Main Participants column on person dialog

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Main Participants column on person dialog

paul womack
I just tried upgrading from 3.4.6 to 3.4.8 and am somewhat shocked
to find the person Edit dialog now has in pride of place
a "main participants" column, as second column.

For most people in my DB, this column is empty for 90% or better events.
Adding insult to injury, it's rather a wide column.

Is this a code upgrade, or are the columns (presence/order/size) configurable somewhere?

I just spent 10 minutes browsing/searching the docs and can't find this.

   BugBear

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Re: Main Participants column on person dialog

Nick Hall
On 20/01/15 15:32, paul womack wrote:
> For most people in my DB, this column is empty for 90% or better events.
> Adding insult to injury, it's rather a wide column.

It is a vital column if the person is not a primary participant in an event.

>
> Is this a code upgrade, or are the columns (presence/order/size) configurable somewhere?
>
> I just spent 10 minutes browsing/searching the docs and can't find this.

It is a change in the code, and is not configurable.

Nick.

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Re: Main Participants column on person dialog

James Smith
Would it be possible to make the columns resizable? The cursor already changes when over the boundary but it doesn't actually work.

It would be nice to be able to reorder them by dragging them about as well.

On 20 January 2015 at 15:45, Nick Hall <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 20/01/15 15:32, paul womack wrote:
> For most people in my DB, this column is empty for 90% or better events.
> Adding insult to injury, it's rather a wide column.

It is a vital column if the person is not a primary participant in an event.

>
> Is this a code upgrade, or are the columns (presence/order/size) configurable somewhere?
>
> I just spent 10 minutes browsing/searching the docs and can't find this.

It is a change in the code, and is not configurable.

Nick.

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Re: Main Participants column on person dialog

paul womack
James Smith wrote:
> Would it be possible to make the columns resizable?

I'd settle for them auto sizing to the max data actually present. I'd assumed
they were sizing to the max in the table for each column, but on looking at
the code they're actually fixed.

 > The cursor already changes when over the boundary but it doesn't actually work.
>
> It would be nice to be able to reorder them by dragging them about as well.

Or even via a separate dialog, as per the current "Active View"
editor.

  BugBear

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Re: Main Participants column on person dialog

Nick Hall
In reply to this post by James Smith
On 21/01/15 09:46, James Smith wrote:
> Would it be possible to make the columns resizable? The cursor already
> changes when over the boundary but it doesn't actually work.
>

There is a Gtk bug that means that we can either allow column resizing
or the have list scrollable.  If we choose to allow column resizing then
people with small screens will never be able to see the columns on the
right-hand side.

> It would be nice to be able to reorder them by dragging them about as
> well.
>

This would be possible because dragging columns is standard
functionality for Gtk ListViews.  Extra code would need to be written to
save the column order.  To have a consistent interface, it would also be
nice to allow this on the main Gramps views.

Nick.


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Re: Main Participants column on person dialog

paul womack
In reply to this post by paul womack
paul womack wrote:
> I just tried upgrading from 3.4.6 to 3.4.8 and am somewhat shocked
> to find the person Edit dialog now has in pride of place
> a "main participants" column, as second column.
>
> For most people in my DB, this column is empty for 90% or better events.
> Adding insult to injury, it's rather a wide column.

In case my working practises are unusual, I've uploaded
screen shots, showing what I believe to be the negative
change in 3.4.8

3.4.6
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f234/bugbear33/misc/gramp_col2-1.jpg

3.4.8
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f234/bugbear33/misc/gimp_col-1.jpg

   BugBear

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Re: Main Participants column on person dialog

Nick Hall
On 23/01/15 09:03, paul womack wrote:

> paul womack wrote:
>> >I just tried upgrading from 3.4.6 to 3.4.8 and am somewhat shocked
>> >to find the person Edit dialog now has in pride of place
>> >a "main participants" column, as second column.
>> >
>> >For most people in my DB, this column is empty for 90% or better events.
>> >Adding insult to injury, it's rather a wide column.
> In case my working practises are unusual, I've uploaded
> screen shots, showing what I believe to be the negative
> change in 3.4.8
>
> 3.4.6
> http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f234/bugbear33/misc/gramp_col2-1.jpg
>
> 3.4.8
> http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f234/bugbear33/misc/gimp_col-1.jpg

I have just made a change to make the main participants column populated
for all events.

This column will probably mostly show the edited person or family, but
it is important to know who the main participants are.

See:

7342: Show "Main Participants" with events
https://gramps-project.org/bugs/view.php?id=7342

7770: Event list in editors does not display content into 'Main
Participants' column
https://gramps-project.org/bugs/view.php?id=7770

Nick.


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Re: Main Participants column on person dialog

paul womack
Nick Hall wrote:

>
> I have just made a change to make the main participants column populated
> for all events.
>
> This column will probably mostly show the edited person or family, but
> it is important to know who the main participants are.

I don't see  that a repetitively populated column
is much of a step forward (certainly in my use case)
over a blank column.

  :-(

  BugBear

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Re: Main Participants column on person dialog

enno
In reply to this post by Nick Hall
Hi Nick,

> I have just made a change to make the main participants column populated
> for all events.
>
> This column will probably mostly show the edited person or family, but
> it is important to know who the main participants are.
>
> See:
>
> 7342: Show "Main Participants" with events
> https://gramps-project.org/bugs/view.php?id=7342
>
> 7770: Event list in editors does not display content into 'Main
> Participants' column
> https://gramps-project.org/bugs/view.php?id=7770
In the person editor, many individual events have the subject as the
main participant, so there it looks quite redundant to me. My main
'gripe' about this however is the location of the column. It's 2nd now,
before date, location, and description.

If possible, I prefer to see it more to the right, like after role.

regards,

Enno


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Re: Main Participants column on person dialog

Nick Hall
On 23/01/15 13:35, Enno Borgsteede wrote:

>> 7342: Show "Main Participants" with events
>> >https://gramps-project.org/bugs/view.php?id=7342
>> >
>> >7770: Event list in editors does not display content into 'Main
>> >Participants' column
>> >https://gramps-project.org/bugs/view.php?id=7770
> In the person editor, many individual events have the subject as the
> main participant, so there it looks quite redundant to me. My main
> 'gripe' about this however is the location of the column. It's 2nd now,
> before date, location, and description.
>
> If possible, I prefer to see it more to the right, like after role.

For events where the role is other than Primary or Family, the main
participants is an important column.  For example, if the person
participated in 5 marriage events then it identifies the bride and groom.

Even if the person is a primary participant, they might not be the only
primary participant.

Please feel free to discuss the issue on this list, and come up with a
patch that will suit everyone.

Nick.


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Re: Main Participants column on person dialog

paul womack
Nick Hall wrote:

>
> For events where the role is other than Primary or Family, the main
> participants is an important column.  For example, if the person
> participated in 5 marriage events then it identifies the bride and groom.
>
> Even if the person is a primary participant, they might not be the only
> primary participant.

The examples you're quoting seem interesting
and important, but infrequent, (unless, as I said,
my data is unusual).

I (and I mean I) would be happy to address
this by simple having a column that indicated
a boolean - "unique primary participant".

Should this boolean be false, I would be quite happy
to (at worst) click on the event and use the
reference tab to find all the other participants
should I want to. One could even use colour coding on
another existing field to represent this boolean (a technique
I have used in a commercial product).

In terms of screen real estate, with 3.4.6 as a reference point

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f234/bugbear33/misc/gramp_col2-1.jpg

I (and again, I can speak only in terms of my data
and working practices) would prefer;

Date, Type, Description, Place, Role, Id

My data is normally date sorted, so the Date is "just" a sequencer,
Type is the key discriminator of an event, whilst Description
is can be viewed as an extension, modifier or qualifier of type.

With apologies for my poor Gimp skils:

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f234/bugbear33/misc/gramp_wish.jpg

  BugBear


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Re: Main Participants column on person dialog

Nick Hall
On 23/01/15 15:04, paul womack wrote:

> I (and again, I can speak only in terms of my data
> and working practices) would prefer;
>
> Date, Type, Description, Place, Role, Id
>
> My data is normally date sorted, so the Date is "just" a sequencer,
> Type is the key discriminator of an event, whilst Description
> is can be viewed as an extension, modifier or qualifier of type.
>
> With apologies for my poor Gimp skils:
>
> http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f234/bugbear33/misc/gramp_wish.jpg
>

That column order would also work well with my data.

However, we also need to consider bug #7342.  For an event where the
edited person is not the primary participant, the following order may be
better:

Date, Role, Type, Description, Participants, Place, Id

For example:

01 Jan 1900 | Witness | Marriage | | A. Smith and B. Jones | London,
England | E0001

Perhaps we have different column orders for primary events, family
events and other events.


Nick.


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Re: Main Participants column on person dialog

enno
Nick,

> That column order would also work well with my data.
>
> However, we also need to consider bug #7342.  For an event where the
> edited person is not the primary participant, the following order may be
> better:
>
> Date, Role, Type, Description, Participants, Place, Id
>
> For example:
>
> 01 Jan 1900 | Witness | Marriage | | A. Smith and B. Jones | London,
> England | E0001
>
> Perhaps we have different column orders for primary events, family
> events and other events.
Perhaps, but even with that it may be difficult to please everyone. I
hacked my own 3.4.9 development code to display Type, Description, Date,
Place, Role, Participants, ID, both in the displaytab and the gramplet,
but that's just what I like.

Having different orders would imply that displaytab and gramplet need to
be split into sections, right?

regards,

Enno


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Re: Main Participants column on person dialog

enno
In reply to this post by Nick Hall
Nick,

> That column order would also work well with my data.
>
> However, we also need to consider bug #7342.  For an event where the
> edited person is not the primary participant, the following order may be
> better:
>
> Date, Role, Type, Description, Participants, Place, Id
>
> For example:
>
> 01 Jan 1900 | Witness | Marriage | | A. Smith and B. Jones | London,
> England | E0001
>
> Perhaps we have different column orders for primary events, family
> events and other events.
Perhaps, but even with that it may be difficult to please everyone. I
hacked my own 3.4.9 development code to display Type, Description, Date,
Place, Role, Participants, ID, both in the displaytab and the gramplet,
but that's just what I like.

Having different orders would imply that displaytab and gramplet need to
be split into sections, right?

regards,

Enno


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Re: Main Participants column on person dialog

Brad Rogers
In reply to this post by Nick Hall
On Fri, 23 Jan 2015 15:45:41 +0000
Nick Hall <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Nick,

>Perhaps we have different column orders for primary events, family
>events and other events.

Changing column order based on context is likely to end up confusing and
error prone.  Admittedly, as this is for output, not input, it's not as
bad, but still best avoided IMO.

I know one size does not fit all, and some would welcome such a change,
but if such changes *are* to be made I suggest that the column order be
user selectable as it already is in the main views.

--
 Regards  _
         / )           "The blindingly obvious is
        / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
Is she really going out with him?
New Rose - The Damned

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Re: Main Participants column on person dialog

Laura Lambert

Add in most things one size rarely fits all.  While it would probably be a bit harder to do my personal suggest would be to make it individually configurable.  Perhaps something that you configure in preferences?


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Re: Main Participants column on person dialog

Sebastian Schubert
In reply to this post by Nick Hall
Am 23.01.2015 um 15:16 schrieb Nick Hall:

> On 23/01/15 13:35, Enno Borgsteede wrote:
>>> 7342: Show "Main Participants" with events
>>>> https://gramps-project.org/bugs/view.php?id=7342
>>>>
>>>> 7770: Event list in editors does not display content into 'Main
>>>> Participants' column
>>>> https://gramps-project.org/bugs/view.php?id=7770
>> In the person editor, many individual events have the subject as the
>> main participant, so there it looks quite redundant to me. My main
>> 'gripe' about this however is the location of the column. It's 2nd now,
>> before date, location, and description.
>>
>> If possible, I prefer to see it more to the right, like after role.
>
> For events where the role is other than Primary or Family, the main
> participants is an important column.  For example, if the person
> participated in 5 marriage events then it identifies the bride and groom.
>
> Even if the person is a primary participant, they might not be the only
> primary participant.
>
> Please feel free to discuss the issue on this list, and come up with a
> patch that will suit everyone.

For me (and apparently many other here):

* For MOST events, the main participant is the edited person (case 1 in
the following). Thus, in most cases, the Main Participant column but
also the Role column are not important to understand the event. The
information of both columns is even redundant. Therefore, one would put
both columns somewhere to the right of the window.

* For SOME events, however, it is important to see that the edited
person is NOT the main participant (case 2). In this case, one would
like to have the Main Participant and the Role column in a more
prominent position.

Thus, a configurable column order would not help a lot here because we
have contradicting requirements for case 1 and 2. Also filling the Main
Participant column in the standard case when the edited person is the
only main participant might be less confusing for a beginner but makes
differentiating between the two cases above harder.

Therefore, I would like to propose an alternative approach which is even
already implemented in Gramps at another place: join the Type and the
Role column as in the narrated web report. The new type column (Type+ in
the following) should be (one of) the first columns. In the usual case
1, it shows just the type of the event; in case 2, in addition, Type+
shows the role. For example, the Type+ content for a marriage of the
edited person (case 1) would be just "Marriage" while it would be
"Marriage (Witness)" when the person was just a witness of someone
else's marriage (case). Who married in the latter case is shown in the
main participants column, which now can be put to the right.

I suppose with a Type+ column, one could remove the Role column. The
role would be still available in the details view of the event.

What do you think?

Sebastian

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Re: Main Participants column on person dialog

Nick Hall
On 25/01/15 11:02, Sebastian Schubert wrote:

> Therefore, I would like to propose an alternative approach which is even
> already implemented in Gramps at another place: join the Type and the
> Role column as in the narrated web report. The new type column (Type+ in
> the following) should be (one of) the first columns. In the usual case
> 1, it shows just the type of the event; in case 2, in addition, Type+
> shows the role. For example, the Type+ content for a marriage of the
> edited person (case 1) would be just "Marriage" while it would be
> "Marriage (Witness)" when the person was just a witness of someone
> else's marriage (case). Who married in the latter case is shown in the
> main participants column, which now can be put to the right.
>
> I suppose with a Type+ column, one could remove the Role column. The
> role would be still available in the details view of the event.
>
> What do you think?
>
This is the best suggestion so far.  We could even take it one step
further and use the description column for the participants.  So we
could have the following columns:

Type (Role)
Description (Paricipants)
Date
Place
ID

An example, where the edited person is a primary participant:

Occupation | Blacksmith | 1 Jan 1800 | London, England | E0001

and for a witness in a marriage:

Marriage (Witness) | A. Smith and B. Jones | 1 Jan 1900 | London,
England | E0002

I suggest that we don't display the description where the edited person
is not a primary participant.  In an editor, we need to quickly identify
the object to be edited.  We don't need to display all information
available.  This would work well on smaller screens.


Nick.


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Re: Main Participants column on person dialog

Nick Hall
On 25/01/15 16:44, Paul Womack wrote:
On 25 January 2015 at 15:11, Nick Hall <[hidden email]> wrote:
This is the best suggestion so far.  We could even take it one step
further and use the description column for the participants.  So we
could have the following columns:

Type (Role)
Description (Paricipants)
Date
Place
ID

An example, where the edited person is a primary participant:

Occupation | Blacksmith | 1 Jan 1800 | London, England | E0001

and for a witness in a marriage:

Marriage (Witness) | A. Smith and B. Jones | 1 Jan 1900 | London,
England | E0002

I suggest that we don't display the description where the edited person
is not a primary participant.  In an editor, we need to quickly identify
the object to be edited.  We don't need to display all information
available.  This would work well on smaller screens.


That's all pretty darn good.

My only caveat is that the participant
list CAN be large (a will with an extended family for example;
many executors and beneficiaries).


There is only likely to be one primary participant in a will, so you would see something like:

Will (Executor) | A. Smith | 1 Feb 1934 | London, England | E0003


Nick.


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Re: Main Participants column on person dialog

Philip Weiss
I use the probate event for that.  The will event is supposed to be for when the will is signed.  The issues discussed do apply to probate though.

Phil.

On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 9:35 AM, Nick Hall <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 25/01/15 16:44, Paul Womack wrote:
On 25 January 2015 at 15:11, Nick Hall <[hidden email]> wrote:
This is the best suggestion so far.  We could even take it one step
further and use the description column for the participants.  So we
could have the following columns:

Type (Role)
Description (Paricipants)
Date
Place
ID

An example, where the edited person is a primary participant:

Occupation | Blacksmith | 1 Jan 1800 | London, England | E0001

and for a witness in a marriage:

Marriage (Witness) | A. Smith and B. Jones | 1 Jan 1900 | London,
England | E0002

I suggest that we don't display the description where the edited person
is not a primary participant.  In an editor, we need to quickly identify
the object to be edited.  We don't need to display all information
available.  This would work well on smaller screens.


That's all pretty darn good.

My only caveat is that the participant
list CAN be large (a will with an extended family for example;
many executors and beneficiaries).


There is only likely to be one primary participant in a will, so you would see something like:

Will (Executor) | A. Smith | 1 Feb 1934 | London, England | E0003


Nick.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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GigeNET is offering a free month of service with a new server in Ashburn.
Choose from 2 high performing configs, both with 100TB of bandwidth.
Higher redundancy.Lower latency.Increased capacity.Completely compliant.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/gigenet
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