How would you enter Lloydminster?

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How would you enter Lloydminster?

victorengel
Lloydminster is unique in that it straddles the border between Alberta and Saskatchewan and the whole is incorporated into each province. So the first impulse would be to enclose it in both Saskatchewan and Alberta. However, suppose you wanted to enter a house in Lloydminster that was on the Alberta side. You enter the address, and enter Lloydminster in its enclosed by field. Now it shows up as being in both Alberta and Saskatchewan.

I don't currently have any records in Lloydminster, but I think it's just a matter of time before I add some. I've never lived there myself, so I don't know how this situation is treated locally. Perhaps the provincial boundaries should really have an overlap like in a Venn diagram.

Victor 

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Re: How would you enter Lloydminster?

victorengel
A related question and actually the one that inspired the question I'm replying to. Camrose is in the Lloydminster census division, probably more correctly called Census Civision No. 10. Unlike the city, the census division includes only Alberta. So how would one include Lloydminster in the census division? I have records for Camrose, which is in this census division, but not Lloydminster. So I don't need an answer, but I'm curious how this would be worked. 

Victor

On Sun, Jul 22, 2018 at 8:40 AM, Victor Engel <[hidden email]> wrote:
Lloydminster is unique in that it straddles the border between Alberta and Saskatchewan and the whole is incorporated into each province. So the first impulse would be to enclose it in both Saskatchewan and Alberta. However, suppose you wanted to enter a house in Lloydminster that was on the Alberta side. You enter the address, and enter Lloydminster in its enclosed by field. Now it shows up as being in both Alberta and Saskatchewan.

I don't currently have any records in Lloydminster, but I think it's just a matter of time before I add some. I've never lived there myself, so I don't know how this situation is treated locally. Perhaps the provincial boundaries should really have an overlap like in a Venn diagram.

Victor 


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Re: How would you enter Lloydminster?

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by victorengel

According to Wikipedia, from 1905 to 1930, there were two towns, and most people used to live in Saskatchewan.  Thus, depending on the dates when your events happened, I'd probably put it solely in Saskatchewan.

On 07/22/2018 08:40 AM, Victor Engel wrote:
Lloydminster is unique in that it straddles the border between Alberta and Saskatchewan and the whole is incorporated into each province. So the first impulse would be to enclose it in both Saskatchewan and Alberta. However, suppose you wanted to enter a house in Lloydminster that was on the Alberta side. You enter the address, and enter Lloydminster in its enclosed by field. Now it shows up as being in both Alberta and Saskatchewan.

I don't currently have any records in Lloydminster, but I think it's just a matter of time before I add some. I've never lived there myself, so I don't know how this situation is treated locally. Perhaps the provincial boundaries should really have an overlap like in a Venn diagram.

--
Angular momentum makes the world go 'round.

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Re: How would you enter Lloydminster?

victorengel
"Lloydminster is a Canadian city which has the unusual geographic distinction of straddling the provincial border between Alberta and Saskatchewan.[10] Unlike most such cases (such as Texarkana and Kansas City), Lloydminster is not a pair of twin cities on opposite sides of a border which merely share the same name, but is incorporated by both provinces as a single city with a single municipal administration." - some emphasis mine. From wikipedia.

Look at the map of the city on google. More of the city is in Alberta than Saskatchewan. Additionally, Hwy 17 goes right down the border. Actually, if you look at Google street view, the tall border markers are on the Alberta side, so I guess the road is on the Saskatchewan side.

Victor

On Sun, Jul 22, 2018 at 9:29 AM, Ron Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

According to Wikipedia, from 1905 to 1930, there were two towns, and most people used to live in Saskatchewan.  Thus, depending on the dates when your events happened, I'd probably put it solely in Saskatchewan.

On 07/22/2018 08:40 AM, Victor Engel wrote:
Lloydminster is unique in that it straddles the border between Alberta and Saskatchewan and the whole is incorporated into each province. So the first impulse would be to enclose it in both Saskatchewan and Alberta. However, suppose you wanted to enter a house in Lloydminster that was on the Alberta side. You enter the address, and enter Lloydminster in its enclosed by field. Now it shows up as being in both Alberta and Saskatchewan.

I don't currently have any records in Lloydminster, but I think it's just a matter of time before I add some. I've never lived there myself, so I don't know how this situation is treated locally. Perhaps the provincial boundaries should really have an overlap like in a Venn diagram.

--
Angular momentum makes the world go 'round.

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Re: How would you enter Lloydminster?

victorengel
I take it back. I do have a record for Lloydminster. I'm working eastward in Canada from the west coast and am finishing up Alberta. The one record I have is a Saskatchewan one, dated 1978.

Victor

On Sun, Jul 22, 2018 at 9:57 AM, Victor Engel <[hidden email]> wrote:
"Lloydminster is a Canadian city which has the unusual geographic distinction of straddling the provincial border between Alberta and Saskatchewan.[10] Unlike most such cases (such as Texarkana and Kansas City), Lloydminster is not a pair of twin cities on opposite sides of a border which merely share the same name, but is incorporated by both provinces as a single city with a single municipal administration." - some emphasis mine. From wikipedia.

Look at the map of the city on google. More of the city is in Alberta than Saskatchewan. Additionally, Hwy 17 goes right down the border. Actually, if you look at Google street view, the tall border markers are on the Alberta side, so I guess the road is on the Saskatchewan side.

Victor

On Sun, Jul 22, 2018 at 9:29 AM, Ron Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

According to Wikipedia, from 1905 to 1930, there were two towns, and most people used to live in Saskatchewan.  Thus, depending on the dates when your events happened, I'd probably put it solely in Saskatchewan.

On 07/22/2018 08:40 AM, Victor Engel wrote:
Lloydminster is unique in that it straddles the border between Alberta and Saskatchewan and the whole is incorporated into each province. So the first impulse would be to enclose it in both Saskatchewan and Alberta. However, suppose you wanted to enter a house in Lloydminster that was on the Alberta side. You enter the address, and enter Lloydminster in its enclosed by field. Now it shows up as being in both Alberta and Saskatchewan.

I don't currently have any records in Lloydminster, but I think it's just a matter of time before I add some. I've never lived there myself, so I don't know how this situation is treated locally. Perhaps the provincial boundaries should really have an overlap like in a Venn diagram.

--
Angular momentum makes the world go 'round.

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Re: How would you enter Lloydminster?

victorengel
I think the way I am going to handle it is to create:

1. Lloydminster (west)
2. Lloydminster (east)
3. Lloydminster

1. and 2. will be enclosed by their respective counties, census divisions, provinces, etc., and also 3.
3. will be enclosed by both Saskatchewan and Alberta, but not the other items.

I'mm make #3 a city, and #1 and #2 their own type. Apparently, the top item listed in the Enclosed By section determines the combined place name, so I can control what is displayed by ordering those appropriately. The (west) and (east) may not show up in the name, i.e., I may set all three to be called Lloydminster. This should make the display cleaner.

Victor


On Sun, Jul 22, 2018 at 10:01 AM, Victor Engel <[hidden email]> wrote:
I take it back. I do have a record for Lloydminster. I'm working eastward in Canada from the west coast and am finishing up Alberta. The one record I have is a Saskatchewan one, dated 1978.

Victor

On Sun, Jul 22, 2018 at 9:57 AM, Victor Engel <[hidden email]> wrote:
"Lloydminster is a Canadian city which has the unusual geographic distinction of straddling the provincial border between Alberta and Saskatchewan.[10] Unlike most such cases (such as Texarkana and Kansas City), Lloydminster is not a pair of twin cities on opposite sides of a border which merely share the same name, but is incorporated by both provinces as a single city with a single municipal administration." - some emphasis mine. From wikipedia.

Look at the map of the city on google. More of the city is in Alberta than Saskatchewan. Additionally, Hwy 17 goes right down the border. Actually, if you look at Google street view, the tall border markers are on the Alberta side, so I guess the road is on the Saskatchewan side.

Victor

On Sun, Jul 22, 2018 at 9:29 AM, Ron Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

According to Wikipedia, from 1905 to 1930, there were two towns, and most people used to live in Saskatchewan.  Thus, depending on the dates when your events happened, I'd probably put it solely in Saskatchewan.

On 07/22/2018 08:40 AM, Victor Engel wrote:
Lloydminster is unique in that it straddles the border between Alberta and Saskatchewan and the whole is incorporated into each province. So the first impulse would be to enclose it in both Saskatchewan and Alberta. However, suppose you wanted to enter a house in Lloydminster that was on the Alberta side. You enter the address, and enter Lloydminster in its enclosed by field. Now it shows up as being in both Alberta and Saskatchewan.

I don't currently have any records in Lloydminster, but I think it's just a matter of time before I add some. I've never lived there myself, so I don't know how this situation is treated locally. Perhaps the provincial boundaries should really have an overlap like in a Venn diagram.

--
Angular momentum makes the world go 'round.

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Re: How would you enter Lloydminster?

GRAMPS - User mailing list
In reply to this post by victorengel
I'm also curious about how people have opted to address this.

I have several similar situations of localities where the enclosing areas were subdivided over time and the locality now bridge those enclosing Places. And the reverse too.  

Example: My hometown was mostly in Mercer but had spread into Beaver county over a number of decades in the 1800s. In 1849, Pennsylvania re-allocated chunks of both counties to form Lawrence county. So sources for people born around 1839 in southern New Castle might say they were born in New Castle, in Beaver county or in Lawrence county. If it just said 'New Castle, Pa' then I couldn't be certain if they had been in Mercer or Beaver. (Important when searching court dockets, census data and regional newspaper archives.)

In such a case, I put the birthplace as the enclosing state (Pennsylvania) and add '1830s New Castle in contemporary Mercer or Beaver county, modern Lawrence county.' to the description.

But my worst problem is if sources say 'Slippery Rock' ... which could be anywhere along a major creek that passes through 4 adjacent counties, a neighborhood, a town, a State University, or any if 5 separate and arbitrarily located townships in those 4 counties. (Yes, locals love our 'Slimey Pebble' and argue interminably which is the REAL one. It's as bad as if the name was 'Washington' or 'Riverside')

Worse, Mercer county had a Slippery Rock township in the area ceded to Lawrence county... So Mercer created a new township to the north re-using the name within the reduced borders and the new Lawrence county created a new township with the name on the East side of the new county than the western area Mercer had previously designated. (To be fair, at least this new township enclosed a segment of the eponymous creek unlike either of the Mercer townships.)

So again, I currently use "Pennsylvania" and add a description 'Slippery Rock (no disambiguation in source).

Neither of these 'US state' level are entirely satisfactory since the map pins go to the center of Pennsylvania (prosaically named Centre county, Pa), some 180 miles away.

Anxiously,
Brian
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 7/22/18, Ron Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] How would you enter Lloydminster?
 To: [hidden email]
 Date: Sunday, July 22, 2018, 9:29 AM
 
According to Wikipedia, from 1905 to 1930, there were two towns, and most people used to live in Saskatchewan. 

Thus, depending on the dates when your events happened, I'd probably put it solely in Saskatchewan.
 
       
 
       On 07/22/2018 08:40 AM, Victor Engel wrote:
     
Lloydminster is unique in that it straddles the border between Alberta and Saskatchewan and the whole is incorporated into each province. So the first impulse would be to enclose it in both Saskatchewan and Alberta.

 However, suppose you wanted to enter a house in Lloydminster that was on the Alberta side. You enter the address, and enter Lloydminster in its enclosed by field. Now it shows up as being in both Alberta and Saskatchewan.
 
I don't currently have any records in Lloydminster, but I think it's just a matter of time before I add some. I've never lived there myself, so I don't know how this situation is treated locally. Perhaps the provincial boundaries should really have an overlap like in a Venn diagram.
       

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Re: How would you enter Lloydminster?

Reinhard John
In reply to this post by victorengel
Hello Victor,

I would choose the type "location" for Lloydminster (west) and Lloydminster (east). So you don't have to create a new place type and can stick to the standard.
For a cleaner display I would enter "Lloydminster" as place name for both locations and add "Lloydminster (west)" and "Lloydminster (west)" as alternative place names.

Kind regards
Reinhard 

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Re: How would you enter Lloydminster?

Nick Hall
In reply to this post by victorengel
On 22/07/18 16:42, Victor Engel wrote:

> I think the way I am going to handle it is to create:
>
> 1. Lloydminster (west)
> 2. Lloydminster (east)
> 3. Lloydminster
>
> 1. and 2. will be enclosed by their respective counties, census
> divisions, provinces, etc., and also 3.
> 3. will be enclosed by both Saskatchewan and Alberta, but not the
> other items.
>
> I'mm make #3 a city, and #1 and #2 their own type. Apparently, the top
> item listed in the Enclosed By section determines the combined place
> name, so I can control what is displayed by ordering those
> appropriately. The (west) and (east) may not show up in the name,
> i.e., I may set all three to be called Lloydminster. This should make
> the display cleaner.
>
Yes.  That would work.

The alternatives would be to create a province called "Saskatchewan /
Alberta", or not enclose Lloydminster in a province at all.

Nick.



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