Place types in v4.1

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Re: Place types in v4.1

Nick Hall
On 20/05/14 18:04, Jerome wrote:
> Just a question: does "Enclosed By" into placerefembedlist means
> something like "Ruled by"?

It is a list of parent regions.  They are regions which contain the
place.  I suppose I could have labelled the tab "Located In".


>
> I can guess some possible custom types could be 'Duchy', 'Seigneurie'
> (Europe or Canada) , 'Fief', 'Margrave', 'Principality', etc ... eg,
> for Germanic culture, where these areas were often used (until
> half-19th century).
>

Yes.

I started this thread because I didn't know if I had too many or too few
pre-defined types.  Users can define as many custom types as they like.

Other examples might be:

Territory, Canton, Township, Prefecture, Division, Zone

or perhaps:

Church, Cemetery, Hospital

Should I add them to the pre-defined list?


Nick.


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Re: Place types in v4.1

Nick Hall
In reply to this post by jerome
On 20/05/14 11:48, Jerome wrote:
> So, maybe to generate new translation strings with context (means new
> msgid)?
>
> Or maybe better, I suppose that 'fr.po' can use 'Province' for 'State'
> and 'Comté' for 'County'. These levels also existed in France before
> 1792... :)
>
> I think I can be more accurate on some others levels.
>

I added "Province".  So you can have:


Province -> Province
County -> Comté

The French place hierarchy would normally be translated as:

Region -> Région
Department -> Départment
District -> Arrondissement

but I see that you also translate borough as arrondissement.

We can add context if it helps.  Do we need context on "state" to
specify that we don't mean "nation"?

Nick.


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Re: Place types in v4.1

jerome
Yes, for fr_FR, 
    maybe not for fr_CA or fr_BE...

In France, we can find an arrondissement into some cities like Paris, Marseille, Lyon, etc ... which maybe sounds like US borough?


There is also arrondissement into Department (France) or others countries.

    or

which maybe sounds like US district?



Le mar. 20 mai 2014 at 19:34, Nick Hall <[hidden email]> a écrit :
The French place hierarchy would normally be translated as: Region -> Région Department -> Départment District -> Arrondissement but I see that you also translate borough as arrondissement. We can add context if it helps. Do we need context on "state" to specify that we don't mean "nation"? Nick.

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Re: Place types in v4.1

jerome
In reply to this post by Nick Hall
It looks like that more we have entries into a pre-defined list, more we will have problems for properly translate these types! As custom type means no translation (key set by users), I suppose it is safe to keep a small hardcoded list?

I suppose that we will loose some equivalences, but this will avoid issues like US levels set into gedcom file format and I suppose that's why some alternate exchange file formats have been created (eg, gedcom 5.5 EL in Germany!)


Le mar. 20 mai 2014 at 19:16, Nick Hall <[hidden email]> a écrit :
On 20/05/14 18:04, Jerome wrote:
Just a question: does "Enclosed By" into placerefembedlist means something like "Ruled by"?
It is a list of parent regions. They are regions which contain the place. I suppose I could have labelled the tab "Located In".
I can guess some possible custom types could be 'Duchy', 'Seigneurie' (Europe or Canada) , 'Fief', 'Margrave', 'Principality', etc ... eg, for Germanic culture, where these areas were often used (until half-19th century).
Yes. I started this thread because I didn't know if I had too many or too few pre-defined types. Users can define as many custom types as they like. Other examples might be: Territory, Canton, Township, Prefecture, Division, Zone or perhaps: Church, Cemetery, Hospital Should I add them to the pre-defined list? Nick.

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Re: Place types in v4.1

enno
In reply to this post by Nick Hall
Nick,

> I started this thread because I didn't know if I had too many or too few
> pre-defined types.  Users can define as many custom types as they like.
>
> Other examples might be:
>
> Territory, Canton, Township, Prefecture, Division, Zone
>
> or perhaps:
>
> Church, Cemetery, Hospital
>
> Should I add them to the pre-defined list?
If I can somehow choose which types are visible, the pre-defined list
can be pretty large, and I like to have object types like you listed
above. We may also need to think outside Europe & US, like emirate.

Apart from Getty, I have no idea about standards in this area, nor
whether types can be imported from a site like geonames. The subject
somehow calls for web services, but I have no idea how easy it is to
query those from Gramps, or Python in general.

regards,

Enno


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Re: Place types in v4.1

Nick Hall
In reply to this post by ACProctor
On 20/05/14 08:28, Tony Proctor wrote:
> Re: No.  A single list of types was easiest to code. The user can add
> to it by defining custom types.
>
> I think you misunderstand Nick. I still have a single list of types,
> but each country only uses a subset of them for its own field
> designations. As I said earlier, trying to economise doesn't help
> genealogists to be accurate.

That makes sense.  We can filter the list for display as appropriate.

I agree with you that a larger list will help give more accurate
descriptions.

Nick.


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Re: Place types in v4.1

Nick Hall
In reply to this post by ACProctor
On 20/05/14 08:43, Tony Proctor wrote:
> The combo-boxes are essential if you want to retain a consistent set
> of place names for each type. This presumes that Gramps distinguishes
> the evidential form (i.e. what was written or recorded) from the
> normalised form (i.e. the actual name or value). This is something I
> do for all data, including person/place names and dates.

The evidential form will normally be recorded in Gramps by notes
attached to source citations.

>
> Does Gramps impose a strict hierarchical order, or can the end-user
> put the name parts in any order they want? I was wondering how it
> would cope when there was some administrative change to consider for
> the time period of datum. For instance, a town being in one county
> before a given date, and then a different county thereafter. This is
> certainly a problem I've tried to solve for England as there have been
> many confusing and unnecessary changes in the past.

I have left the place hierarchy totally flexible.  The user can have as
many levels as they choose and assign any place type to any node.  If a
place type is not in the pre-defined list a custom type can be created.  
So the children of the "USA" node could be either of type "State" or
"Federal District".

Each place can have multiple parent places.  The link to the parent
place can optionally have a date range.  This allows us to define a town
to be in a different county in different date ranges.

At the moment I only allow one node to be added or edited at a time.  In
the prototype, I experimented with a quick data entry dialog which
contained a list of ComboEntry boxes.  This could create several nodes
automatically.  Perhaps I need to think about that again.


Nick.


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Re: Place types in v4.1

enno
Devs,

Dallan Quass, owner of WeRelate.org, has a database and API and other
things on GitHub

https://github.com/DallanQ/Places

Would this be useful? Snapshots are available for download, and the main
database is updated on WeRelate.org every day.

regards,

Enno



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Re: Place types in v4.1

Nick Hall
On 21/05/14 13:32, Enno Borgsteede wrote:
> Dallan Quass, owner of WeRelate.org, has a database and API and other
> things on GitHub
>
> https://github.com/DallanQ/Places
>
> Would this be useful? Snapshots are available for download, and the main
> database is updated on WeRelate.org every day.

When adding a new place it would be possible to get the data from a web
service like this.

I think that there is a feature request for a place database. Perhaps we
could create plugins to access web services?

This would make a good project for someone.

Nick.


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