Multiple given names and surnames (Portuguese)

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Multiple given names and surnames (Portuguese)

SaraI
Hi.

I've started using Gramps to create my family tree and would like to get
some feedback concerning entering people with multiple names (given and
family).

For context, Portuguese names (nowadays) can have a maximum of two given
names and four surnames. Both the given names and the surnames can be simple
(eg. Maria / Silva) or a compound (eg. Maria do Céu / Espírito Santo), which
means a name can end up with more than six words.

In my family, most people have two simple given names (eg. Maria Felisberta)
or one compound given name (Maria do Céu). Most of my family members also
have three surnames: one from the mother, and two from the father (the first
one being from his mother and the second from his father). This becomes
something like:
given name 1: Maria
given name 2: Felisberta
surname 1 (mother's): Pereira
surname 2 (father's mother's): da Silva
surname 3 (father's father's): Dias

I understand it is common practice in Gramps for all the surnames to be
lumped together, but I find it important to distinguish between these
different surnames (it's common to hear things like 'the Pereiras were very
tall, that's why Daniel is tall even though his parents are short' in
reference to a branch of the family), so I insert them separately. I always
mark them as matrilineal and patrilineal (until the early 20th century it
was costumary in Portugal for the paternal surname to come first and the
maternal second, and the change wasn't smooth; not to mention some families
sometimes chose surnames a bit randomly). I then choose the last surname as
the primary one.

Another common practice I see is to create an alternative name and call it
'married name'. But since the names are huge and it's not even mandatory to
add the husband's name (my great-grandmother didn't legally add it, for
example, even if everyone called her by her husband's surname), I simply add
it but mark it as 'marriage' and do not set it as the primary name.

given name 1: Maria
given name 2: Felisberta
surname 1 (mother's): Pereira
surname 2 (father's mother's): da Silva
surname 3 (father's father's - primary family name): Dias
surname 4 (husband's): Coelho

It gives a bit of work breaking up the surnames, but I feel it represents
the identity of each family much better .

My problem is with given names. A compound name such as 'Maria do Céu'
offers no difficulty, but 'Maria' and 'Felisberta' are two independent
names... and I have so far kept statistics of the most common given names in
my family. There's a great gramplet for summarising most common given names
and surnames, but if I lump independent given names, I'll get a rather
meaningless:

Maria do Céu: 1
Maria Felisberta: 1
Felisberta: 1
Maria: 1
Maria Elsa: 1

Instead of:

Maria do Céu: 1
Maria: 3
Felisberta: 2
Elsa: 1

There's only one way I can see of maintaining independent given names
independent, which is to add the second one to the list of surnames, marking
it as 'given name', but that is less than ideal. Although keeping the given
name statistics limited to the first one is better than to have everything
lumped together, it does leave the second given name outside the statistics
completely (even if I find it a lesser evil).

Are there any suggestions? I had my family on an excel sheet that allowed me
to do great graphics over time, depicting how the given name pool became
more diversified, but as I intend to add some lateral branches now that I'm
using Gramps, I really think it's cumbersome to maintain the excel file at
the same time.

Unless, of course, there's a way to quickly export only a list of names to
Excel... but keeping independent and compound names duly identified.

Can someone offer some advice?



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Re: Multiple given names and surnames (Portuguese)

Dave Scheipers
Welcome Saral

Names come in many forms. Gramps lets you determine how and what is
stored for each individual.

First is the Types. The default is the Birth Name. Whether or not you
add an alternative name, is up to you. I do not add a woman's married
name unless it is something different than the expected norm. People
are not born with Titles or professional suffixes so I will add these
to an alternative name.

You can add custom Types if the types set in the default drop-down
list do not suit your needs. But a word of advise, anytime you add
anything custom; Type, Event, etc, these will not translate nor
display in 'narrative' type reports. Mary was born on .... in ....".

Now to the name structure.

The two basics are the Given Name and the Surname. The Given Name is
any name that is not a part of the Surname and would include first and
second or middle names. You can place a given name into the Call field
to isolate which given name is primary especially if it is not the
first given name in the list.

In addition to the Surname, there are Prefix to the Surname, and
Suffix. Suffix is most commonly used for degree or Sr/Jr etc. But it
can also be used for a suffix to a Surname. So you can build an
extended surname by utilizing the prefix and suffix fields for the
parts of the name before or after the 'surname'.

Now to setting how a name displays. The default is set in the Edit >>
Preferences >> Display tab >> Name Format. The drop down list has the
out-of-the box options. But you can add custom options. What you set
here will be what you see in the display and lists. But you can often
change this in reports. You can also change an individual person's
record to do something different than the default. In the person's
edit screen, under the Names tab, by editing the name you can select
an alternate Display name different then the default as well as a
different sort name.

You can move different alternative names into the Preferred name field
by drag-n-dropping names into the Preferred spot. The arrows will work
in the alternative list.

Do not know if any of this helps, Others may have a different take on
how to get the most out of gramps. But exploring the different fields,
I am sure you can get gramps to do what you need.

Dave

On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 9:46 AM, SaraI <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi.
>
> I've started using Gramps to create my family tree and would like to get
> some feedback concerning entering people with multiple names (given and
> family).
>
> For context, Portuguese names (nowadays) can have a maximum of two given
> names and four surnames. Both the given names and the surnames can be simple
> (eg. Maria / Silva) or a compound (eg. Maria do Céu / Espírito Santo), which
> means a name can end up with more than six words.
>
> In my family, most people have two simple given names (eg. Maria Felisberta)
> or one compound given name (Maria do Céu). Most of my family members also
> have three surnames: one from the mother, and two from the father (the first
> one being from his mother and the second from his father). This becomes
> something like:
> given name 1: Maria
> given name 2: Felisberta
> surname 1 (mother's): Pereira
> surname 2 (father's mother's): da Silva
> surname 3 (father's father's): Dias
>
> I understand it is common practice in Gramps for all the surnames to be
> lumped together, but I find it important to distinguish between these
> different surnames (it's common to hear things like 'the Pereiras were very
> tall, that's why Daniel is tall even though his parents are short' in
> reference to a branch of the family), so I insert them separately. I always
> mark them as matrilineal and patrilineal (until the early 20th century it
> was costumary in Portugal for the paternal surname to come first and the
> maternal second, and the change wasn't smooth; not to mention some families
> sometimes chose surnames a bit randomly). I then choose the last surname as
> the primary one.
>
> Another common practice I see is to create an alternative name and call it
> 'married name'. But since the names are huge and it's not even mandatory to
> add the husband's name (my great-grandmother didn't legally add it, for
> example, even if everyone called her by her husband's surname), I simply add
> it but mark it as 'marriage' and do not set it as the primary name.
>
> given name 1: Maria
> given name 2: Felisberta
> surname 1 (mother's): Pereira
> surname 2 (father's mother's): da Silva
> surname 3 (father's father's - primary family name): Dias
> surname 4 (husband's): Coelho
>
> It gives a bit of work breaking up the surnames, but I feel it represents
> the identity of each family much better .
>
> My problem is with given names. A compound name such as 'Maria do Céu'
> offers no difficulty, but 'Maria' and 'Felisberta' are two independent
> names... and I have so far kept statistics of the most common given names in
> my family. There's a great gramplet for summarising most common given names
> and surnames, but if I lump independent given names, I'll get a rather
> meaningless:
>
> Maria do Céu: 1
> Maria Felisberta: 1
> Felisberta: 1
> Maria: 1
> Maria Elsa: 1
>
> Instead of:
>
> Maria do Céu: 1
> Maria: 3
> Felisberta: 2
> Elsa: 1
>
> There's only one way I can see of maintaining independent given names
> independent, which is to add the second one to the list of surnames, marking
> it as 'given name', but that is less than ideal. Although keeping the given
> name statistics limited to the first one is better than to have everything
> lumped together, it does leave the second given name outside the statistics
> completely (even if I find it a lesser evil).
>
> Are there any suggestions? I had my family on an excel sheet that allowed me
> to do great graphics over time, depicting how the given name pool became
> more diversified, but as I intend to add some lateral branches now that I'm
> using Gramps, I really think it's cumbersome to maintain the excel file at
> the same time.
>
> Unless, of course, there's a way to quickly export only a list of names to
> Excel... but keeping independent and compound names duly identified.
>
> Can someone offer some advice?
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://gramps.1791082.n4.nabble.com/GRAMPS-User-f1807095.html
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Gramps-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
> https://gramps-project.org

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Re: Multiple given names and surnames (Portuguese)

SaraI
Thanks about the 'customised events' drawback. I'll keep them in mind.

As for having multiple names, I personally find it distracting (though I
might simply need to get used to it?). The suffixes and titles help me
identify who the person is, so I'll want them to be part of the preferred
name.

I must admit, though, I don't really understand why one should add different
entries for, say, maiden/birth and married name when those names are
virtually the same. Do you mean I should have:

birth name: Maria Felisberta Pereira da Silva Dias
married name: Maria Felisberta Pereira da Silva Dias Coelho

I'm afraid I can't really see the point of having two separate entries since
the most complete entry (in this case, 'married name') would always be the
preferred one, so why not simply have the 'basic name' include the husband's
surname (marked as 'marriage')? Would you mind pointing out the advantage of
having the two?

Thanks,
Sara



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Re: Multiple given names and surnames (Portuguese)

paul womack
SaraI wrote:

> I must admit, though, I don't really understand why one should add different
> entries for, say, maiden/birth and married name when those names are
> virtually the same. Do you mean I should have:
>
> birth name: Maria Felisberta Pereira da Silva Dias
> married name: Maria Felisberta Pereira da Silva Dias Coelho
>
> I'm afraid I can't really see the point of having two separate entries since
> the most complete entry (in this case, 'married name') would always be the
> preferred one, so why not simply have the 'basic name' include the husband's
> surname (marked as 'marriage')? Would you mind pointing out the advantage of
> having the two?

Since most research is done backwards, it is common to find a female
taking part in Death Events, and the Birth Events of here Children, before
you locate the Marriage Event to her Husband. As such you are likely only know
her married name, and gramps allows you to represent this accurately.

When you finally discover her maiden name (always an exciting moment, IMHO) , you have
a choice. You can either edit her family name, and change the drop
down from "Married Name" to "Birth Name"
OR you can create a new name.

it's entirely up to you.

  BugBear

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Re: Multiple given names and surnames (Portuguese)

Dave Scheipers
In reply to this post by SaraI
Maybe I was not clear.

My normal practice is to NOT have an entry for a woman's married name.
I will only create an entry for one if the name is anything other than
what is normally expected such as using a hyphenated name. Except in
these rare occasions and a few others, my records for females will
have just the one name entry; Birth Name. If I have added a Married
Name entry, I would never put it in the Preferred Name slot. The only
time I would have a woman's Preferred name other than her Birth Name
would be if she was adopted or otherwise had her name legally changed
not by marriage. It may be sexist, but I want a woman's maiden name as
the Preferred Name.

Yes, titles and suffixes do help identify individuals. Most of my
research takes me to colonial New England when men were often known by
their rank. My point was the name with the Title attached is something
other than their Birth Name. They were not born Captain John Smith or
John Smith M.D. or John Smith Sr.. So I will have two (or more)
entries, Birth Name = John Smith and Rank = Captain John Smith. I
would put the Rank entry as the Preferred Name as the one displayed
and known by.

And again, Gramps does not tell you how You have to enter your
information. You can have just the one name entry per person which
includes all parts of their name. Before migrating to Gramps, this is
how names were organized in my previous program. Gramps now allows for
the separation of how a person was known throughout their life. I did
not mention in the previous post, but a date can be added to the name
entry. The date they earned the Title 'Captain'.

I think the main things to remember:
-- The Preferred Name is the name that is displayed and used. Any
other names only appear in reports as an aside; "Also known as...."
-- The Preferred name does not have to be the Birth Name.
-- The ability to add alternative names allows the user to finesse and
nuance a person's name throughout their entire life from Birth to
grave. How much we take advantage of this capability is totally up to
each of us.

I hope this helped, Dave

On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 12:05 PM, SaraI <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks about the 'customised events' drawback. I'll keep them in mind.
>
> As for having multiple names, I personally find it distracting (though I
> might simply need to get used to it?). The suffixes and titles help me
> identify who the person is, so I'll want them to be part of the preferred
> name.
>
> I must admit, though, I don't really understand why one should add different
> entries for, say, maiden/birth and married name when those names are
> virtually the same. Do you mean I should have:
>
> birth name: Maria Felisberta Pereira da Silva Dias
> married name: Maria Felisberta Pereira da Silva Dias Coelho
>
> I'm afraid I can't really see the point of having two separate entries since
> the most complete entry (in this case, 'married name') would always be the
> preferred one, so why not simply have the 'basic name' include the husband's
> surname (marked as 'marriage')? Would you mind pointing out the advantage of
> having the two?
>
> Thanks,
> Sara
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://gramps.1791082.n4.nabble.com/GRAMPS-User-f1807095.html
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Gramps-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
> https://gramps-project.org

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Re: Multiple given names and surnames (Portuguese)

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by SaraI
On 01/15/2018 11:14 AM, paul womack wrote:

> SaraI wrote:
>> I must admit, though, I don't really understand why one should add different
>> entries for, say, maiden/birth and married name when those names are
>> virtually the same. Do you mean I should have:
>>
>> birth name: Maria Felisberta Pereira da Silva Dias
>> married name: Maria Felisberta Pereira da Silva Dias Coelho
>>
>> I'm afraid I can't really see the point of having two separate entries since
>> the most complete entry (in this case, 'married name') would always be the
>> preferred one, so why not simply have the 'basic name' include the husband's
>> surname (marked as 'marriage')? Would you mind pointing out the advantage of
>> having the two?
>
> Since most research is done backwards, it is common to find a female
> taking part in Death Events, and the Birth Events of here Children, before
> you locate the Marriage Event to her Husband. As such you are likely only
> know
> her married name, and gramps allows you to represent this accurately.
>
> When you finally discover her maiden name (always an exciting moment,
> IMHO) , you have
> a choice. You can either edit her family name, and change the drop
> down from "Married Name" to "Birth Name"
> OR you can create a new name.

This is exactly what I do when knowing the Married Name before the Birth Name.

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Re: Multiple given names and surnames (Portuguese)

SaraI
In reply to this post by paul womack
paul womack wrote

> Since most research is done backwards, it is common to find a female
> taking part in Death Events, and the Birth Events of here Children, before
> you locate the Marriage Event to her Husband. As such you are likely only
> know
> her married name, and gramps allows you to represent this accurately.
>
> When you finally discover her maiden name (always an exciting moment,
> IMHO) , you have
> a choice. You can either edit her family name, and change the drop
> down from "Married Name" to "Birth Name"
> OR you can create a new name.

Oh, I see.

Yes, it does make sense. I'm not going too far back (only to my
great-grandparents), and I'm getting all the information from relatives. One
of my grandmothers alone had 13 children (who lived to adulthood and had
children of their own), and my objective is simply to keep track of the
cousins. We're well into the hundreds. That's why I never came across any
situation similar to what you describe.






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Re: Multiple given names and surnames (Portuguese)

SaraI
In reply to this post by Dave Scheipers
Dave Scheipers wrote

> My normal practice is to NOT have an entry for a woman's married name.
> I will only create an entry for one if the name is anything other than
> what is normally expected such as using a hyphenated name. Except in
> these rare occasions and a few others, my records for females will
> have just the one name entry; Birth Name. If I have added a Married
> Name entry, I would never put it in the Preferred Name slot. The only
> time I would have a woman's Preferred name other than her Birth Name
> would be if she was adopted or otherwise had her name legally changed
> not by marriage. It may be sexist, but I want a woman's maiden name as
> the Preferred Name.

I get it. I don't think your option is sexist at all, though. I keep 'maiden
surnames' as the married women's primary surname, even if that means they'll
be grouped with their father and siblings, rather than her husband (I figure
one is someone's daughter and sibling for life; being a wife is often less
permanent).


Dave Scheipers wrote
> Gramps now allows for the separation of how a person was known throughout
> their life. I did
> not mention in the previous post, but a date can be added to the name
> entry. The date they earned the Title 'Captain'.

I was not aware of that, and yes, now I see how useful that is for titles.

Thanks.



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