Logging a citation

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Logging a citation

Martnal
Could someone please explain to me how I record the Repository/Source/Citation data from this?  Please assume that I have no Repository/Source/Citation data at all yet.

"England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N5C5-W2J : 30 December 2014), Thomas Loughborough, 12 Jul 1812; citing , reference ; FHL microfilm 91,091.

Thanks in advance.  I've got to the stage where I wished I'd been more diligent six months ago!  Not knowing what to do with that sort of data is stopping me recording it.

Martin

Martin, SW London

Gedmatch DNA Kit H062246.
FT-DNA Kit B388093.

Names: Loughborough and Loughbrough, (London, Hull, Pirton and Hartlepool);
Watson, (Bedlington, Jarrow & H'pool);
Ballard & Glassop (E. London); 
Leggett (Corton, Scarborough, Hartlepool); 
Young & Wilson, (Hartlepool). 

I am using GrampsAIO64-5.0.0-1 on Windows 10.
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Re: Logging a citation

Ron Johnson
I'd create:
  • a Source named "Family Search: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975", and
  • a Citation with

Note that there's 1,500 ways to skin this cat, though, and this is just one.

On 01/06/2017 08:05 AM, Martnal wrote:
Could someone please explain to me how I record the
Repository/Source/Citation data from this?  Please assume that I have no
Repository/Source/Citation data at all yet.

"England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975," database, FamilySearch
(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N5C5-W2J : 30 December 2014),
Thomas Loughborough, 12 Jul 1812; citing , reference ; FHL microfilm 91,091.

Thanks in advance.  I've got to the stage where I wished I'd been more
diligent six months ago!  Not knowing what to do with that sort of data is
stopping me recording it.

Martin

-- 
World Peace Through Nuclear Pacification

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Re: Logging a citation

Dave Scheipers
In reply to this post by Martnal
Hi Martin,

This is how I do it, others may do it differently.

Repository; FamilySearch.org
Source Title: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
Citation Date: 12 Jul 1812

As this comes from the church's record, I'd use the christening date and attach the same citation to both events. The christening record says this was the birth date.

Hope this helps, Dave

On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 9:05 AM, Martnal <[hidden email]> wrote:
Could someone please explain to me how I record the
Repository/Source/Citation data from this?  Please assume that I have no
Repository/Source/Citation data at all yet.

"England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975," database, FamilySearch
(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N5C5-W2J : 30 December 2014),
Thomas Loughborough, 12 Jul 1812; citing , reference ; FHL microfilm 91,091.

Thanks in advance.  I've got to the stage where I wished I'd been more
diligent six months ago!  Not knowing what to do with that sort of data is
stopping me recording it.

Martin



-----


Martin, SW London

I am using GRAMPS 4.2.3-1 on Windows 10.

I am researching surnames Loughborough, (London and Hartlepool), Watson, (Jarrow and Hartlepool), Ballard and Glassop (E. London), Mowbray, Pounder and Bulmer, (all Hartlepool), Leggett (Middlesborough and Prescot).
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Re: Logging a citation

Martnal
Ron, Dave, thank you for your replies.  I suppose the important this is for me to be consistent, bearing in mind I'm unlikely to ever be asked for this level of detail anyway!!

Ron, thanks, I was putting the URL in the Volume/Page field.

Dave, where do you put the URL?  You say 'Citation Note'.  Is that just a note attached to the Citation, or is there a field somewhere with that name?

It's slowly all making sense, and I look back and don't see what actually caused me a problem weeks ago.

Martin

Martin, SW London

Gedmatch DNA Kit H062246.
FT-DNA Kit B388093.

Names: Loughborough and Loughbrough, (London, Hull, Pirton and Hartlepool);
Watson, (Bedlington, Jarrow & H'pool);
Ballard & Glassop (E. London); 
Leggett (Corton, Scarborough, Hartlepool); 
Young & Wilson, (Hartlepool). 

I am using GrampsAIO64-5.0.0-1 on Windows 10.
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Re: Logging a citation

Peter (chamdo4ever)
In reply to this post by Martnal
I cite from FamilySearch.org a lot and agree with what others have
said. I use FamilySearch.org as the Repository and in your specific
case would use "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975" as the
source.

I always use the very handy "Copy" button usually in the upper left of
an entry on the FamilySearch.org page, and paste the entire contents
to the body of a citation note -- that gives you all the details of
the FamilySearch entry and often the appropriate context.

Hope that helps,

Peter

On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 9:05 AM, Martnal <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Could someone please explain to me how I record the
> Repository/Source/Citation data from this?  Please assume that I have no
> Repository/Source/Citation data at all yet.
>
> "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975," database, FamilySearch
> (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N5C5-W2J : 30 December 2014),
> Thomas Loughborough, 12 Jul 1812; citing , reference ; FHL microfilm 91,091.
>
> Thanks in advance.  I've got to the stage where I wished I'd been more
> diligent six months ago!  Not knowing what to do with that sort of data is
> stopping me recording it.
>
> Martin
>
>
>
> -----
>
>
> Martin, SW London
>
> I am using GRAMPS 4.2.3-1 on Windows 10.
>
> I am researching surnames Loughborough, (London and Hartlepool), Watson, (Jarrow and Hartlepool), Ballard and Glassop (E. London), Mowbray, Pounder and Bulmer, (all Hartlepool), Leggett (Middlesborough and Prescot).
> --
> View this message in context: http://gramps.1791082.n4.nabble.com/Logging-a-citation-tp4678404.html
> Sent from the GRAMPS - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Gramps-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
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Re: Logging a citation

Gerhard Killesreiter
In reply to this post by Martnal
Am 06.01.2017 um 15:48 schrieb Martnal:
> Ron, Dave, thank you for your replies.  I suppose the important this is for
> me to be consistent, bearing in mind I'm unlikely to ever be asked for this
> level of detail anyway!!

Just a caveat:
When I started my research, I only recorded the dates of baptisms etc.
assuming that nobody cared about the page numbers. However, when I later
decided I wanted to record the godparents, too, I had to browse the
books again, since I didn't record the pages...

So, too much detail won't hurt, the lack of detail can cost you a lot of
time.

Cheers,
Gerhard


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Re: Logging a citation

Brad Rogers
In reply to this post by Martnal
On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 06:48:44 -0800 (PST)
Martnal <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Martnal,

>me to be consistent, bearing in mind I'm unlikely to ever be asked for
>this level of detail anyway!!

How often have we looked back at stuff and thought "How on earth did I
get that?"

Having that level of details allows others to follow your proofs.
This is a 'Good Thing'™.

--
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
Age of destruction, age of oblivion
Neuromancer - Billy Idol

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Re: Logging a citation

paul womack
In reply to this post by Gerhard Killesreiter
Gerhard Killesreiter wrote:

> Am 06.01.2017 um 15:48 schrieb Martnal:
>> Ron, Dave, thank you for your replies.  I suppose the important this is for
>> me to be consistent, bearing in mind I'm unlikely to ever be asked for this
>> level of detail anyway!!
>
> Just a caveat:
> When I started my research, I only recorded the dates of baptisms etc.
> assuming that nobody cared about the page numbers. However, when I later
> decided I wanted to record the godparents, too, I had to browse the
> books again, since I didn't record the pages...
>
> So, too much detail won't hurt, the lack of detail can cost you a lot of
> time.

Yeah - if you later find a contradiction in your data/conclusions/tree and want
to re-check your original sources, you're going to want enough detail
to find those sources again.

   BugBear

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Re: Logging a citation

Simon C. Tremblay
In reply to this post by Dave Scheipers
Like Ron said, so many ways to skin this cat.

The way I do it is close to what Dave outlines here, but I would put "FHL microfilm 91,091" as the page and add the URL https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N5C5-W2J as an attribute to the citation.

Like Dave, I would create a birth and a christening event and attach the citation to both.

If the image of the item is available, I save it to a subfolder of my media folder (I have a subfolder for census, one for church birth records, one for wedding photos, etc) and add it to the gallery for the citation.

Simon


On 6 January 2017 at 09:36, Dave Scheipers <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Martin,

This is how I do it, others may do it differently.

Repository; FamilySearch.org
Source Title: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
Citation Date: 12 Jul 1812

As this comes from the church's record, I'd use the christening date and attach the same citation to both events. The christening record says this was the birth date.

Hope this helps, Dave

On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 9:05 AM, Martnal <[hidden email]> wrote:
Could someone please explain to me how I record the
Repository/Source/Citation data from this?  Please assume that I have no
Repository/Source/Citation data at all yet.

"England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975," database, FamilySearch
(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N5C5-W2J : 30 December 2014),
Thomas Loughborough, 12 Jul 1812; citing , reference ; FHL microfilm 91,091.

Thanks in advance.  I've got to the stage where I wished I'd been more
diligent six months ago!  Not knowing what to do with that sort of data is
stopping me recording it.

Martin

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Re: Logging a citation

paul womack
Simon C. Tremblay wrote:
> Like Ron said, so many ways to skin this cat.
>
> The way I do it is close to what Dave outlines here, but I would put "FHL microfilm 91,091" as the page and add the URL https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N5C5-W2J as an attribute to the citation.

Since the URL is finer granularity than the Film ID, I'd swap them, but as long as they're both recorded,
no biggy.

> Like Dave, I would create a birth and a christening event and attach the citation to both.

More generally, a "full" baptism may also provide an occupation for the father,
and a residence ("abode") for both parents; the citation would be put against all these events.

> If the image of the item is available, I save it to a subfolder of my media folder (I have a subfolder for census, one for church birth records, one for wedding photos, etc) and add it to the gallery for the citation.

Note - the wonderful "Media Verify" tool (which can detect files via their
MD5 checksum) means that you can move/rename/restructure your files any time
you like, and it will sort out the references for you AS LONG AS YOU GENERATE
THE CHECKSUMS BEFORE THE MOVE.

I lean on "Media Verify" for this a great deal (e.g. I once split a large "birth" directory
in separate Birth and Baptism sub-directories)

  BugBear


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Re: Logging a citation

Simon C. Tremblay
In reply to this post by Brad Rogers
Forgot to add to my reply, always keep in mind the purpose of proper citation: 
1 - Can you or someone looking at your work find it at a later time?
2 - Give proper attribution if someone else did most of the work

First is the most important to me, the second is the ethical way to work, really important if you intend to share your work and want it to be taken seriously. 

Nothing I hate more than to find a great information nugget without any citation.  "Trust, but verify"

Simon 



On 6 January 2017 at 10:27, Brad Rogers <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 06:48:44 -0800 (PST)
Martnal <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Martnal,

>me to be consistent, bearing in mind I'm unlikely to ever be asked for
>this level of detail anyway!!

How often have we looked back at stuff and thought "How on earth did I
get that?"

Having that level of details allows others to follow your proofs.
This is a 'Good Thing'™.

--
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
Age of destruction, age of oblivion
Neuromancer - Billy Idol

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NdK
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Re: Logging a citation

NdK
In reply to this post by paul womack
Il 06/01/2017 16:33, paul womack ha scritto:

> Yeah - if you later find a contradiction in your data/conclusions/tree and want
> to re-check your original sources, you're going to want enough detail
> to find those sources again.
For that I usually save the source image. I use FS just to search
metadata, but fetch the image from the archives' site (for Italian
National Archives, at least).
I don't remember if FS is doing something to block right-click on
images, but it would be no big problem anyway.

BYtE,
 Diego

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Re: Logging a citation

Simon C. Tremblay
In reply to this post by paul womack
I agree with you that the URL is more granular, but unless it's a "Permalink" or supplied by the site like from FamilySearch, I assume it can change.

What I'm quoting more often from FamilySearch and Ancestry are the Quebec Catholic Church records. On FamilySearch the citation offered by the site is:

"Québec, registres paroissiaux catholiques, 1621-1979," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-899D-R4R1?cc=1321742&wc=9RL2-MN1%3A21449501%2C21449502%2C21561501 : 16 July 2014), Saint-Laurent > Saint-Laurent > image 34 of 564; nos paroisses de Église Catholique, Quebec (Catholic Church parishes, Quebec).

I will use Saint-Laurent > Saint-Laurent > image 34 of 564 as the page, because starting from the collection home page https://familysearch.org/search/collection/1321742 , I can browse to the exact image.

On Ancestry, the same record 


will not give me a detailed citation so I build the page number similar to what I entered above from FamilySearch: St-Laurent > St-Laurent > 1748-1786 > page 5 of 286.  Again, that allows me to browse to the exact image from the collection home.  I don't record Ancestry URL because I'm not sure it will stay the same.

You are right, I do attach the citation to all "events" I can find in there, including father's profession, place of residency (in Quebec's church records, it often includes the parrish the people are from), godparents, witnesses, etc.  

Media Verify tool is great.  I use it a lot too. I would love if it could be more consistent with the Media Manager Utility (Extra files in the Media Verify tools are not the same as the one found by the Media Manager utility).

Using the Media Verify tool made me realise that saving the image in my Baptism folder under the name "Dubeau, Jacques - 1748-05-02 - FamilySearch.jpg" resulted in duplicate images when I added in the Burial folder the same file named "Lavalee, Pierre - 1748-05-16 - FamilySearch.jpg".  The solution would be to have a single copy of the file "Saint-Laurent - Saint-Laurent - 1748 folio 4 - FamilySearc.jpg".  I'm not sure I want to tackle this, but the sooner I do it, the less work it will be...

BTW, I like these threads where we discuss how each of us uses the many features of Gramps.

Regards,

Simon

On 6 January 2017 at 11:37, paul womack <[hidden email]> wrote:
Simon C. Tremblay wrote:
Like Ron said, so many ways to skin this cat.

The way I do it is close to what Dave outlines here, but I would put "FHL microfilm 91,091" as the page and add the URL https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N5C5-W2J as an attribute to the citation.

Since the URL is finer granularity than the Film ID, I'd swap them, but as long as they're both recorded,
no biggy.

Like Dave, I would create a birth and a christening event and attach the citation to both.

More generally, a "full" baptism may also provide an occupation for the father,
and a residence ("abode") for both parents; the citation would be put against all these events.

If the image of the item is available, I save it to a subfolder of my media folder (I have a subfolder for census, one for church birth records, one for wedding photos, etc) and add it to the gallery for the citation.

Note - the wonderful "Media Verify" tool (which can detect files via their
MD5 checksum) means that you can move/rename/restructure your files any time
you like, and it will sort out the references for you AS LONG AS YOU GENERATE
THE CHECKSUMS BEFORE THE MOVE.

I lean on "Media Verify" for this a great deal (e.g. I once split a large "birth" directory
in separate Birth and Baptism sub-directories)

 BugBear



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Re: Logging a citation

Philip Weiss


On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Simon C. Tremblay <[hidden email]> wrote:

I will use Saint-Laurent > Saint-Laurent > image 34 of 564 as the page, because starting from the collection home page https://familysearch.org/search/collection/1321742 , I can browse to the exact image.


Be careful, because even that changes on FamilySearch.  I've found their URLS to to index pages, though not images themselves, to be generally stable.  But none of that is a given.  In particular, FamilySearch frequently takes images offline due to contractual agreements, and combines databases as well.  Sometimes they change around their waypoints.

That's why I try to figure out what the underlying record is, so that I can refer to it as well. I.e., if it's a series of death records, I'll make sure to add at the end of the citation to the FamilySearch collection, I'll add an additional "; citing Los Angeles County, Death Records, local file number 1922-12345."

Phil.

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Re: Logging a citation

Martnal
This has all been very, very helpful.  Thank you.

Martin

Martin, SW London

Gedmatch DNA Kit H062246.
FT-DNA Kit B388093.

Names: Loughborough and Loughbrough, (London, Hull, Pirton and Hartlepool);
Watson, (Bedlington, Jarrow & H'pool);
Ballard & Glassop (E. London); 
Leggett (Corton, Scarborough, Hartlepool); 
Young & Wilson, (Hartlepool). 

I am using GrampsAIO64-5.0.0-1 on Windows 10.
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Re: Logging a citation

Michael Stockhausen
In reply to this post by Martnal
I guess the golden rule is to cite the source that was actually viewed and
not the original source (if different), here: "England Births and
Christenings, 1538-1975".
But as this only a secondary source, it still makes sense to also cite the
primary source. As FS does not provide an image, you will want to view the
original to verify the information given, and then I would change the
citation to the original source.
In this specific case the citation info provided by FS is incomplete. I
think it should be:
"England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975," database, FamilySearch
(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N5C5-W2J : 30 December 2014),
Thomas Loughborough, 12 Jul 1812; citing "Parish registers of St.
Margaret's, Durham, 1557-1951"; FHL microfilm 91,091

I would put the information regarding the origianl document either into the
page/volume field or the citation notes

Michael

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
From: Martnal
Sent: Friday, January 6, 2017 3:05 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Gramps-users] Logging a citation

Could someone please explain to me how I record the
Repository/Source/Citation data from this?  Please assume that I have no
Repository/Source/Citation data at all yet.

"England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975," database, FamilySearch
(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N5C5-W2J : 30 December 2014),
Thomas Loughborough, 12 Jul 1812; citing , reference ; FHL microfilm 91,091.

Thanks in advance.  I've got to the stage where I wished I'd been more
diligent six months ago!  Not knowing what to do with that sort of data is
stopping me recording it.

Martin



-----


Martin, SW London

I am using GRAMPS 4.2.3-1 on Windows 10.

I am researching surnames Loughborough, (London and Hartlepool), Watson,
(Jarrow and Hartlepool), Ballard and Glassop (E. London), Mowbray, Pounder
and Bulmer, (all Hartlepool), Leggett (Middlesborough and Prescot).
--
View this message in context:
http://gramps.1791082.n4.nabble.com/Logging-a-citation-tp4678404.html
Sent from the GRAMPS - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: Logging a citation

Simon C. Tremblay
In reply to this post by Philip Weiss
Thanks for the warning.  In my particular case, the info I include, along with the date of the event is sufficient to trace it back even if it moves around. 

(I just noticed that a part of the reference is missing, the volume number Baptêmes, mariages, sépultures 1748-1795.  It use to be there, I just opened a case with FS about it.)

Simon

On 6 January 2017 at 13:26, Philip Weiss <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Simon C. Tremblay <[hidden email]> wrote:

I will use Saint-Laurent > Saint-Laurent > image 34 of 564 as the page, because starting from the collection home page https://familysearch.org/search/collection/1321742 , I can browse to the exact image.


Be careful, because even that changes on FamilySearch.  I've found their URLS to to index pages, though not images themselves, to be generally stable.  But none of that is a given.  In particular, FamilySearch frequently takes images offline due to contractual agreements, and combines databases as well.  Sometimes they change around their waypoints.

That's why I try to figure out what the underlying record is, so that I can refer to it as well. I.e., if it's a series of death records, I'll make sure to add at the end of the citation to the FamilySearch collection, I'll add an additional "; citing Los Angeles County, Death Records, local file number 1922-12345."

Phil.

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Re: Logging a citation

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by Dave Scheipers
Consistency is good & important, but never let it stop you from changing when you come up with a better way to do it...

On 01/06/2017 08:48 AM, Martnal wrote:
Ron, Dave, thank you for your replies.  I suppose the important this is for
me to be consistent, bearing in mind I'm unlikely to ever be asked for this
level of detail anyway!!

Ron, thanks, I was putting the URL in the Volume/Page field.

Dave, where do you put the URL?  You say 'Citation Note'.  Is that just a
note attached to the Citation, or is there a field somewhere with that name?

It's slowly all making sense, and I look back and don't see what actually
caused me a problem weeks ago.

-- 
World Peace Through Nuclear Pacification

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Re: Logging a citation

paul womack
In reply to this post by NdK
NdK wrote:
> Il 06/01/2017 16:33, paul womack ha scritto:
>
>> Yeah - if you later find a contradiction in your data/conclusions/tree and want
>> to re-check your original sources, you're going to want enough detail
>> to find those sources again.
> For that I usually save the source image. I use FS just to search
> metadata, but fetch the image from the archives' site (for Italian
> National Archives, at least).

I do that too. It's not a substitute for a (re)usable citation; sometimes
I want to go back to the original source to get other pages.

  BugBear


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