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New mailing list and forum software

GRAMPS - Dev mailing list
Hello everyone,

I'd like to take this opportunity to wish you all a Happy New Year.

In an effort to modernise the we communicate, we have decided to trial
Discourse as our new mailing list and forum software.

You can sign up for an account here:

https://gramps.discourse.group

During the trial new users must be approved so please use a real name,
username or email address that we can recognise from our mailing lists. 
I have enabled GitHub as a login method once you have created an account.

The setup has been kept simple to start with using many default values. 
However, we can change settings or add new categories if required.  For
example, we could have a category for family history and genealogy
discussion that is not directly Gramps related, or perhaps a category
for feature requests where users could "like" their favourite proposed
enhancements.

Please start using the new software and let us know what you think. 
Hopefully it should provide the benefits of both a forum and mailing
list software.

Regards,


Nick.





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Re: New mailing list and forum software

enno

Hi Nick,

Please start using the new software and let us know what you think.  Hopefully it should provide the benefits of both a forum and mailing list software.

When I read the instructions on the blog, it looks like you can only start new threads on site, or with the app, and if that's true, I'm out.

I have tried lots of forums, and have found that, eventually, they all drive me away.

Regards,

Enno




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Re: New mailing list and forum software

GRAMPS - Dev mailing list
Enno,

It looks like Discourse supports this... if configured to do so.

It is a 2 stage process for the Admin to configure the capability.  First, the admin has to enable reply by eMail.  (This is apparently done since I've done a reply that way already.) 

The next step looks a bit gnarly for the admin. And it requires the sender have a recognized sender eMail which is linked to a Discouse User which has been authorized to create topics by eMail.

Then SUPPOSEDLY, we'll just email to a Group address (like Development & Support) the new Topic will be created. Shouldn't be too disimilar to what we do now.... if it works.

Will have to dig in to check that.  And if that is the case, the Maillist mode of Discourse needs a footer link in every outbound message withe the eMail address for starting a new Topic in the Group.  Configuring a new system is always Fun. Fun. Fun.




On Thursday, January 2, 2020, 3:06:18 PM CST, Enno Borgsteede <[hidden email]> wrote:


Hi Nick,

Please start using the new software and let us know what you think.  Hopefully it should provide the benefits of both a forum and mailing list software.

When I read the instructions on the blog, it looks like you can only start new threads on site, or with the app, and if that's true, I'm out.

I have tried lots of forums, and have found that, eventually, they all drive me away.


Regards,

Enno


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Re: New mailing list and forum software

GRAMPS - Dev mailing list
On 02/01/2020 21:28, Emyoulation--- via Gramps-devel wrote:
> Will have to dig in to check that.  And if that is the case, the
> Maillist mode of Discourse needs a footer link in every outbound
> message withe the eMail address for starting a new Topic in the
> Group.  Configuring a new system is always Fun. Fun. Fun.
>
I'm looking into it.

I've enabled the setting and tried to set an incoming email address of
[hidden email] for the Feedback category.  It's not
working at the moment.

Nick.




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Re: New mailing list and forum software

GRAMPS - Dev mailing list
it auto-rejects emails with a Subject but no body. (Good!)

But it also rejected my next attempt because I had insufficient rights (Bad!)

The Gramps Project (Discourse Forum & Mailing List) <[hidden email]>
Jan 2 at 3:47 PM

We’re sorry, but your email message to [“[hidden email]”] (titled Re: test) didn’t work.

Your account does not have the required trust level to post new topics to this email address. If you believe this is an error, contact a staff member.



On Thursday, January 2, 2020, 3:35:30 PM CST, Nick Hall via Gramps-devel <[hidden email]> wrote:


On 02/01/2020 21:28, Emyoulation--- via Gramps-devel wrote:
> Will have to dig in to check that.  And if that is the case, the
> Maillist mode of Discourse needs a footer link in every outbound
> message withe the eMail address for starting a new Topic in the
> Group.  Configuring a new system is always Fun. Fun. Fun.
>
I'm looking into it.

I've enabled the setting and tried to set an incoming email address of
[hidden email] for the Feedback category.  It's not
working at the moment.


Nick.




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Re: New mailing list and forum software

GRAMPS - Dev mailing list
In reply to this post by GRAMPS - Dev mailing list
On 02/01/2020 21:34, Nick Hall via Gramps-devel wrote:
> I've enabled the setting and tried to set an incoming email address of
> [hidden email] for the Feedback category.  It's not
> working at the moment.

It is now possible to create topics in the Support, Development and
Feedback categories via email.  Post to one of the following addresses:

[hidden email]

[hidden email]

[hidden email]

As an anti-spam precaution you must be trust level 2 (member) to create
topics via email.  Getting to level 2 is quite easy, but I'll promote
anyone on this list that would like instant access to this functionality.


Nick.




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Re: New mailing list and forum software

GRAMPS - Dev mailing list
a recommendation.  lets change the 'support' Group & eMailbox to a different word with less baggage.  That word sets a service level expectation that is at odds with our community driven system. 

How about Forum or Users?  the domain already adds the context of "gramps.discourse.group"

On Thursday, January 2, 2020, 4:17:57 PM CST, Nick Hall via Gramps-devel <[hidden email]> wrote:


On 02/01/2020 21:34, Nick Hall via Gramps-devel wrote:
> I've enabled the setting and tried to set an incoming email address of
> [hidden email] for the Feedback category.  It's not
> working at the moment.

It is now possible to create topics in the Support, Development and
Feedback categories via email.  Post to one of the following addresses:

[hidden email]

[hidden email]

[hidden email]

As an anti-spam precaution you must be trust level 2 (member) to create
topics via email.  Getting to level 2 is quite easy, but I'll promote
anyone on this list that would like instant access to this functionality.



Nick.




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Re: New mailing list and forum software

Tim Lyons
Administrator
In reply to this post by GRAMPS - Dev mailing list
GRAMPS - Dev mailing list wrote
> In an effort to modernise the we communicate, we have decided to trial
> Discourse as our new mailing list and forum software.
>
> You can sign up for an account here:
>
> https://gramps.discourse.group


I tried clicking on the link, but it came up in German(? or something
similar) ("

    Aktuell
    Angesagt
    Kategorien

") and with thread titles like "Testing for atopic allergies in Discourse".

Is that normal/expected?



--
Sent from: http://gramps.1791082.n4.nabble.com/GRAMPS-Dev-f1791083.html


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Re: New mailing list and forum software

GRAMPS - Dev mailing list
On 03/01/2020 11:37, Tim Lyons wrote:
You can sign up for an account here:

https://gramps.discourse.group
I tried clicking on the link, but it came up in German(? or something
similar) ("

    Aktuell
    Angesagt
    Kategorien

") 

Interesting.  It should try to detect the language from your browser settings.  In your case it is obviously getting it wrong for some reason.

When you create an account you can select your preferred language.


and with thread titles like "Testing for atopic allergies in Discourse".

Is that normal/expected?


Yes.  There are only two test threads and a thread about the mailing list mode at the moment.


Nick.




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Re: New mailing list and forum software

enno
In reply to this post by Tim Lyons

Hi Tim,

I tried clicking on the link, but it came up in German(? or something
similar) ("

    Aktuell
    Angesagt
    Kategorien

") and with thread titles like "Testing for atopic allergies in Discourse".

Is that normal/expected?

The German is abnormal. I get a Dutch interface here, and I assume that you should have an English one.

That thread is sort of normal, meaning that it was created by a fellow Gramps user.

I don't know about the allergies in Discourse, but I do know that I am allergic to it. Web forums are noisy environments that I try to avoid at all cost. I rarely have questions about Gramps, and only use the lists to help others, but if that means that I have to work in an environment that I'm truly allergic to, as an autist, I will quit instead.

Regards,

Enno




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Re: New mailing list and forum software

GRAMPS - Dev mailing list
In reply to this post by GRAMPS - Dev mailing list
On 03/01/2020 11:35, Nick Hall via Gramps-devel wrote:
It should try to detect the language from your browser settings.


We have set the following option in the configuration settings, which I note is experimental:

set locale from accept language header

set interface language for anonymous users from their web browser's language headers. (EXPERIMENTAL, does not work with anonymous cache)


Nick.




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Re: New mailing list and forum software

enno
In reply to this post by GRAMPS - Dev mailing list
Op 02-01-2020 om 22:28 schreef [hidden email]:
Then SUPPOSEDLY, we'll just email to a Group address (like Development & Support) the new Topic will be created. Shouldn't be too disimilar to what we do now.... if it works.

It doesn't. I wrote a simple test message to the development address mentioned by Nick, and it was rejected because the title was too short.

I was diagnosed with autism 5 years ago, and it's a condition that I've lived with for almost 60 years now. I could survive then, because we had simple newsgroups for all kinds of stuff, and the world looked pretty structured, with genealogy newsgroups for the Benelux, England, France, Germany, software, etc. etc.

Today, every idiot can create his own web based forum, with dozens of separate subject areas, which means that I have to work through dozens of different interfaces, and visit a dozen different sites for genealogy in The Netherlands alone. And then there's also dozens of Facebook groups, and it's all pull, so I really have to 'go' to all the bloody sites, and weed trough all the threaded mess. And although web 'surfing' once sounded fun, it's not for me.

Today, I am 'enjoying' the last day of a 3 week holiday, and it made me realize that I am truly fed up with all the noise.

Regards,

Enno




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Re: New mailing list and forum software

GRAMPS - Dev mailing list
On 03/01/2020 13:36, Enno Borgsteede wrote:
Op 02-01-2020 om 22:28 schreef [hidden email]:
Then SUPPOSEDLY, we'll just email to a Group address (like Development & Support) the new Topic will be created. Shouldn't be too disimilar to what we do now.... if it works.

It doesn't. I wrote a simple test message to the development address mentioned by Nick, and it was rejected because the title was too short.

This is configurable.  The current settings require a title length between 15 and 255 characters and a minimum post length of 20 characters.

There are also some additional anti-spam options enabled.

Does this cause any problems?


Nick.




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Re: New mailing list and forum software

GRAMPS - Dev mailing list
In reply to this post by enno
I concur with your observations.

The Discourse interface IS 'busy' and non-linear.  And I started with that site this morning and felt unsure if I'd read all the new postings after 20 minutes of browsing effort.

Then I opened eMail and was confident I'd read all Gramps-related threads in 5 minutes. (My Discourse is in 'mailing list mode'... at least until someone clicks the 'unsubscribe' link in the enhancement request I posted.  That cut&pasted link is user specific.)

And now that I've reviewed all the maillist postings, I can still find the ones I want to go back & answer. (Unlike Facebook where the feed changes as you read and that which you read may never be found again.) Discourse DOES have a 'latest' feed but apparently, it is only by Group, not Topic or posting.

My discomfort might be the learning curve. But that is what appeals about the maillist. There is NO learning curve interfering with the information exchange. Virtually everyone has an email client where they are already experienced.

-Brian

On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 7:36, Enno Borgsteede
Op 02-01-2020 om 22:28 schreef [hidden email]:
Then SUPPOSEDLY, we'll just email to a Group address (like Development & Support) the new Topic will be created. Shouldn't be too disimilar to what we do now.... if it works.

It doesn't. I wrote a simple test message to the development address mentioned by Nick, and it was rejected because the title was too short.

I was diagnosed with autism 5 years ago, and it's a condition that I've lived with for almost 60 years now. I could survive then, because we had simple newsgroups for all kinds of stuff, and the world looked pretty structured, with genealogy newsgroups for the Benelux, England, France, Germany, software, etc. etc.

Today, every idiot can create his own web based forum, with dozens of separate subject areas, which means that I have to work through dozens of different interfaces, and visit a dozen different sites for genealogy in The Netherlands alone. And then there's also dozens of Facebook groups, and it's all pull, so I really have to 'go' to all the bloody sites, and weed trough all the threaded mess. And although web 'surfing' once sounded fun, it's not for me.

Today, I am 'enjoying' the last day of a 3 week holiday, and it made me realize that I am truly fed up with all the noise.

Regards,

Enno




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Re: New mailing list and forum software

enno
In reply to this post by GRAMPS - Dev mailing list
Op 03-01-2020 om 15:13 schreef Nick Hall via Gramps-devel:
On 03/01/2020 13:36, Enno Borgsteede wrote:
Op 02-01-2020 om 22:28 schreef [hidden email]:
Then SUPPOSEDLY, we'll just email to a Group address (like Development & Support) the new Topic will be created. Shouldn't be too disimilar to what we do now.... if it works.

It doesn't. I wrote a simple test message to the development address mentioned by Nick, and it was rejected because the title was too short.

This is configurable.  The current settings require a title length between 15 and 255 characters and a minimum post length of 20 characters.

There are also some additional anti-spam options enabled.

Does this cause any problems?

Well, I think that it does for the title. I can imagine that when people see a problem, they might simply send a message with the subject 'crash', or 'GEDCOM'. And my experience with search engines is that when only long terms are accepted, it is more difficult to find relevant results, because the longer the search term, the less likely it is to find matching results.

Like I wrote before, my main problem is the noise caused by the interface. And I don't say web interface, because in mail list mode, the interface is noisy too.

Regards,

Enno




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Re: New mailing list and forum software

GRAMPS - Dev mailing list
On 03/01/2020 14:48, Enno Borgsteede wrote:

>>
>> Does this cause any problems?
>>
> Well, I think that it does for the title. I can imagine that when
> people see a problem, they might simply send a message with the
> subject 'crash', or 'GEDCOM'. And my experience with search engines is
> that when only long terms are accepted, it is more difficult to find
> relevant results, because the longer the search term, the less likely
> it is to find matching results.
>

I'd like to encourage people to be more descriptive with titles, but we
can change the settings if we prefer short titles.


> Like I wrote before, my main problem is the noise caused by the
> interface. And I don't say web interface, because in mail list mode,
> the interface is noisy too.
>

The interface is fully customisable.  What changes would you like to see?


Nick.




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Re: New mailing list and forum software

enno
Op 03-01-2020 om 16:30 schreef Nick Hall via Gramps-devel:
On 03/01/2020 14:48, Enno Borgsteede wrote:

Does this cause any problems?

Well, I think that it does for the title. I can imagine that when people see a problem, they might simply send a message with the subject 'crash', or 'GEDCOM'. And my experience with search engines is that when only long terms are accepted, it is more difficult to find relevant results, because the longer the search term, the less likely it is to find matching results.


I'd like to encourage people to be more descriptive with titles, but we can change the settings if we prefer short titles.

I understand the idea, but when encouraging becomes a demand, I walk away. Sometimes, people really don't know how to phrase things, and experience says that when I get an email saying that the title is too short, they give up.

In today's world, where information is abundant, people give up when loading a web site takes longer than a second or so, and many give up simply because they need to register.



Like I wrote before, my main problem is the noise caused by the interface. And I don't say web interface, because in mail list mode, the interface is noisy too.


The interface is fully customisable.  What changes would you like to see?

Apart from the things mentioned by Phil, I like to get rid of the top posting, meaning that when someone replies, the reply is displayed on top. That's backwards, literally.

Another thing, that I haven't tested yet, is that I bet that I can't quote text like I do now, without messing things up quite a bit.

Regards,

Enno

P.S. I don't think that FB would be a good idea either.




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Re: New mailing list and forum software

GRAMPS - Dev mailing list
On 03/01/2020 19:17, Enno Borgsteede wrote:
>> I'd like to encourage people to be more descriptive with titles, but
>> we can change the settings if we prefer short titles.
>
> I understand the idea, but when encouraging becomes a demand, I walk
> away. Sometimes, people really don't know how to phrase things, and
> experience says that when I get an email saying that the title is too
> short, they give up.
>

As I said, we are using the default settings.  Part of the purpose of
the trial period is to see what settings suit us best.


> In today's world, where information is abundant, people give up when
> loading a web site takes longer than a second or so, and many give up
> simply because they need to register.
>
I agree that people may give up, but I think we should require signing
up to post as we do with the mailing lists at present.


Nick.




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Re: New mailing list and forum software

GRAMPS - Dev mailing list
In reply to this post by enno
On 03/01/2020 19:17, Enno Borgsteede wrote:
>> The interface is fully customisable.  What changes would you like to
>> see?
>
> Apart from the things mentioned by Phil, I like to get rid of the top
> posting, meaning that when someone replies, the reply is displayed on
> top. That's backwards, literally.
>
I can't find a post of Phil's which suggests changes to the format.

I don't like top posting either.  Discourse displays newer posts at the
bottom by default.  We have no control over top posting on the mailing
lists - I suppose we could introduce a policy.


> Another thing, that I haven't tested yet, is that I bet that I can't
> quote text like I do now, without messing things up quite a bit.
>

It's certainly worth testing.  My guess is that it will work with a
single quote per reply, but you may have problems with multiple quotes.


Nick.




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Re: New mailing list and forum software

Steve Youngs
On 03/01/2020 19:48, Nick Hall via Gramps-devel wrote:

> On 03/01/2020 19:17, Enno Borgsteede wrote:
>>> The interface is fully customisable. What changes would you like to
>>> see?
>>
>> Apart from the things mentioned by Phil, I like to get rid of the top
>> posting, meaning that when someone replies, the reply is displayed on
>> top. That's backwards, literally.
>>
> I can't find a post of Phil's which suggests changes to the format.
>
> I don't like top posting either.  Discourse displays newer posts at
> the bottom by default.  We have no control over top posting on the
> mailing lists - I suppose we could introduce a policy.
>
In defence of top posting, it is more convenient on a phone.

Steve



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