Locations: "at" vs "in"

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Locations: "at" vs "in"

Martin Steer-2
Gramps' display uses "in" for locations whereas the narr. web page uses
"at". This bugs me a little bit, so I thought that I'd file a bug
report, suggesting "at" as preferable. Do other native English speakers
have a preference?

he died at Australia
he died at Port Philip Bay
he died at Sydney
he died at 28 Chisholm St

he died in Australia
he died in Port Philip Bay
he died in Sydney
he died in 28 Chisholm St

--
Martin

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Re: Locations: "at" vs "in"

OldAl
Hi Martin,

You kidding, are you not?  When I die, it will be in Australia (probably), but
(almost) certainly not at Australia.

If I died sailing to Australia when I  was about to enter Sydney Heads, it
could be said that I died at the doorway to the biggest city in Australia.

Native or not, you (may) die in Australia, surely not at Australia.

I love such weird discussions... Enjoy!

OldAl.

On Sun, 30 Nov 2008 16:50:19 Martin Steer wrote:

> Gramps' display uses "in" for locations whereas the narr. web page uses
> "at". This bugs me a little bit, so I thought that I'd file a bug
> report, suggesting "at" as preferable. Do other native English speakers
> have a preference?
>
> he died at Australia
> he died at Port Philip Bay
> he died at Sydney
> he died at 28 Chisholm St
>
> he died in Australia
> he died in Port Philip Bay
> he died in Sydney
> he died in 28 Chisholm St
>
> --
> Martin
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win
> great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere
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Re: Locations: "at" vs "in"

John Rye
In reply to this post by Martin Steer-2
On Sun, 30 Nov 2008 16:50:19 +1100
Martin Steer wrote:

> Gramps' display uses "in" for locations whereas the narr. web page uses
> "at". This bugs me a little bit, so I thought that I'd file a bug
> report, suggesting "at" as preferable. Do other native English speakers
> have a preference?
>
> he died at Australia
> he died at Port Philip Bay
> he died at Sydney
> he died at 28 Chisholm St
>
> he died in Australia
> he died in Port Philip Bay
> he died in Sydney
> he died in 28 Chisholm St

Normal English usage would be a mix of both so that:

he died in Australia
he died at Port Philip Bay
he died in Sydney
he died at 28 Chisholm St

I imagine this is hardcoded in Gramps but could perhaps be a selectable
option at the time if entering the data?

John (New Zealand)

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Re: Locations: "at" vs "in"

Espen Berg-2
2008/11/30 John Rye <[hidden email]>:

> On Sun, 30 Nov 2008 16:50:19 +1100
> Martin Steer wrote:
>
>> Gramps' display uses "in" for locations whereas the narr. web page uses
>> "at". This bugs me a little bit, so I thought that I'd file a bug
>> report, suggesting "at" as preferable. Do other native English speakers
>> have a preference?
>>
>> he died at Australia
>> he died at Port Philip Bay
>> he died at Sydney
>> he died at 28 Chisholm St
>>
>> he died in Australia
>> he died in Port Philip Bay
>> he died in Sydney
>> he died in 28 Chisholm St
>
> Normal English usage would be a mix of both so that:
>
> he died in Australia
> he died at Port Philip Bay
> he died in Sydney
> he died at 28 Chisholm St
>
> I imagine this is hardcoded in Gramps but could perhaps be a selectable
> option at the time if entering the data?


Hi!
The most convenient would probably be to have an extra text entry (or
preferably a combo box) with a selection of place prepositions (by,
in, at etc).  We have excactly the same issue in Norewgian, so such a
feature would be very much appreciated.  I guess it would impose some
work to add support for this in the database though.  What do you core
developers think of this?


Espen

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Re: Locations: "at" vs "in"

Martin Steer-2
In reply to this post by John Rye
John Rye <[hidden email]> writes:

>
> Normal English usage would be a mix of both so that:
>
> he died in Australia
> he died at Port Philip Bay
> he died in Sydney
> he died at 28 Chisholm St
>

Yes. In fact we probably don't want either of them. E.g. "died 1825, Port
Philip Bay" is adequate.

--
Martin

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Re: Locations: "at" vs "in"

Brad Rogers
On Sun, 30 Nov 2008 18:24:03 +1100
Martin Steer <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Martin,

> John Rye <[hidden email]> writes:
> > he died in Australia
> > he died at Port Philip Bay
> > he died in Sydney
> > he died at 28 Chisholm St
> Yes. In fact we probably don't want either of them. E.g. "died 1825,
> Port Philip Bay" is adequate.

I would probably use "in" where John used "at" for 'Port Philip Bay',
assuming it's a suburb of Sydney.  I'd use "on" if, for example, the
death occured aboard a vessel that was on the bay.  Of course, if he
drowned in the bay, we're back to "in" again.

Doncha juss luv Inglish?   :-)

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Re: Locations: "at" vs "in"

Brian Matherly
In reply to this post by Espen Berg-2
> >> Gramps' display uses "in" for
> locations whereas the narr. web page uses
> >> "at". This bugs me a little bit, so I
> thought that I'd file a bug
> >> report, suggesting "at" as preferable.
> Do other native English speakers
> >> have a preference?


> The most convenient would probably be to have an extra text
> entry (or
> preferably a combo box) with a selection of place
> prepositions (by,
> in, at etc).  We have excactly the same issue in Norewgian,
> so such a
> feature would be very much appreciated.  I guess it would
> impose some
> work to add support for this in the database though.  What
> do you core
> developers think of this?

It's a neat idea. It would certainly add some flexibility. But not all languages work the same. So I think it would make translation impossible.

~Brian

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Re: Locations: "at" vs "in"

Ant Astley
In reply to this post by Martin Steer-2
Hello Martin,

  Speaking from England, I'd say:
He died in Australia or Sydney.
He died at Port Philip Bay if it was a place;
He died in Port Philip Bay if he drowned there.
He died at 28 Chisholm Street - one lives at an address not in it.

  English as she is spoke, eh!

Regards Ant

.

**  Withdraw from the EU!  **
* No identity cards either! *

.
.

On Sun, 30 Nov 2008, Martin Steer wrote:

> Gramps' display uses "in" for locations whereas the narr. web page uses
> "at". This bugs me a little bit, so I thought that I'd file a bug
> report, suggesting "at" as preferable. Do other native English speakers
> have a preference?
>
> he died at Australia
> he died at Port Philip Bay
> he died at Sydney
> he died at 28 Chisholm St
>
> he died in Australia
> he died in Port Philip Bay
> he died in Sydney
> he died in 28 Chisholm St
>
> --
> Martin
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge
> Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win great prizes
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> _______________________________________________
> Gramps-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
>

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Re: Locations: "at" vs "in"

Stéphane Charette-2
> He died at Port Philip Bay if it was a place;
> He died in Port Philip Bay if he drowned there.

Thing is, he drowned in his bathtub.  Is that "at" or "in" Port Philip Bay?

>  English as she is spoke, eh!

Ah!  A Canadian at heart, eh?  :)

</humour>

Stéphane

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Re: Locations: "at" vs "in"

OldAl
In reply to this post by Ant Astley
Hai,

Yay -

if I die at home, it sure will be here at home.
If I die in a retirement village or in an old peoples home, that's in a home
(of sorts).  

You can die at Port Phillip Bay, but if you die in Sydney Harbour, it will be
in a harbour.  That's because a sailing ship aims its stern at a port, but is
towed into a harbour, me thinks.

If I die sailing, it will be without - "at" or "in" -- just "die die finish".

It is all to do with the fact English language freely borrows expressions,
often from the days when "Britania ruled the waves".

And would you know why my office is so small, that you could not swing a cat
in it? (Who in blue heavens would swing a miouwing  cat??? Would you like to
know where this kind of "cat" comes from?).  All this discussion is a lot of
phurphy.  (Would you like to know where "phurphy" comes from? Do you know
what a phurphy means?)

That's English as she is spoke, or is it the international language - broken
English?   :)

OldAl.

On Mon, 1 Dec 2008 08:22:51 Ant Astley wrote:

> Hello Martin,
>
>   Speaking from England, I'd say:
> He died in Australia or Sydney.
> He died at Port Philip Bay if it was a place;
> He died in Port Philip Bay if he drowned there.
> He died at 28 Chisholm Street - one lives at an address not in it.
>
>   English as she is spoke, eh!
>
> Regards Ant
>
> .
>
> **  Withdraw from the EU!  **
> * No identity cards either! *
>
> .
> .
>
> On Sun, 30 Nov 2008, Martin Steer wrote:
> > Gramps' display uses "in" for locations whereas the narr. web page uses
> > "at". This bugs me a little bit, so I thought that I'd file a bug
> > report, suggesting "at" as preferable. Do other native English speakers
> > have a preference?
> >
> > he died at Australia
> > he died at Port Philip Bay
> > he died at Sydney
> > he died at 28 Chisholm St
> >
> > he died in Australia
> > he died in Port Philip Bay
> > he died in Sydney
> > he died in 28 Chisholm St
> >
> > --
> > Martin
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's
> > challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK &
> > win great prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event
> > anywhere in the world
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> > _______________________________________________
> > Gramps-users mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Locations: "at" vs "in"

John Rye
In reply to this post by Stéphane Charette-2
On Sun, 30 Nov 2008 13:56:40 -0800
Stéphane Charette wrote:

> > He died at Port Philip Bay if it was a place;
> > He died in Port Philip Bay if he drowned there.
>
> Thing is, he drowned in his bathtub.  Is that "at" or "in" Port Philip Bay?

Nah! - That would be 'near' Port Philip Bay :-)
>
> >  English as she is spoke, eh!

John (New Zealand)

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Re: Locations: "at" vs "in"

Ken B.
In reply to this post by OldAl
Kia ora,

Algis Kabaila wrote:
Hai,

Yay - 

if I die at home, it sure will be here at home.
If I die in a retirement village or in an old peoples home, that's in a home 
(of sorts).  
  
I agree with that.
You can die at Port Phillip Bay, but if you die in Sydney Harbour, it will be 
in a harbour.  That's because a sailing ship aims its stern at a port, but is 
towed into a harbour, me thinks.
  
If you die "at" Port Phillip Bay it would be on the land surrounding the bay, If you die "in" Port Phillip Bay then you would be in the water.
If I die sailing, it will be without - "at" or "in" -- just "die die finish".
  
If you died while sailing then you would die "on" some yacht "in" Port Phillip Bay, or "on" some yacht "at" sea.

Ken.
It is all to do with the fact English language freely borrows expressions, 
often from the days when "Britania ruled the waves".

And would you know why my office is so small, that you could not swing a cat 
in it? (Who in blue heavens would swing a miouwing  cat??? Would you like to 
know where this kind of "cat" comes from?).  All this discussion is a lot of 
phurphy.  (Would you like to know where "phurphy" comes from? Do you know 
what a phurphy means?)

That's English as she is spoke, or is it the international language - broken 
English?   :)

OldAl.

On Mon, 1 Dec 2008 08:22:51 Ant Astley wrote:
  
Hello Martin,

  Speaking from England, I'd say:
He died in Australia or Sydney.
He died at Port Philip Bay if it was a place;
He died in Port Philip Bay if he drowned there.
He died at 28 Chisholm Street - one lives at an address not in it.

  English as she is spoke, eh!

Regards Ant

.

**  Withdraw from the EU!  **
* No identity cards either! *

.
.

On Sun, 30 Nov 2008, Martin Steer wrote:
    
Gramps' display uses "in" for locations whereas the narr. web page uses
"at". This bugs me a little bit, so I thought that I'd file a bug
report, suggesting "at" as preferable. Do other native English speakers
have a preference?

he died at Australia
he died at Port Philip Bay
he died at Sydney
he died at 28 Chisholm St

he died in Australia
he died in Port Philip Bay
he died in Sydney
he died in 28 Chisholm St

--
Martin

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Re: Locations: "at" vs "in"

OldAl
In reply to this post by Brian Matherly
Brian,

On Mon, 1 Dec 2008 07:56:35 Brian Matherly wrote:

> > >> Gramps' display uses "in" for
> >
> > locations whereas the narr. web page uses
> >
> > >> "at". This bugs me a little bit, so I
> >
> > thought that I'd file a bug
> >
> > >> report, suggesting "at" as preferable.
> >
> > Do other native English speakers
> >
> > >> have a preference?
> >
> > The most convenient would probably be to have an extra text
> > entry (or
> > preferably a combo box) with a selection of place
> > prepositions (by,
> > in, at etc).  We have excactly the same issue in Norewgian,
> > so such a
> > feature would be very much appreciated.  I guess it would
> > impose some
> > work to add support for this in the database though.  What
> > do you core
> > developers think of this?
>
> It's a neat idea. It would certainly add some flexibility. But not all
> languages work the same. So I think it would make translation impossible.
>
> ~Brian

Absolutely right, Brian.  Germanic (Norwegian, Swedish, English, German)
languages keep the the name ends unchanged, regardless of context.  

Many non-Germanic Indo-European languages do change their endings. This is
true of Baltic (viz. in Lithuanian my son's surname would be Kabaila, my
daughter's surname would be Kabailaitė, my wife's Kabailienė. And I would
live in "Kabailos" [not Kabaila's!]  home.  Something very similar happens in
Slavonic languages - Polish, Ukrainian, Russian, Croatian etc.).

The only serious answer to this question would be to allow a fussy user to do
all such changes in a hand-typed text, particularly since the Latin 1 simply
does not have all the phonetic characters, required by some languages. And,
of course, it does not have the Cyrillic, Hebrew, Korean, Chinese scripts,
either).  As it stands, It is very intelligent of gramps to enable the
substitutions in all often used scripts.  Machine translations so far had
only a very limited success.

It is ingenious for utf-8 to assign a number for each  character of all of the
above and more. Of course, the glyphs for each one of those numbers can and
often do have a large number of permutations.

It is very much a question of personal preference. And it is impossible to
satisfy all of them all of the time.

OldAl.

>
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Re: Locations: "at" vs "in"

Paul Blair
My own preference would be "on"....  :-)

Paul

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Algis Kabaila [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Monday, 1 December 2008 9:31am
> To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] Locations: "at" vs "in"
>
> Brian,
>
> On Mon, 1 Dec 2008 07:56:35 Brian Matherly wrote:
> > > >> Gramps' display uses "in" for
> > >
> > > locations whereas the narr. web page uses
> > >
> > > >> "at". This bugs me a little bit, so I
> > >
> > > thought that I'd file a bug
> > >
> > > >> report, suggesting "at" as preferable.
> > >
> > > Do other native English speakers
> > >
> > > >> have a preference?
> > >
> > > The most convenient would probably be to have an extra text
> > > entry (or
> > > preferably a combo box) with a selection of place
> > > prepositions (by,
> > > in, at etc).  We have excactly the same issue in Norewgian,
> > > so such a
> > > feature would be very much appreciated.  I guess it would
> > > impose some
> > > work to add support for this in the database though.  What
> > > do you core
> > > developers think of this?
> >
> > It's a neat idea. It would certainly add some flexibility. But not
> all
> > languages work the same. So I think it would make translation
> impossible.
> >
> > ~Brian
>
> Absolutely right, Brian.  Germanic (Norwegian, Swedish, English,
> German)
> languages keep the the name ends unchanged, regardless of context.
>
> Many non-Germanic Indo-European languages do change their endings. This
> is
> true of Baltic (viz. in Lithuanian my son's surname would be Kabaila,
> my
> daughter's surname would be Kabailaitė, my wife's Kabailienė. And I
> would
> live in "Kabailos" [not Kabaila's!]  home.  Something very similar
> happens in
> Slavonic languages - Polish, Ukrainian, Russian, Croatian etc.).
>
> The only serious answer to this question would be to allow a fussy user
> to do
> all such changes in a hand-typed text, particularly since the Latin 1
> simply
> does not have all the phonetic characters, required by some languages.
> And,
> of course, it does not have the Cyrillic, Hebrew, Korean, Chinese
> scripts,
> either).  As it stands, It is very intelligent of gramps to enable the
> substitutions in all often used scripts.  Machine translations so far
> had
> only a very limited success.
>
> It is ingenious for utf-8 to assign a number for each  character of all
> of the
> above and more. Of course, the glyphs for each one of those numbers can
> and
> often do have a large number of permutations.
>
> It is very much a question of personal preference. And it is impossible
> to
> satisfy all of them all of the time.
>
> OldAl.
>
> >
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Re: Locations: "at" vs "in"

OldAl
In reply to this post by Ken B.
On Mon, 1 Dec 2008 09:26:32 Ken B wrote:

> Kia ora,
>
> Algis Kabaila wrote:
> > Hai,
> >
> > Yay -
> >
> > if I die at home, it sure will be here at home.
> > If I die in a retirement village or in an old peoples home, that's in a
> > home (of sorts).
>
> I agree with that.
>
> > You can die at Port Phillip Bay, but if you die in Sydney Harbour, it
> > will be in a harbour.  That's because a sailing ship aims its stern at a
> > port, but is towed into a harbour, me thinks.
>
> If you die "at" Port Phillip Bay it would be on the land surrounding the
> bay, If you die "in" Port Phillip Bay then you would be in the water.
>

Come, come now.  You can be at bay on the land or on the boat (coming to
land).  Been there, done that and have photos to prove it.

OldAl.

> > If I die sailing, it will be without - "at" or "in" -- just "die die
> > finish".
>
> If you died while sailing then you would die "on" some yacht "in" Port
> Phillip Bay, or "on" some yacht "at" sea.
>
> Ken.
>
> > It is all to do with the fact English language freely borrows
> > expressions, often from the days when "Britania ruled the waves".
> >
> > And would you know why my office is so small, that you could not swing a
> > cat in it? (Who in blue heavens would swing a miouwing  cat??? Would you
> > like to know where this kind of "cat" comes from?).  All this discussion
> > is a lot of phurphy.  (Would you like to know where "phurphy" comes from?
> > Do you know what a phurphy means?)
> >
> > That's English as she is spoke, or is it the international language -
> > broken English?   :)
> >
> > OldAl.
> >
> > On Mon, 1 Dec 2008 08:22:51 Ant Astley wrote:
> >> Hello Martin,
> >>
> >>   Speaking from England, I'd say:
> >> He died in Australia or Sydney.
> >> He died at Port Philip Bay if it was a place;
> >> He died in Port Philip Bay if he drowned there.
> >> He died at 28 Chisholm Street - one lives at an address not in it.
> >>
> >>   English as she is spoke, eh!
> >>
> >> Regards Ant
> >>
> >> .
> >>
> >> **  Withdraw from the EU!  **
> >> * No identity cards either! *
> >>
> >> .
> >> .
> >>
> >> On Sun, 30 Nov 2008, Martin Steer wrote:
> >>> Gramps' display uses "in" for locations whereas the narr. web page uses
> >>> "at". This bugs me a little bit, so I thought that I'd file a bug
> >>> report, suggesting "at" as preferable. Do other native English speakers
> >>> have a preference?
> >>>
> >>> he died at Australia
> >>> he died at Port Philip Bay
> >>> he died at Sydney
> >>> he died at 28 Chisholm St
> >>>
> >>> he died in Australia
> >>> he died in Port Philip Bay
> >>> he died in Sydney
> >>> he died in 28 Chisholm St
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Martin
> >>>
> >>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>-- This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's
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> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
> >>
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--
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http://akabaila.pcug.org.au/StructuralAnalysis/

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Re: Locations: "at" vs "in"

Martin Steer-2
In reply to this post by Martin Steer-2

Brian Matherly <[hidden email]> writes:

>> >> Gramps' display uses "in" for
>> locations whereas the narr. web page uses
>> >> "at". This bugs me a little bit, so I
>> thought that I'd file a bug
>> >> report, suggesting "at" as preferable.
>> Do other native English speakers
>> >> have a preference?
>
>
>> The most convenient would probably be to have an extra text
>> entry (or
>> preferably a combo box) with a selection of place
>> prepositions (by,
>> in, at etc).  We have excactly the same issue in Norewgian,
>> so such a
>> feature would be very much appreciated.  I guess it would
>> impose some
>> work to add support for this in the database though.  What
>> do you core
>> developers think of this?
>
> It's a neat idea. It would certainly add some flexibility. But not all
> languages work the same. So I think it would make translation
> impossible.
>

The problem is specific to some languages which use prepositions to
indicate place, such as English. If a language uses a different method,
e.g. nominal case (a change in the form of a placename), translation
isn't a matter of simply putting something in the slot vacated by the
English preposition. What I'm saying is that issues of translation
aren't an obstacle to getting this right for English.

I propose that for English we drop the preposition altogether: "died
1946, New York". This is the approach of phpgedview, for example. No
complication of the GUI, no additional translation problems.

I appreciate that gramps favours a narrative style for its web pages,
but narrative at the cost of oddity is no gain. As OldAl pointed out,
"died at Australia" is seriously odd, but that's what the webpage will
give you now, whereas gramps' own display will give you "died in
Australia" and "died in 28 Chisholm St". So neither interface can get it
right.

I apologise for asking for the preferences of "native English speakers".
This sounds rather rude. I was wondering about native-speaker intuitions
of the correctness of "at" as a generic location marker, but didn't
properly formulate the question.

--
Martin

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Re: Locations: "at" vs "in"

Gerald Britton-2
Prepositions are tricky. Do you stand in line or on line? Do you shop
at the weekend or on the weekend? Are sick folk at the hospital or in
hospital?  The usage varies with locale and context and getting it
right is like nailing jelly to a tree.

I would be happy to see prepositions dropped from narrative reports.



On 12/1/08, Martin Steer <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Brian Matherly <[hidden email]> writes:
>
>>> >> Gramps' display uses "in" for
>>> locations whereas the narr. web page uses
>>> >> "at". This bugs me a little bit, so I
>>> thought that I'd file a bug
>>> >> report, suggesting "at" as preferable.
>>> Do other native English speakers
>>> >> have a preference?
>>
>>
>>> The most convenient would probably be to have an extra text
>>> entry (or
>>> preferably a combo box) with a selection of place
>>> prepositions (by,
>>> in, at etc).  We have excactly the same issue in Norewgian,
>>> so such a
>>> feature would be very much appreciated.  I guess it would
>>> impose some
>>> work to add support for this in the database though.  What
>>> do you core
>>> developers think of this?
>>
>> It's a neat idea. It would certainly add some flexibility. But not all
>> languages work the same. So I think it would make translation
>> impossible.
>>
>
> The problem is specific to some languages which use prepositions to
> indicate place, such as English. If a language uses a different method,
> e.g. nominal case (a change in the form of a placename), translation
> isn't a matter of simply putting something in the slot vacated by the
> English preposition. What I'm saying is that issues of translation
> aren't an obstacle to getting this right for English.
>
> I propose that for English we drop the preposition altogether: "died
> 1946, New York". This is the approach of phpgedview, for example. No
> complication of the GUI, no additional translation problems.
>
> I appreciate that gramps favours a narrative style for its web pages,
> but narrative at the cost of oddity is no gain. As OldAl pointed out,
> "died at Australia" is seriously odd, but that's what the webpage will
> give you now, whereas gramps' own display will give you "died in
> Australia" and "died in 28 Chisholm St". So neither interface can get it
> right.
>
> I apologise for asking for the preferences of "native English speakers".
> This sounds rather rude. I was wondering about native-speaker intuitions
> of the correctness of "at" as a generic location marker, but didn't
> properly formulate the question.
>
> --
> Martin
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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--
Sent from my mobile device

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Re: Locations: "at" vs "in"

Eero Tamminen-3
Hi,

On Monday 01 December 2008, Gerald Britton wrote:
> Prepositions are tricky. Do you stand in line or on line? Do you shop
> at the weekend or on the weekend? Are sick folk at the hospital or in
> hospital?  The usage varies with locale and context and getting it
> right is like nailing jelly to a tree.
>
> I would be happy to see prepositions dropped from narrative reports.

I would be happy to see prepositions die in Gramps as they make it
impossible to translate Gramps correctly into finnish.

In finnish language the preposition is added at the end of the word and
what it looks like depends on into which vowels and consonants the word
ends with.  In some cases the end of word itself should be changed!

This is fine as long the word is known at translation time, but if it's
known only at run time like in the hundred(s) of cases[1] in current
Gramps .pot files, the translation is broken (understandable, but in no
way good or correct finnish).

[1]  similar to "son of %(mother)s, died in %(someplace)s".


        - Eero

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Re: Locations: "at" vs "in"

OldAl
On Tue, 2 Dec 2008 07:37:57 Eero Tamminen wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Monday 01 December 2008, Gerald Britton wrote:
> > Prepositions are tricky. Do you stand in line or on line? Do you shop
> > at the weekend or on the weekend? Are sick folk at the hospital or in
> > hospital?  The usage varies with locale and context and getting it
> > right is like nailing jelly to a tree.
> >
> > I would be happy to see prepositions dropped from narrative reports.
>
> I would be happy to see prepositions die in Gramps as they make it
> impossible to translate Gramps correctly into finnish.
>
> In finnish language the preposition is added at the end of the word and
> what it looks like depends on into which vowels and consonants the word
> ends with.  In some cases the end of word itself should be changed!
>
> This is fine as long the word is known at translation time, but if it's
> known only at run time like in the hundred(s) of cases[1] in current
> Gramps .pot files, the translation is broken (understandable, but in no
> way good or correct finnish).
>
> [1]  similar to "son of %(mother)s, died in %(someplace)s".

Ah, but all Finns speak such good English, no?
OldAl.

>
>
> - Eero
>
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--
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http://akabaila.pcug.org.au/StructuralAnalysis/

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Re: Locations: "at" vs "in"

Thomas Weichmann-2
In reply to this post by Gerald Britton-2
I completely agree with dropping the prepositions all together.  It reads just
fine to see:

John Doe:
Born: 03/03/1921 Buffalo, Erie, New York, USA

or even:
Born: Date: 03/03/1921 Location: Buffalo, Erie, New York, USA

There is no need to complicate things by giving the user a selection of
prepositions.  This not only unnecessarily complicated the code, but it also
makes it impossible to translate.

Tom Weichmann

On Monday 01 December 2008 07:19:34 am Gerald Britton wrote:

> Prepositions are tricky. Do you stand in line or on line? Do you shop
> at the weekend or on the weekend? Are sick folk at the hospital or in
> hospital?  The usage varies with locale and context and getting it
> right is like nailing jelly to a tree.
>
> I would be happy to see prepositions dropped from narrative reports.
>
> On 12/1/08, Martin Steer <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Brian Matherly <[hidden email]> writes:
> >>> >> Gramps' display uses "in" for
> >>>
> >>> locations whereas the narr. web page uses
> >>>
> >>> >> "at". This bugs me a little bit, so I
> >>>
> >>> thought that I'd file a bug
> >>>
> >>> >> report, suggesting "at" as preferable.
> >>>
> >>> Do other native English speakers
> >>>
> >>> >> have a preference?
> >>>
> >>> The most convenient would probably be to have an extra text
> >>> entry (or
> >>> preferably a combo box) with a selection of place
> >>> prepositions (by,
> >>> in, at etc).  We have excactly the same issue in Norewgian,
> >>> so such a
> >>> feature would be very much appreciated.  I guess it would
> >>> impose some
> >>> work to add support for this in the database though.  What
> >>> do you core
> >>> developers think of this?
> >>
> >> It's a neat idea. It would certainly add some flexibility. But not all
> >> languages work the same. So I think it would make translation
> >> impossible.
> >
> > The problem is specific to some languages which use prepositions to
> > indicate place, such as English. If a language uses a different method,
> > e.g. nominal case (a change in the form of a placename), translation
> > isn't a matter of simply putting something in the slot vacated by the
> > English preposition. What I'm saying is that issues of translation
> > aren't an obstacle to getting this right for English.
> >
> > I propose that for English we drop the preposition altogether: "died
> > 1946, New York". This is the approach of phpgedview, for example. No
> > complication of the GUI, no additional translation problems.
> >
> > I appreciate that gramps favours a narrative style for its web pages,
> > but narrative at the cost of oddity is no gain. As OldAl pointed out,
> > "died at Australia" is seriously odd, but that's what the webpage will
> > give you now, whereas gramps' own display will give you "died in
> > Australia" and "died in 28 Chisholm St". So neither interface can get it
> > right.
> >
> > I apologise for asking for the preferences of "native English speakers".
> > This sounds rather rude. I was wondering about native-speaker intuitions
> > of the correctness of "at" as a generic location marker, but didn't
> > properly formulate the question.
> >
> > --
> > Martin
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's
> > challenge Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK &
> > win great prizes
> > Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the
> > world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/
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