Marriage

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Marriage

Stefan Björk-2
Ducan wrote something that I've been thinking of as translator:

> It sounds to me like you're confusing the relationship 'marriage'
> between two people with the event 'marriage' which is fixed in time.

In Swedish, this is actually two different words. The relationship
'marriage' is called 'äktenskap', and the event 'vigsel' or 'giftermål'.
Currently, I use the word 'giftermål' which - with some violence on the
language - could mean both, but in the best of worlds, the PO-file
should differentiate between those.

Stefan


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Re: Marriage

Gerald Britton-2
Same situation in Dutch, where huwelijk means marriage but trouwen and
getrouwd are used for marry and married respectively. One can alsoi
say huwen and gehuwd but it is not part on everyday speech.

On 11/2/06, Stefan Björk <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Ducan wrote something that I've been thinking of as translator:
>
> > It sounds to me like you're confusing the relationship 'marriage'
> > between two people with the event 'marriage' which is fixed in time.
>
> In Swedish, this is actually two different words. The relationship
> 'marriage' is called 'äktenskap', and the event 'vigsel' or 'giftermål'.
> Currently, I use the word 'giftermål' which - with some violence on the
> language - could mean both, but in the best of worlds, the PO-file
> should differentiate between those.
>
> Stefan
>
>
>

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Re: Marriage

Don Allingham
I think we might have a mechanism that will allow us to distinguish
between the two. Let me check with Alex.

Don

On Fri, 2006-11-03 at 06:50 -0500, Gerald Britton wrote:

> Same situation in Dutch, where huwelijk means marriage but trouwen and
> getrouwd are used for marry and married respectively. One can alsoi
> say huwen and gehuwd but it is not part on everyday speech.
>
> On 11/2/06, Stefan Björk <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Ducan wrote something that I've been thinking of as translator:
> >
> > > It sounds to me like you're confusing the relationship 'marriage'
> > > between two people with the event 'marriage' which is fixed in time.
> >
> > In Swedish, this is actually two different words. The relationship
> > 'marriage' is called 'äktenskap', and the event 'vigsel' or 'giftermål'.
> > Currently, I use the word 'giftermål' which - with some violence on the
> > language - could mean both, but in the best of worlds, the PO-file
> > should differentiate between those.
> >
> > Stefan
> >
> >
> >
>
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Re: Marriage

Eero Tamminen-3
Hi,

On Friday 03 November 2006 14:36, Don Allingham wrote:
> I think we might have a mechanism that will allow us to distinguish
> between the two. Let me check with Alex.

Yes, the msgid can contain so called "context" part which can be used to
differentiate things which in English are just a one word, but in other
languages require several different ones.   I.e. this requires changing
the code containing the original string, and updating all the translations.

For example, in this case the new msgids could be:
        "relationship|marriage"
        "event|marriage"

And when translated, the translation doesn't include the part upto '|'
(I think the new check_po checks this). For an example, grep the current
code and translations for this:
        grep "|Title" $(find -name '*.po' -o -name '*.py')|grep -v ':#'


        - Eero

>
> Don
>
> On Fri, 2006-11-03 at 06:50 -0500, Gerald Britton wrote:
> > Same situation in Dutch, where huwelijk means marriage but trouwen and
> > getrouwd are used for marry and married respectively. One can alsoi
> > say huwen and gehuwd but it is not part on everyday speech.
> >
> > On 11/2/06, Stefan Björk <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > Ducan wrote something that I've been thinking of as translator:
> > > > It sounds to me like you're confusing the relationship 'marriage'
> > > > between two people with the event 'marriage' which is fixed in
> > > > time.
> > >
> > > In Swedish, this is actually two different words. The relationship
> > > 'marriage' is called 'äktenskap', and the event 'vigsel' or
> > > 'giftermål'. Currently, I use the word 'giftermål' which - with some
> > > violence on the language - could mean both, but in the best of
> > > worlds, the PO-file should differentiate between those.

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Re: Marriage

jerome
> Yes, the msgid can contain so called "context" part which can be used to
> differentiate things which in English are just a one word, but in other
> languages require several different ones

On gettext 0.15

  - PO files can now contain messages constrained to a certain context.
    The syntax in the PO file is
       msgctxt "context"
       msgid "original"
       msgstr "translation"

But is it already handle correctly ? I don't know.



Eero Tamminen a écrit :

> Hi,
>
> On Friday 03 November 2006 14:36, Don Allingham wrote:
>> I think we might have a mechanism that will allow us to distinguish
>> between the two. Let me check with Alex.
>
> Yes, the msgid can contain so called "context" part which can be used to
> differentiate things which in English are just a one word, but in other
> languages require several different ones.   I.e. this requires changing
> the code containing the original string, and updating all the translations.
>
> For example, in this case the new msgids could be:
> "relationship|marriage"
> "event|marriage"
>
> And when translated, the translation doesn't include the part upto '|'
> (I think the new check_po checks this). For an example, grep the current
> code and translations for this:
> grep "|Title" $(find -name '*.po' -o -name '*.py')|grep -v ':#'
>
>
> - Eero
>
>> Don
>>
>> On Fri, 2006-11-03 at 06:50 -0500, Gerald Britton wrote:
>>> Same situation in Dutch, where huwelijk means marriage but trouwen and
>>> getrouwd are used for marry and married respectively. One can alsoi
>>> say huwen and gehuwd but it is not part on everyday speech.
>>>
>>> On 11/2/06, Stefan Björk <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> Ducan wrote something that I've been thinking of as translator:
>>>>> It sounds to me like you're confusing the relationship 'marriage'
>>>>> between two people with the event 'marriage' which is fixed in
>>>>> time.
>>>> In Swedish, this is actually two different words. The relationship
>>>> 'marriage' is called 'äktenskap', and the event 'vigsel' or
>>>> 'giftermål'. Currently, I use the word 'giftermål' which - with some
>>>> violence on the language - could mean both, but in the best of
>>>> worlds, the PO-file should differentiate between those.
>
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Re: Marriage

Alex Roitman
On Fri, 2006-11-03 at 17:49 +0100, Jérôme wrote:

> > Yes, the msgid can contain so called "context" part which can be used to
> > differentiate things which in English are just a one word, but in other
> > languages require several different ones
>
> On gettext 0.15
>
>   - PO files can now contain messages constrained to a certain context.
>     The syntax in the PO file is
>        msgctxt "context"
>        msgid "original"
>        msgstr "translation"
I did not know about this one, we should check it out for the future.

On Fri, 2006-11-03 at 18:15 +0200, Eero Tamminen wrote:
> For example, in this case the new msgids could be:
> "relationship|marriage"
> "event|marriage"

This is the way it can be made work right now.
Stefan, could you please file the bug report on
http://bugs.gramps-project.org on this? We would
need to correct the code first and then the next
pot/po files would see the |-strings.

Alex

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Re: Marriage

Duncan Lithgow
In reply to this post by Don Allingham
On Fri, 2006-11-03 at 05:36 -0700, Don Allingham wrote:
> I think we might have a mechanism that will allow us to distinguish
> between the two.
Don, what do you say to changing the event in english from 'marriage' to
'wedding'. I'm not sure about it myself, but I think it's worth
considering.

Duncan

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Re: Marriage

Alex Roitman
On Fri, 2006-11-03 at 18:46 +0100, Duncan Lithgow wrote:
> On Fri, 2006-11-03 at 05:36 -0700, Don Allingham wrote:
> > I think we might have a mechanism that will allow us to distinguish
> > between the two.
> Don, what do you say to changing the event in english from 'marriage' to
> 'wedding'. I'm not sure about it myself, but I think it's worth
> considering.

The 'type|marriage' and 'event|marriage' will do just fine
for translation. However, now that I typed this, it occurred to me
that there's no conflict: the relationship type is 'Married' and
the event name is 'Marriage'. I think the conflict is completely
imaginary :-)

Alex

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Re: Marriage

jerome
In reply to this post by Alex Roitman
> How the context is marked in the string in the code?  AFAIK the "|"
> I mentioned is just a translation convention adopted from Gnome.

I know ...
It was just new informations !!!
You're right, maybe adding the next part may avoid confusion, but I
don't want to duplicate info ;)

[It also supports the GNOME glib convention to specify the context and
original string in the same string literal: "context|original".
The (non-public) include file gettext.h defines macros pgettext,
dpgettext etc. that take a context argument.]

Eero Tamminen a écrit :

> Hi,
>
> On Friday 03 November 2006 18:53, Alex Roitman wrote:
>>>> Yes, the msgid can contain so called "context" part which can be used
>>>> to differentiate things which in English are just a one word, but in
>>>> other languages require several different ones
>>> On gettext 0.15
>>>
>>>   - PO files can now contain messages constrained to a certain context.
>>>     The syntax in the PO file is
>>>        msgctxt "context"
>>>        msgid "original"
>>>        msgstr "translation"
>
> How the context is marked in the string in the code?  AFAIK the "|"
> I mentioned is just a translation convention adopted from Gnome.
>
>
>> I did not know about this one, we should check it out for the future.
>
> This sounds excellent, with this there should be no need to update
> the other translations, just the code and the translation needing
> the context.
>
>
> - Eero
>
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Re: Marriage

Stefan Björk
In reply to this post by Alex Roitman
> The 'type|marriage' and 'event|marriage' will do just fine
> for translation. However, now that I typed this, it occurred to me
> that there's no conflict: the relationship type is 'Married' and
> the event name is 'Marriage'. I think the conflict is completely
> imaginary :-)

"They married on october 11, 1956..." Relation or event? :-)

Stefan


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Re: Marriage

Duncan Lithgow
Both, like birth. "They were part of an event called 'marriage' and
after that their relationship was 'marriage'. I'm starting to think
'wedding' should be used in the english version:

"Their wedding was October 11, 1956..." I know it's a bit clumsey
because we think of weddings as big affairs not 5 minutes at the
registry - but they're both a wedding right?

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Re: Marriage

Martin Hawlisch
Hi,

that marriage discussion reminds me that GRAMPS still does not provide a distinction between marriage in church and in the civil registration office. This are two different events because they take place at different locations and sometimes not even at the same day.

Some german genealogy apps support that. See:
http://wiki-en.genealogy.net/wiki/Gedcom_5.5EL#TYPE_Subtag_of_the_MARR_Tag


Cheers,
  Martin.

Von: "Duncan Lithgow" <[hidden email]>
Betreff: Re: [Gramps-devel] Marriage

> Both, like birth. "They were part of an event called 'marriage' and
> after that their relationship was 'marriage'. I'm starting to think
> 'wedding' should be used in the english version:
>
> "Their wedding was October 11, 1956..." I know it's a bit clumsey
> because we think of weddings as big affairs not 5 minutes at the
> registry - but they're both a wedding right?

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Re: Marriage

Alex Roitman
In reply to this post by Stefan Björk
On Mon, 2006-11-06 at 08:46 +0100, Stefan Björk wrote:
> > The 'type|marriage' and 'event|marriage' will do just fine
> > for translation. However, now that I typed this, it occurred to me
> > that there's no conflict: the relationship type is 'Married' and
> > the event name is 'Marriage'. I think the conflict is completely
> > imaginary :-)
>
> "They married on october 11, 1956..." Relation or event? :-)

This phrase is easy to translate, it is not ambiguous.

I was talking about translating one-word things like
"Married" and "Marriage" out of context. With the rich
context like your example, translation is not a problem.

In my view, "they married on october 11, 1956..." represents
an event. I could not tell if the couple is in the Married
relationship, because I don't know if there's a Divorce
or a Separation later on. The even of marriage is certain though.

Alex

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In or on a location?

Stefan Björk-2
In reply to this post by Alex Roitman
Alex,

> The 'type|marriage' and 'event|marriage' will do just fine
> for translation. However, now that I typed this, it occurred to me
> that there's no conflict: the relationship type is 'Married' and
> the event name is 'Marriage'. I think the conflict is completely
> imaginary :-)

I guess you are right! I rest my case.

But here's another one that bothers me as a translator:

Places/locations are usually villages, cities, towns or such, and you
usually say "he was born in (the parish of) Östra Husby". However,
sometimes places refers to more specific places such as houses or
churchyards, in which case you would say "he was born on (the property
of) Ovangärstad 1-3".

Now, distinguishing between those two cases requires, I guess, quite a
lot of work (reworking reports and so on). Before asking for this
feature, I'd like to ask two questions:

1. Has this been discussed/considered before in the history of GRAMPS?

2. Is it considered a genealogy standard to only use names of parishes,
villages and so on, and not specific properties?


Stefan

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Re: In or on a location?

Alex Roitman
Stefan,

On Wed, 2006-11-08 at 09:07 +0100, Stefan Björk wrote:
> But here's another one that bothers me as a translator:
>
> Places/locations are usually villages, cities, towns or such, and you
> usually say "he was born in (the parish of) Östra Husby". However,
> sometimes places refers to more specific places such as houses or
> churchyards, in which case you would say "he was born on (the property
> of) Ovangärstad 1-3".

I don't have a good idea on how to handle these well. I am sure
similar problems exist in every language. The problem is, in most
cases it's even hard or impossible to formalize the rules.
The speakers of the language "just know" it, but this does not
always mean a definite algorithm.

> Now, distinguishing between those two cases requires, I guess, quite a
> lot of work (reworking reports and so on). Before asking for this
> feature, I'd like to ask two questions:
>
> 1. Has this been discussed/considered before in the history of GRAMPS?

It has been long ago, but more in a "this is hard" way than any
constructive manner. This is because the problem of human languages
is inherently tough, not because people are lazy :-)

The least evil here may be for the translator to use a less
elegant but more universal form. Something like:
    "he was born at the place called %s"
or:
    "his birth place was %s"
This also solves the problem of cases in those languages that vary
the words based on the case of a noun. The downside is that it looks
less natural then the correct narrative, and more like an official
bureaucratic form. So it is up to translator to eventually decide what
to use.

> 2. Is it considered a genealogy standard to only use names of parishes,
> villages and so on, and not specific properties?

No idea :-)

Alex

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