Re: Discussion about gramps/example.gramp

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Re: Discussion about gramps/example.gramp

GRAMPS - Dev mailing list
Glenn,

I miss your meaning in several places of this message. The writing hints at issues rather than stating them explicitly.

When you say: "I've had cause to use this database and some assembly is obviously required."
Are you saying the Example.gramps is incomplete?  Or suggesting an 'Example' Tree should be a pre-loaded item in the initial  Open dialog?

When you say: "It probably made good sense with earlier gramps version to have it structured like this, however I don't see that argument working with Version 5.0.0."
What Argument? And do you see some fundamental change from previous versions that would require a fundamental re-think of organization?

.

--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 10/12/18, Glenn McK <[hidden email]> wrote:
Subject: [Gramps-devel] Discussion about gramps/example.gramps
 To: "gramps-devel" <[hidden email]>
 Date: Friday, October 12, 2018, 11:22 PM
 
 Firstly, not sure if here is the best spot for this, or whether it should just go straight to bug tracker.
 
 I've had cause to use this database and some assembly is obviously required.
 https://gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php/Example.gramps
 I'm also in the process of tweaking the wiki pages that reference this so...
 
 It probably made good sense with earlier gramps version to have it structured like this, however I don't see that argument working with Version 5.0.0. Currently the directory has 12 jpgs and 2 data files. The jpgs are required by the datafiles, but are also split between them. To a casual observer it doesn't make immediate sense.
 
 12 x
 /usr/share/doc/gramps/example/gramps/*various*.jpg
 1 x
 /usr/share/doc/gramps/example/gramps/data.gramps.gz
 1 x
 /usr/share/doc/gramps/example/gramps/example.gramps.gz
 
 It appears, to my non developer eye, to be far simpler to supply the 2 databases as example.gpkg and data.gpkg. ie: Version 5 style complete backups - images and data all in one just ready to be imported. On the off chance that the files would need to be unpacked for earlier versions then a short readme explaining that renaming them as .tgz . tar.gz files will allow their extraction.
 
 As for having two database files, are both of them even still needed? I recognize the pic in data.gramps so I suspect that's the original test database. Example.gramps is a larger database and is referenced from the wiki so I'm guessing that's now the preferred one. That whole example/gramps directory could be pruned down to just one file, no decision making or further head scratching required.
 
 Packaging them as .gpkg files would simplify the wiki entry enormously. Having just one would be simpler still. More importantly though, it would reduce some of the work in creating a bug report in that first instance. I feel that replicating the example database is a little tedious at the moment, for a rank beginner it might be just the excuse to stop a bug report in mid stride.
 
 Thoughts, comments?
 Take it to bug tracker?
 
 --
 Cheers
  Glenn
 
 rorpi - read only raspberry pi & various weewx addons
 https://github.com/glennmckechnie
 
 
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Re: Discussion about gramps/example.gramp

Ross Gammon
Hi Glenn,

I won't comment on the *.gramps vs *.gpkg part, but you don't say why
you needed the example database.

These eample databases are not actually compressed in the release
tarball from the Gramps project. It is the Linux distributions that
compress them when they package the application. This goes for all
applications. It is rare that general users access the documentation and
examples in usr/share/doc. If all applications had completely
uncompressed documentation, upgrade times for all packages would
increase significantly (especially on slow connections), as well as
cause problems with the extra space used on hard disks.

It is good that the wiki explains how to use the files before reporting
a bug to the Gramps bug tracker, and explains that the decompression
step is required. Perhaps adding the actual command to do this
extraction would be an improvement.

Also, it might be a good idea to add a link to how to run Gramps
directly from source, for those that would like to more regularly
contribute to Gramps.

Cheers,

Ross


On 10/13/2018 08:58 AM, Emyoulation--- via Gramps-devel wrote:

> Glenn,
>
> I miss your meaning in several places of this message. The writing hints at issues rather than stating them explicitly.
>
> When you say: "I've had cause to use this database and some assembly is obviously required."
> Are you saying the Example.gramps is incomplete?  Or suggesting an 'Example' Tree should be a pre-loaded item in the initial  Open dialog?
>
> When you say: "It probably made good sense with earlier gramps version to have it structured like this, however I don't see that argument working with Version 5.0.0."
> What Argument? And do you see some fundamental change from previous versions that would require a fundamental re-think of organization?
>
> .
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Fri, 10/12/18, Glenn McK <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Subject: [Gramps-devel] Discussion about gramps/example.gramps
>  To: "gramps-devel" <[hidden email]>
>  Date: Friday, October 12, 2018, 11:22 PM
>  
>  Firstly, not sure if here is the best spot for this, or whether it should just go straight to bug tracker.
>  
>  I've had cause to use this database and some assembly is obviously required.
>  https://gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php/Example.gramps
>  I'm also in the process of tweaking the wiki pages that reference this so...
>  
>  It probably made good sense with earlier gramps version to have it structured like this, however I don't see that argument working with Version 5.0.0. Currently the directory has 12 jpgs and 2 data files. The jpgs are required by the datafiles, but are also split between them. To a casual observer it doesn't make immediate sense.
>  
>  12 x
>  /usr/share/doc/gramps/example/gramps/*various*.jpg
>  1 x
>  /usr/share/doc/gramps/example/gramps/data.gramps.gz
>  1 x
>  /usr/share/doc/gramps/example/gramps/example.gramps.gz
>  
>  It appears, to my non developer eye, to be far simpler to supply the 2 databases as example.gpkg and data.gpkg. ie: Version 5 style complete backups - images and data all in one just ready to be imported. On the off chance that the files would need to be unpacked for earlier versions then a short readme explaining that renaming them as .tgz . tar.gz files will allow their extraction.
>  
>  As for having two database files, are both of them even still needed? I recognize the pic in data.gramps so I suspect that's the original test database. Example.gramps is a larger database and is referenced from the wiki so I'm guessing that's now the preferred one. That whole example/gramps directory could be pruned down to just one file, no decision making or further head scratching required.
>  
>  Packaging them as .gpkg files would simplify the wiki entry enormously. Having just one would be simpler still. More importantly though, it would reduce some of the work in creating a bug report in that first instance. I feel that replicating the example database is a little tedious at the moment, for a rank beginner it might be just the excuse to stop a bug report in mid stride.
>  
>  Thoughts, comments?
>  Take it to bug tracker?
>  
>  --
>  Cheers
>   Glenn
>  
>  rorpi - read only raspberry pi & various weewx addons
>  https://github.com/glennmckechnie
>  
>  
>  _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gramps-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-devel
>



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Re: Discussion about gramps/example.gramp

Glenn McK
In reply to this post by GRAMPS - Dev mailing list


On 13 October 2018 at 17:58, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
Glenn,

I miss your meaning in several places of this message. The writing hints at issues rather than stating them explicitly.

When you say: "I've had cause to use this database and some assembly is obviously required."
Are you saying the Example.gramps is incomplete?  Or suggesting an 'Example' Tree should be a pre-loaded item in the initial  Open dialog?
 
I've used this database so have gone through the process of assembling it, putting it together into a working database. --  It requires a few steps to do that. Steps that I think can be reduced if someone wants to use that database.

It's not incomplete, it is all there within that folder.
However, To use it as a test database, as the wiki describes, you need to import the gramps file and then important the images from a new directory. That isn't a big deal but it can be imported as one file with version 5, images and database ready to use, straight after the 2 step import operation.
I talk about version 5 as that is the one I'm most familiar with. I only had brief use of version 4.X before the system upgraded it. My last usage of Gramps was in 2007 so my memory is sketchy with older versions.

No, I'm not suggesting it be preloaded in the Initial Open dialog, although that may not be a bad thing as it is a working example and is interesting viewing.
 

When you say: "It probably made good sense with earlier gramps version to have it structured like this, however I don't see that argument working with Version 5.0.0."
What Argument? And do you see some fundamental change from previous versions that would require a fundamental re-think of organization?

I'm making an assumption as to why it is provided as individual files. My recollection of earlier gramps versions doesn't include an import option as provided in Version 5

Argument, doesn't mean that I'm arguing as such. -- It's an expression meant to convey that the reason for doing it that way the first time may not be relevant now.
I don't know what the reasons were then, but I cannot see a reason for not doing it now.
If there is a reason then tell me and I'll be better informed.
 
With version 5, it can be imported as a complete package, there appears to be no need to have it as individual files that need to be manipulated by the user.
If this can be done, the wiki steps can be simplified, and the user can complete the process quicker and easier.
In earlier versions this may have been required, with version 5 there is no need to do it this way, they can be packaged into the one file and the user can import that package in a reduced number of steps.

I don't see a fundamental rethink of organization occurring in what I propose, far from it.
It is a simplification that would appear to fit in with improvements, changes in gramps.  I see improvements in gramps that allow the important of that example directory as one simple file - or 2 if you retain both databases. That last is not a decision I make, but a question that I ask.

Do we / you as developers, need 2 databases as examples?

Do you see that the change I'm proposing as an improvement in line with the changes that have already occurred in gramps.



--
Cheers
 Glenn


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Re: Discussion about gramps/example.gramp

Glenn McK
In reply to this post by Ross Gammon
Hi Ross,

On 13 October 2018 at 18:51, Ross Gammon <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Glenn,

I won't comment on the *.gramps vs *.gpkg part, but you don't say why
you needed the example database.

For a bug report, to see if what was happening in my database occured in a 'known' good one.
 

These eample databases are not actually compressed in the release
tarball from the Gramps project. It is the Linux distributions that
compress them when they package the application.

You are correct, I hadn't noticed that as the version I used was direct from gramps @ github.
Since then I've been using the compressed version in the local tree (now that I've found them)
 
This goes for all
applications. It is rare that general users access the documentation and
examples in usr/share/doc.

True, but seeing as it's all there, and on the off chance that someone else does go down the same path...
 
[...]

It is good that the wiki explains how to use the files before reporting
a bug to the Gramps bug tracker, and explains that the decompression
step is required. Perhaps adding the actual command to do this
extraction would be an improvement.
 
A good point, it is missing.
 

Also, it might be a good idea to add a link to how to run Gramps
directly from source, for those that would like to more regularly
contribute to Gramps.

I'll pass on that one, at least until I find out how to myself, or find the wiki entry?

--
Cheers
 Glenn

rorpi - read only raspberry pi & various weewx addons
https://github.com/glennmckechnie


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Re: Discussion about gramps/example.gramp

enno
In reply to this post by Glenn McK

Hi Glenn,

It's not incomplete, it is all there within that folder.
However, To use it as a test database, as the wiki describes, you need to import the gramps file and then important the images from a new directory. That isn't a big deal but it can be imported as one file with version 5, images and database ready to use, straight after the 2 step import operation.
It can, but that's risky, because for Gramps, importing a backup with images is more work, so it introduces more places where things can go wrong. And when things go wrong, you typically need to take small steps to analyze things. That's why I often use a debugger at work.

Also, there really is no need to copy the images to a new directory, and the wiki doesn't tell you that you should. It's an option. But when you import example.gramps, it seems that on Windows 10, you need to correct the media path, because if you don't, you can't see the images in the media view. So on Windows, that looks like a bug.

 

When you say: "It probably made good sense with earlier gramps version to have it structured like this, however I don't see that argument working with Version 5.0.0."
What Argument? And do you see some fundamental change from previous versions that would require a fundamental re-think of organization?

I'm making an assumption as to why it is provided as individual files. My recollection of earlier gramps versions doesn't include an import option as provided in Version 5

Argument, doesn't mean that I'm arguing as such. -- It's an expression meant to convey that the reason for doing it that way the first time may not be relevant now.
I don't know what the reasons were then, but I cannot see a reason for not doing it now.
If there is a reason then tell me and I'll be better informed.
Your argument is based on a red herring. The reality is that there is no new backup format at all. Backups with media can be made and imported in Gramps 3.4 too, and maybe even older versions, and the only thing that changed in version 5 is that these backups are made on exit now, unless switched off.

With version 5, it can be imported as a complete package, there appears to be no need to have it as individual files that need to be manipulated by the user.
See above. There is no need to manipulate individual files.

If this can be done, the wiki steps can be simplified, and the user can complete the process quicker and easier.
Not true. When you import a backup with media, which is something that I really hate, Gramps will create a new media folder in a place where I don't want it, and for which I know that it confuses many. We had an elderly user in the user forum who really didn't get it, not even when a fellow American tried to explain in to her. I'm a Dutchman, so there was a language barrier, but even without that, it didn't work.

In earlier versions this may have been required, with version 5 there is no need to do it this way, they can be packaged into the one file and the user can import that package in a reduced number of steps.
Again, see above. Backups with media go back to version 3, and maybe even earlier.

I don't see a fundamental rethink of organization occurring in what I propose, far from it.
It is a simplification that would appear to fit in with improvements, changes in gramps.  I see improvements in gramps that allow the important of that example directory as one simple file - or 2 if you retain both databases. That last is not a decision I make, but a question that I ask.
You're wrong. It's not a simplification, because it creates a media folder that you really don't need to access the media. Gramps can find the media once the media path is corrected, which is a bug in the Windows version. I don't know about the Linux version though, because I use Gramps 3.4.9.

Do you see that the change I'm proposing as an improvement in line with the changes that have already occurred in gramps.
No. There were no changes. Imports with media create folders that confuse some of our users, and they create extra points of failure which we really don't want for testing. They're a nuisance.

That said, I do think that the wiki page can be improved, and we need to test its accuracy against all known platforms.

Cheers,

Enno



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Re: Discussion about gramps/example.gramp

John Ralls-2


On Oct 13, 2018, at 6:51 AM, Enno Borgsteede <[hidden email]> wrote:

That said, I do think that the wiki page can be improved, and we need to test its accuracy against all known platforms.

Accordingly, I’ve corrected the wiki page’s bullet on MacOS. The example database isn’t included in the Mac bundle (and if it was it wouldn’t be in the user’s config directory, it would be inside the bundle). Nobody’s complained in the 9 years I’ve been packaging Gramps, so I don’t see any reason that it should be.

I don’t think we even want users to routinely test with the example database before filing a bug report. In most cases that would be a waste of time. There may be occasions when a developer might find it useful and in those cases he can walk the reporter through the process.

Regards,
John Ralls



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Re: Discussion about gramps/example.gramp

GRAMPS - Dev mailing list
John,

After decades of professional bug testing and managing support centers, I have to disagree with not including the example.gramps sample file with the Mac version. (Even though I'm not using the Mac version and users haven't complained.)

The example.gramps file is a baseline reference for writing tutorials and for users to try out the features & techniques.

In bug testing, the value isn't limited to simplifying and isolating the reproduction steps for new bug reports.  It can also be used to prove when a 'bug' doesn't occur in all trees.  So it allows us to more gently re-focus an insistent (and occasionally irate) user towards fixing their tree corruption rather than foisting the blame on Gramps.

Lastly, you may be too experienced to relate to the fears of a newbie.  But having an example to explore as you're getting started can relieve a LOT of anxiety. It also allows a User to assess Gramps Reports, Graphs and Tools without investing all the effort of building a family grouping. (Although I wish the Home person, Edwin Michael Smith, had a bit more mutiple-marriage & descendant depth to show-off some more of the graph features.)

Having examples with advanced features (like non-European character sets, pictures, repositories, et cetera) encourages users to experiment with features they might otherwise avoid. Certainly, I am loathe to experiment with a new feature in my primary Tree.  A Throw-Away tree allows me to experiment and make intentional mistakes where they don't matter. It allows me to develop healthy Bonsai skills before mangling the branches of my Tree.

-Brian

On Saturday, October 13, 2018, 10:00:50 AM CDT, John Ralls <[hidden email]> wrote:




On Oct 13, 2018, at 6:51 AM, Enno Borgsteede <[hidden email]> wrote:

That said, I do think that the wiki page can be improved, and we need to test its accuracy against all known platforms.


Accordingly, I’ve corrected the wiki page’s bullet on MacOS. The example database isn’t included in the Mac bundle (and if it was it wouldn’t be in the user’s config directory, it would be inside the bundle). Nobody’s complained in the 9 years I’ve been packaging Gramps, so I don’t see any reason that it should be.

I don’t think we even want users to routinely test with the example database before filing a bug report. In most cases that would be a waste of time. There may be occasions when a developer might find it useful and in those cases he can walk the reporter through the process.

Regards,
John Ralls

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Re: Discussion about gramps/example.gramp

enno
Op 13-10-18 om 17:35 schreef [hidden email]:
After decades of professional bug testing and managing support centers, I have to disagree with not including the example.gramps sample file with the Mac version. (Even though I'm not using the Mac version and users haven't complained.)
I'm not very familiar with current Macs, but knowing the average user of what I see as a closed system, I doubt that he or she will find our test data. Same for Windows users, who have to look inside the Program Files folder.

The example.gramps file is a baseline reference for writing tutorials and for users to try out the features & techniques.

In bug testing, the value isn't limited to simplifying and isolating the reproduction steps for new bug reports.  It can also be used to prove when a 'bug' doesn't occur in all trees.  So it allows us to more gently re-focus an insistent (and occasionally irate) user towards fixing their tree corruption rather than foisting the blame on Gramps.

Lastly, you may be too experienced to relate to the fears of a newbie.  But having an example to explore as you're getting started can relieve a LOT of anxiety. It also allows a User to assess Gramps Reports, Graphs and Tools without investing all the effort of building a family grouping. (Although I wish the Home person, Edwin Michael Smith, had a bit more mutiple-marriage & descendant depth to show-off some more of the graph features.)

Having examples with advanced features (like non-European character sets, pictures, repositories, et cetera) encourages users to experiment with features they might otherwise avoid. Certainly, I am loathe to experiment with a new feature in my primary Tree.  A Throw-Away tree allows me to experiment and make intentional mistakes where they don't matter. It allows me to develop healthy Bonsai skills before mangling the branches of my Tree.
While that is true, this can also be achieved by having a separate download that works for all platforms, one that Linux & Windows users will find in the download folder, where it is way more visible, and where it can be thrown away.

Regards,

Enno



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Re: Discussion about gramps/example.gramp

John Ralls-2
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Brian,

For evaluating bugs: No, it's nowhere near comprehensive enough to be routinely useful for that. That a bug manifests in the user's data and not in the example seldom reveals anything beyond that the example doesn't have the right data to even exercise the feature that's causing the user trouble.

For user exploration: That's an argument for having it in the Family Tree Manager at first startup. No newbie is going to find it any other way. Since Mac uses a drag-and-drop installation that would require some sort of "first run" logic in Gramps that creates an empty sample database in the user's database directory, imports the sample there, and adjusts the media paths.

Regards,
John Ralls


> On Oct 13, 2018, at 8:35 AM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> John,
>
> After decades of professional bug testing and managing support centers, I have to disagree with not including the example.gramps sample file with the Mac version. (Even though I'm not using the Mac version and users haven't complained.)
>
> The example.gramps file is a baseline reference for writing tutorials and for users to try out the features & techniques.
>
> In bug testing, the value isn't limited to simplifying and isolating the reproduction steps for new bug reports.  It can also be used to prove when a 'bug' doesn't occur in all trees.  So it allows us to more gently re-focus an insistent (and occasionally irate) user towards fixing their tree corruption rather than foisting the blame on Gramps.
>
> Lastly, you may be too experienced to relate to the fears of a newbie.  But having an example to explore as you're getting started can relieve a LOT of anxiety. It also allows a User to assess Gramps Reports, Graphs and Tools without investing all the effort of building a family grouping. (Although I wish the Home person, Edwin Michael Smith, had a bit more mutiple-marriage & descendant depth to show-off some more of the graph features.)
>
> Having examples with advanced features (like non-European character sets, pictures, repositories, et cetera) encourages users to experiment with features they might otherwise avoid. Certainly, I am loathe to experiment with a new feature in my primary Tree.  A Throw-Away tree allows me to experiment and make intentional mistakes where they don't matter. It allows me to develop healthy Bonsai skills before mangling the branches of my Tree.
>
> -Brian
>
> On Saturday, October 13, 2018, 10:00:50 AM CDT, John Ralls <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>> On Oct 13, 2018, at 6:51 AM, Enno Borgsteede <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> That said, I do think that the wiki page can be improved, and we need to test its accuracy against all known platforms.
>>
>
> Accordingly, I’ve corrected the wiki page’s bullet on MacOS. The example database isn’t included in the Mac bundle (and if it was it wouldn’t be in the user’s config directory, it would be inside the bundle). Nobody’s complained in the 9 years I’ve been packaging Gramps, so I don’t see any reason that it should be.
>
> I don’t think we even want users to routinely test with the example database before filing a bug report. In most cases that would be a waste of time. There may be occasions when a developer might find it useful and in those cases he can walk the reporter through the process.
>
> Regards,
> John Ralls
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gramps-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-devel



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Re: Discussion about gramps/example.gramp

GRAMPS - Dev mailing list
In reply to this post by enno
I did a bit of tweaking to the wiki document.  Please look it over and critique.

Among other things, consolidated the Linux related lines in Step 1,  so that they aren't divided by a Mac line. And moved the Media Path reset... they can be done optionally after the critical steps. Logically, it didn't make sense to change the media path before importing if importing can change the media path.

Also added a Stats dialog capture (with the actual stats in Text for easier updating. Added links to other pages that give greater detail for the curious. (Including the XML format used by the .gramps format.)  Also found New User oriented pages Links to 6 of the 10 record types imported with the example.gramps file. 

But haven't yet found introductory Gramps Wiki pages to link for People, Families, Media Objects, and Notes. Unlike the other 8 record types, the pages I've found are reference pages with dry definitions rather than why the record types are organizationally useful to genealogists.
Any page suggestions?

I've avoided Media Objects previously. (They added more file management than I wanted to hassle with. And they grew the size of the file being shared by eMail with other family members.  I need to keep the attachments under 10MB to avoid some eMail gateway limits.)  So I'm exploring and documenting with a newbie attitude.

Importing the example.gramps file in Windows does something different than described in the wiki page. Rather than leave it blank, it sets the "Base path for relative media paths:" to:
{GRAMPS_RESOURCES}/example/gramps

And so far, I've found nothing in the Gramps Wiki about "{GRAMPS_RESOURCES}"

-Brian


On Saturday, October 13, 2018, 8:52:39 AM CDT, Enno Borgsteede <[hidden email]> wrote:


Hi Glenn,

It's not incomplete, it is all there within that folder.
However, To use it as a test database, as the wiki describes, you need to import the gramps file and then important the images from a new directory. That isn't a big deal but it can be imported as one file with version 5, images and database ready to use, straight after the 2 step import operation.
It can, but that's risky, because for Gramps, importing a backup with images is more work, so it introduces more places where things can go wrong. And when things go wrong, you typically need to take small steps to analyze things. That's why I often use a debugger at work.

Also, there really is no need to copy the images to a new directory, and the wiki doesn't tell you that you should. It's an option. But when you import example.gramps, it seems that on Windows 10, you need to correct the media path, because if you don't, you can't see the images in the media view. So on Windows, that looks like a bug.

 

When you say: "It probably made good sense with earlier gramps version to have it structured like this, however I don't see that argument working with Version 5.0.0."
What Argument? And do you see some fundamental change from previous versions that would require a fundamental re-think of organization?

I'm making an assumption as to why it is provided as individual files. My recollection of earlier gramps versions doesn't include an import option as provided in Version 5

Argument, doesn't mean that I'm arguing as such. -- It's an expression meant to convey that the reason for doing it that way the first time may not be relevant now.
I don't know what the reasons were then, but I cannot see a reason for not doing it now.
If there is a reason then tell me and I'll be better informed.
Your argument is based on a red herring. The reality is that there is no new backup format at all. Backups with media can be made and imported in Gramps 3.4 too, and maybe even older versions, and the only thing that changed in version 5 is that these backups are made on exit now, unless switched off.

With version 5, it can be imported as a complete package, there appears to be no need to have it as individual files that need to be manipulated by the user.
See above. There is no need to manipulate individual files.

If this can be done, the wiki steps can be simplified, and the user can complete the process quicker and easier.
Not true. When you import a backup with media, which is something that I really hate, Gramps will create a new media folder in a place where I don't want it, and for which I know that it confuses many. We had an elderly user in the user forum who really didn't get it, not even when a fellow American tried to explain in to her. I'm a Dutchman, so there was a language barrier, but even without that, it didn't work.

In earlier versions this may have been required, with version 5 there is no need to do it this way, they can be packaged into the one file and the user can import that package in a reduced number of steps.
Again, see above. Backups with media go back to version 3, and maybe even earlier.

I don't see a fundamental rethink of organization occurring in what I propose, far from it.
It is a simplification that would appear to fit in with improvements, changes in gramps.  I see improvements in gramps that allow the important of that example directory as one simple file - or 2 if you retain both databases. That last is not a decision I make, but a question that I ask.
You're wrong. It's not a simplification, because it creates a media folder that you really don't need to access the media. Gramps can find the media once the media path is corrected, which is a bug in the Windows version. I don't know about the Linux version though, because I use Gramps 3.4.9.

Do you see that the change I'm proposing as an improvement in line with the changes that have already occurred in gramps.
No. There were no changes. Imports with media create folders that confuse some of our users, and they create extra points of failure which we really don't want for testing. They're a nuisance.

That said, I do think that the wiki page can be improved, and we need to test its accuracy against all known platforms.


Cheers,


Enno


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Re: Discussion about gramps/example.gramp

GRAMPS - Dev mailing list
In reply to this post by enno
Enno wrote:
"While that is true, this can also be achieved by having a separate download that works for all platforms, one that Linux & Windows users will find in the download folder, where it is way more visible, and where it can be thrown away."

Agreed, a source for this file that would be OS independent is desirable. The "Import Family Tree" destinations include an "Other Locations" expansion that adds a "Connect to Server".  I was hoping to be about to put in the URL for the example.gramps file and pull it across the net.  But that's evidently not what that feature does.  (Searching the Wiki doesn't pop an obvious candidate for explaining that what the "Connect to server" feature does either.)

for a example.gramps URL, see:

If the "Other Locations" can pull from a URL, maybe the Base Path for relative Media Objects preference could accept a URL and eliminate that awkwardness too.

-Brian


On Saturday, October 13, 2018, 1:25:09 PM CDT, Enno Borgsteede <[hidden email]> wrote:


Op 13-10-18 om 17:35 schreef [hidden email]:
After decades of professional bug testing and managing support centers, I have to disagree with not including the example.gramps sample file with the Mac version. (Even though I'm not using the Mac version and users haven't complained.)
I'm not very familiar with current Macs, but knowing the average user of what I see as a closed system, I doubt that he or she will find our test data. Same for Windows users, who have to look inside the Program Files folder.

The example.gramps file is a baseline reference for writing tutorials and for users to try out the features & techniques.

In bug testing, the value isn't limited to simplifying and isolating the reproduction steps for new bug reports.  It can also be used to prove when a 'bug' doesn't occur in all trees.  So it allows us to more gently re-focus an insistent (and occasionally irate) user towards fixing their tree corruption rather than foisting the blame on Gramps.

Lastly, you may be too experienced to relate to the fears of a newbie.  But having an example to explore as you're getting started can relieve a LOT of anxiety. It also allows a User to assess Gramps Reports, Graphs and Tools without investing all the effort of building a family grouping. (Although I wish the Home person, Edwin Michael Smith, had a bit more mutiple-marriage & descendant depth to show-off some more of the graph features.)

Having examples with advanced features (like non-European character sets, pictures, repositories, et cetera) encourages users to experiment with features they might otherwise avoid. Certainly, I am loathe to experiment with a new feature in my primary Tree.  A Throw-Away tree allows me to experiment and make intentional mistakes where they don't matter. It allows me to develop healthy Bonsai skills before mangling the branches of my Tree.
While that is true, this can also be achieved by having a separate download that works for all platforms, one that Linux & Windows users will find in the download folder, where it is way more visible, and where it can be thrown away.

Regards,


Enno



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Re: Discussion about gramps/example.gramp

Nick Hall
In reply to this post by GRAMPS - Dev mailing list
On 13/10/2018 23:17, Emyoulation--- via Gramps-devel wrote:
> I did a bit of tweaking to the wiki document.  Please look it over and
> critique.
>
Looks good!  Thanks for taking time to improve the documentation.  Users
can probably explain things better for other users.

{GRAMPS_RESOURCES} is a variable that points to the folder where the
Gramps resource files are stored.  The example database does specify
{GRAMPS_RESOURCES}/example/gramps as the media path, but unfortunately
this will probably be incorrect.

For example, in Debian, the resource path will be set to
/usr/share/gramps, but the examples will be stored in /usr/share/doc/gramps.

Regards,


Nick.




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