Nicknames and call names

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Nicknames and call names

Don Allingham
I have been dreading this message for a while. So, before I get started,
I want to kind of lay down the ground rules for the debate. We are
trying to produce a generic solution that will address a wide range of
problems. It is doubtful that we can meet everyone's demands 100%.
Typically in the past, when we've had discussions like this, they have
tended to degrade quickly, and I do not want that to happen. If someone
has a better proposal, please post it, but you need to make sure you
handle the broad cases, not just your own concerns.

A solution has be workable for a wide range of solutions, needs to be
easy enough to understand for your Aunt Martha, and needs to provide
information in a way that we can used in intelligently both in display
and in reports.

Call names seem to mean different things in different parts of the
world. Some definitions are below.

1) The call name follows specific legal rules, where the name should
    be underlined in documents, and the call name must be a one of the
    names in the given name. So, applying this to my name of "Donald
    Norman", the call name would be "Donald". This is the example given
    by Joachim, and applies to Germany and several other countries.

2) The call name can be a subset of a person's name, as pointed out by
    Richard Bos. I'm not sure what the legal status of this is, but as
    Richard pointed out, his name is "Richardus" but the call name is
    "Richard". I'm not sure if underlining is required. However, I'm
    pretty sure that "Richard" cannot be considered to be a nickname.

3) The call name is different from a person's legal given name. For
    example, someone with the legal name of "Lawrence" will typically
    have the call name of "Larry", which is not a subset of any name.
    Again, this would not be viewed as a nickname.

Some areas of the world need the call name underlined; other areas of
the world do not have this requirement.

Now, some will say that #2 and #3 are not valid call names, Some will
say at only #3 is not a valid call name. Some will say that all are
valid call names. And it may depend on where you live as to what you
consider to be a valid call name.

So, the proposal is:

1) Nicknames will be stored as Attributes. More than one Nickname can
   be specified. The definition of a Nickname is up to you. Data in a
   Nickname field in a GEDCOM file will be imported as an attribute.

2) An additional field, called "Call Name" will be added to the Name.
   The definition of the contents of this field will be left up to the
   user.

3) Reports will have the option of using Formal Names (GivenName Surname)
   or Informal Names (Callname Surname) in their reports. Similarly, a
   report may choose to use the CallName or the GivenName as a short form
   in the report. The report may choose to give the user the option to
   select.

4) The reports will have the option of allowing the call name to be
   underlined in a full formal name if the call name is a subset of the
   given name.

Don

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Re: Nicknames and call names

bm-7
This looks great from a Belgian point of view.

As we have ID cards, I suppose all this legal stuff about call names
(underlining or rules how to use it) is unnecessary here, you just push
your ID
under the nose of whoever needs it (even in church when you marry or stand
witness).

I would just like to point out that option 3) of the call name can be
even more
extreme, like Enrico being called Julio (I have several of these in my Italian
family where people were forced by tradition to give a certain given name, but
as a sort of protest the mother kept using the name that has her preference).
Formal documents have given name, informal call name, and person likes to be
addressed with the call name.
This is all perfectly possible in the proposal.

Benny


Quoting Don Allingham <[hidden email]>:

> I have been dreading this message for a while. So, before I get started,
> I want to kind of lay down the ground rules for the debate. We are
> trying to produce a generic solution that will address a wide range of
> problems. It is doubtful that we can meet everyone's demands 100%.
> Typically in the past, when we've had discussions like this, they have
> tended to degrade quickly, and I do not want that to happen. If someone
> has a better proposal, please post it, but you need to make sure you
> handle the broad cases, not just your own concerns.
>
> A solution has be workable for a wide range of solutions, needs to be
> easy enough to understand for your Aunt Martha, and needs to provide
> information in a way that we can used in intelligently both in display
> and in reports.
>
> Call names seem to mean different things in different parts of the
> world. Some definitions are below.
>
> 1) The call name follows specific legal rules, where the name should
>    be underlined in documents, and the call name must be a one of the
>    names in the given name. So, applying this to my name of "Donald
>    Norman", the call name would be "Donald". This is the example given
>    by Joachim, and applies to Germany and several other countries.
>
> 2) The call name can be a subset of a person's name, as pointed out by
>    Richard Bos. I'm not sure what the legal status of this is, but as
>    Richard pointed out, his name is "Richardus" but the call name is
>    "Richard". I'm not sure if underlining is required. However, I'm
>    pretty sure that "Richard" cannot be considered to be a nickname.
>
> 3) The call name is different from a person's legal given name. For
>    example, someone with the legal name of "Lawrence" will typically
>    have the call name of "Larry", which is not a subset of any name.
>    Again, this would not be viewed as a nickname.
>
> Some areas of the world need the call name underlined; other areas of
> the world do not have this requirement.
>
> Now, some will say that #2 and #3 are not valid call names, Some will
> say at only #3 is not a valid call name. Some will say that all are
> valid call names. And it may depend on where you live as to what you
> consider to be a valid call name.
>
> So, the proposal is:
>
> 1) Nicknames will be stored as Attributes. More than one Nickname can
>   be specified. The definition of a Nickname is up to you. Data in a
>   Nickname field in a GEDCOM file will be imported as an attribute.
>
> 2) An additional field, called "Call Name" will be added to the Name.
>   The definition of the contents of this field will be left up to the
>   user.
>
> 3) Reports will have the option of using Formal Names (GivenName Surname)
>   or Informal Names (Callname Surname) in their reports. Similarly, a
>   report may choose to use the CallName or the GivenName as a short form
>   in the report. The report may choose to give the user the option to
>   select.
>
> 4) The reports will have the option of allowing the call name to be
>   underlined in a full formal name if the call name is a subset of the
>   given name.
>
> Don
>



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Re: Nicknames, call names, "Rüfname" and preferred names...

Duncan Lithgow
In reply to this post by Don Allingham
On Thu, 2006-05-04 at 16:20 -0600, Don Allingham wrote:
> I have been dreading this message for a while.
Oh, sorry - had to happen though right?

> Call names seem to mean different things in different parts of the
> world. Some definitions are below.
>
> 1) The call name follows specific legal rules, where the name should
>     be underlined in documents, and the call name must be a one of the
>     names in the given name. So, applying this to my name of "Donald
>     Norman", the call name would be "Donald". This is the example given
>     by Joachim, and applies to Germany and several other countries.
I think was called a Rüfname in Germany/German

> 2) The call name can be a subset of a person's name, as pointed out by
>     Richard Bos. I'm not sure what the legal status of this is, but as
>     Richard pointed out, his name is "Richardus" but the call name is
>     "Richard". I'm not sure if underlining is required. However, I'm
>     pretty sure that "Richard" cannot be considered to be a nickname.
>
> 3) The call name is different from a person's legal given name. For
>     example, someone with the legal name of "Lawrence" will typically
>     have the call name of "Larry", which is not a subset of any name.
>     Again, this would not be viewed as a nickname.
Do I understand correctly that you suggest we refer to both of these as
'call names'?

> Some areas of the world need the call name underlined; other areas of
> the world do not have this requirement.
>
> Now, some will say that #2 and #3 are not valid call names, Some will
> say at only #3 is not a valid call name. Some will say that all are
> valid call names. And it may depend on where you live as to what you
> consider to be a valid call name.
I'm more concerned that most genealogies cover more than one
country/culture and therefore would need to work in several ways.

> So, the proposal is:
>
> 1) Nicknames will be stored as Attributes.
What's the reasoning behind this? Why not use the names attribute for
this type of name?
> More than one Nickname can
>    be specified. The definition of a Nickname is up to you. Data in a
>    Nickname field in a GEDCOM file will be imported as an attribute.
>
> 2) An additional field, called "Call Name" will be added to the Name.
>    The definition of the contents of this field will be left up to the
>    user.
Is 'call name' an English term? If this is an Anglicization of the
German Rüfname I suggest we don't use that term. If the concept does not
exist in English I think it would be a mistake to lead people to believe
that a 'call name' is just 'one of the names they're called'. Perhaps
you could call it 'preferred name', which as far as I know doesn't infer
any legal meaning. Or if it comes directly after, and in the same line
(I'm talking UI here) as 'Given' then it could just be 'Preferred'.

My concern here generally is that if it wasn't for this discussion
happening before I would never have learnt about a 'Rüfname', despite
having lived a half year in Germany. In the same way ancestry may not be
an exact science, but we do try be as specific and concrete as possible.
Especially with names. I'm not really too keen on the 'definition is up
to the user' way of doing it in such a critical aspect of genealogy as
their name.

I guess in short I'm saying keep everyone happy by giving _all_ the
options specifically. If that means some tooltip texts explaining the
difference, then so be it. If Tante (aunt) Hasselbach wants to make use
of the database then she needs to know if 'Günter' is the preferred name
of Waltrud Günter Hasselbach or his Rüfname, in the German translation
'call name' probably gets translated as 'Rüfname' (of which call name is
a transliteration). If the db was written by an English speaker who
always called him Günter, but has never heard of a Rüfname then we've
basically lead the first user into giving corrupt information just
because he made a reasonable assumption.

So what about (oh, here we go again...)

Family:______________ Prefix:________________
Given:_______________________________________
Title:_______________ Suffix:________________ Type:Also known as
                                                   Birth name
                                                   Married name
                                                   Preferred name
                                                   "Rüfname"
                                                   Nickname
                                                   Unknown

> 3) Reports will have the option
to do their thing...



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Re: Nicknames, call names, "Rüfname" and preferred names...

Joachim Breitner
Hi,

Am Freitag, den 05.05.2006, 01:05 +0200 schrieb Duncan Lithgow:
> I think was called a Rüfname in Germany/German
Although it looks more German your way, it's actually "Rufname" :-9

Don's proposal seems to povide the necessary functionality to me,
although I'm eager to hear other ideas.

Also, how would a report that tries to include _all_ available
information print the name, Don?

Greetings,
Joachim
--
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  e-Mail: [hidden email]
  Homepage: http://www.joachim-breitner.de
  ICQ#: 74513189


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Re: Nicknames, call names, "Rüfname" and preferred names...

Don Allingham
On Fri, 2006-05-05 at 09:17 +0200, Joachim Breitner wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Am Freitag, den 05.05.2006, 01:05 +0200 schrieb Duncan Lithgow:
> > I think was called a Rüfname in Germany/German
> Although it looks more German your way, it's actually "Rufname" :-9
>
> Don's proposal seems to povide the necessary functionality to me,
> although I'm eager to hear other ideas.
>
> Also, how would a report that tries to include _all_ available
> information print the name, Don?
I don't know. I'm up for suggestions. My guess is that it would depend
on the report, and may require several options.


> Greetings,
> Joachim
--
Don Allingham <[hidden email]>

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Re: Nicknames, call names, "Rüfname" and preferred names...

wb-3
On Friday May 5 2006 08:15, Don Allingham wrote:
> On Fri, 2006-05-05 at 09:17 +0200, Joachim Breitner wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Am Freitag, den 05.05.2006, 01:05 +0200 schrieb Duncan
Lithgow:

> > > I think was called a Rüfname in Germany/German
> >
> > Although it looks more German your way, it's actually
> > "Rufname" :-9
> >
> > Don's proposal seems to povide the necessary
> > functionality to me, although I'm eager to hear other
> > ideas.
> >
> > Also, how would a report that tries to include _all_
> > available information print the name, Don?
>
> I don't know. I'm up for suggestions. My guess is that it
> would depend on the report, and may require several
> options.

I hope a the common default would be as used in many English
contexts:

        Given Name "Nick Name" FamilyName

Or, at least it would be easy to choose that formatting.


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Re: [Gramps-devel] Nicknames, call names, "Rüfname" and preferred names...

Julio Sánchez-2
2006/5/5, wb <[hidden email]>:
> I hope a the common default would be as used in many English
> contexts:
>
>         Given Name "Nick Name" FamilyName
>
> Or, at least it would be easy to choose that formatting.

Good.  For the record, in the Spanish-speaking world, or at least in
the part I know of it, a nickname would usually be placed at the end.
Something like:

      Eleuterio Sánchez, "El Lute" [once consider public enemy #1,
became a lawyer while doing time, currently reformed, recently accused
of gender violence]
      Dolores Ibarruri, "Pasionaria" [politician]
      Jesús Janeiro, "Jesulín de Ubrique" [bullfighter]
      Juan Martín Díez, "El Empecinado" [guerrilla fighter]
      José María Hinojosa Cobacho, "El Tempranillo" [bandit]
      Jose Antonio Urrutikoetxea Bengoetxea, "Josu Ternera" [ETA member]
      Pilar de la Cuesta, "Ana Belén" [singer and actress]
      Dolores González Flores, "Lolita" or maybe "Lolita Flores" [singer]
      María Antonia Abad, "Sara Montiel" [singer and actress]
      José Miguel Monzón, "El Gran Wyoming" [showman]
      Fernando Marquez, "El Zurdo" [singer and musician]
      Francisco Sánchez Gómez, "Paco de Lucía" [guitarist]

I am not sure about commas or quotes, but that is definetely the
order.  This is the general style used for nicknames.  The  nickname
may or not look like a full name. This usage reflects a cultural bias,
we would never use a nickname chosen as such plus the surname, for us
the nickname is the full name.  So while writing about Fatty Arbuckle,
we would write it as Roscoe Arbuckle, "Fatty Arbuckle".  In the
examples above, when the nickname did not contain a surname, it must
be understood that the person is recognizable in some context by that
nickname alone.

Something completely different would be subsets of first names or
familiar forms of first names (such as Pepe for José, Paco for
Francisco, Lolita for Dolores, and so on).  These two cases look a lot
like Rufnamen, if I got that right.

So I would also like some flexibility in rendering names and in how
they are used in reports, etc.

Regards,

Julio


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Re: Re: [Gramps-devel] Nicknames, call names, "Rüfname" and preferred names...

Eero Tamminen-3
Hi,

On Friday 05 May 2006 20:56, Julio Sánchez wrote:
> > I hope a the common default would be as used in many English
> > contexts:
> >
> >         Given Name "Nick Name" FamilyName

In Finnish this format looks a bit silly, especially in a calendar. :-)


> > Or, at least it would be easy to choose that formatting.
>
> Good.  For the record, in the Spanish-speaking world, or at least in
> the part I know of it, a nickname would usually be placed at the end.
> Something like:
>
>       Eleuterio Sánchez, "El Lute" [once consider public enemy #1,
> became a lawyer while doing time, currently reformed, recently accused
> of gender violence]

This format would be fine for Finnish too.


So, maybe there should be a keywords string for the name?

"name format|%(given_name)% \"%(nick_name)s\" %(family_name)s"

This could be composed by a function in report utils to which
report just gives a name object and gets back a string.  That
function would add underlining etc when/where needed.


        - Eero


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Re: Nicknames, call names, "Rüfname" and preferred names...

wb-3
In reply to this post by Julio Sánchez-2
On Friday May 5 2006 12:56, Julio Sánchez wrote:

> 2006/5/5, wb <[hidden email]>:
> > I hope a the common default would be as used in many
> > English contexts:
> >
> >         Given Name "Nick Name" FamilyName
> >
> > Or, at least it would be easy to choose that
> > formatting.
>
> Good.  For the record, in the Spanish-speaking world, or
> at least in the part I know of it, a nickname would
> usually be placed at the end. Something like:
>
>       Eleuterio Sánchez, "El Lute" [once consider public
> enemy #1, became a lawyer while doing time, currently
> reformed, recently accused of gender violence]
>       Dolores Ibarruri, "Pasionaria" [politician]


This would be understandable to an English-speaking
American, I think.  I think many people would use an
'aka' (also known as).  

        Dolores Ibarruri, aka "Pasionaria"

Still, I think locale-specific rules may be best.  
Consistency within a locale would be important, though.


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Re: Nicknames, call names, "Rüfname" and preferred names...

Joachim Breitner
Hi,

Am Freitag, den 05.05.2006, 13:43 -0500 schrieb wb:
> Still, I think locale-specific rules may be best.  
> Consistency within a locale would be important, though.

Not sure, what if you have Finish, Spanish, American and German
relatives.

Maybe a program wide default and a not-too-visible selector in the UI
that choses beween the different possibilities. A bit like the "File
as" (or similar) selector that evolution offers for the Contacts.

Greetings,
Joachim
--
Joachim Breitner
  e-Mail: [hidden email]
  Homepage: http://www.joachim-breitner.de
  ICQ#: 74513189


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