarchy.  A radius is not
>>really applicable, but the idea is to store a magnification factor
>>alongside the longitude/latitude so that the geography view can
>>display the relevant region.
>
> So, if some of my ancestors homesteaded in Huron County and then
> moved (15 km) to Bruce County before finally being buried back in
> Huron County, for example, I still would not have an easy way to look
> at all the family events in that region?  They would still be divided
> between events in one county or the other?
>
> Craig
>
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Re: How to handle places changing names

Hivernat Emmanuel
In reply to this post by Craig J. Anderson
Hello,

Perhaps a stupid question, Weren't alternate manes created for this?

Manu


Le 08/10/2013 02:18, Craig J. Anderson a écrit :
I have three children.  All born in the same hospital.  But the name changed before our third child was born.  so the place is the same, just the name is now different.  And I am sure that its name may change before they are old. 

How would I best deal with this?  Make two places?  One place doesn't seem to work well within the reports.  Or is there a better way?

thanks.

  Craig A.


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Re: How to handle places changing names

Nick Hall-6
You can add alternate locations to a place, but there is no way of specifying which one applies to a particular event.  Only the place title will be displayed in most reports.

Nick.


On 08/10/13 18:40, Hivernat Emmanuel wrote:
Hello,

Perhaps a stupid question, Weren't alternate manes created for this?

Manu


Le 08/10/2013 02:18, Craig J. Anderson a écrit :
I have three children.  All born in the same hospital.  But the name changed before our third child was born.  so the place is the same, just the name is now different.  And I am sure that its name may change before they are old. 

How would I best deal with this?  Make two places?  One place doesn't seem to work well within the reports.  Or is there a better way?


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Re: How to handle places changing names

Brad Rogers
In reply to this post by Hivernat Emmanuel
On Tue, 08 Oct 2013 19:40:47 +0200
Hivernat Emmanuel <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Hivernat,

>Perhaps a stupid question, Weren't alternate manes created for this?

Alternate names exist only for people.  For places, there are alternate
locations.  Those are good for, as an example, a school that moves
location but keeps the same name.  They /could/ be used for alternate
names, but it's far from ideal.

--
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
White people going to school, where they teach you to be thick
White Riot - The Clash

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Re: How to handle places changing names

Thomas Wildeboer
In reply to this post by Nick Hall-6

Am 08.10.2013 18:49, schrieb Nick Hall:

> Instead of a place being represented by a single record in the
> database, it would consist of a hierarchy of places. In your example,
> you would create a location called "Canada" and flag it as a country.
> You would the create a location called "Ontario" and flag it as a
> "Province". "Ontario" would have "Canada" as its parent. Then you
> would create locations for the counties, with the provinces as the
> parents. This allows you a create a very flexible structure in which
> locations such as "Canada" are re-used for many places. Your existing
> data will be converted and locations created for you. Don't try the
> prototype with live data though because it will convert your database
> into an unsupported format. The prototype only allows for a single
> parent for each location. Obviously, I will allow multiple parents in
> the final version. It will be up to you how to define the hierarchy. A
> radius is not really applicable, but the idea is to store a
> magnification factor alongside the longitude/latitude so that the
> geography view can display the relevant region. Nick.

Will it be possible then to add the locations by date? For example a
town belongs till 1920 to district A, from 1920 to 1945 to district B
and after 1945 to district C.
And it also should be possible to add different names by date to a
location. For example location is named Chemnitz until 1953-05-09, since
1953-05-10 named Karl-Marx-Stadt, since 1990-01-01 Chemnitz. Maybe it is
better to create for each name an own location and add them with
datefields to the other locations. In this way it is possible to use the
locations in the events like they are written in the sources.

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Re: How to handle places changing names

Nick Hall-6
On 08/10/13 20:32, Thomas Wildeboer wrote:
> Will it be possible then to add the locations by date? For example a
> town belongs till 1920 to district A, from 1920 to 1945 to district B
> and after 1945 to district C.

Yes, this is what we are aiming towards.


> And it also should be possible to add different names by date to a
> location. For example location is named Chemnitz until 1953-05-09, since
> 1953-05-10 named Karl-Marx-Stadt, since 1990-01-01 Chemnitz.

It looks like this is the same concept at a different level in the
hierarchy.


>   Maybe it is
> better to create for each name an own location and add them with
> datefields to the other locations.

In a hierarchical model, a place name would be built up by visiting each
level in the tree from street level right up to country level.   Is this
what you mean?


> In this way it is possible to use the
> locations in the events like they are written in the sources.

Yes, that is certainly the idea.


Nick.


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Re: How to handle places changing names

Jesse Meyer
In reply to this post by paul womack
On 10/8/2013 2:42 AM, paul womack wrote:
> I often notice people claiming claiming Gramps lets you store
> information however you choose. This is true, but only for *storing*
> data, In practice, if you wish your data to "play nice" with the built
> in Gramps navigation, searching, and reporting tools, your choices
> must be reasonably constrained by context. To be clear, I think this
> is perfectly reasonable, and is one of the reasons I keep asking for a
> guide to "normal practise".

I have this idea, which is either an improvement or unusable in practice
- I'm not sure which ;) - about improved placename handling.

Each place can contain other places.  So nations can contain states
which can contain cities, etc.

Each place can have a successor and predecessor place.  So British
Colonies -> USA.

Each place can define where and when it was a subset of another place
(useful for border changes, etc).

It's probably too ...  obsessive for most people's usage.  But I'd like it.

...

Now that I think about it, you may get most of the advantages by being
able to define a modern place and identify other places as an --
admittedly -- imperfect alias.  So "Ottawa, Lower Canada, British North
America" could be an alias of Ottawa, Ontario, Canada.

Thoughts?

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