Marriage Event Question

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Marriage Event Question

Peter (chamdo4ever)
This question stems once again from my conversion to Gramps from "The
Master Genealogist."

Per the Wiki, I recognize that the recommended practice in Gramps is
to use the marriage event, "...typically as the 'official' starting
event of the family unit in Gramps, that is, use it as a family event,
with event role family."

Also, sharing the the marriage event "...with roles bride and groom is
not the recommended approach in Gramps."

Currently -- as a result of coming from "The Master Genealogist" by
way of tmg2gramps -- when viewing a married individual, each marriage
is listed twice: both as a "Personal" event (with role "Primary") and
as a "Family" event (with role "Family"). The event itself only exists
once (it has one unique, event ID number).

Perhaps the Wiki is already giving me the answer, but just to be
entirely clear, what is the standard recommended practice -- having it
listed there twice as "Personal" and "Family" events? Or should it
only be listed once as a "Family" event?"

Many thanks,

Peter

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Re: Marriage Event Question

enno
Peter,
> Perhaps the Wiki is already giving me the answer, but just to be
> entirely clear, what is the standard recommended practice -- having it
> listed there twice as "Personal" and "Family" events? Or should it
> only be listed once as a "Family" event?"
I suggest family only, because that's how it is in GEDCOM, and family
events show up in the person editor anyway, so you always access them
from there.

regards,

Enno


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Re: Marriage Event Question

Peter (chamdo4ever)
On Fri, Jun 20, 2014 at 7:34 AM, Enno Borgsteede <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I suggest family only, because that's how it is in GEDCOM, and family
> events show up in the person editor anyway, so you always access them
> from there.

Thank you Enno -- that is as I suspected. Having it listed twice also
makes things unnecessarily cluttered.

This then yields a new question: what is the best way to delete the
marriages only as "Personal" events and not as "Family" events? I can
of course go through each family and delete them manually, but given
that I have 2,827 families in my database, I would welcome any easier
and faster option.

Many thanks,

Peter

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Re: Marriage Event Question

Brad Rogers
In reply to this post by enno
On Fri, 20 Jun 2014 13:34:20 +0200
Enno Borgsteede <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Enno,

>I suggest family only, because that's how it is in GEDCOM, and family
>events show up in the person editor anyway, so you always access them
>from there.

That can make it tricky when adding attributes, in particular, age.  I
like to add Description (bachelor/spinster, widow(er), etc.) and Age.
Description usually isn't a problem, but two ages can be as it's harder
to distinguish who the age refers to.  I could, I suppose attach the
attributes to the occupation or residence associated with each person
but the attributes don't make as much sense there.

So, currently, I drag the family marriage event to both bride & groom so
it is possible to assign the attributes without ambiguity.

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Re: Marriage Event Question

Sebastian Schubert
In reply to this post by Peter (chamdo4ever)
> This then yields a new question: what is the best way to delete the
> marriages only as "Personal" events and not as "Family" events? I can
> of course go through each family and delete them manually, but given
> that I have 2,827 families in my database, I would welcome any easier
> and faster option.

I would propose to export your database into gramps.xml format (the
resulting file has to be extracted using gzip). This file includes lines
like

      <eventref hlink="_c77c6650250220e3cff52ca58de" role="Groom"/>

Thus, I suppose by automatically deleting every line that includes
role="Groom" you should get rid of the additional entries after
re-importing the file. The automatic deletion could be done with regular
expressions.

Of course, always do backups!

Sebastian

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Re: Marriage Event Question

derHeinzi
In reply to this post by Brad Rogers
Even though it is not recommended by most Gramps developers I also add the marriage event to the known participants with their rules. Groom, Bride, Witness, Cleric, Registrar.
It would seem odd to me to have all other rules filled out, but not the ones of the main participants.
And yes, I add the Witness, Cleric and Registrar to the people in my database even if they are unrelated.
Sometimes there is a story behind why a couple wanted to be married by a specific cleric or registrar or why they wanted a person as witness.

On Fri, 20 Jun 2014 14:37:31 +0200, Brad Rogers <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, 20 Jun 2014 13:34:20 +0200
> Enno Borgsteede <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hello Enno,
>
>> I suggest family only, because that's how it is in GEDCOM, and family
>> events show up in the person editor anyway, so you always access them
>> from there.
>
> That can make it tricky when adding attributes, in particular, age.  I
> like to add Description (bachelor/spinster, widow(er), etc.) and Age.
> Description usually isn't a problem, but two ages can be as it's harder
> to distinguish who the age refers to.  I could, I suppose attach the
> attributes to the occupation or residence associated with each person
> but the attributes don't make as much sense there.
>
> So, currently, I drag the family marriage event to both bride & groom so
> it is possible to assign the attributes without ambiguity.

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Re: Marriage Event Question

Brad Rogers
On Sat, 21 Jun 2014 06:35:47 +0200
"Heinz Brinker" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Heinz,

>And yes, I add the Witness, Cleric and Registrar to the people in my
>database even if they are unrelated. Sometimes there is a story behind

I don't record Registrar or cleric.  Witness yes, if they're in my
database.  I do often revisit marriage (and death) certificates to check
whether names that were previously not known in my database have been
added.

>why a couple wanted to be married by a specific cleric or registrar or
>why they wanted a person as witness.

Good point - I hadn't considered that.

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Re: Marriage Event Question

Peter (chamdo4ever)
Thank you for all for the replies.

Brad and Heinz, realizing that you do have the marriage's as
"Personal" Events, do you also have them as "Family" Events? I feel
like I'm in somewhat of a unique position in having them display twice
which is of course a lingering issue of my "Master Genealogist"
database conversion.

It's not entirely the end of the world to have them listed twice when
looking at a person's details, though admittedly things then don't
look quite as tidy as I would like -- I really should choose one or
the other.

Thank you,

Peter


On Sat, Jun 21, 2014 at 1:48 AM, Brad Rogers <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sat, 21 Jun 2014 06:35:47 +0200
> "Heinz Brinker" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hello Heinz,
>
>>And yes, I add the Witness, Cleric and Registrar to the people in my
>>database even if they are unrelated. Sometimes there is a story behind
>
> I don't record Registrar or cleric.  Witness yes, if they're in my
> database.  I do often revisit marriage (and death) certificates to check
> whether names that were previously not known in my database have been
> added.
>
>>why a couple wanted to be married by a specific cleric or registrar or
>>why they wanted a person as witness.
>
> Good point - I hadn't considered that.
>
> --
>  Regards  _
>          / )           "The blindingly obvious is
>         / _)rad        never immediately apparent"
> You're only 29 got a lot to learn
> Seventeen - Sex Pistols
>
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Re: Marriage Event Question

enno
Peter,
> It's not entirely the end of the world to have them listed twice when
> looking at a person's details, though admittedly things then don't
> look quite as tidy as I would like -- I really should choose one or
> the other.
Bear in mind that, when uploading GEDCOMs to say Ancestry, or any other
site, the marriage event is probably the only one that comes through, or
that, if it's not there, all marriages on site will appear without date,
or even that people will show up unmarried there.

If you don't export to GEDCOM, not to sites, nor for relatives, you can
choose either, but I like to be safe, and conform to standards where
possible.

regards,

Enno


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Re: Marriage Event Question

Brad Rogers
In reply to this post by Peter (chamdo4ever)
On Sat, 21 Jun 2014 09:58:02 -0400
Peter <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Peter,

>Brad and Heinz, realizing that you do have the marriage's as
>"Personal" Events, do you also have them as "Family" Events? I feel

Yes:  I create the family event, fill in all the details I have and copy
it to the clipboard.  From there, I drag the marriage event to the
personal events of bride and groom with roles set accordingly and add age
and description (bachelor, spinster, etc.) attributes.  I then create
personal events for residence and occupation.  Again, with roles of
bride or groom as appropriate.

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Re: Marriage Event Question

derHeinzi

I also keep the events for family and individuals.
Other than Brad I do not use the roles Bride and Groom outside the marriage or engagement events.
As for the residence: I add the residence event to a family to know where this family lived (and when). The people living in this place have their own residence events, if possible with an individual timespan for each person, but sharing the location of the residence. This way I know who left the family home and who stayed "on family ground".

If the residence location (or any other information) is known from a marriage document, the source is linked to the residence event (or other information). But I set the roles to Primary in this case since residence or occupation are not marriage related.

On Sat, 21 Jun 2014 20:10:09 +0200, Brad Rogers <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sat, 21 Jun 2014 09:58:02 -0400
> Peter <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hello Peter,
>
>> Brad and Heinz, realizing that you do have the marriage's as
>> "Personal" Events, do you also have them as "Family" Events? I feel
>
> Yes:  I create the family event, fill in all the details I have and copy
> it to the clipboard.  From there, I drag the marriage event to the
> personal events of bride and groom with roles set accordingly and add age
> and description (bachelor, spinster, etc.) attributes.  I then create
> personal events for residence and occupation.  Again, with roles of
> bride or groom as appropriate.

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Re: Marriage Event Question

Brad Rogers
On Sun, 22 Jun 2014 08:44:56 +0200
"Heinz Brinker" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Heinz,

>As for the residence: I add the residence event to a family to know
>where this family lived (and when). The people living in this place

I use Residence for families too, although it can be tricky due to the
coming and going that could/can occur of various family members;  Just
as you say.

>If the residence location (or any other information) is known from a
>marriage document, the source is linked to the residence event (or
>other information). But I set the roles to Primary in this case since
>residence or occupation are not marriage related.

The vagaries of English law(1) mean that, on occasion, either or both
bride & groom use a 'convenience' address to enable them to marry where
they wish.  This is not the usual residence.  For example, my aunt and
uncle lived in Essex around the time of their marriage, yet they married
in Hampshire.  This was made possible using my grandparents'  address as
the residence for my aunt.

(1)  It's a requirement that at least one of the couple wishing to marry
reside in the area for a period of (IIRC) three weeks prior to the
wedding.

--
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Re: Marriage Event Question

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by derHeinzi
On 06/22/2014 06:32 AM, Brad Rogers wrote:

> On Sun, 22 Jun 2014 08:44:56 +0200
> "Heinz Brinker" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hello Heinz,
>
>> As for the residence: I add the residence event to a family to know
>> where this family lived (and when). The people living in this place
> I use Residence for families too, although it can be tricky due to the
> coming and going that could/can occur of various family members;  Just
> as you say.

That's why I attach Residence & Census events to individuals: things just
get *wrong* with large families as older children leave and newer ones are born.

--
My word, man!  Don't you know your quantum statistics?


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Re: Marriage Event Question

Brad Rogers
On Sun, 22 Jun 2014 07:19:51 -0500
Ron Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Ron,

>That's why I attach Residence & Census events to individuals: things
>just get *wrong* with large families as older children leave and newer
>ones are born.

I use the Census Gramplet to mitigate some of that, but yes, it can get
very messy.

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Re: Marriage Event Question

Peter (chamdo4ever)
In reply to this post by enno
Hi Enno,

On Sat, Jun 21, 2014 at 1:32 PM, Enno Borgsteede <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Bear in mind that, when uploading GEDCOMs to say Ancestry, or any other
> site, the marriage event is probably the only one that comes through, or
> that, if it's not there, all marriages on site will appear without date,
> or even that people will show up unmarried there.

Yes, I learned this lesson very quickly as I keep the "Family Bee"
Android app on my phone. When I first imported a GEDCOM from Gramps
into it, every "Person" had a marriage "Event" but some were missing
it as a "Family" -- in those cases, spouses in the app wouldn't
display and they appeared to be unmarried, despite having the marriage
"Event" -- a confusing mess.

> If you don't export to GEDCOM, not to sites, nor for relatives, you can
> choose either, but I like to be safe, and conform to standards where
> possible.

Well, it seems that listing the marriage as a "Family" event is
absolutely essential. Still, just like Brad and Heinz have mentioned,
I'm keeping marriage events for individuals as well because as they
have pointed out, there is important information that is best stored
that way too. Also, when viewing individual details, I find it helpful
to see the marriage within the context of the individual life events.

It is the same case with Divorces -- I put them both under "Family"
and under Individuals as well for the same reasons.

So, after using Gramps rather intensely for the past month, this leads
me to my one and only criticism of the software thus far. It is a
minor, not a major criticism... and I'm not even entirely sure what an
appropriate solution would be. Keeping marriages under "Family" is
essential, but having them as individual events is important too. This
leaves you with marriages listed twice when looking at every
individual and with details looking messy -- particularly when it
comes to the "Ages" column under "Family." I recognize that the "Age"
there represents the age of the family itself, but even that can get
confusing, especially when viewing the "Ages" of events of the Father
and Mother under "Family."

I really like Gramps a lot and am very happy that I have finally made
the long overdue switch to it from "The Master Genealogist" -- no
question there. But there is room for some kind of improvement
regarding the handling of the above issues and as I said, I'm not even
entirely sure what a good solution would be.

Regards,

Peter

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Re: Marriage Event Question

Nick Hall
On 22/06/14 16:32, Peter wrote:
> This
> leaves you with marriages listed twice when looking at every
> individual and with details looking messy -- particularly when it
> comes to the "Ages" column under "Family." I recognize that the "Age"
> there represents the age of the family itself, but even that can get
> confusing, especially when viewing the "Ages" of events of the Father
> and Mother under "Family."

There is a bug report for this:

6931: Age since marriage

https://gramps-project.org/bugs/view.php?id=6931

Perhaps we should remove the Age column from the family editor?


>
> I really like Gramps a lot and am very happy that I have finally made
> the long overdue switch to it from "The Master Genealogist" -- no
> question there. But there is room for some kind of improvement
> regarding the handling of the above issues and as I said, I'm not even
> entirely sure what a good solution would be.

One approach would be to store all events as individual events.

The Gedcom export and some reports would need to be modified.  You could
start a GEPS to discuss it.

https://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Category:GEPS


Nick.


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Re: Marriage Event Question

enno
In reply to this post by Peter (chamdo4ever)
Hi Peter,
> I really like Gramps a lot and am very happy that I have finally made
> the long overdue switch to it from "The Master Genealogist" -- no
> question there. But there is room for some kind of improvement
> regarding the handling of the above issues and as I said, I'm not even
> entirely sure what a good solution would be.
In traditional programs like PAF, and GEDCOM too, events are sort of
properties of persons and families, and can't exist on their own. There
might be an event table inside most of todays software, but as a user,
you can not create an unlinked event, just like you can't create a
location in most. And even though our software is much less traditional,
you see traces of these things in Gramps, the design of which started
many years ago, when I was still using PAF myself.

In GedcomX, things have changed. Events can exist on their own, have an
optional date and place, and a list of persons, which can be optional too:

https://github.com/FamilySearch/gedcomx/blob/master/specifications/conceptual-model-specification.md#25-the-event-data-type

In that, there is no reference to families anymore, so this is much like
Nick suggested. And I think it is way more practical too, because in
reality any event can have multiple persons, death too, or none at all.
Multi-person events make it much easier to record and exchange witnesses
and parents of spouses in a marriage, spouses and children left behind
by a death, and so forth. I would personally go even further, and use
event persons, so that you can record and exchange names, ages, or birth
dates as they appear for participants in a marriage, parents of a child,
etc. Persons in the tree would then be combinations of event persons,
and in the research process, events could be directly derived from
sources, without ever worrying about where a variation of a person's
name was found.

Add document management, and Gramps will be perfect, better than TMG and
Evidentia together. :-)

regards,

Enno


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Re: Marriage Event Question

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by Peter (chamdo4ever)
On 06/22/2014 03:02 PM, Enno Borgsteede wrote:
>   And I think it is way more practical too, because in
> reality any event can have multiple persons, death too, or none at all.

What's the purpose of an Event without a Person?

--
My word, man!  Don't you know your quantum statistics?


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Re: Marriage Event Question

enno
Ron,
> What's the purpose of an Event without a Person?
Anything that you like to record from history. It won't appear in any
report right now, but it's nice if you use Gramps as a general research
tool, just like you can store sources and citations and connect those to
other objects later.

regards,

Enno



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Re: Marriage Event Question

Peter (chamdo4ever)
In reply to this post by Nick Hall
On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 12:55 PM, Nick Hall <[hidden email]> wrote:
> There is a bug report for this:
>
> 6931: Age since marriage
>
> https://gramps-project.org/bugs/view.php?id=6931
>
> Perhaps we should remove the Age column from the family editor?

Thank you Nick. Sure, that is certainly one solution that would solve
the issue of the confusing ages being displayed.

> One approach would be to store all events as individual events.
>
> The Gedcom export and some reports would need to be modified.  You could
> start a GEPS to discuss it.
>
> https://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Category:GEPS

That's an interesting idea and I think a good one. I'd be glad to
start a GEPS, but need a little guidance in how to start it going.
I've been doing my best in trying to coherently update the Wiki in
regards to using tmg2gramps to import data to Gramps, but writing a
GEPS seems a bit more involved. So, I'm happy to do it, but I need a
little help and some guidance in getting it started.

Thanks,

Peter

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