Name 'origin' and ordering - 2 issues

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Name 'origin' and ordering - 2 issues

Oldest1

Running Gramps 4.2.6-1 AIO 64-bit under Windows 10

For the first time in entering names for some people in my data, I have run into and tried to enter a patronymic last name.

All went well enough, but when I tried to find the person in my list of people, I could not locate the individual.

As it turns out, and quite counter-intuitively for myself,  the name was listed at the top of the people list, at the bottom of all those whose last name is (currently) unknown.

If I change the origin field to blank, the name shows up where I would expect it.

So there is something I don't understand :-(

Can someone explain the reasoning behind this attribute affecting the place of the person/name in the list?

Or is it a bug? Sort of seems like it, because ...

If I change the 'origin' to almost anything else - I haven't exhaustively tested all combinations, except matrilineal, feudal - the name appears in the proper - i.e. the expected alphabetical place in the list.

----------------
A second issue along these same lines:
Apparently at some time in the past, I managed to add a new item to this 'origin' list - it ended up as one of the last names used in my db.
How or where can I remove this name/item?

TIA

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Re: Name 'origin' and ordering - 2 issues

enno
Hello,

> Running Gramps 4.2.6-1 AIO 64-bit under Windows 10
>
> For the first time in entering names for some people in my data, I
> have run into and tried to enter a patronymic last name.
>
> All went well enough, but when I tried to find the person in my list
> of people, I could not locate the individual.
>
> As it turns out, and quite counter-intuitively for myself,  the name
> was listed at the top of the people list, at the bottom of all those
> whose last name is (currently) unknown.
>
> If I change the origin field to blank, the name shows up where I would
> expect it.
>
> So there is something I don't understand :-(
>
> Can someone explain the reasoning behind this attribute affecting the
> place of the person/name in the list?
>
I suspect that the sorting of the people list is affected by the name
display options that you set in preferences. Can you check what format
you have there? I know that you can use patronymic names in those
options, but I never really tried those here.

> Or is it a bug? Sort of seems like it, because ...
>
> If I change the 'origin' to almost anything else - I haven't
> exhaustively tested all combinations, except matrilineal, feudal - the
> name appears in the proper - i.e. the expected alphabetical place in
> the list.
>
I don't run 4.2.6 here, so I can't reproduce your findings easily, but
if you still see odd things after trying the name display options, you
may have hit a bug. I plead that you try these options before filing
anything.

Regards,

Enno


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Re: Name 'origin' and ordering - 2 issues

Oldest1
In reply to this post by Oldest1

Thank you, Enno - fixing the 'preferences' helped, but ... see below

On 11/12/2017 3:10 AM, Enno Borgsteede wrote:
Hello,

Running Gramps 4.2.6-1 AIO 64-bit under Windows 10

----------------8X------------------------
So there is something I don't understand :-(

Can someone explain the reasoning behind this attribute affecting the place of the person/name in the list?

I suspect that the sorting of the people list is affected by the name display options that you set in preferences. Can you check what format you have there? I know that you can use patronymic names in those options, but I never really tried those here.
In Preferences -> Display, the checkbox 'Consider single pa/matronymic as surname' was not checked.
When I check it, the name appears in the list, sort of, as expected, but ... :-)

In the case of some old German records, a woman patronymic name was used, at times, apparently, throughout her life time - at least in official records.
The problem with the current arrangement is that, if the patronymic name is used when adding her to the database, it separates a daughter from her father's family, because of course, the names are distinct, although they will generally be adjacent in the list.
And yet, she will be referred to by her patronymic name often enough in official documents.
One possible way to handle such a situation, would be to, rather than identifying the name she would be knows as by now - i.e. her father's name without the suffix, add a separate field, which can then be identified with the desired attribute.

Although I have no specific individual with the Russian or Polish patronymic names, I am sure those case would present similar issues.
For German names, the patronymic is indicated by the simple suffix 'in'.
For Russian names, AFAIK, it is a bit more complex.

If any one else has a better way of handling these cases, I would be very interested in finding out more.

TIA
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Re: Name 'origin' and ordering - 2 issues

Dave Scheipers
There may be another way to address the issue.

Think of the setting in preferences as the norm for the database.
Using the Name editor you can accommodate the anomaly/unique
situation.

You can go into the Names editor (the Names tab in the person edit
screen) and double click on the Preferred Name (or any alternate name)
to bring up the editor. At the bottom you can alter on a case by case
basis a different list or display option different than the master
option set in preferences.

You may still have to try different options to display this person
correctly, but you are no longer making changes to the entire database
to accommodate one or a few records.

I am sure, this name edit option is not widely known. Just putting it
out there as something to look at to solve your issues.

Dave


On Sun, Nov 12, 2017 at 1:15 PM,  <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thank you, Enno - fixing the 'preferences' helped, but ... see below
>
> On 11/12/2017 3:10 AM, Enno Borgsteede wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> Running Gramps 4.2.6-1 AIO 64-bit under Windows 10
>
> ----------------8X------------------------
>
> So there is something I don't understand :-(
>
> Can someone explain the reasoning behind this attribute affecting the place
> of the person/name in the list?
>
> I suspect that the sorting of the people list is affected by the name
> display options that you set in preferences. Can you check what format you
> have there? I know that you can use patronymic names in those options, but I
> never really tried those here.
>
> In Preferences -> Display, the checkbox 'Consider single pa/matronymic as
> surname' was not checked.
> When I check it, the name appears in the list, sort of, as expected, but ...
> :-)
>
> In the case of some old German records, a woman patronymic name was used, at
> times, apparently, throughout her life time - at least in official records.
> The problem with the current arrangement is that, if the patronymic name is
> used when adding her to the database, it separates a daughter from her
> father's family, because of course, the names are distinct, although they
> will generally be adjacent in the list.
> And yet, she will be referred to by her patronymic name often enough in
> official documents.
> One possible way to handle such a situation, would be to, rather than
> identifying the name she would be knows as by now - i.e. her father's name
> without the suffix, add a separate field, which can then be identified with
> the desired attribute.
>
> Although I have no specific individual with the Russian or Polish patronymic
> names, I am sure those case would present similar issues.
> For German names, the patronymic is indicated by the simple suffix 'in'.
> For Russian names, AFAIK, it is a bit more complex.
>
> If any one else has a better way of handling these cases, I would be very
> interested in finding out more.
>
> TIA
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Gramps-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
> https://gramps-project.org

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Re: Name 'origin' and ordering - 2 issues

Oldest1
In reply to this post by Oldest1

Thank you, Dave.

I had been looking at this 'name editor' previously but had not been able to really make heads or tails of it.

Using it, I have been able to accomplish what I wanted by adding a second name without the patronymic suffix and marking it as the 'primary'.

This sorts the individual in the 'proper' - i. e. expected place in the list.

Arnold

PS: I still think that the apparently major difference between the handling of patronymic and the other options does not make sense and if it does, it needs a better explanation than I have been able to find. :-)


On 11/12/2017 11:43 AM, Dave Scheipers wrote:
There may be another way to address the issue.

Think of the setting in preferences as the norm for the database.
Using the Name editor you can accommodate the anomaly/unique
situation.

You can go into the Names editor (the Names tab in the person edit
screen) and double click on the Preferred Name (or any alternate name)
to bring up the editor. At the bottom you can alter on a case by case
basis a different list or display option different than the master
option set in preferences.

You may still have to try different options to display this person
correctly, but you are no longer making changes to the entire database
to accommodate one or a few records.

I am sure, this name edit option is not widely known. Just putting it
out there as something to look at to solve your issues.

Dave


On Sun, Nov 12, 2017 at 1:15 PM,  [hidden email] wrote:
Thank you, Enno - fixing the 'preferences' helped, but ... see below

On 11/12/2017 3:10 AM, Enno Borgsteede wrote:

Hello,

Running Gramps 4.2.6-1 AIO 64-bit under Windows 10

----------------8X------------------------

So there is something I don't understand :-(

Can someone explain the reasoning behind this attribute affecting the place
of the person/name in the list?

I suspect that the sorting of the people list is affected by the name
display options that you set in preferences. Can you check what format you
have there? I know that you can use patronymic names in those options, but I
never really tried those here.

In Preferences -> Display, the checkbox 'Consider single pa/matronymic as
surname' was not checked.
When I check it, the name appears in the list, sort of, as expected, but ...
:-)

In the case of some old German records, a woman patronymic name was used, at
times, apparently, throughout her life time - at least in official records.
The problem with the current arrangement is that, if the patronymic name is
used when adding her to the database, it separates a daughter from her
father's family, because of course, the names are distinct, although they
will generally be adjacent in the list.
And yet, she will be referred to by her patronymic name often enough in
official documents.
One possible way to handle such a situation, would be to, rather than
identifying the name she would be knows as by now - i.e. her father's name
without the suffix, add a separate field, which can then be identified with
the desired attribute.

Although I have no specific individual with the Russian or Polish patronymic
names, I am sure those case would present similar issues.
For German names, the patronymic is indicated by the simple suffix 'in'.
For Russian names, AFAIK, it is a bit more complex.

If any one else has a better way of handling these cases, I would be very
interested in finding out more.

TIA

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