Query re Sources, Citations and Endnotes

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Query re Sources, Citations and Endnotes

Darryl Fallow
I am relatively new to Gramps and am having some apparent problems with repositories, sources and citations.   I am using Gramps V4.0.1 on an Apple MacBook Pro.

I have set up Repositories such as:

        Family Search Archive
        FreeBMD - Search Archive
        General Register Office - England Archive
        National Library of New Zealand Library
        NZ Births, Deaths & Marriages Archive
        UK Census on-line Archive
So far so good.

I record two sources for a birth
         -  one from the FreeBMD Index which gives me approximate date to the nearest quarter together with location and index of the register
         - one from an actual birth certificate
The FreeBMD Source is listed as: Title: Birth Index Record; Author: General Register Office - England associated with Repository R1 General REgister Office - England ID: S0007
The Citation for this Source is:
                Citation Information Date: Null field;
                                                                          ID: C0006;
                                                                          Volume/Page: Sept 1841 Clerkenwell Vol 3 Page 78
                                                                          Confidence: Normal
                Shared Information Source Title: Birth Index Record
                                                                                        Author: General Register Office - England
                                                                                        ID: S0003
                                                                               
The Source for the Birth Index Record is listed as: Title: Birth Index Record;   Author: General Register Office - England;   ID: S0007  

The Citation for this Source is listed as:
                Citation Information Date: Null field;
                                                                          ID: C0006;
                                                                          Volume/Page: BXCC041985 (the number on the Certified copy of the birth certificate I received)
                                                                          Confidence: Very High
                Shared Information Source Title: Certified Copy of Birth Certificate
                                                                                        Author: General Register Office - England
                                                                                        ID: S0001

When I print a Complete Individual Report I get:

                .
                .
                Birth: 21 August in 3 Goswell Terrace, Clerkenwell 1a,  2a
                .
                .
                Endnotes:
       
                1.   General Register Office - England, "Certified Copy of Birth Certificate"
                        a: BXCG041985[Very High]
                2.   General Register Office - England, "Birth Record Index"
                        a: Sept 1841 Clerkenwell Vol 3 Page 78

That's fine - but is this what I should be expecting and what do the 'a:' s  refer to?   Does this presuppose that there could be a 'b:' or a 'c:' and, if so, under what conditions would these appear?  

In another case where a source was listed but there is no Citation I just end up with for example:
        .
        .
        Census
        6 June 1841 Goswell St, Clerkenwell 3
        1851 Goswell St, Clerkenwell 4a
        .
        .
        Endnotes
        .
        .
        3 "England and Wales Census 1841" in this case there was no citation as I do not (yet) have any further detailed info or reference information
        4 "England and Wales Census 1851"
                a: Goswell St Metropolitan Buildings Line 218 in this case I had access to a copy of the record.

I would be grateful for any comments on whether I am handling Sources and Citations in Gramps in the right way, as I think it is important to get this correct before developing the tree in too much detail.   I have downloaded some examples from he web.   However any further tips / hints would be welcome.

Thanks.


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Re: Query re Sources, Citations and Endnotes

enno
Darryl,
> I am relatively new to Gramps and am having some apparent problems with repositories, sources and citations.
I hope my comments help ...

> When I print a Complete Individual Report I get:
>
> .
> .
> Birth: 21 August in 3 Goswell Terrace, Clerkenwell 1a,  2a
> .
> .
> Endnotes:
>
> 1.   General Register Office - England, "Certified Copy of Birth Certificate"
> a: BXCG041985[Very High]
> 2.   General Register Office - England, "Birth Record Index"
> a: Sept 1841 Clerkenwell Vol 3 Page 78
>
> That's fine - but is this what I should be expecting and what do the 'a:' s  refer to?   Does this presuppose that there could be a 'b:' or a 'c:' and, if so, under what conditions would these appear?
I don't print reports myself, but what you see looks logical to me. The
numbered entries are sources, and the a's refer to the citations
associated with each source. You will see b's and c's when you add more
citations to the same source.

> In another case where a source was listed but there is no Citation I just end up with for example:
> .
> .
> Census
> 6 June 1841 Goswell St, Clerkenwell 3
> 1851 Goswell St, Clerkenwell 4a
> .
> .
> Endnotes
> .
> .
> 3 "England and Wales Census 1841" in this case there was no citation as I do not (yet) have any further detailed info or reference information
> 4 "England and Wales Census 1851"
> a: Goswell St Metropolitan Buildings Line 218 in this case I had access to a copy of the record.
>
> I would be grateful for any comments on whether I am handling Sources and Citations in Gramps in the right way, as I think it is important to get this correct before developing the tree in too much detail.   I have downloaded some examples from he web.   However any further tips / hints would be welcome.
Well, as far as I'm concerned, you're doing good. Handling sources and
citations is not always easy, and directions that you find on the web
may not always work for you, so this is an area where it helps to make a
choice yourself, and stick to that.

regards,

Enno


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Re: Query re Sources, Citations and Endnotes

jerome
In reply to this post by Darryl Fallow
Darryl,

 > I would be grateful for any comments on whether I am handling
Sources and Citations in Gramps in the right way, as I think it is
important to get this correct before developing the tree in too much
detail. I have downloaded some examples from he web. However any
further tips / hints would be welcome.

There is no common model!

Also, we started to list some citation examples.

See:
https://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Category:Citation_Examples

https://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=GEPS_015:_Repository_Research_Support#See_also

Feel free to complete, make alternate ways, or create new one.

There is also some proposals for enhancement:

https://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=GEPS_018:_Evidence_style_sources

https://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=GEPS_024:_Natural_transcription_of_Records



Le mar. 11 mars 2014 at 11:48, Darryl Fallow <[hidden email]>
a écrit :

> I am relatively new to Gramps and am having some apparent problems
> with repositories, sources and citations.   I am using Gramps V4.0.1
> on an Apple MacBook Pro.
>
> I have set up Repositories such as:
>
> Family Search Archive
> FreeBMD - Search Archive
> General Register Office - England Archive
> National Library of New Zealand Library
> NZ Births, Deaths & Marriages Archive
> UK Census on-line Archive
> So far so good.
>
> I record two sources for a birth
> -  one from the FreeBMD Index which gives me approximate date to
> the nearest quarter together with location and index of the register
> - one from an actual birth certificate
> The FreeBMD Source is listed as: Title: Birth Index Record; Author:
> General Register Office - England associated with Repository R1
> General REgister Office - England ID: S0007
> The Citation for this Source is:
> Citation Information Date: Null field;
> ID: C0006;
> Volume/Page: Sept 1841 Clerkenwell Vol 3 Page 78
> Confidence: Normal
> Shared Information Source Title: Birth Index Record
> Author: General Register Office - England
> ID: S0003
>
> The Source for the Birth Index Record is listed as: Title: Birth
> Index Record;   Author: General Register Office - England;   ID:
> S0007  
>
> The Citation for this Source is listed as:
> Citation Information Date: Null field;
> ID: C0006;
> Volume/Page: BXCC041985 (the number on the Certified
> copy of the birth certificate I received)
> Confidence: Very High
> Shared Information Source Title: Certified Copy of Birth
> Certificate
> Author: General Register Office - England
> ID: S0001
>
> When I print a Complete Individual Report I get:
>
> .
> .
> Birth: 21 August in 3 Goswell Terrace, Clerkenwell 1a,  2a
> .
> .
> Endnotes:
>
> 1.   General Register Office - England, "Certified Copy of Birth
> Certificate"
> a: BXCG041985[Very High]
> 2.   General Register Office - England, "Birth Record Index"
> a: Sept 1841 Clerkenwell Vol 3 Page 78
>
> That's fine - but is this what I should be expecting and what do the
> 'a:' s  refer to?   Does this presuppose that there could be a 'b:'
> or a 'c:' and, if so, under what conditions would these appear?  
>
> In another case where a source was listed but there is no Citation I
> just end up with for example:
> .
> .
> Census
> 6 June 1841 Goswell St, Clerkenwell 3
> 1851 Goswell St, Clerkenwell 4a
> .
> .
> Endnotes
> .
> .
> 3 "England and Wales Census 1841" in this case there was no
> citation as I do not (yet) have any further detailed info or
> reference information
> 4 "England and Wales Census 1851"
> a: Goswell St Metropolitan Buildings Line 218 in this case I had
> access to a copy of the record.
>
> I would be grateful for any comments on whether I am handling Sources
> and Citations in Gramps in the right way, as I think it is important
> to get this correct before developing the tree in too much detail.  
> I have downloaded some examples from he web.   However any further
> tips / hints would be welcome.
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and
> their
> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech
> _______________________________________________
> Gramps-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
>


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Re: Query re Sources, Citations and Endnotes

Nick Hall-6
In reply to this post by Darryl Fallow
On 11/03/14 10:48, Darryl Fallow wrote:
> I would be grateful for any comments on whether I am handling Sources and Citations in Gramps in the right way, as I think it is important to get this correct before developing the tree in too much detail.   I have downloaded some examples from he web.   However any further tips / hints would be welcome.

These examples look good to me.  I have a couple of comments:

1. For birth, marriage and death certificates, consider using the
person's name rather than certificate number as the reference.  This
will be more useful on reports, especially when using it a a source for
a different person.  You could store the certificate number as a
citation attribute.

2. For English census references it is more usual to specify a Class,
Piece, Folio and Page rather than an address and line number.

Where did you find a census record without a reference?

One final tip - only add a single repository to a source.  Gramps allows
you to add multiple repositories, but if you do this you won't know
which repository you actually used.


Nick.

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Re: Query re Sources, Citations and Endnotes

Darryl Fallow
In reply to this post by jerome
Jerome:

Thanks for the comments.   Nice to get some input from France!
I have looked at some of the links before, but GEPS_024 is new (to me).
I will review the links that you mention, and take care to develop a consistent approach to by Sources and Citations.
Regards
Darryl.

On 13/03/2014, at 1:53 AM, Jerome <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Darryl,
>
> > I would be grateful for any comments on whether I am handling Sources and Citations in Gramps in the right way, as I think it is important to get this correct before developing the tree in too much detail. I have downloaded some examples from he web. However any further tips / hints would be welcome.
>
> There is no common model!
>
> Also, we started to list some citation examples.
>
> See: https://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Category:Citation_Examples
>
> https://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=GEPS_015:_Repository_Research_Support#See_also
>
> Feel free to complete, make alternate ways, or create new one.
>
> There is also some proposals for enhancement:
>
> https://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=GEPS_018:_Evidence_style_sources
>
> https://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=GEPS_024:_Natural_transcription_of_Records


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Re: Query re Sources, Citations and Endnotes

Darryl Fallow
In reply to this post by Darryl Fallow
Thanks for the comments Nick.
1.   Yes, I agree the Name will be more useful as a citation.   I have not delved into attributes yet, but will do so.   I may learn some more!

2.   Understood.   However on the the image of the census form that I have (originally obtained via Ancestry, I think), there was no Folio and Page Name that I could see.    The standard heading for the columns was visible at the top of the page, but it is possible that some other info at the top of the document page was not imaged.    I will check further.

3.   The Census information reference was taken from UK Census on-line.   I just typed in the Forename and Surname of my ancestor, filtered on the 1841 census and obtained two entries listing only Forename, Surname, Age, Occupation, County, Estimated Year of Birth and place of birth.   I have not (yet) taken out a subscription with UK Census on-line, so have not (yet) been able to see the image of the original document which may give additional details.   The actual SOURCE was the following link:
 http://www.ukcensusonline.com/search/index.php?fn=Charles+J&sn=Webster&event=1851&phonetic_mode=0&year=&range=0&105e8=ce3f593321105e8&search=Search 
        but I am not sure that quoting a web reference like this is the right way to quote a source either, as links can sometimes change.

I also have a similar problem with some of the Census Information obtained from FamilySearch where there does not seem to be a FamilySearch reference number (eg film no.  Batch No, as in the marriage references). However, one can quote name, England & Wales Census 1841, Registration District, subdistrict, parish and county.
Interestingly,  while I can find the son of one of my ancestors in a 1871 Census listing on FamilySearch (which lists all household members, including the Head of Household) on searching  for the 'Head of the House' there is no Census listing.   I think I will take out a sub for UK Census on-line and have a look at some of the images - that may reveal further information.

Thanks all for the input - it has been most helpful.

Regards

Darryl  
 

> Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 19:04:15 +0000
> From: Nick Hall <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] Query re Sources, Citations and Endnotes
> To: [hidden email]
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> On 11/03/14 10:48, Darryl Fallow wrote:
>> I would be grateful for any comments on whether I am handling Sources and Citations in Gramps in the right way, as I think it is important to get this correct before developing the tree in too much detail.   I have downloaded some examples from he web.   However any further tips / hints would be welcome.
>
> These examples look good to me.  I have a couple of comments:
>
> 1. For birth, marriage and death certificates, consider using the
> person's name rather than certificate number as the reference.  This
> will be more useful on reports, especially when using it a a source for
> a different person.  You could store the certificate number as a
> citation attribute.
>
> 2. For English census references it is more usual to specify a Class,
> Piece, Folio and Page rather than an address and line number.
>
> Where did you find a census record without a reference?
>
> One final tip - only add a single repository to a source.  Gramps allows
> you to add multiple repositories, but if you do this you won't know
> which repository you actually used.
>
>
> Nick.

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Re: Query re Sources, Citations and Endnotes

Nick Hall-6
On 14/03/14 05:59, Darryl Fallow wrote:
3.   The Census information reference was taken from UK Census on-line.   I just typed in the Forename and Surname of my ancestor, filtered on the 1841 census and obtained two entries listing only Forename, Surname, Age, Occupation, County, Estimated Year of Birth and place of birth.   I have not (yet) taken out a subscription with UK Census on-line, so have not (yet) been able to see the image of the original document which may give additional details.   The actual SOURCE was the following link:
 http://www.ukcensusonline.com/search/index.php?fn=Charles+J&sn=Webster&event=1851&phonetic_mode=0&year=&range=0&105e8=ce3f593321105e8&search=Search 
	but I am not sure that quoting a web reference like this is the right way to quote a source either, as links can sometimes change.

Correct.  You should also record the search terms you used.  The link can be recorded in a note.

In your example the actual reference is:

Class: HO107; Piece: 1496; Folio: 1034; Page: 49

This is unique and would enable you to locate the original document in the National Archives.



I also have a similar problem with some of the Census Information obtained from FamilySearch where there does not seem to be a FamilySearch reference number (eg film no.  Batch No, as in the marriage references). However, one can quote name, England & Wales Census 1841, Registration District, subdistrict, parish and county.

FamilySearch sometimes gives a full reference.

You will see the class and piece on all images.  The folio number is stamped on each sheet (every other page).  The page number is printed on each page.  These are often listed in transcripts.


Interestingly,  while I can find the son of one of my ancestors in a 1871 Census listing on FamilySearch (which lists all household members, including the Head of Household) on searching  for the 'Head of the House' there is no Census listing.   I think I will take out a sub for UK Census on-line and have a look at some of the images - that may reveal further information.

I haven't used ukcensusonline.com before.  You could also have a look at ancestry.co.uk or findmypast.co.uk for census records.

Ancestry has records from the London Metropolitan Archives which may be useful to you.  I found a marriage and baptism for a Charles J Webster when I looked up your census reference.


Nick.


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Re: Query re Sources, Citations and Endnotes

enno
Darryl,
> I haven't used ukcensusonline.com before.  You could also have a look
> at ancestry.co.uk or findmypast.co.uk for census records.
>
> Ancestry has records from the London Metropolitan Archives which may
> be useful to you.  I found a marriage and baptism for a Charles J
> Webster when I looked up your census reference.
I second Nick's advice. I have an Ancestry subscription since Nick found
some useful records there, and the Class, Piece, Folio, and Page items
can all be found on-site. I haven't checked how these export to GEDCOM,
but there's no need to subscribe to UK census online for these, if
that's what you intend.

This does not mean that I'm against that site. I live in a country where
access to most records is free, so pay sites are not really my cup of
tea. What I do see however is that records wise, Ancestry covers
everything I need from the UK right now, and has scans that find my past
doesn't have.

cheers,

Enno


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