Implementation Proposal for Historical Events

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Implementation Proposal for Historical Events

Reinhard John
Hello,

we had quite a lot messages concerning places and historical events recently.

I would like to put up an implementation proposal for discussion, before creating an enhancement proposal in the Mantis Bug Tracker.

Gramps provides a new event type "Historical Event"
Historical events are added/edited using the existing "New Event" dialog.
Example:
Event type: Historical event
Date: 1906-04-18
Place: San Francisco, California, United States of America
Description: Earthquake

Events without place are considered as "global events"
Examples:
Event type: Historical event
Date: 1969-07-20
Place:
Description: First manned moon landing

Event type: Historical event
Date: from 1939-09-01 to 1945-09-02
Place:
Description: World War II

Reports would show historical events using the following selection criteria:
Show historial events within a radius of x kilometres/miles from place of birth/death/marriage
Tickbox: Show historial events within the same county (Possibly drop-down field for place level)
Tickbox: Show historial events within the same  state (Possibly drop-down field for place level)
Tickbox: Show historial events within the same  country (Possibly drop-down field for place level)
Tickbox: Show global events

Open issues:
Event type "Historiacl event" is not defined within GEDCOM
How to export these events?
Definition, in which reports historical events are useful. (e.g. timeline report)
How to deal with historical events that began before an individual's birth, but end during the individual's lifetime?

I am looking forward to reading your input!
Kind regards,
Reinhard


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Re: Implementation Proposal for Historical Events

Matthias Kemmer
Hello,
I think considering events without place are as "global events" is a bad idea, beause you often do not have a exact place, so you leave it empty or you'd have to add some place to each of those events like in "County A", "Somewhere in region yx", etc. which is more work and hasn't a big advantage.

You can already do those things with the current places in Gramps e.g. creating a place "global" or "worldwide" and a custom event type "Historical event". Also for the moon landing, you could just add a place with the name "Moon".

Your examples:
Event type: Historical event (=custom exent type)
Date: 1906-04-18
Place: San Francisco, California, United States of America
Description: Earthquake

Event type: Historical event (=custom exent type)
Date: 1969-07-20
Place: Moon
Description: First manned moon landing

For World War II it think you could do two things:
[1]
Event type: Historical event (=custom exent type)
Date: from 1939-09-01 to 1945-09-02
Place: worldwide (just a place for global events)
Description: World War II
[2]
Event type: Historical event (=custom exent type)
Date: from 1939-09-01 to 1945-09-02
Place: Countries in WW2 (=all countries and places which are relevant for WW2 are enclosed by this place, it could also have more hirachical subdivision like "Allies" and "Axis Powers", etc.)
Description: World War II

What is needed in Gramps is a way to select between those multiple hierarchies for reports and maybe also for being displayed in Gramps. As far as I know there is already planned something (or it's still being planned) for the next release, together with other place enhancements.

Kind regards,
Matt

Am 18.02.2019 um 15:37 schrieb Reinhard John:

> Hello,
>
> we had quite a lot messages concerning places and historical events recently.
>
> I would like to put up an implementation proposal for discussion, before creating an enhancement proposal in the Mantis Bug Tracker.
>
> Gramps provides a new event type "Historical Event"
> Historical events are added/edited using the existing "New Event" dialog.
> Example:
> Event type: Historical event
> Date: 1906-04-18
> Place: San Francisco, California, United States of America
> Description: Earthquake
>
> Events without place are considered as "global events"
> Examples:
> Event type: Historical event
> Date: 1969-07-20
> Place:
> Description: First manned moon landing
>
> Event type: Historical event
> Date: from 1939-09-01 to 1945-09-02
> Place:
> Description: World War II
>
> Reports would show historical events using the following selection criteria:
> Show historial events within a radius of x kilometres/miles from place of birth/death/marriage
> Tickbox: Show historial events within the same county (Possibly drop-down field for place level)
> Tickbox: Show historial events within the same  state (Possibly drop-down field for place level)
> Tickbox: Show historial events within the same  country (Possibly drop-down field for place level)
> Tickbox: Show global events
>
> Open issues:
> Event type "Historiacl event" is not defined within GEDCOM
> How to export these events?
> Definition, in which reports historical events are useful. (e.g. timeline report)
> How to deal with historical events that began before an individual's birth, but end during the individual's lifetime?
>
> I am looking forward to reading your input!
> Kind regards,
> Reinhard
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gramps-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
> https://gramps-project.org


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Re: Implementation Proposal for Historical Events

Nick Hall
In reply to this post by Reinhard John
Reinhard,

Using the existing event editor is a good idea.

A similar approach would work for demographic data.

Nick.


On 18/02/2019 14:37, Reinhard John wrote:

> I would like to put up an implementation proposal for discussion, before creating an enhancement proposal in the Mantis Bug Tracker.
>
> Gramps provides a new event type "Historical Event"
> Historical events are added/edited using the existing "New Event" dialog.
> Example:
> Event type: Historical event
> Date: 1906-04-18
> Place: San Francisco, California, United States of America
> Description: Earthquake
>
> Events without place are considered as "global events"
> Examples:
> Event type: Historical event
> Date: 1969-07-20
> Place:
> Description: First manned moon landing
>
> Event type: Historical event
> Date: from 1939-09-01 to 1945-09-02
> Place:
> Description: World War II
>
> Reports would show historical events using the following selection criteria:
> Show historial events within a radius of x kilometres/miles from place of birth/death/marriage
> Tickbox: Show historial events within the same county (Possibly drop-down field for place level)
> Tickbox: Show historial events within the same  state (Possibly drop-down field for place level)
> Tickbox: Show historial events within the same  country (Possibly drop-down field for place level)
> Tickbox: Show global events
>
> Open issues:
> Event type "Historiacl event" is not defined within GEDCOM
> How to export these events?
> Definition, in which reports historical events are useful. (e.g. timeline report)
> How to deal with historical events that began before an individual's birth, but end during the individual's lifetime?




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Re: Implementation Proposal for Historical Events

Reinhard John
In reply to this post by Reinhard John
Hello Matt,

thank you for your comments.

I don't agree with you on the issue leaving the place field empty.
If you want to add a historical event you probably know where it happened. You are right, it's not always an "exact" point like a building, village or a city... think of e.g. the American Civil War which took place in the place "United States of America".
In my proposal the place where an event took place can have every place level Gramps provides or even custom defined place levels. But I would restrict the place levels considered in reports to street, locality, city, county, state and country so that programming of reports won't become too complicated.

The idea of "global events" is just not to generate several places like "moon", "World War II countries",... 
I want to select all events which I consider to be "of global interest" with one click. Your proposal of a place "global" or "worldwide" would do the job. But it has to be implemented in the reports and all users have to know which place they have to enter in order to display the global events.

You are right: You could add a custom defined event type "historical event". But if Gramps provides reports which display historical events, every user has to use the same event type that the programmer has defined for the report. Therefore I recommend a standard event type provided by Gramps.

Reinhard 
Am 18.02.19, 16:33, Matt hias <[hidden email]> schrieb:
Hello,
I think considering events without place are as "global events" is a bad idea, beause you often do not have a exact place, so you leave it empty or you'd have to add some place to each of those events like in "County A", "Somewhere in region yx", etc. which is more work and hasn't a big advantage.

You can already do those things with the current places in Gramps e.g. creating a place "global" or "worldwide" and a custom event type "Historical event". Also for the moon landing, you could just add a place with the name "Moon".

Your examples:
Event type: Historical event (=custom exent type)
Date: 1906-04-18
Place: San Francisco, California, United States of America
Description: Earthquake

Event type: Historical event (=custom exent type)
Date: 1969-07-20
Place: Moon
Description: First manned moon landing

For World War II it think you could do two things:
[1]
Event type: Historical event (=custom exent type)
Date: from 1939-09-01 to 1945-09-02
Place: worldwide (just a place for global events)
Description: World War II
[2]
Event type: Historical event (=custom exent type)
Date: from 1939-09-01 to 1945-09-02
Place: Countries in WW2 (=all countries and places which are relevant for WW2 are enclosed by this place, it could also have more hirachical subdivision like "Allies" and "Axis Powers", etc.)
Description: World War II

What is needed in Gramps is a way to select between those multiple hierarchies for reports and maybe also for being displayed in Gramps. As far as I know there is already planned something (or it's still being planned) for the next release, together with other place enhancements.

Kind regards,
Matt

Am 18.02.2019 um 15:37 schrieb Reinhard John:
> Hello,
>
> we had quite a lot messages concerning places and historical events recently.
>
> I would like to put up an implementation proposal for discussion, before creating an enhancement proposal in the Mantis Bug Tracker.
>
> Gramps provides a new event type "Historical Event"
> Historical events are added/edited using the existing "New Event" dialog.
> Example:
> Event type: Historical event
> Date: 1906-04-18
> Place: San Francisco, California, United States of America
> Description: Earthquake
>
> Events without place are considered as "global events"
> Examples:
> Event type: Historical event
> Date: 1969-07-20
> Place:
> Description: First manned moon landing
>
> Event type: Historical event
> Date: from 1939-09-01 to 1945-09-02
> Place:
> Description: World War II
>
> Reports would show historical events using the following selection criteria:
> Show historial events within a radius of x kilometres/miles from place of birth/death/marriage
> Tickbox: Show historial events within the same county (Possibly drop-down field for place level)
> Tickbox: Show historial events within the same state (Possibly drop-down field for place level)
> Tickbox: Show historial events within the same country (Possibly drop-down field for place level)
> Tickbox: Show global events
>
> Open issues:
> Event type "Historiacl event" is not defined within GEDCOM
> How to export these events?
> Definition, in which reports historical events are useful. (e.g. timeline report)
> How to deal with historical events that began before an individual's birth, but end during the individual's lifetime?
>
> I am looking forward to reading your input!
> Kind regards,
> Reinhard
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gramps-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
> https://gramps-project.org


_______________________________________________
Gramps-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
https://gramps-project.org


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Re: Implementation Proposal for Historical Events

Ron Johnson

While I like your idea in concept (were my ancestors affected by the Thirty Years War), there are some practical problems: how do you specify exactly when and where (since not every region was affected at every point in time)?

On 2/18/19 2:10 PM, Reinhard John wrote:
Hello Matt,

thank you for your comments.

I don't agree with you on the issue leaving the place field empty.
If you want to add a historical event you probably know where it happened. You are right, it's not always an "exact" point like a building, village or a city... think of e.g. the American Civil War which took place in the place "United States of America".
In my proposal the place where an event took place can have every place level Gramps provides or even custom defined place levels. But I would restrict the place levels considered in reports to street, locality, city, county, state and country so that programming of reports won't become too complicated.

The idea of "global events" is just not to generate several places like "moon", "World War II countries",... 
I want to select all events which I consider to be "of global interest" with one click. Your proposal of a place "global" or "worldwide" would do the job. But it has to be implemented in the reports and all users have to know which place they have to enter in order to display the global events.

You are right: You could add a custom defined event type "historical event". But if Gramps provides reports which display historical events, every user has to use the same event type that the programmer has defined for the report. Therefore I recommend a standard event type provided by Gramps.

Reinhard 
Am 18.02.19, 16:33, Matt hias [hidden email] schrieb:
Hello,
I think considering events without place are as "global events" is a bad idea, beause you often do not have a exact place, so you leave it empty or you'd have to add some place to each of those events like in "County A", "Somewhere in region yx", etc. which is more work and hasn't a big advantage.

You can already do those things with the current places in Gramps e.g. creating a place "global" or "worldwide" and a custom event type "Historical event". Also for the moon landing, you could just add a place with the name "Moon".

Your examples:
Event type: Historical event (=custom exent type)
Date: 1906-04-18
Place: San Francisco, California, United States of America
Description: Earthquake

Event type: Historical event (=custom exent type)
Date: 1969-07-20
Place: Moon
Description: First manned moon landing

For World War II it think you could do two things:
[1]
Event type: Historical event (=custom exent type)
Date: from 1939-09-01 to 1945-09-02
Place: worldwide (just a place for global events)
Description: World War II
[2]
Event type: Historical event (=custom exent type)
Date: from 1939-09-01 to 1945-09-02
Place: Countries in WW2 (=all countries and places which are relevant for WW2 are enclosed by this place, it could also have more hirachical subdivision like "Allies" and "Axis Powers", etc.)
Description: World War II

What is needed in Gramps is a way to select between those multiple hierarchies for reports and maybe also for being displayed in Gramps. As far as I know there is already planned something (or it's still being planned) for the next release, together with other place enhancements.

Kind regards,
Matt

Am 18.02.2019 um 15:37 schrieb Reinhard John:
> Hello,
>
> we had quite a lot messages concerning places and historical events recently.
>
> I would like to put up an implementation proposal for discussion, before creating an enhancement proposal in the Mantis Bug Tracker.
>
> Gramps provides a new event type "Historical Event"
> Historical events are added/edited using the existing "New Event" dialog.
> Example:
> Event type: Historical event
> Date: 1906-04-18
> Place: San Francisco, California, United States of America
> Description: Earthquake
>
> Events without place are considered as "global events"
> Examples:
> Event type: Historical event
> Date: 1969-07-20
> Place:
> Description: First manned moon landing
>
> Event type: Historical event
> Date: from 1939-09-01 to 1945-09-02
> Place:
> Description: World War II
>
> Reports would show historical events using the following selection criteria:
> Show historial events within a radius of x kilometres/miles from place of birth/death/marriage
> Tickbox: Show historial events within the same county (Possibly drop-down field for place level)
> Tickbox: Show historial events within the same state (Possibly drop-down field for place level)
> Tickbox: Show historial events within the same country (Possibly drop-down field for place level)
> Tickbox: Show global events
>
> Open issues:
> Event type "Historiacl event" is not defined within GEDCOM
> How to export these events?
> Definition, in which reports historical events are useful. (e.g. timeline report)
> How to deal with historical events that began before an individual's birth, but end during the individual's lifetime?
>
> I am looking forward to reading your input!
> Kind regards,
> Reinhard

--
Angular momentum makes the world go 'round.


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Re: Implementation Proposal for Historical Events

Cheryl Viering
In reply to this post by Reinhard John
I’ve been using a custom event, “Timeline”, for this, but I think “Historical Event” is a better name. I started using it for epidemics when I noticed clusters of deaths in a family. Then I added other life altering events, like the San Francisco earthquake. I give the person a role of “Primary” if they were definitely affected, and “Unknown” if they could have been affected.

On Feb 19, 2019, at 7:19 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 15:37:04 +0100
From: "Reinhard John" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Gramps-users] Implementation Proposal for Historical Events
Message-ID:
<trinity-702dd222-7bb7-42f1-b951-1fb51879b472-1550500624659@3c-app-gmx-bs67>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Hello,

we had quite a lot messages concerning places and historical events recently.

I would like to put up an implementation proposal for discussion, before creating an enhancement proposal in the Mantis Bug Tracker.

Gramps provides a new event type "Historical Event"
Historical events are added/edited using the existing "New Event" dialog.
Example:
Event type: Historical event
Date: 1906-04-18
Place: San Francisco, California, United States of America
Description: Earthquake

Events without place are considered as "global events"
Examples:
Event type: Historical event
Date: 1969-07-20
Place: 
Description: First manned moon landing

Event type: Historical event
Date: from 1939-09-01 to 1945-09-02
Place: 
Description: World War II

Reports would show historical events using the following selection criteria:
Show historial events within a radius of x kilometres/miles from place of birth/death/marriage
Tickbox: Show historial events within the same county (Possibly drop-down field for place level)
Tickbox: Show historial events within the same  state (Possibly drop-down field for place level)
Tickbox: Show historial events within the same  country (Possibly drop-down field for place level)
Tickbox: Show global events

Open issues:
Event type "Historiacl event" is not defined within GEDCOM
How to export these events?
Definition, in which reports historical events are useful. (e.g. timeline report)
How to deal with historical events that began before an individual's birth, but end during the individual's lifetime?



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Re: Implementation Proposal for Historical Ev

GRAMPS - User mailing list
Seems like adding a primordial personification of the Earth might by a good place to collect these events. Or maybe such a Family surname with Century 'offspring'.

Then attach the war, famine, pestilence & disasters Events to the appropriate Century.

The advantage to this is that you could run a timeline report on Individuals of that family to see an overlay of environmental events by century.  And you wouldn't have to attach the same events to your entire database.

Possible surnames: Gaea, Gaia, Terra, Tellus

(I already use a 'Terra' Place enclosing the 7 continents and 5 oceans which enclose the Countries. 
.... These higher level Place enclosures help steamline place selection from the Grouped Place list. But running a Visual Basic script/macro to excise my home country, the continents, & planet enclosure Place names from my reports does a lot to de-clutter. I leave the oceans.)

On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 8:25, Cheryl Viering
I’ve been using a custom event, “Timeline”, for this, but I think “Historical Event” is a better name. I started using it for epidemics when I noticed clusters of deaths in a family. Then I added other life altering events, like the San Francisco earthquake. I give the person a role of “Primary” if they were definitely affected, and “Unknown” if they could have been affected.

On Feb 19, 2019, at 7:19 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 15:37:04 +0100
From: "Reinhard John" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Gramps-users] Implementation Proposal for Historical Events
Message-ID:
<trinity-702dd222-7bb7-42f1-b951-1fb51879b472-1550500624659@3c-app-gmx-bs67>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Hello,

we had quite a lot messages concerning places and historical events recently.

I would like to put up an implementation proposal for discussion, before creating an enhancement proposal in the Mantis Bug Tracker.

Gramps provides a new event type "Historical Event"
Historical events are added/edited using the existing "New Event" dialog.
Example:
Event type: Historical event
Date: 1906-04-18
Place: San Francisco, California, United States of America
Description: Earthquake

Events without place are considered as "global events"
Examples:
Event type: Historical event
Date: 1969-07-20
Place: 
Description: First manned moon landing

Event type: Historical event
Date: from 1939-09-01 to 1945-09-02
Place: 
Description: World War II

Reports would show historical events using the following selection criteria:
Show historial events within a radius of x kilometres/miles from place of birth/death/marriage
Tickbox: Show historial events within the same county (Possibly drop-down field for place level)
Tickbox: Show historial events within the same  state (Possibly drop-down field for place level)
Tickbox: Show historial events within the same  country (Possibly drop-down field for place level)
Tickbox: Show global events

Open issues:
Event type "Historiacl event" is not defined within GEDCOM
How to export these events?
Definition, in which reports historical events are useful. (e.g. timeline report)
How to deal with historical events that began before an individual's birth, but end during the individual's lifetime?

_______________________________________________
Gramps-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
https://gramps-project.org


_______________________________________________
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Re: Implementation Proposal for Historical Ev

StoltHD
Half way workarounds are never a good way to solve a problem...

When doing like you suggest, whats actually happen is that you rewrite historical events, when enough people do the same, it become a really big problem, just see whats happens on gine.com, familysearch.org, ancestry.com, myheritage and any other online service where people add events and links without sources and citations...
It become a huge problem that nearly impossible to correct.



Den tir. 19. feb. 2019 kl. 16:17 skrev Emyoulation--- via Gramps-users <[hidden email]>:
Seems like adding a primordial personification of the Earth might by a good place to collect these events. Or maybe such a Family surname with Century 'offspring'.

Then attach the war, famine, pestilence & disasters Events to the appropriate Century.

The advantage to this is that you could run a timeline report on Individuals of that family to see an overlay of environmental events by century.  And you wouldn't have to attach the same events to your entire database.

Possible surnames: Gaea, Gaia, Terra, Tellus

(I already use a 'Terra' Place enclosing the 7 continents and 5 oceans which enclose the Countries. 
.... These higher level Place enclosures help steamline place selection from the Grouped Place list. But running a Visual Basic script/macro to excise my home country, the continents, & planet enclosure Place names from my reports does a lot to de-clutter. I leave the oceans.)

On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 8:25, Cheryl Viering
I’ve been using a custom event, “Timeline”, for this, but I think “Historical Event” is a better name. I started using it for epidemics when I noticed clusters of deaths in a family. Then I added other life altering events, like the San Francisco earthquake. I give the person a role of “Primary” if they were definitely affected, and “Unknown” if they could have been affected.

On Feb 19, 2019, at 7:19 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 15:37:04 +0100
From: "Reinhard John" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Gramps-users] Implementation Proposal for Historical Events
Message-ID:
<trinity-702dd222-7bb7-42f1-b951-1fb51879b472-1550500624659@3c-app-gmx-bs67>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Hello,

we had quite a lot messages concerning places and historical events recently.

I would like to put up an implementation proposal for discussion, before creating an enhancement proposal in the Mantis Bug Tracker.

Gramps provides a new event type "Historical Event"
Historical events are added/edited using the existing "New Event" dialog.
Example:
Event type: Historical event
Date: 1906-04-18
Place: San Francisco, California, United States of America
Description: Earthquake

Events without place are considered as "global events"
Examples:
Event type: Historical event
Date: 1969-07-20
Place: 
Description: First manned moon landing

Event type: Historical event
Date: from 1939-09-01 to 1945-09-02
Place: 
Description: World War II

Reports would show historical events using the following selection criteria:
Show historial events within a radius of x kilometres/miles from place of birth/death/marriage
Tickbox: Show historial events within the same county (Possibly drop-down field for place level)
Tickbox: Show historial events within the same  state (Possibly drop-down field for place level)
Tickbox: Show historial events within the same  country (Possibly drop-down field for place level)
Tickbox: Show global events

Open issues:
Event type "Historiacl event" is not defined within GEDCOM
How to export these events?
Definition, in which reports historical events are useful. (e.g. timeline report)
How to deal with historical events that began before an individual's birth, but end during the individual's lifetime?

_______________________________________________
Gramps-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
https://gramps-project.org
_______________________________________________
Gramps-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
https://gramps-project.org


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Re: Implementation Proposal for Historical Ev

ACProctor


On 21/02/2019 00:02, StoltHD wrote:
Half way workarounds are never a good way to solve a problem...

When doing like you suggest, whats actually happen is that you rewrite historical events, when enough people do the same, it become a really big problem, just see whats happens on gine.com, familysearch.org, ancestry.com, myheritage and any other online service where people add events and links without sources and citations...
It become a huge problem that nearly impossible to correct.




I'd like to suggest another way of looking at events. While it might sound too complicated, on the face of it, it might also trigger some lateral thinking that might be more useful to Gramps.

I admit that I am not really a Gramps user, but -- as some will know -- I have been researching a very different route to genealogy for some years.

I believe it's an important observation that events should be backed by cited sources, but you can stand this on its head so that events are merely a consequence of the source material rather than something that has to be constructed separately. I realised, a good while back, that virtually every source I had used had a date, or date range, associated with it, and so could be construed as defining an "event" in the history of that person, family, place, or whatever.

I have to clarify what I mean by "event". Most people would agree that it's something that happened at a particular time, and probably at a particular place. This isn't the same as just global or historic events since it also includes the small fine-grained events that constitute the micro-history of those lives. So, for instance, a birth certificate represents a birth event -- it could also be used to define a birth-registration event if there's a second date available on it (as in the UK).  Similar with a census page: although there was some debate on this thread as to whether there is such a thing as a "census event", there was a collection of those census returns on a particular day, and they described the status and location of several people on a particular day (usually taken to be the same day), and so effectively describe an event in those lives.

When it comes to global events, such as WWII, then this thread has debated the practicality of setting a specific place. I solved this by making events hierarchical. For instance, although the main WWII event spanned several years and several places, it could be broken down into separate campaigns, battles, or any war-related event for which a source exists. The child events are merely constrained by the date-range of the parent event. This scheme also handles a "voyage event", where the embarkation date/place is different to the disembarkation date/place, and yet most of us would consider it to be a single "event". You already have person hierarchies (i.e. lineage) and place hierarchies, so are event hierarchies one step too far?

I understand about fears of bloated features, but a different perspective can sometimes yield a simpler user interface. That worked perfectly for me, but then I had no compatibility issues to be concerned with. In other words, I appreciate if these suggests might be too far removed from what Gramps does now.

Tony


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Re: Implementation Proposal for Historical Ev

StoltHD
Tony, It was Emyoulation workaround I was commenting here... I have read a lot of what you have wrote and I actually agree with most everything...

Nearly all events are place related and would occur regardless of a research object (read person) would be at that place to that given time, still, lineage-linked research force us to register the events on a person... Even though a person only is a participant of a given event...
A hierarchy of Events would be a great way of organizing the Events... and it will give a lot more control over both the registration of Events, but also the relations between the relation between humans, families, events and places...
And of course, any entry registered should be documented, i.e. linked to a source with a citation/reference.

But to get the genealogy society to understand that lineage-linked research in reality is a history altering bad way of doing research as long as they add historical events like census', disaster, wars and more as personal events, is really hard...
Usually you get some comments like "we are not historians", "Go find an event based or source based software then..." or as for not long ago here in this forum "you are welcome to make a fork of Gramps, I'm not a historian, im an amateur genealogist, so I don't want to change the way i'm doing things..." 
Even if its possible to register something with a workaround, it's not the same as that its a good way of doing it... anything can be registered in a flat text only file too, but its not a good practice and it will become a hassle to organize the information after some time...

And if a software like Gramps had feature that could been used in other types of historical research, the user base may grow, and I think many historians actually could help out with the development of the software, because many has experience with i.e. "R"-programming to create their own research solutions, and as I understand, there are not a growing flow of developers to this project...

j.

Den tor. 21. feb. 2019 kl. 15:17 skrev Tony Proctor <[hidden email]>:


On 21/02/2019 00:02, StoltHD wrote:
Half way workarounds are never a good way to solve a problem...

When doing like you suggest, whats actually happen is that you rewrite historical events, when enough people do the same, it become a really big problem, just see whats happens on gine.com, familysearch.org, ancestry.com, myheritage and any other online service where people add events and links without sources and citations...
It become a huge problem that nearly impossible to correct.




I'd like to suggest another way of looking at events. While it might sound too complicated, on the face of it, it might also trigger some lateral thinking that might be more useful to Gramps.

I admit that I am not really a Gramps user, but -- as some will know -- I have been researching a very different route to genealogy for some years.

I believe it's an important observation that events should be backed by cited sources, but you can stand this on its head so that events are merely a consequence of the source material rather than something that has to be constructed separately. I realised, a good while back, that virtually every source I had used had a date, or date range, associated with it, and so could be construed as defining an "event" in the history of that person, family, place, or whatever.

I have to clarify what I mean by "event". Most people would agree that it's something that happened at a particular time, and probably at a particular place. This isn't the same as just global or historic events since it also includes the small fine-grained events that constitute the micro-history of those lives. So, for instance, a birth certificate represents a birth event -- it could also be used to define a birth-registration event if there's a second date available on it (as in the UK).  Similar with a census page: although there was some debate on this thread as to whether there is such a thing as a "census event", there was a collection of those census returns on a particular day, and they described the status and location of several people on a particular day (usually taken to be the same day), and so effectively describe an event in those lives.

When it comes to global events, such as WWII, then this thread has debated the practicality of setting a specific place. I solved this by making events hierarchical. For instance, although the main WWII event spanned several years and several places, it could be broken down into separate campaigns, battles, or any war-related event for which a source exists. The child events are merely constrained by the date-range of the parent event. This scheme also handles a "voyage event", where the embarkation date/place is different to the disembarkation date/place, and yet most of us would consider it to be a single "event". You already have person hierarchies (i.e. lineage) and place hierarchies, so are event hierarchies one step too far?

I understand about fears of bloated features, but a different perspective can sometimes yield a simpler user interface. That worked perfectly for me, but then I had no compatibility issues to be concerned with. In other words, I appreciate if these suggests might be too far removed from what Gramps does now.

Tony


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Re: Implementation Proposal for Historical Ev

Cheryl Viering
In reply to this post by GRAMPS - User mailing list
StoltHD,
There are many aspects of genealogy. My interest is in remembering and understanding the lives of people from the past. For that purpose, censuses, epidemics, and wars provide information and/or context to their lives. I might find a use for a hierarchy of events. 

I don’t understand what you mean by “history altering bad way of doing research”.

On Feb 23, 2019, at 7:09 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2019 18:51:05 +0100
From: StoltHD <[hidden email]>
To: "[hidden email]"
<[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] Implementation Proposal for Historical Ev
Message-ID:
<[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Tony, It was Emyoulation workaround I was commenting here... I have read a
lot of what you have wrote and I actually agree with most everything...

Nearly all events are place related and would occur regardless of a
research object (read person) would be at that place to that given time,
still, lineage-linked research force us to register the events on a
person... Even though a person only is a participant of a given event...
A hierarchy of Events would be a great way of organizing the Events... and
it will give a lot more control over both the registration of Events, but
also the relations between the relation between humans, families, events
and places...
And of course, any entry registered should be documented, i.e. linked to a
source with a citation/reference.

But to get the genealogy society to understand that lineage-linked research
in reality is a history altering bad way of doing research as long as they
add historical events like census', disaster, wars and more as personal
events, is really hard...
Usually you get some comments like "we are not historians", "Go find an
event based or source based software then..." or as for not long ago here
in this forum "you are welcome to make a fork of Gramps, I'm not a
historian, im an amateur genealogist, so I don't want to change the way i'm
doing things..."
Even if its possible to register something with a workaround, it's not the
same as that its a good way of doing it... anything can be registered in a
flat text only file too, but its not a good practice and it will become a
hassle to organize the information after some time...



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