Island vs. Country

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Island vs. Country

Danuvius
Greetings,

How do people input Island information into the Place fields?

San Fernando is in the *country* of "Trinidad and Tobago" and on the
*island* or "Trinidad" (as opposed to Tobago).

Putting "Trinidad" for country seems inaccurate, but so does putting
"Trinidad and Tobago" for country and "Trinidad" for county...

Admittedly, "San Fernando, Trinidad and Tobago" is unambiguous since
San Fernando is a top level administrative division in the country.
Still, it would be nice to be able to indicate the island.

What have others done in this sort of situation?

Sincerely,

Danuvius

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Re: Island vs. Country

Gerald Britton-2
Well, technically, North and South America is an island (or two, with
the Panama canal.) Similarly, Eurasia is an island, thanks to the Suez
canal.  Closer to your example, Great Britain is an Island with three
"countries" -- England, Wales and Scotland -- though whether they
qualify as countries is a bit of a hot political potato in some
quarters.  There are others: Cyprus (more hot politics) and Papua New
Guinea come to mind.

I think though, that most people ignore the island, no matter how big
or small.  On the other hand, there are countries like Indonesia or
the Philpipines that exist on many islands.  I suppose one might want
to record the island name if the village or province was not
sufficient.  What I would probably do, though, is simply add a note to
the gramps Place.

On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 7:13 PM, Danuvius <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Greetings,
>
> How do people input Island information into the Place fields?
>
> San Fernando is in the *country* of "Trinidad and Tobago" and on the
> *island* or "Trinidad" (as opposed to Tobago).
>
> Putting "Trinidad" for country seems inaccurate, but so does putting
> "Trinidad and Tobago" for country and "Trinidad" for county...
>
> Admittedly, "San Fernando, Trinidad and Tobago" is unambiguous since
> San Fernando is a top level administrative division in the country.
> Still, it would be nice to be able to indicate the island.
>
> What have others done in this sort of situation?
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Danuvius
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge
> Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win great prizes
> Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world
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> _______________________________________________
> Gramps-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
>

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Re: Island vs. Country

Martin Steer-2
"Gerald Britton" <[hidden email]> writes:

> Closer to your example, Great Britain is an Island with three
> "countries" -- England, Wales and Scotland -- though whether they
> qualify as countries is a bit of a hot political potato in some
> quarters. There are others: Cyprus (more hot politics) and Papua New
> Guinea come to mind.

Papua New Guinea is also a country of many islands, but shares the
island of New Guinea with the Indonesian province of Papua.

--
Martin

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Re: Island vs. Country

Danuvius
In reply to this post by Gerald Britton-2
Dear Gerald,

Based on the examples you've stated, I think I may have been misunderstood.

Trinidad & Tobago is the name of a country that consists of multiple
islands, two of which (*Trinidad*, and *Tobago*) are much larger than
the rest.  Tobago, while being much smaller than Trinidad, is larger
than several of Trinidad's "Regional Corporations" (which are
Trinidad's version of counties).  Most significantly both islands have
multiple municipalities.  While I do not know for a fact whether there
are municipalities that are on different islands but share the same
name, it is perfectly possible.

In essence, the island *is* arguably more useful than the country name
for places located either on the island of Trinidad or on the island
of Tobago, since the mention of either of those "name-giving islands"
automatically implies that the country is "Trinidad & Tobago".  In
other words, with the current restriction (i.e.: no "island" field) it
currently makes more sense to incorrectly enter either "Trinidad" or
"Tobago" into the country field.

In the case of smaller islands, however, it seems unavoidable (if one
wishes to meaningfully specify the place at all) to use both a country
and an island name.  Most of the smaller islands (possibly all of
them, I am not sure) are uninhabited but have and/or had facilities
located on them ranging from lighthouses to ship docks, et cetera.  No
municipalities with names though.

So if I had a family mebmer who works in the Lighthouse on
Chacachacare island, or had an ancestor who was once a nun in the now
occupied nun's quarters on the same island... basically there is no
standard way of noting this in gramps.

( No--really: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chacachacare )

The problem isn't multiple countries on the same island.  In that case
obviously the island name does not matter.  The problem is:

(1) one country spanning multiple islands
(2) the possibility of multiple municipalities in said country with
the same name, but on different islands
(3) and the possibility of places without municipality names that are
identifiable only by specifying the island name (along with the
country name)

I should note, my specific place that I am entering does not suffer
from either of the above stated issues.  However the above are genuine
problems that could very well occur for people whose ancestors hail
from archipelagic states.

In my humble opinion, there should be a way of specifying the island
in cases where it makes a difference.  (And, obviously ignored, where
it doesn't... like in all the cases you mentioned.)

Sincerely,

Danuvius



On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 2:06 PM, Gerald Britton <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Well, technically, North and South America is an island (or two, with
> the Panama canal.) Similarly, Eurasia is an island, thanks to the Suez
> canal.  Closer to your example, Great Britain is an Island with three
> "countries" -- England, Wales and Scotland -- though whether they
> qualify as countries is a bit of a hot political potato in some
> quarters.  There are others: Cyprus (more hot politics) and Papua New
> Guinea come to mind.
>
> I think though, that most people ignore the island, no matter how big
> or small.  On the other hand, there are countries like Indonesia or
> the Philpipines that exist on many islands.  I suppose one might want
> to record the island name if the village or province was not
> sufficient.  What I would probably do, though, is simply add a note to
> the gramps Place.
>
> On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 7:13 PM, Danuvius <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Greetings,
>>
>> How do people input Island information into the Place fields?
>>
>> San Fernando is in the *country* of "Trinidad and Tobago" and on the
>> *island* or "Trinidad" (as opposed to Tobago).
>>
>> Putting "Trinidad" for country seems inaccurate, but so does putting
>> "Trinidad and Tobago" for country and "Trinidad" for county...
>>
>> Admittedly, "San Fernando, Trinidad and Tobago" is unambiguous since
>> San Fernando is a top level administrative division in the country.
>> Still, it would be nice to be able to indicate the island.
>>
>> What have others done in this sort of situation?
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Danuvius
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge
>> Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win great prizes
>> Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world
>> http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/
>> _______________________________________________
>> Gramps-users mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
>>
>

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Re: Island vs. Country

Gerald Britton-2
Interesting explanation although I most certainly disagree with you
conclusion. Countries spanning many islands are common. The
philipines, indonesia, new guinea and even canada and the us qualify
(plenty of island dwellers in both). Hawaii is one state with many
islands. Canada has the Thousand Islands with several communities on
them.  Montreal and new york are cities on more than one island.

Places can be used however you wish but the standard use is for
time-specific political and/or civic addresses. Note that you can have
several address tabs for one place and each address tab has a note
field for other data.

In your case, I would record the civic address including the county
(or whatever corresponds to a county in T & T) and country. Then I
would add a note indicating which island(s) the place was on.

Hope this helps.



On 9/2/08, Danuvius <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Dear Gerald,
>
> Based on the examples you've stated, I think I may have been misunderstood.
>
> Trinidad & Tobago is the name of a country that consists of multiple
> islands, two of which (*Trinidad*, and *Tobago*) are much larger than
> the rest.  Tobago, while being much smaller than Trinidad, is larger
> than several of Trinidad's "Regional Corporations" (which are
> Trinidad's version of counties).  Most significantly both islands have
> multiple municipalities.  While I do not know for a fact whether there
> are municipalities that are on different islands but share the same
> name, it is perfectly possible.
>
> In essence, the island *is* arguably more useful than the country name
> for places located either on the island of Trinidad or on the island
> of Tobago, since the mention of either of those "name-giving islands"
> automatically implies that the country is "Trinidad & Tobago".  In
> other words, with the current restriction (i.e.: no "island" field) it
> currently makes more sense to incorrectly enter either "Trinidad" or
> "Tobago" into the country field.
>
> In the case of smaller islands, however, it seems unavoidable (if one
> wishes to meaningfully specify the place at all) to use both a country
> and an island name.  Most of the smaller islands (possibly all of
> them, I am not sure) are uninhabited but have and/or had facilities
> located on them ranging from lighthouses to ship docks, et cetera.  No
> municipalities with names though.
>
> So if I had a family mebmer who works in the Lighthouse on
> Chacachacare island, or had an ancestor who was once a nun in the now
> occupied nun's quarters on the same island... basically there is no
> standard way of noting this in gramps.
>
> ( No--really: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chacachacare )
>
> The problem isn't multiple countries on the same island.  In that case
> obviously the island name does not matter.  The problem is:
>
> (1) one country spanning multiple islands
> (2) the possibility of multiple municipalities in said country with
> the same name, but on different islands
> (3) and the possibility of places without municipality names that are
> identifiable only by specifying the island name (along with the
> country name)
>
> I should note, my specific place that I am entering does not suffer
> from either of the above stated issues.  However the above are genuine
> problems that could very well occur for people whose ancestors hail
> from archipelagic states.
>
> In my humble opinion, there should be a way of specifying the island
> in cases where it makes a difference.  (And, obviously ignored, where
> it doesn't... like in all the cases you mentioned.)
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Danuvius
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 2:06 PM, Gerald Britton <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>> Well, technically, North and South America is an island (or two, with
>> the Panama canal.) Similarly, Eurasia is an island, thanks to the Suez
>> canal.  Closer to your example, Great Britain is an Island with three
>> "countries" -- England, Wales and Scotland -- though whether they
>> qualify as countries is a bit of a hot political potato in some
>> quarters.  There are others: Cyprus (more hot politics) and Papua New
>> Guinea come to mind.
>>
>> I think though, that most people ignore the island, no matter how big
>> or small.  On the other hand, there are countries like Indonesia or
>> the Philpipines that exist on many islands.  I suppose one might want
>> to record the island name if the village or province was not
>> sufficient.  What I would probably do, though, is simply add a note to
>> the gramps Place.
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 7:13 PM, Danuvius <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Greetings,
>>>
>>> How do people input Island information into the Place fields?
>>>
>>> San Fernando is in the *country* of "Trinidad and Tobago" and on the
>>> *island* or "Trinidad" (as opposed to Tobago).
>>>
>>> Putting "Trinidad" for country seems inaccurate, but so does putting
>>> "Trinidad and Tobago" for country and "Trinidad" for county...
>>>
>>> Admittedly, "San Fernando, Trinidad and Tobago" is unambiguous since
>>> San Fernando is a top level administrative division in the country.
>>> Still, it would be nice to be able to indicate the island.
>>>
>>> What have others done in this sort of situation?
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>>
>>> Danuvius
>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's
>>> challenge
>>> Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win great
>>> prizes
>>> Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the
>>> world
>>> http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Gramps-users mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
>>>
>>
>

--
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Re: Island vs. Country

Rich Gomes
In reply to this post by Danuvius
This is something I have wondered about since I starting collecting my
family history.

My family is from Madeira, which is an island that was once owned by
Portugal but now almost completely autonomous.
Similar to those from the Azores, when people are asked of their nationality
or heritage, they say "Portuguese".
If asked where in Portugal or what part they will then respond with Madeira,
Terceira, São Miguel  etc...

Is this something that can be built into a future version?
How would it be broken down?

Thoughts?

Any other Portuguese on the list?

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Danuvius
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 7:14 PM
To: Gerald Britton
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] Island vs. Country

Dear Gerald,

Based on the examples you've stated, I think I may have been misunderstood.

Trinidad & Tobago is the name of a country that consists of multiple
islands, two of which (*Trinidad*, and *Tobago*) are much larger than
the rest.  Tobago, while being much smaller than Trinidad, is larger
than several of Trinidad's "Regional Corporations" (which are
Trinidad's version of counties).  Most significantly both islands have
multiple municipalities.  While I do not know for a fact whether there
are municipalities that are on different islands but share the same
name, it is perfectly possible.

In essence, the island *is* arguably more useful than the country name
for places located either on the island of Trinidad or on the island
of Tobago, since the mention of either of those "name-giving islands"
automatically implies that the country is "Trinidad & Tobago".  In
other words, with the current restriction (i.e.: no "island" field) it
currently makes more sense to incorrectly enter either "Trinidad" or
"Tobago" into the country field.

In the case of smaller islands, however, it seems unavoidable (if one
wishes to meaningfully specify the place at all) to use both a country
and an island name.  Most of the smaller islands (possibly all of
them, I am not sure) are uninhabited but have and/or had facilities
located on them ranging from lighthouses to ship docks, et cetera.  No
municipalities with names though.

So if I had a family mebmer who works in the Lighthouse on
Chacachacare island, or had an ancestor who was once a nun in the now
occupied nun's quarters on the same island... basically there is no
standard way of noting this in gramps.

( No--really: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chacachacare )

The problem isn't multiple countries on the same island.  In that case
obviously the island name does not matter.  The problem is:

(1) one country spanning multiple islands
(2) the possibility of multiple municipalities in said country with
the same name, but on different islands
(3) and the possibility of places without municipality names that are
identifiable only by specifying the island name (along with the
country name)

I should note, my specific place that I am entering does not suffer
from either of the above stated issues.  However the above are genuine
problems that could very well occur for people whose ancestors hail
from archipelagic states.

In my humble opinion, there should be a way of specifying the island
in cases where it makes a difference.  (And, obviously ignored, where
it doesn't... like in all the cases you mentioned.)

Sincerely,

Danuvius



On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 2:06 PM, Gerald Britton <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Well, technically, North and South America is an island (or two, with
> the Panama canal.) Similarly, Eurasia is an island, thanks to the Suez
> canal.  Closer to your example, Great Britain is an Island with three
> "countries" -- England, Wales and Scotland -- though whether they
> qualify as countries is a bit of a hot political potato in some
> quarters.  There are others: Cyprus (more hot politics) and Papua New
> Guinea come to mind.
>
> I think though, that most people ignore the island, no matter how big
> or small.  On the other hand, there are countries like Indonesia or
> the Philpipines that exist on many islands.  I suppose one might want
> to record the island name if the village or province was not
> sufficient.  What I would probably do, though, is simply add a note to
> the gramps Place.
>
> On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 7:13 PM, Danuvius <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Greetings,
>>
>> How do people input Island information into the Place fields?
>>
>> San Fernando is in the *country* of "Trinidad and Tobago" and on the
>> *island* or "Trinidad" (as opposed to Tobago).
>>
>> Putting "Trinidad" for country seems inaccurate, but so does putting
>> "Trinidad and Tobago" for country and "Trinidad" for county...
>>
>> Admittedly, "San Fernando, Trinidad and Tobago" is unambiguous since
>> San Fernando is a top level administrative division in the country.
>> Still, it would be nice to be able to indicate the island.
>>
>> What have others done in this sort of situation?
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Danuvius
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's
challenge
>> Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win great
prizes
>> Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the
world
>> http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/
>> _______________________________________________
>> Gramps-users mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
>>
>

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Re: Island vs. Country

Gerald Britton-2
Remember that places can have multiple addreses. That is the simple
way to capture places that have changed their political affiliation
over time (like most places!).



On 9/2/08, Rich Gomes <[hidden email]> wrote:

> This is something I have wondered about since I starting collecting my
> family history.
>
> My family is from Madeira, which is an island that was once owned by
> Portugal but now almost completely autonomous.
> Similar to those from the Azores, when people are asked of their nationality
> or heritage, they say "Portuguese".
> If asked where in Portugal or what part they will then respond with Madeira,
> Terceira, São Miguel  etc...
>
> Is this something that can be built into a future version?
> How would it be broken down?
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Any other Portuguese on the list?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Danuvius
> Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 7:14 PM
> To: Gerald Britton
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] Island vs. Country
>
> Dear Gerald,
>
> Based on the examples you've stated, I think I may have been misunderstood.
>
> Trinidad & Tobago is the name of a country that consists of multiple
> islands, two of which (*Trinidad*, and *Tobago*) are much larger than
> the rest.  Tobago, while being much smaller than Trinidad, is larger
> than several of Trinidad's "Regional Corporations" (which are
> Trinidad's version of counties).  Most significantly both islands have
> multiple municipalities.  While I do not know for a fact whether there
> are municipalities that are on different islands but share the same
> name, it is perfectly possible.
>
> In essence, the island *is* arguably more useful than the country name
> for places located either on the island of Trinidad or on the island
> of Tobago, since the mention of either of those "name-giving islands"
> automatically implies that the country is "Trinidad & Tobago".  In
> other words, with the current restriction (i.e.: no "island" field) it
> currently makes more sense to incorrectly enter either "Trinidad" or
> "Tobago" into the country field.
>
> In the case of smaller islands, however, it seems unavoidable (if one
> wishes to meaningfully specify the place at all) to use both a country
> and an island name.  Most of the smaller islands (possibly all of
> them, I am not sure) are uninhabited but have and/or had facilities
> located on them ranging from lighthouses to ship docks, et cetera.  No
> municipalities with names though.
>
> So if I had a family mebmer who works in the Lighthouse on
> Chacachacare island, or had an ancestor who was once a nun in the now
> occupied nun's quarters on the same island... basically there is no
> standard way of noting this in gramps.
>
> ( No--really: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chacachacare )
>
> The problem isn't multiple countries on the same island.  In that case
> obviously the island name does not matter.  The problem is:
>
> (1) one country spanning multiple islands
> (2) the possibility of multiple municipalities in said country with
> the same name, but on different islands
> (3) and the possibility of places without municipality names that are
> identifiable only by specifying the island name (along with the
> country name)
>
> I should note, my specific place that I am entering does not suffer
> from either of the above stated issues.  However the above are genuine
> problems that could very well occur for people whose ancestors hail
> from archipelagic states.
>
> In my humble opinion, there should be a way of specifying the island
> in cases where it makes a difference.  (And, obviously ignored, where
> it doesn't... like in all the cases you mentioned.)
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Danuvius
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 2:06 PM, Gerald Britton <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>> Well, technically, North and South America is an island (or two, with
>> the Panama canal.) Similarly, Eurasia is an island, thanks to the Suez
>> canal.  Closer to your example, Great Britain is an Island with three
>> "countries" -- England, Wales and Scotland -- though whether they
>> qualify as countries is a bit of a hot political potato in some
>> quarters.  There are others: Cyprus (more hot politics) and Papua New
>> Guinea come to mind.
>>
>> I think though, that most people ignore the island, no matter how big
>> or small.  On the other hand, there are countries like Indonesia or
>> the Philpipines that exist on many islands.  I suppose one might want
>> to record the island name if the village or province was not
>> sufficient.  What I would probably do, though, is simply add a note to
>> the gramps Place.
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 7:13 PM, Danuvius <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Greetings,
>>>
>>> How do people input Island information into the Place fields?
>>>
>>> San Fernando is in the *country* of "Trinidad and Tobago" and on the
>>> *island* or "Trinidad" (as opposed to Tobago).
>>>
>>> Putting "Trinidad" for country seems inaccurate, but so does putting
>>> "Trinidad and Tobago" for country and "Trinidad" for county...
>>>
>>> Admittedly, "San Fernando, Trinidad and Tobago" is unambiguous since
>>> San Fernando is a top level administrative division in the country.
>>> Still, it would be nice to be able to indicate the island.
>>>
>>> What have others done in this sort of situation?
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>>
>>> Danuvius
>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's
> challenge
>>> Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win great
> prizes
>>> Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the
> world
>>> http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/
>>> _______________________________________________
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Re: Island vs. Country

Danuvius
In reply to this post by Gerald Britton-2
Does it change your mind at all that unlike continental Canadian and
American islands, smaller Trinidad & Tobago islands are not located
within counties or other administrative divisions... or that Hawaii
has at least two counties that consist of multiple islands (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kauai_County,_Hawaii and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maui_County,_Hawaii )?

Regarding civic addresses, international mail sent to Tobago is (to
the best of my knowledge) generally addressed as '123 Any street,
Municipality, Tobago, Trinidad & Tobago, West Indies' (West Indies
being akin to specifying 'Europe' or 'Asia' on international mail) and
international mail addressed to Trinidad is sometimes addressed as
'123 Any street, Municipality, Trinidad, West Indies' (leaving out the
country name in favour of the island name).

Also, a Canadian island address for you (I added the stars) in Toronto no less:

http://www.waterfrontmontessori.net/contact/

Waterfront Montessori lists its address as:
18 Wyandot Avenue
***Algonquin Island***
Toronto M5J 2M9

I have not the time to dwell greatly more on this, but I would be
surprised if the thousand islands region did not use Island names in
addresses... unless the addresses are simply called rural routes
(RRs), which is the case in some very remote areas.

I guess at the end of the day, your suggestion works, Gerald.  However
in any situation where adding the island name genuinely adds value, it
feels like a bit of a work-around.  I still think there are situations
where having an 'island' field would be useful.

The non-fictional nun's residence from my previous message has no
municipality, no county, no state or province, just a country, a
nondescript name of 'Nun's residence' (unless I find out what it used
to be called), and a note or comment that it is on Chacachacare
island.

I'm not suggesting that this is untenable... it just seems a bit odd
to me that there is no specific field for what is, in this fictional
case, one of two pieces of identifying informations about the location
of the place.

Sincerely,

Danuvius



On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 12:36 AM, Gerald Britton
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Interesting explanation although I most certainly disagree with you
> conclusion. Countries spanning many islands are common. The
> philipines, indonesia, new guinea and even canada and the us qualify
> (plenty of island dwellers in both). Hawaii is one state with many
> islands. Canada has the Thousand Islands with several communities on
> them.  Montreal and new york are cities on more than one island.
>
> Places can be used however you wish but the standard use is for
> time-specific political and/or civic addresses. Note that you can have
> several address tabs for one place and each address tab has a note
> field for other data.
>
> In your case, I would record the civic address including the county
> (or whatever corresponds to a county in T & T) and country. Then I
> would add a note indicating which island(s) the place was on.
>
> Hope this helps.

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Re: Island vs. Country

Gerald Britton-2
My feeling is that if we add a space for island names we should also
add peninsulae, isthmi, continents, planets, solar systems, etc.
(Might as well think ahead!).

Also keep in mind that these extensions would have to be recorded as
notes in a gedcom export anyway since they are not part of the
standard.

Note that though the school may use "Algonquin Island" in its address
(I actually know the school) this is not, I believe, part of it's
legal address though I'd have to check canada post to be sure.

Fwiw a similar problem exists with English addresses, where you often
find an address like The Cloisters, 1 Church St, Clerkenwell, London,
Middlesex, England. I usually put the Town, City pair in the city
field. You use a similar approach with the Island names, e.g. put
town,island in the city field or countu, island in the county field.




On 9/2/08, Danuvius <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Does it change your mind at all that unlike continental Canadian and
> American islands, smaller Trinidad & Tobago islands are not located
> within counties or other administrative divisions... or that Hawaii
> has at least two counties that consist of multiple islands (
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kauai_County,_Hawaii and
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maui_County,_Hawaii )?
>
> Regarding civic addresses, international mail sent to Tobago is (to
> the best of my knowledge) generally addressed as '123 Any street,
> Municipality, Tobago, Trinidad & Tobago, West Indies' (West Indies
> being akin to specifying 'Europe' or 'Asia' on international mail) and
> international mail addressed to Trinidad is sometimes addressed as
> '123 Any street, Municipality, Trinidad, West Indies' (leaving out the
> country name in favour of the island name).
>
> Also, a Canadian island address for you (I added the stars) in Toronto no
> less:
>
> http://www.waterfrontmontessori.net/contact/
>
> Waterfront Montessori lists its address as:
> 18 Wyandot Avenue
> ***Algonquin Island***
> Toronto M5J 2M9
>
> I have not the time to dwell greatly more on this, but I would be
> surprised if the thousand islands region did not use Island names in
> addresses... unless the addresses are simply called rural routes
> (RRs), which is the case in some very remote areas.
>
> I guess at the end of the day, your suggestion works, Gerald.  However
> in any situation where adding the island name genuinely adds value, it
> feels like a bit of a work-around.  I still think there are situations
> where having an 'island' field would be useful.
>
> The non-fictional nun's residence from my previous message has no
> municipality, no county, no state or province, just a country, a
> nondescript name of 'Nun's residence' (unless I find out what it used
> to be called), and a note or comment that it is on Chacachacare
> island.
>
> I'm not suggesting that this is untenable... it just seems a bit odd
> to me that there is no specific field for what is, in this fictional
> case, one of two pieces of identifying informations about the location
> of the place.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Danuvius
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 12:36 AM, Gerald Britton
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Interesting explanation although I most certainly disagree with you
>> conclusion. Countries spanning many islands are common. The
>> philipines, indonesia, new guinea and even canada and the us qualify
>> (plenty of island dwellers in both). Hawaii is one state with many
>> islands. Canada has the Thousand Islands with several communities on
>> them.  Montreal and new york are cities on more than one island.
>>
>> Places can be used however you wish but the standard use is for
>> time-specific political and/or civic addresses. Note that you can have
>> several address tabs for one place and each address tab has a note
>> field for other data.
>>
>> In your case, I would record the civic address including the county
>> (or whatever corresponds to a county in T & T) and country. Then I
>> would add a note indicating which island(s) the place was on.
>>
>> Hope this helps.
>

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Re: Island vs. Country

Martin Steer-2
In reply to this post by Danuvius
Danuvius <[hidden email]> writes:

>
> I'm not suggesting that this is untenable... it just seems a bit odd
> to me that there is no specific field for what is, in this fictional
> case, one of two pieces of identifying informations about the location
> of the place.

Most Australians live in a city suburb, with an address such as:

1 Boxer Street,
Chippendale,
NSW  [postal code],
Australia

Chippendale isn't a city, county or parish and therefore doesn't have a
proper gramps tag. It's a suburb of Sydney, although in the address
above it is listed as a town or city would be. For the postal service
that's fine, but for a genealogy database it's not so good, because we
probably want to be reminded that it is a part of Sydney. I would like
it to list under Sydney in the places view, as well as in its own proper
column.

I agree with Gerald, however, that this doesn't matter too much. What
matters more is how the fields provided by Gramps are ordered, and
tagged, in reports.

To my mind, if Gramps fails here, it is for being too specific in the
tags it provides. The only reasonable way I can see to address that
would be to provide a greater level of user configuration, of a kind
that Gramps doesn't possess. Five address levels, provide your own field
tag. My impression, however, is that neither users nor developers would
favour such an approach.

--
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Re: Island vs. Country

Paul Blair
Um, yes. But you don't include Sydney in a written address, so why would you
put it into a family db? In truth, Sydney is only the core part of the city.

But if you want tangles, try Great Britain, United Kingdom, Ireland (both
bits), Scotland and Wales. From Australia, we tend (but not everyone does)
address stuff to Scotland or Ireland or England - and GB or UK simply left
off!

There is a Geonames forum, where these debates rage...

Paul


> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:gramps-users-
> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Martin Steer
> Sent: Wednesday, 3 September 2008 1:55pm
> To: Danuvius
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] Island vs. Country
>
> Danuvius <[hidden email]> writes:
>
> >
> > I'm not suggesting that this is untenable... it just seems a bit odd
> > to me that there is no specific field for what is, in this fictional
> > case, one of two pieces of identifying informations about the
> location
> > of the place.
>
> Most Australians live in a city suburb, with an address such as:
>
> 1 Boxer Street,
> Chippendale,
> NSW  [postal code],
> Australia
>
> Chippendale isn't a city, county or parish and therefore doesn't have a
> proper gramps tag. It's a suburb of Sydney, although in the address
> above it is listed as a town or city would be. For the postal service
> that's fine, but for a genealogy database it's not so good, because we
> probably want to be reminded that it is a part of Sydney. I would like
> it to list under Sydney in the places view, as well as in its own
> proper
> column.
>
> I agree with Gerald, however, that this doesn't matter too much. What
> matters more is how the fields provided by Gramps are ordered, and
> tagged, in reports.
>
> To my mind, if Gramps fails here, it is for being too specific in the
> tags it provides. The only reasonable way I can see to address that
> would be to provide a greater level of user configuration, of a kind
> that Gramps doesn't possess. Five address levels, provide your own
> field
> tag. My impression, however, is that neither users nor developers would
> favour such an approach.
>
> --
> Martin
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
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> challenge
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Re: Island vs. Country

Martin Steer-2
"Paul Blair" <[hidden email]> writes:

> Um, yes. But you don't include Sydney in a written address, so why
> would you put it into a family db? In truth, Sydney is only the core
> part of the city.
>

The postal service doesn't require Sydney in the written address.

For the purposes of genealogy, if I have generations of one family in
and around Alexandria, Chippendale, Redfern, it matters that these are
all particular parts of (inner-city) Sydney, rather than random parts of
New South Wales.

For the purposes of finding and comparing people and events within the
database, larger units such as Sydney are a useful organisational
device.

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Re: Island vs. Country

Paul Blair
But it's an undefined quantity. Where do you stop/start to use it?

Paul

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:gramps-users-
> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Martin Steer
> Sent: Wednesday, 3 September 2008 3:09pm
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] Island vs. Country
>
> "Paul Blair" <[hidden email]> writes:
>
> > Um, yes. But you don't include Sydney in a written address, so why
> > would you put it into a family db? In truth, Sydney is only the core
> > part of the city.
> >
>
> The postal service doesn't require Sydney in the written address.
>
> For the purposes of genealogy, if I have generations of one family in
> and around Alexandria, Chippendale, Redfern, it matters that these are
> all particular parts of (inner-city) Sydney, rather than random parts
> of
> New South Wales.
>
> For the purposes of finding and comparing people and events within the
> database, larger units such as Sydney are a useful organisational
> device.
>
> --
> Martin
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's
> challenge
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Re: Island vs. Country

Martin Steer-2
"Paul Blair" <[hidden email]> writes:

> But it's an undefined quantity. Where do you stop/start to use it?

There is a Geonames forum, where these debates rage...

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Re: Island vs. Country

jerome
In reply to this post by Paul Blair
Hi,


Can I play ?
In france, Island are states (-like) or singles places :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_islands_of_France
       
The status are varied but the hierarchy used in this list seems
consistent. The most amusing/funny is that in theory all these places
are in Europe since attached to France !!!


Jérôme


Paul Blair a écrit :

> Um, yes. But you don't include Sydney in a written address, so why would you
> put it into a family db? In truth, Sydney is only the core part of the city.
>
> But if you want tangles, try Great Britain, United Kingdom, Ireland (both
> bits), Scotland and Wales. From Australia, we tend (but not everyone does)
> address stuff to Scotland or Ireland or England - and GB or UK simply left
> off!
>
> There is a Geonames forum, where these debates rage...
>
> Paul
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email] [mailto:gramps-users-
>> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Martin Steer
>> Sent: Wednesday, 3 September 2008 1:55pm
>> To: Danuvius
>> Cc: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] Island vs. Country
>>
>> Danuvius <[hidden email]> writes:
>>
>>> I'm not suggesting that this is untenable... it just seems a bit odd
>>> to me that there is no specific field for what is, in this fictional
>>> case, one of two pieces of identifying informations about the
>> location
>>> of the place.
>> Most Australians live in a city suburb, with an address such as:
>>
>> 1 Boxer Street,
>> Chippendale,
>> NSW  [postal code],
>> Australia
>>
>> Chippendale isn't a city, county or parish and therefore doesn't have a
>> proper gramps tag. It's a suburb of Sydney, although in the address
>> above it is listed as a town or city would be. For the postal service
>> that's fine, but for a genealogy database it's not so good, because we
>> probably want to be reminded that it is a part of Sydney. I would like
>> it to list under Sydney in the places view, as well as in its own
>> proper
>> column.
>>
>> I agree with Gerald, however, that this doesn't matter too much. What
>> matters more is how the fields provided by Gramps are ordered, and
>> tagged, in reports.
>>
>> To my mind, if Gramps fails here, it is for being too specific in the
>> tags it provides. The only reasonable way I can see to address that
>> would be to provide a greater level of user configuration, of a kind
>> that Gramps doesn't possess. Five address levels, provide your own
>> field
>> tag. My impression, however, is that neither users nor developers would
>> favour such an approach.
>>
>> --
>> Martin
>>
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --
>> This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's
>> challenge
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>> prizes
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>> world
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>
>
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Re: Island vs. Country

Benny Malengier
In reply to this post by Danuvius
You can add most islands just fine.
You should consider the place fields not completely as the label they have. The idea is to be able to change the labels depending on the country you select somewhere in the future. In English, the USA labels are used :-)

So I see it as something like:

Description
Level 0  --> country
Level 1  --> state
Level 2  --> county
Level 3  --> City
Level 10 --> Street
Level-religeous --> Parish


Point 1 is to translate the levels to the correct names for a specific country. For some countries it might be that island fits in the levels. Mostly though, island is a geographic delimitation, and as such does not fit in with the administrative division

If I find island important though, I would denote island on the level it fits best together with the division, so I would use as Level 2 for those countries that have counties: 'Countyname, island'
You could also denote it on the state level if Trinidad does not have states and Level 2 is always part of the level 1 Island indication.

Note further that the description (place name) is a very powerfull tool too. Always make it something relevant composed of the different levels, eg streetname, city, island, state abbreviation, Country
If you like nice sorting in the place view, you might do this the other way around, so that sorting on placename shows nicely countries/states/... together

Hope this was usefull

Benny

2008/9/3 Danuvius <[hidden email]>
Does it change your mind at all that unlike continental Canadian and
American islands, smaller Trinidad & Tobago islands are not located
within counties or other administrative divisions... or that Hawaii
has at least two counties that consist of multiple islands (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kauai_County,_Hawaii and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maui_County,_Hawaii )?

Regarding civic addresses, international mail sent to Tobago is (to
the best of my knowledge) generally addressed as '123 Any street,
Municipality, Tobago, Trinidad & Tobago, West Indies' (West Indies
being akin to specifying 'Europe' or 'Asia' on international mail) and
international mail addressed to Trinidad is sometimes addressed as
'123 Any street, Municipality, Trinidad, West Indies' (leaving out the
country name in favour of the island name).

Also, a Canadian island address for you (I added the stars) in Toronto no less:

http://www.waterfrontmontessori.net/contact/

Waterfront Montessori lists its address as:
18 Wyandot Avenue
***Algonquin Island***
Toronto M5J 2M9

I have not the time to dwell greatly more on this, but I would be
surprised if the thousand islands region did not use Island names in
addresses... unless the addresses are simply called rural routes
(RRs), which is the case in some very remote areas.

I guess at the end of the day, your suggestion works, Gerald.  However
in any situation where adding the island name genuinely adds value, it
feels like a bit of a work-around.  I still think there are situations
where having an 'island' field would be useful.

The non-fictional nun's residence from my previous message has no
municipality, no county, no state or province, just a country, a
nondescript name of 'Nun's residence' (unless I find out what it used
to be called), and a note or comment that it is on Chacachacare
island.

I'm not suggesting that this is untenable... it just seems a bit odd
to me that there is no specific field for what is, in this fictional
case, one of two pieces of identifying informations about the location
of the place.

Sincerely,

Danuvius



On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 12:36 AM, Gerald Britton
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Interesting explanation although I most certainly disagree with you
> conclusion. Countries spanning many islands are common. The
> philipines, indonesia, new guinea and even canada and the us qualify
> (plenty of island dwellers in both). Hawaii is one state with many
> islands. Canada has the Thousand Islands with several communities on
> them.  Montreal and new york are cities on more than one island.
>
> Places can be used however you wish but the standard use is for
> time-specific political and/or civic addresses. Note that you can have
> several address tabs for one place and each address tab has a note
> field for other data.
>
> In your case, I would record the civic address including the county
> (or whatever corresponds to a county in T & T) and country. Then I
> would add a note indicating which island(s) the place was on.
>
> Hope this helps.

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Re: Island vs. Country

Eero Tamminen-3
Hi,

On Wednesday 03 September 2008, Benny Malengier wrote:

> You can add most islands just fine.
> You should consider the place fields not completely as the label they
> have. The idea is to be able to change the labels depending on the
> country you select somewhere in the future. In English, the USA labels
> are used :-)
>
> So I see it as something like:
>
> Description
> Level 0  --> country
> Level 1  --> state
> Level 2  --> county
> Level 3  --> City
> Level 10 --> Street
> Level-religeous --> Parish

How this is mapped in/to GEDCOM standard?

(I'm thinking about things getting messed on
import & export from other genealogists)

        - Eero

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Re: Island vs. Country

Duncan Lithgow-2
In reply to this post by Benny Malengier
2008/9/3 Benny Malengier <[hidden email]>:
> You can add most islands just fine.
> You should consider the place fields not completely as the label they have.
> The idea is to be able to change the labels depending on the country you
> select somewhere in the future.

I think last time we discussed this we agreed that it would be
necessary for each location schema to be time period specific.
Otherwise all the same problems come back but related to time instead
of country.

Just thought I'd mention that.

Duncan

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Re: Island vs. Country

Danuvius
In reply to this post by Eero Tamminen-3
This makes sense, actually.  Although if the NarrativeWeb plugin
outputs the island with a "State: " label, that does sour the deal a
bit.  Customizable labels would be great... even if they exported only
as a comment and were otherwise a GRAMPS specific thing.

Sincerely,

Danuvius




On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 8:12 PM, Eero Tamminen
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Wednesday 03 September 2008, Benny Malengier wrote:
>> You can add most islands just fine.
>> You should consider the place fields not completely as the label they
>> have. The idea is to be able to change the labels depending on the
>> country you select somewhere in the future. In English, the USA labels
>> are used :-)
>>
>> So I see it as something like:
>>
>> Description
>> Level 0  --> country
>> Level 1  --> state
>> Level 2  --> county
>> Level 3  --> City
>> Level 10 --> Street
>> Level-religeous --> Parish
>
> How this is mapped in/to GEDCOM standard?
>
> (I'm thinking about things getting messed on
> import & export from other genealogists)
>
>        - Eero
>

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Re: Island vs. Country

Tim Lyons
Administrator
In reply to this post by Paul Blair
Paul Blair wrote
But if you want tangles, try Great Britain, United Kingdom, Ireland (both
bits), Scotland and Wales. From Australia, we tend (but not everyone does)
address stuff to Scotland or Ireland or England - and GB or UK simply left
off!

There is a Geonames forum, where these debates rage...
My favorite site for looking at the complexities is:
http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/postal.html

I had almost completed reformatting my address book with the last elements being PostTown, County, PostCode, [Country if not UK], only to discover that the postal authority (Royal Mail) now doesn't recommend the use of county, and in addresses from Royal Mail including the database extracts they sell it is never used - with the consequence that in many cases, I couldn't discover the county!

Regards,
Tim.
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