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OR dates

Ron Johnson
Hi,

I've got a card from the 1917/1918 WW1 Draft Cards with just the month and
day: "June 5".  (I'd use his age to determine the year from his age and
birth, but that's adds to 1915.)

A date handling option of "05 June 1917" OR "05 June 1918" is correct,
whereas the available "BETWEEN 05 June 1917 AND 05 June 1918" is incorrect.

How hard would it be to implement this?


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Lawrence Krauss


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Re: OR dates

Ron Johnson
On 07/23/2016 08:41 PM, Ron Johnson wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I've got a card from the 1917/1918 WW1 Draft Cards with just the month and
> day: "June 5".  (I'd use his age to determine the year from his age and
> birth, but that's adds to 1915.)
>
> A date handling option of "05 June 1917" OR "05 June 1918" is correct,
> whereas the available "BETWEEN 05 June 1917 AND 05 June 1918" is incorrect.

This would also help in "off by one" age situations.

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Lawrence Krauss


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Re: OR dates

Brad Rogers
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
On Sat, 23 Jul 2016 20:41:10 -0500
Ron Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Ron,

>I've got a card from the 1917/1918 WW1 Draft Cards with just the month
>and day: "June 5".  (I'd use his age to determine the year from his age
>and birth, but that's adds to 1915.)

People sometimes lied about their age, especially if locals thought they
were old enough to be "out there doing their bit", and were giving him a
hard time about it.

>A date handling option of "05 June 1917" OR "05 June 1918" is correct,
>whereas the available "BETWEEN 05 June 1917 AND 05 June 1918" is
>incorrect.

I've not tried it myself, but what about 'Either/Or, rather than just
'Or'?

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Re: OR dates

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
On 07/24/2016 12:57 AM, Brad Rogers wrote:

> On Sat, 23 Jul 2016 20:41:10 -0500
> Ron Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hello Ron,
>
>> I've got a card from the 1917/1918 WW1 Draft Cards with just the month
>> and day: "June 5".  (I'd use his age to determine the year from his age
>> and birth, but that's adds to 1915.)
> People sometimes lied about their age, especially if locals thought they
> were old enough to be "out there doing their bit", and were giving him a
> hard time about it.

He was in his early twenties, so that doesn't appear to be a problem.

>> A date handling option of "05 June 1917" OR "05 June 1918" is correct,
>> whereas the available "BETWEEN 05 June 1917 AND 05 June 1918" is
>> incorrect.
> I've not tried it myself, but what about 'Either/Or, rather than just
> 'Or'?

Semantically, that would follow the current FROM/TO and BETWEEN/AND.

It's the guts of the feature that I'm asking about.


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Re: OR dates

enno
Ron,
>
>>> A date handling option of "05 June 1917" OR "05 June 1918" is correct,
>>> whereas the available "BETWEEN 05 June 1917 AND 05 June 1918" is
>>> incorrect.
>> I've not tried it myself, but what about 'Either/Or, rather than just
>> 'Or'?
> Semantically, that would follow the current FROM/TO and BETWEEN/AND.
>
> It's the guts of the feature that I'm asking about.
Right. A quick glance in the GEDCOM standard suggests that it's not in
there, so if Gramps supports it, there is quite a chance that other
software will not understand.

The feature itself looks quite reasonable though, because there are
enough cases where a date is either this or that, because it can be read
in multiple ways, there was a calendar change, whatever.

regards,

Enno


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Re: OR dates

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
On 07/24/2016 04:15 AM, Enno Borgsteede wrote:

> Ron,
>>>> A date handling option of "05 June 1917" OR "05 June 1918" is correct,
>>>> whereas the available "BETWEEN 05 June 1917 AND 05 June 1918" is
>>>> incorrect.
>>> I've not tried it myself, but what about 'Either/Or, rather than just
>>> 'Or'?
>> Semantically, that would follow the current FROM/TO and BETWEEN/AND.
>>
>> It's the guts of the feature that I'm asking about.
> Right. A quick glance in the GEDCOM standard suggests that it's not in
> there, so if Gramps supports it, there is quite a chance that other
> software will not understand.

Convert it to a range during the GEDCOM export?

> The feature itself looks quite reasonable though, because there are
> enough cases where a date is either this or that, because it can be read
> in multiple ways, there was a calendar change, whatever.


--
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Re: OR dates

TJMcK
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
A few extraneous questions come to mind when defining the exact use of "OR".
  1) Will it be used to combine several events with different dates?  (eg. two birthdates, with different dates, from different sources)
  2) And if so, will one (probably the first entry) be a "primary" or the more probable date?  (when used for sorting, Gramps decision processes)
  3) Is there only going to be max two allowable dates, or can I use three or four?  (eg. 1917 OR 1919 OR 1923)

My database is filled with many same-events that have different dates. Would I use this to combine them so that all the variations would be shown in reports?

In general, I would use this feature in many situations -- even if it be limited to dates within a single source, as described in one of the first messages in this thread.
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Re: OR dates

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
On 07/24/2016 01:21 PM, TJMcK wrote:
> A few extraneous questions come to mind when defining the exact use of "OR".
>    1) Will it be used to combine several events with different dates?  (eg.
> two birthdates, with different dates, from different sources)

Yes.

>    2) And if so, will one (probably the first entry) be a "primary" or the
> more probable date?  (when used for sorting, Gramps decision processes)

That would be simplest.

>    3) Is there only going to be max two allowable dates, or can I use three
> or four?  (eg. 1917 OR 1919 OR 1923)

Implementation detail.

> My database is filled with many same-events that have different dates. Would
> I use this to combine them so that all the variations would be shown in
> reports?

YES!!!!  :)

> In general, I would use this feature in many situations -- even if it be
> limited to dates within a single source, as described in one of the first
> messages in this thread.

--
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Lawrence Krauss


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Re: OR dates

Peter (chamdo4ever)
I have to say, I really love this idea as a whole.

However, I think that Enno raises a good point that this would wreak a
little havoc with GEDCOM exports.

On Sun, Jul 24, 2016 at 5:49 PM, Ron Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 07/24/2016 01:21 PM, TJMcK wrote:
>> A few extraneous questions come to mind when defining the exact use of "OR".
>>    1) Will it be used to combine several events with different dates?  (eg.
>> two birthdates, with different dates, from different sources)
>
> Yes.
>
>>    2) And if so, will one (probably the first entry) be a "primary" or the
>> more probable date?  (when used for sorting, Gramps decision processes)
>
> That would be simplest.
>
>>    3) Is there only going to be max two allowable dates, or can I use three
>> or four?  (eg. 1917 OR 1919 OR 1923)
>
> Implementation detail.
>
>> My database is filled with many same-events that have different dates. Would
>> I use this to combine them so that all the variations would be shown in
>> reports?
>
> YES!!!!  :)
>
>> In general, I would use this feature in many situations -- even if it be
>> limited to dates within a single source, as described in one of the first
>> messages in this thread.
>
> --
> "I compare what the data tells me.  I don't do things by votes or authority."
> Lawrence Krauss
>
>
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Re: OR dates

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
Either convert it to a range, or to multiple events.

On 07/24/2016 05:34 PM, Peter (chamdo4ever) wrote:
> I have to say, I really love this idea as a whole.
>
> However, I think that Enno raises a good point that this would wreak a
> little havoc with GEDCOM exports.


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Re: OR dates

Brad Rogers
On Sun, 24 Jul 2016 19:08:09 -0500
Ron Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Ron,

>Either convert it to a range, or to multiple events.

That's *changing* the supplied data;  Never a good idea, IMO.  Further,
if you're going to change data on export, why not just enter the data as
multiple events or a range in the first place? (A rhetorical question)

Finally, even if Gramps sounds a klaxon, and flashes a big red warning at
export time that data is going to be changed from that which was entered,
there *will* be people that complain about it.

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Re: OR dates

enno
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
Op 24-07-16 om 15:00 schreef Ron Johnson:

> On 07/24/2016 04:15 AM, Enno Borgsteede wrote:
>> Ron,
>>>>> A date handling option of "05 June 1917" OR "05 June 1918" is correct,
>>>>> whereas the available "BETWEEN 05 June 1917 AND 05 June 1918" is
>>>>> incorrect.
>>>> I've not tried it myself, but what about 'Either/Or, rather than just
>>>> 'Or'?
>>> Semantically, that would follow the current FROM/TO and BETWEEN/AND.
>>>
>>> It's the guts of the feature that I'm asking about.
>> Right. A quick glance in the GEDCOM standard suggests that it's not in
>> there, so if Gramps supports it, there is quite a chance that other
>> software will not understand.
> Convert it to a range during the GEDCOM export?
No. That would change the meaning, so you won't know what was meant
after import in a new tree.

When I find a source that says "22 March 1367 or 1368", I can copy that
date into the proper field, and ignore Gramps' warning that it can't
interpret this date. It will then simply saved as text, and that's OK in
GEDCOM too. The only drawback is that there will be no translation,
where I'd normally want to read that month as "Maart" and see "of" for
"or". The latter may be circumvented by using a /, which is more
language neutral, except that it can be interpreted as a separator
again. Computer lingo would then probably advise | instead, but I'm not
sure about the number of humans that can understand that.

regards,

Enno


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Re: OR dates

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
On 07/25/2016 02:44 AM, Brad Rogers wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Jul 2016 19:08:09 -0500
> Ron Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hello Ron,
>
>> Either convert it to a range, or to multiple events.
> That's *changing* the supplied data;  Never a good idea, IMO.  Further,
> if you're going to change data on export, why not just enter the data as
> multiple events or a range in the first place? (A rhetorical question)

I agree that  converting to a range is an unwanted change, but why are "two
events" so evil?  After all, that's what we *currently* do in these situations.

> Finally, even if Gramps sounds a klaxon, and flashes a big red warning at
> export time that data is going to be changed from that which was entered,
> there *will* be people that complain about it.


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Lawrence Krauss


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Re: OR dates

Brad Rogers
On Mon, 25 Jul 2016 03:52:12 -0500
Ron Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Ron,

>I agree that  converting to a range is an unwanted change, but why are
>"two events" so evil?  After all, that's what we *currently* do in
>these situations.

I'm not saying that two events are bad(1) - I'm saying *changing on
export* an event (or events) is bad.

(1) I mentioned multiple events as an option in my previous message.

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Re: OR dates

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
On 07/25/2016 04:24 AM, Brad Rogers wrote:

> On Mon, 25 Jul 2016 03:52:12 -0500
> Ron Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hello Ron,
>
>> I agree that  converting to a range is an unwanted change, but why are
>> "two events" so evil?  After all, that's what we *currently* do in
>> these situations.
> I'm not saying that two events are bad(1) - I'm saying *changing on
> export* an event (or events) is bad.

The "change to range" is, I realized, bad.  But "change to multiple events"
is a sad but livable consequence of the very limited format that is.

After all, the export changes shared events, places, notes, etc to multiple
objects and no one complains.  We grumble and just accept the limits of GEDCOM.

> (1) I mentioned multiple events as an option in my previous message.

I agree that is the better option.


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Re: OR dates

Brad Rogers
On Mon, 25 Jul 2016 04:50:13 -0500
Ron Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello Ron,

>After all, the export changes shared events, places, notes, etc to
>multiple objects and no one complains.  We grumble and just accept the

There is a difference;  The change mentioned above is a change to the
container, not the data itself.  Splitting hairs, perhaps......

>limits of GEDCOM.

True.   :-/

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Re: OR dates

Oldest1
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
On 7/25/2016 1:52 AM, Ron Johnson wrote:

> On 07/25/2016 02:44 AM, Brad Rogers wrote:
>> On Sun, 24 Jul 2016 19:08:09 -0500
>> Ron Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hello Ron,
>>
>>> Either convert it to a range, or to multiple events.
>> That's *changing* the supplied data;  Never a good idea, IMO.  Further,
>> if you're going to change data on export, why not just enter the data as
>> multiple events or a range in the first place? (A rhetorical question)
> I agree that  converting to a range is an unwanted change, but why are "two
> events" so evil?  After all, that's what we *currently* do in these situations.
Unless one 'splits' the data into two events right from the start during
data entry, with
appropriate notes to link the two entries, the 'automatic' splitting on
export, would likely
lose the relationship/connection between the two events

Arnold
>
>> Finally, even if Gramps sounds a klaxon, and flashes a big red warning at
>> export time that data is going to be changed from that which was entered,
>> there *will* be people that complain about it.
>

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Re: OR dates

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
On 07/25/2016 10:35 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

> On 7/25/2016 1:52 AM, Ron Johnson wrote:
>> On 07/25/2016 02:44 AM, Brad Rogers wrote:
>>> On Sun, 24 Jul 2016 19:08:09 -0500
>>> Ron Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello Ron,
>>>
>>>> Either convert it to a range, or to multiple events.
>>> That's *changing* the supplied data;  Never a good idea, IMO.  Further,
>>> if you're going to change data on export, why not just enter the data as
>>> multiple events or a range in the first place? (A rhetorical question)
>> I agree that  converting to a range is an unwanted change, but why are "two
>> events" so evil?  After all, that's what we *currently* do in these situations.
> Unless one 'splits' the data into two events right from the start during
> data entry, with
> appropriate notes to link the two entries, the 'automatic' splitting on
> export, would likely
> lose the relationship/connection between the two events

How would changing the single event "Birth of Fred Flintstone in 1904 OR
1905" to the two events "Birth of Fred Flintstone in 1904" and "Birth of
Fred Flintstone in 1905"?  All citations and notes would be carried to the
two new events.


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Re: OR dates

Oldest1
On 7/25/2016 11:26 AM, Ron Johnson wrote:

> On 07/25/2016 10:35 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>> On 7/25/2016 1:52 AM, Ron Johnson wrote:
>>> On 07/25/2016 02:44 AM, Brad Rogers wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 24 Jul 2016 19:08:09 -0500
>>>> Ron Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hello Ron,
>>>>
>>>>> Either convert it to a range, or to multiple events.
>>>> That's *changing* the supplied data;  Never a good idea, IMO.  Further,
>>>> if you're going to change data on export, why not just enter the data as
>>>> multiple events or a range in the first place? (A rhetorical question)
>>> I agree that  converting to a range is an unwanted change, but why are "two
>>> events" so evil?  After all, that's what we *currently* do in these situations.
>> Unless one 'splits' the data into two events right from the start during
>> data entry, with
>> appropriate notes to link the two entries, the 'automatic' splitting on
>> export, would likely
>> lose the relationship/connection between the two events
> How would changing the single event "Birth of Fred Flintstone in 1904 OR
> 1905" to the two events "Birth of Fred Flintstone in 1904" and "Birth of
> Fred Flintstone in 1905"?  All citations and notes would be carried to the
> two new events.
Sure enough, but unless there is a comment in the notes,
any connection between the two may not be apparent to
yourself sometime down the road or some other user
who comes across the data once it is split.

Arnold


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Re: OR dates

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
On 07/25/2016 07:51 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

> On 7/25/2016 11:26 AM, Ron Johnson wrote:
>> On 07/25/2016 10:35 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>> On 7/25/2016 1:52 AM, Ron Johnson wrote:
>>>> On 07/25/2016 02:44 AM, Brad Rogers wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 24 Jul 2016 19:08:09 -0500
>>>>> Ron Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello Ron,
>>>>>
>>>>>> Either convert it to a range, or to multiple events.
>>>>> That's *changing* the supplied data;  Never a good idea, IMO.  Further,
>>>>> if you're going to change data on export, why not just enter the data as
>>>>> multiple events or a range in the first place? (A rhetorical question)
>>>> I agree that  converting to a range is an unwanted change, but why are "two
>>>> events" so evil?  After all, that's what we *currently* do in these situations.
>>> Unless one 'splits' the data into two events right from the start during
>>> data entry, with
>>> appropriate notes to link the two entries, the 'automatic' splitting on
>>> export, would likely
>>> lose the relationship/connection between the two events
>> How would changing the single event "Birth of Fred Flintstone in 1904 OR
>> 1905" to the two events "Birth of Fred Flintstone in 1904" and "Birth of
>> Fred Flintstone in 1905"?  All citations and notes would be carried to the
>> two new events.
> Sure enough, but unless there is a comment in the notes,
> any connection between the two may not be apparent to
> yourself sometime down the road or some other user
> who comes across the data once it is split.

What do you *now* do when there are two (or more!) possible birth events?  
Why wouldn't you do the same in a single event with an OR date?

--
"I compare what the data tells me.  I don't do things by votes or authority."
Lawrence Krauss


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