Latest screenshot of the FamilyView

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Latest screenshot of the FamilyView

Don Allingham
http://developers.gramps-project.org/show_image.php?id=12


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Re: Latest screenshot of the FamilyView

Brian Matherly-2
Nice,

Sorry if I missed this from past discussion, but why are names underlined?

~Brian

----- Original Message ----
From: Don Allingham <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 1:05:14 PM
Subject: [Gramps-devel] Latest screenshot of the FamilyView

http://developers.gramps-project.org/show_image.php?id=12


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Re: Latest screenshot of the FamilyView

Jim Winfrey-2
In reply to this post by Don Allingham
Don Allingham wrote:

> http://developers.gramps-project.org/show_image.php?id=12
>
>
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>
I like the direction.  I do wonder what the screen will look like when a
person has 12 siblings and 8 children.  Will we have to scroll up and
down the Family page to see all the data?

Jim


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Re: Latest screenshot of the FamilyView

Don Allingham
In reply to this post by Brian Matherly-2
Brian,

The underlines names indicate links (like in a web browser). Click on
the link to navigate. It eliminates having 4 dozen buttons. :-)

Don

Brian Matherly wrote:

> Nice,
>
> Sorry if I missed this from past discussion, but why are names underlined?
>
> ~Brian
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Don Allingham <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 1:05:14 PM
> Subject: [Gramps-devel] Latest screenshot of the FamilyView
>
> http://developers.gramps-project.org/show_image.php?id=12
>
>
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Re: Latest screenshot of the FamilyView

Don Allingham
In reply to this post by Jim Winfrey-2
Jim,

This is a bit of a problem. This is one of the reasons why the person is
at the top of the page, instead of the parents. If the parents are at
the top, in large families the active person would not even be initially
visible.

I plan to make the viewing of childrend and siblings optional. One way
is to use an "expander", where the list would expand when clicked. The
other way would be to allow a setting under the View menu and/or context
menu.

    X  View Children
    X  View Siblings
    X  View Details

Don

Jim Winfrey wrote:

> Don Allingham wrote:
>
>> http://developers.gramps-project.org/show_image.php?id=12
>>
>>
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>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
> I like the direction.  I do wonder what the screen will look like when a
> person has 12 siblings and 8 children.  Will we have to scroll up and
> down the Family page to see all the data?
>
> Jim
>



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Re: Latest screenshot of the FamilyView

Eero Tamminen-3
In reply to this post by Brian Matherly-2
Hi,

Links change the active person, button allows editing.

(One problem with current Family view is/was that switching
the active person required several clicks so navigation in
the database was more awkward.)

        - Eero

On Thursday 05 January 2006 21:36, Brian Matherly wrote:
> Sorry if I missed this from past discussion, but why are names
> underlined?
>
>> From: Don Allingham <[hidden email]>
>> http://developers.gramps-project.org/show_image.php?id=12


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Re: Latest screenshot of the FamilyView

Eero Tamminen-3
In reply to this post by Don Allingham
Hi,

On Thursday 05 January 2006 21:05, Don Allingham wrote:
> http://developers.gramps-project.org/show_image.php?id=12

I liked Steve's proposal a lot about and although your implemenation
is moving to same direction, I think it Steve's latest mockup has still
some advantages:
- Active person is highlighted
- More "logical" that parents are above active person
  -> "Parents" and "Family" text lines could be removed to
       free some vertical space
- If person is married, doesn't show the relationship type,
  but the corresponding event (more space saved)

Steve's diagram doesn't show other information for the parents
except name.  I thought for a while about that and it might actually
be better because leaving the other information out makes the
view clearer.

If person switching is fast, one could easily switch between parents
and children to see the detailed information with active person.  Also,
the closer the links are to each other, the easier the switching is (mouse
needs to be moved less).

I think the absolutely necessary information in the family view are:
- Active person information / events
- Relationship information / events, per each spouse
- Birth and gender information for each children
- Names of parents

Less relevant information:
- Other than relationship information about spouses
  (events like birth etc.)
- Other information about children
- Names of active person's siblings
- More information about parents

What opinions about this the others have?
What information is essential in the family view and what is less relevant?


        - Eero


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Re: Latest screenshot of the FamilyView

Steve Hall-4
In reply to this post by Don Allingham
From: Don Allingham, Jan 5, 2006 2:05 PM
>
> http://developers.gramps-project.org/show_image.php?id=12

Good developments!

Four questions:

1. Does the main individual's summary include all events?
2. Are the "Parents" and "Family" headings redundant?
3. Is place information always included with dates when they exist?
4. Can death info be displayed for all individuals if existing?


--
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Re: Latest screenshot of the FamilyView

Don Allingham
In reply to this post by Eero Tamminen-3
Eero Tamminen wrote:
> I liked Steve's proposal a lot about and although your implemenation
> is moving to same direction, I think it Steve's latest mockup has still
> some advantages:

Well, most of the changes were in response to Steve's proposal.

> - Active person is highlighted

This is a GTK issue. I haven't worked it out yet to see if it is possible.

> - More "logical" that parents are above active person

Except you get into the problem of what happens with multiple parents
and large numbers of siblings. At that point, the active person is
pushed off the screen, requiring scrolling to see the active person.

The form also tries to follow a standard Family Group Chart approach.

>   -> "Parents" and "Family" text lines could be removed to
>        free some vertical space

I don't have any strong feelings one way or another on this. I have no
problem removing these. I think it would be cleaner without them.

> - If person is married, doesn't show the relationship type,
>   but the corresponding event (more space saved)

I'll change this.

>
> Steve's diagram doesn't show other information for the parents
> except name.  I thought for a while about that and it might actually
> be better because leaving the other information out makes the
> view clearer.

I will probably put some level of detail options, to allow this to be
user selectable.

> If person switching is fast, one could easily switch between parents
> and children to see the detailed information with active person.  Also,
> the closer the links are to each other, the easier the switching is (mouse
> needs to be moved less).

Person switching is extremely fast right now. The more information we
add, the slower it will get.

> I think the absolutely necessary information in the family view are:
> - Active person information / events
> - Relationship information / events, per each spouse
> - Birth and gender information for each children
> - Names of parents

Remember, this is a Family (or Relationship) view, not a report. Full
information is only a click away on any person on the entire form. That
is why I've limited information to only birth, death, and marriage
information. If you want more, the click on the edit button. The new
Edit Person dialog has all events on the first tab.

>
> Less relevant information:
> - Other than relationship information about spouses
>   (events like birth etc.)
> - Other information about children
> - Names of active person's siblings
> - More information about parents
>
> What opinions about this the others have?
> What information is essential in the family view and what is less relevant?
>
>
> - Eero
>



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Re: Latest screenshot of the FamilyView

Don Allingham
In reply to this post by Steve Hall-4
Steve Hall wrote:
>
> Four questions:
>
> 1. Does the main individual's summary include all events?

No, right now I've limited it to just birth and death information. All
other information is just a click a way. By including only this
information, the screen usually will not require scrolling to see all
the information.

> 2. Are the "Parents" and "Family" headings redundant?

Yes. I will remove them.

> 3. Is place information always included with dates when they exist?

I originally did this, but the problem was that the information scrolled
off the screen, or had to be broken into multiple lines. I decided that
since what we were trying to represent relationships here, that we
shouldn't allow the details to obscure the relationships.

> 4. Can death info be displayed for all individuals if existing?

Yes. The screenshot does not show that, but it is displayed when it exists.

Don



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Re: Latest screenshot of the FamilyView

Steve Hall-4
In reply to this post by Don Allingham
From: Don Allingham, Jan 5, 2006 4:07 PM
>
> I plan to make the viewing of childrend and siblings optional. One
> way is to use an "expander", where the list would expand when
> clicked. The other way would be to allow a setting under the View
> menu and/or context menu.
>
>    X  View Children
>    X  View Siblings
>    X  View Details

There is one subtlety about the design I hope we can address.

When looking at Family View, it is helpful to see full/complete info
for individual and spouse, but only birth/death info for children.
Actually, we might refine that further, but for this dicussion let's
assume that is the design.

This is because complete information (X View Details) is too lengthy
to be shown on one screen, but having not enough (_ View Details)
makes it equally difficult to do the fundamental comparisons that
Family View is most useful for.

Often there are multiple families with similar names. In most cases,
it is a set of brothers that themselves have families. They each elect
to name children after themselves and their father, and they all live
in the same town. It is not unusual to have 30 grandchildren, five
each are named some variation of John, George, Peter, and Henry. (Of
course the girls are all named Catherine, Mary and Anne.) Then each of
the grandchildren follow suit.

The only reliable way quickly ensure new information is being
attributed to the correct person is to verify both the parent and the
grandparent and to bounce around the brothers a few time to make sure
his child/grandchild is the one in question. Family view is a perfect
tool, but only if it displays enough information to compare relevant
facts. If I see a set of children born in Raccoon Gulch and another
born in Bear Hollow, it helps me to make critical connections and
avoid stupid mistakes when I'm looking through the Raccoon Gulch
cemetery index.

However, overkill also has obvious troubles. Not only can we not fit
all this on one screen, but having to sift through too much data hides
these connections.

So, the usefulness of Family View is particularly to see together on
one screen all the information that connects a family together and
overview why it is that way. For example, a child's military record
doesn't usually tie him to his father so it does not belong on family
view.* However the father's military record may indicate why one child
was born in Germany, why he married a French woman, or why he had no
children for three years. So most parental facts help us understand
the child, but not vice-versa.

Finally, one further point implied with this strategy is that both
individual and spouse's complete events be shown at the same time.
Having to toggle between the two to compare their information is
troublesome, especially since we usually try to understand children in
the context of their parents.

Sorry for the long paragraphs, I'm a terrible writer.


* If it somehow did, I would argue that the story would require more
  than simple facts, and need to be explained beyond, such as in a
  note section.


--
Steve Hall  [ digitect mindspring com ]





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Re: Latest screenshot of the FamilyView

Steve Hall-4
In reply to this post by Don Allingham
From: Don Allingham, Jan 5, 2006 4:46 PM

> Steve Hall wrote:
> >
> > Four questions:
> >
> > 1. Does the main individual's summary include all events?
>
> No, right now I've limited it to just birth and death information.
> All other information is just a click a way. By including only this
> information, the screen usually will not require scrolling to see
> all the information.

I addressed this in the previous response, and I do think with some
iterations we can all agree to a good screen. (Like the hyperlink
approach--it solved the confusion trying to compose one with text
input boxes.)

> > 3. Is place information always included with dates when they
> >    exist?
>
> I originally did this, but the problem was that the information
> scrolled off the screen, or had to be broken into multiple lines. I
> decided that since what we were trying to represent relationships
> here, that we shouldn't allow the details to obscure the
> relationships.

I agree that no fact should be multi-lined. But what if we
automatically shorten place names to fit the user's display width with
an algorithm which produced results like:

  New Town with Township and County, Pennsylvania, United States of America
  New Town with Township and County, Pennsylvania, USA
  New Town with Township and County, PA, USA
  New Town with Township and County, PA
  New Town with Township and Co..., PA
  New Town with Towns..., PA
  New Town w..., PA  [shortest truncated has 10 chars min.]
  PA

At least in the US, state is more helpful to display than town in
instances where the name has to be shortened.

For dates, it is very standard to abbreviate the month names to three
letters:

  31 Jan 2002
  Jan. 31, 2002

And by using common abbreviations for facts, it should be possible for
a user on 1024x768 to see helpful info for most individuals.

Ok, so I've been learning Python. If I wrote a function/class that did
name shortening, would that help out? What fields does Gramps use that
I could use as arguments? (I assume we want to be smart about the
pieces, not just take the entire concatenated place name.)


--
Steve Hall  [ digitect mindspring com ]





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Re: Latest screenshot of the FamilyView

Julio Sánchez-2
In reply to this post by Don Allingham
2006/1/5, Don Allingham <[hidden email]>:

> Steve Hall wrote:
> >
> > Four questions:
> >
> > 1. Does the main individual's summary include all events?
>
> No, right now I've limited it to just birth and death information. All
> other information is just a click a way. By including only this
> information, the screen usually will not require scrolling to see all
> the information.

Showing christening or burial instead of birth or death when the
latter is not available would help a lot.  Otherwise we are forced to
add bogus events just to help navigating, as it is very common having
just the former instead of the latter.

By the way, I miss a link to the family edit view.

Julio


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Re: Latest screenshot of the FamilyView

Don Allingham
On Fri, 2006-01-06 at 09:12 +0100, Julio Sanchez wrote:
> By the way, I miss a link to the family edit view.
>
> Julio
>

This is because of two things:

1) The view isn't finished yet
2) We don't have a family edit dialog yet.

This is still a work in progress :-)

Don

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Re: Latest screenshot of the FamilyView

John Stoffel
In reply to this post by Don Allingham

Don> http://developers.gramps-project.org/show_image.php?id=12

Again, I don't like the tons of wasted white space in this display.
And why aren't parents above the person, with kids below?  And then
you could have the spouse (spices? :-) off to the side.  A three
generation display all laid out nicely.

...


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Re: Latest screenshot of the FamilyView

John Stoffel
In reply to this post by Don Allingham
>>>>> "Don" == Don Allingham <[hidden email]> writes:

>> - More "logical" that parents are above active person

Don> Except you get into the problem of what happens with multiple
Don> parents and large numbers of siblings. At that point, the active
Don> person is pushed off the screen, requiring scrolling to see the
Don> active person.

So don't show siblings.  You can't add them directly, they are added
to the family of the parent's, not the family of the active person,
right?

Don> The form also tries to follow a standard Family Group Chart approach.

Don> Remember, this is a Family (or Relationship) view, not a
Don> report. Full information is only a click away on any person on
Don> the entire form. That is why I've limited information to only
Don> birth, death, and marriage information. If you want more, the
Don> click on the edit button. The new Edit Person dialog has all
Don> events on the first tab.

Right, so make it easier to move around the family tree, and then the
viewing of siblings isn't a problem any more.  You just pop up a
level, look at the kids, select the one you want, and go back down.
Two mouse clicks, and it keeps the display focused on the active
person and their immediate ancestors/descendants.

John


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Re: Latest screenshot of the FamilyView

Eero Tamminen-3
In reply to this post by Steve Hall-4
Hi,

On Friday 06 January 2006 02:34, Steve Hall wrote:

> > > 3. Is place information always included with dates when they
> > >    exist?
> >
> > I originally did this, but the problem was that the information
> > scrolled off the screen, or had to be broken into multiple lines. I
> > decided that since what we were trying to represent relationships
> > here, that we shouldn't allow the details to obscure the
> > relationships.
>
> I agree that no fact should be multi-lined. But what if we
> automatically shorten place names to fit the user's display width with
> an algorithm which produced results like:
>
>   New Town with Township and County, Pennsylvania, United States of
> America
>   New Town with Township and County, Pennsylvania, USA
>   New Town with Township and County, PA, USA
>   New Town with Township and County, PA
>   New Town with Township and Co..., PA
>   New Town with Towns..., PA
>   New Town w..., PA  [shortest truncated has 10 chars min.]
>   PA
>
> At least in the US, state is more helpful to display than town in
> instances where the name has to be shortened.

I think this depends on what/how one is doing the genealogy research.
E.g. if one is concentrating to families within a certain area, showing
state is not very useful.


> For dates, it is very standard to abbreviate the month names to three
> letters:
>
>   31 Jan 2002
>   Jan. 31, 2002

These should come from the locale.  It  provides also shortened month names.


> And by using common abbreviations for facts, it should be possible for
> a user on 1024x768 to see helpful info for most individuals.
>
> Ok, so I've been learning Python. If I wrote a function/class that did
> name shortening, would that help out? What fields does Gramps use that
> I could use as arguments? (I assume we want to be smart about the
> pieces, not just take the entire concatenated place name.)

Pango can ellipsize (use "...") also from the middle of the string.
Maybe it could be made a user configuration option (ellipsize locations
from: beginning/middle/end)?  :-)


        - Eero


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