Patronymics in GEDCOM

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Patronymics in GEDCOM

Julio Sánchez-2
Currently, patronymics are lost in the GEDCOM export.

How should this be handled?

For Spanish, what I think that makes sense and is coherent with the
behaviour of the rest of GRAMPS, would be to place it at the beginning
of the surname prefix.  Placing it at the end of the given name is
possible, but less desirable, I think.  It is not possible to place it
in the surname, since this would be inconsistent with the ordering of
patronymic and surname prefix all over GRAMPS.

Example, for "Pedro Gutiérrez de Rubalcaba", coded as:

Given Name: Pedro
Patronymic: Gutiérrez
Surname prefix: de
Surname: Rubalcaba

the output I think best is:

1 NAME Pedro/Gutiérrez de Rubalcaba/
2 GIVN Pedro
2 SPFX Gutiérrez de
2 SURN Rubalcaba

Alternatively:

1 NAME Pedro Gutiérrez/de Rubalcaba/
2 GIVN Pedro Gutiérrez
2 SPFX de
2 SURN Rubalcaba

What would make sense in other languages?  Or make sense for programs
reading such GEDCOMs?

Julio


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Re: Patronymics in GEDCOM

Don Allingham
On Wed, 2005-09-14 at 12:04 +0200, Julio Sanchez wrote:

> Alternatively:
>
> 1 NAME Pedro Gutiérrez/de Rubalcaba/
> 2 GIVN Pedro Gutiérrez
> 2 SPFX de
> 2 SURN Rubalcaba
>
> What would make sense in other languages?  Or make sense for programs
> reading such GEDCOMs?
>
Most of what I've seen would indicate that this is probably the
preferred method here. Many programs don't pay attention to the
subfields, relying only on NAME.

Don

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Re: Patronymics in GEDCOM

Julio Sánchez-2
2005/9/15, Don Allingham <[hidden email]>:

> On Wed, 2005-09-14 at 12:04 +0200, Julio Sanchez wrote:
> > Alternatively:
> >
> > 1 NAME Pedro Gutiérrez/de Rubalcaba/
> > 2 GIVN Pedro Gutiérrez
> > 2 SPFX de
> > 2 SURN Rubalcaba
> >
> > What would make sense in other languages?  Or make sense for programs
> > reading such GEDCOMs?
> >
>
> Most of what I've seen would indicate that this is probably the
> preferred method here. Many programs don't pay attention to the
> subfields, relying only on NAME.

Yes.  The question is how to place the pieces.  Both examples above
work for place that use or have used patronymic + family name: Spain,
Russia, etc.  What about places that use or have used a patronymic
only? Nordic countries come to mind. In the alternative you chose, the
surname field would be empty and everything would be placed in the
given name field.

Julio


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Re: Patronymics in GEDCOM

Don Allingham
We have an indicator in the Name structure that tells us if we should
sort or display as:

Patronymic, Given
Surname, Given Patronymic

Based of what is chosen would indicate what we should do.

Don

On Thu, 2005-09-15 at 08:44 +0200, Julio Sanchez wrote:

> 2005/9/15, Don Allingham <[hidden email]>:
> > On Wed, 2005-09-14 at 12:04 +0200, Julio Sanchez wrote:
> > > Alternatively:
> > >
> > > 1 NAME Pedro Gutiérrez/de Rubalcaba/
> > > 2 GIVN Pedro Gutiérrez
> > > 2 SPFX de
> > > 2 SURN Rubalcaba
> > >
> > > What would make sense in other languages?  Or make sense for programs
> > > reading such GEDCOMs?
> > >
> >
> > Most of what I've seen would indicate that this is probably the
> > preferred method here. Many programs don't pay attention to the
> > subfields, relying only on NAME.
>
> Yes.  The question is how to place the pieces.  Both examples above
> work for place that use or have used patronymic + family name: Spain,
> Russia, etc.  What about places that use or have used a patronymic
> only? Nordic countries come to mind. In the alternative you chose, the
> surname field would be empty and everything would be placed in the
> given name field.
>
> Julio
>
--
Don Allingham <[hidden email]>

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Re: Patronymics in GEDCOM

Julio Sánchez-2
Don,

That sounds right.

Should NameDisplay.py be expanded to provide apropriate functions to
generate the GEDCOM pieces?  Or hardwired into WriteGedcom.py?

I think this should be based on the Display choice.

I think I may find useful another display option.  Patronymics have
had a complex history in Spain: from regular patronymics (complemented
in some families with a surname) in the Middle Ages, to complete chaos
(people would choose their patronymics at will) in the Modern Age, to
them becoming regular surnames alone or in combination since the end
of the 19th century.  Currently I place patronymics either on the
given name or on the surname depending on what I think was appropriate
for the family and the year, but placing them in the patronymic field
and changing the display option may well be what I need, because it
would let me sort according to one method and display according to
another.  I'll have to think about this.

Julio


2005/9/15, Don Allingham <[hidden email]>:

> We have an indicator in the Name structure that tells us if we should
> sort or display as:
>
> Patronymic, Given
> Surname, Given Patronymic
>
> Based of what is chosen would indicate what we should do.
>
> Don
>
> On Thu, 2005-09-15 at 08:44 +0200, Julio Sanchez wrote:
> > 2005/9/15, Don Allingham <[hidden email]>:
> > > On Wed, 2005-09-14 at 12:04 +0200, Julio Sanchez wrote:
> > > > Alternatively:
> > > >
> > > > 1 NAME Pedro Gutiérrez/de Rubalcaba/
> > > > 2 GIVN Pedro Gutiérrez
> > > > 2 SPFX de
> > > > 2 SURN Rubalcaba
> > > >
> > > > What would make sense in other languages?  Or make sense for programs
> > > > reading such GEDCOMs?
> > > >
> > >
> > > Most of what I've seen would indicate that this is probably the
> > > preferred method here. Many programs don't pay attention to the
> > > subfields, relying only on NAME.
> >
> > Yes.  The question is how to place the pieces.  Both examples above
> > work for place that use or have used patronymic + family name: Spain,
> > Russia, etc.  What about places that use or have used a patronymic
> > only? Nordic countries come to mind. In the alternative you chose, the
> > surname field would be empty and everything would be placed in the
> > given name field.
> >
> > Julio
> >
> --
> Don Allingham <[hidden email]>
>
>
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>


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