Re: Form addon for Birth record

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Re: Form addon for Birth record

Michael Stockhausen
Forms create attributes for the EVENT.
If e.g. I share a birth (or birth record) event with the father, Godparents,
witnesses and perhaps mother,  I can quite easily see the information the
record provides for these persons.
E.g. for the father: In the person overview I just need to click on the
birth (record) event for the child (role e.g. father) and then on the
attributes in the top part for the personal information or in the bottom
part for the common info.

If I do not share the birth (record) event with the father, I will see the
child only in the family view - that is ok, but:
If I then click on the child, I get the source citation (again fine). I then
need to click on the citation, then on references and further on the child
(person) and then its birth (record) event and finally the attributes to see
the information. I find this quite complicated.

This is why I tend to share the birth record event with the other involved
persons (the major ones).

Is it possible - via a form - to create the attributes also for the
citation?

Michael



-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
From: Michael Stockhausen
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2016 12:22 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Form addon for Birth record

I am experimenting with a self-defined form for Polish birth certificates.
The Church was in charge of the civil registration; civil registration and
baptism took place on the same day and both were registered in the same
document.

The form creates a "Birth" event for the child, the father, mother,
witnesses and Godparents with their respective roles. (I can selectively
leave the section for one or more witnesses / Godparents blank and just
provide the names as regular attributes, if these are "unimportant" people
for me. I do not necessarily have to create them as individuals if I don't
want to.)

I am not sure if I like the result, though.

In the person overview I see the event plus the birth date and the place of
birth. This is fine for the child and its parents.
But for the witnesses and the Godparents it doesn't make sense, as they
probably did not witness the birth as such.

Taking the place and date of the registration obviously doens't make sense
either, if I have an event called "Birth".

I have therefore thought about using the form to create an event "Birth
record and baptism", with the date and place (Church) of this event, and in
addition manually creating a simple birth event for the child and its
parents without any further details (except place and date of birth). I
could use the same source citation for both.

This is extra work, certainly. But it seems more logical.
In addition, it makes it quite easy to find out which birth records I
already have.

Any comments?

Michael


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Re: Form addon for Birth record

Michael Stockhausen
Or asked differently:

Is there any disadvantage of putting information from a birth record into
the notes to the citation rather than in the attributes of the event?
Or in both places?

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
From: Michael Stockhausen
Sent: Thursday, January 5, 2017 10:58 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Form addon for Birth record

Forms create attributes for the EVENT.
If e.g. I share a birth (or birth record) event with the father, Godparents,
witnesses and perhaps mother,  I can quite easily see the information the
record provides for these persons.
E.g. for the father: In the person overview I just need to click on the
birth (record) event for the child (role e.g. father) and then on the
attributes in the top part for the personal information or in the bottom
part for the common info.

If I do not share the birth (record) event with the father, I will see the
child only in the family view - that is ok, but:
If I then click on the child, I get the source citation (again fine). I then
need to click on the citation, then on references and further on the child
(person) and then its birth (record) event and finally the attributes to see
the information. I find this quite complicated.

This is why I tend to share the birth record event with the other involved
persons (the major ones).

Is it possible - via a form - to create the attributes also for the
citation?

Michael



-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
From: Michael Stockhausen
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2016 12:22 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Form addon for Birth record

I am experimenting with a self-defined form for Polish birth certificates.
The Church was in charge of the civil registration; civil registration and
baptism took place on the same day and both were registered in the same
document.

The form creates a "Birth" event for the child, the father, mother,
witnesses and Godparents with their respective roles. (I can selectively
leave the section for one or more witnesses / Godparents blank and just
provide the names as regular attributes, if these are "unimportant" people
for me. I do not necessarily have to create them as individuals if I don't
want to.)

I am not sure if I like the result, though.

In the person overview I see the event plus the birth date and the place of
birth. This is fine for the child and its parents.
But for the witnesses and the Godparents it doesn't make sense, as they
probably did not witness the birth as such.

Taking the place and date of the registration obviously doens't make sense
either, if I have an event called "Birth".

I have therefore thought about using the form to create an event "Birth
record and baptism", with the date and place (Church) of this event, and in
addition manually creating a simple birth event for the child and its
parents without any further details (except place and date of birth). I
could use the same source citation for both.

This is extra work, certainly. But it seems more logical.
In addition, it makes it quite easy to find out which birth records I
already have.

Any comments?

Michael


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death record

Michael Stockhausen
How would you treat such a case?

You have a death record from 1840.
It tells you that the deceased person was 60 years old.
==> Create a birth event for 1780?

2. You then find two possible birth records (one in 1782 and one in 1778).
Without further information you do not know which one is the right one.
==>
a) Create two additional birth events (Birth Alt 1 and Birth Alt 2) and
connect the respective citation. When you later have more certainty, change
the correct one to "Birth", and the other one? Delete or change to
"Disproven birth" (this is how legacy suggests to do it)?
or
b) Create two new persons, and when you have more certainty, merge the
deceased person and the correct birth?

Michael


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Re: death record

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by Michael Stockhausen
Or set the Birth date as "Between 1780 and 1778", having all three
citations, which you then narrow down when more evidence arrives.

Creating a "Disproved birth" event type does seem like a good idea.  "Wrong"
citations would get moved there.

On 01/07/2017 12:51 PM, Michael Stockhausen wrote:

> How would you treat such a case?
>
> You have a death record from 1840.
> It tells you that the deceased person was 60 years old.
> ==> Create a birth event for 1780?
>
> 2. You then find two possible birth records (one in 1782 and one in 1778).
> Without further information you do not know which one is the right one.
> ==>
> a) Create two additional birth events (Birth Alt 1 and Birth Alt 2) and
> connect the respective citation. When you later have more certainty, change
> the correct one to "Birth", and the other one? Delete or change to
> "Disproven birth" (this is how legacy suggests to do it)?
> or
> b) Create two new persons, and when you have more certainty, merge the
> deceased person and the correct birth?

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Re: death record

Michael Stockhausen
Another one:

We have had the discussion before if it makes sense to share a birth or
death event - probably not (except maybe with the mother in case of a
birth).
Sharing a birth record / baptism or death record / burial event may be more
meaningful, e.g. with witnesses, informants, Godparents etc.

But what about this:

A death record mentions that the decedent is survived by his 2 sons (Martin
and James). No further information is provided.
As they are not the informants/witnesses, it is quite likely that they were
not present (or at least we do not know).

I would like to create an event for them to keep track that they were
mentioned and to attach the citation to. But as they did not participate in
the recording of their father's death, nor are their places of residence,
their occupations or age mentioned, I do not really have a basis.
The only thing I know is that they were still alive, so I could create a
death event for them "after year" - maybe a bit strange for young men.

I would in any case add them as children to the decedent's family and add
the citation (the father's death record) to the child reference editor.
But if this is the only place I have this link, the citation does not appear
in any report, as far as I can tell.

Any ideas?

Thanks
Michael



 


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Re: death record

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
On 01/07/2017 02:03 PM, Michael Stockhausen wrote:

> Another one:
>
> We have had the discussion before if it makes sense to share a birth or
> death event - probably not (except maybe with the mother in case of a birth).
> Sharing a birth record / baptism or death record / burial event may be
> more meaningful, e.g. with witnesses, informants, Godparents etc.
>
> But what about this:
>
> A death record mentions that the decedent is survived by his 2 sons
> (Martin and James). No further information is provided.
> As they are not the informants/witnesses, it is quite likely that they
> were not present (or at least we do not know).
>
> I would like to create an event for them to keep track that they were
> mentioned and to attach the citation to. But as they did not participate
> in the recording of their father's death, nor are their places of
> residence, their occupations or age mentioned, I do not really have a basis.
> The only thing I know is that they were still alive, so I could create a
> death event for them "after year" - maybe a bit strange for young men.

I'd create a Residence record with Date but no Place.  You could also create
a custom "Known Alive" event type.

> I would in any case add them as children to the decedent's family and add
> the citation (the father's death record) to the child reference editor.
> But if this is the only place I have this link, the citation does not
> appear in any report, as far as I can tell.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Thanks
> Michael
>


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Re: death record

Michael Stockhausen
Thanks, Ron, for your feedback,
I was considering sharing the death record event with anyone mentioned in
the record. The roles would be informant, witness, widow, child, father,
mother.
In the attributes I would state if he/she was present or not.
I could set the shared part of the event to private and exclude this from
reports selectively, so that in the end I would only see it on my screen for
my research.
I think it would be helpful.

Is that strange? Am I repeating too much?
Michael

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
From: Ron Johnson
Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 9:13 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] death record

On 01/07/2017 02:03 PM, Michael Stockhausen wrote:

> Another one:
>
> We have had the discussion before if it makes sense to share a birth or
> death event - probably not (except maybe with the mother in case of a
> birth).
> Sharing a birth record / baptism or death record / burial event may be
> more meaningful, e.g. with witnesses, informants, Godparents etc.
>
> But what about this:
>
> A death record mentions that the decedent is survived by his 2 sons
> (Martin and James). No further information is provided.
> As they are not the informants/witnesses, it is quite likely that they
> were not present (or at least we do not know).
>
> I would like to create an event for them to keep track that they were
> mentioned and to attach the citation to. But as they did not participate
> in the recording of their father's death, nor are their places of
> residence, their occupations or age mentioned, I do not really have a
> basis.
> The only thing I know is that they were still alive, so I could create a
> death event for them "after year" - maybe a bit strange for young men.

I'd create a Residence record with Date but no Place.  You could also create
a custom "Known Alive" event type.

> I would in any case add them as children to the decedent's family and add
> the citation (the father's death record) to the child reference editor.
> But if this is the only place I have this link, the citation does not
> appear in any report, as far as I can tell.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Thanks
> Michael
>


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NdK
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Re: death record

NdK
In reply to this post by Michael Stockhausen
Il 07/01/2017 21:03, Michael Stockhausen ha scritto:

> The only thing I know is that they were still alive, so I could create a
> death event for them "after year" - maybe a bit strange for young men.
I usually do that. It gives the information that they were still alive
at that date (not always a given fact...) and that could be useful when
further researching: at least you know you don't have to look at death
records before that date...

BYtE,
 Diego

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Re: death record

Michael Stockhausen
Is it possible in Gramps to get a Chronology report incl. a person, his/her
spouse and children?
like in Legacy:
http://news.legacyfamilytree.com/.a/6a00d8341d219b53ef0192ac05e7dc970d-pi 


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Re: death record

Agnes Charrel-Berthillier
On 1/7/17 3:16 PM, Michael Stockhausen wrote:
> Is it possible in Gramps to get a Chronology report incl. a person, his/her
> spouse and children?
> like in Legacy:
> http://news.legacyfamilytree.com/.a/6a00d8341d219b53ef0192ac05e7dc970d-pi


There is a Quick View report that does something close, but I haven't
found the resulting report very usable outside of Gramps: the output can
be saved to the clipboard but only as a series of comma separated values
and since the text of several field, starting with dates and places,
contain commas the resulting data gets mangled when opened in a third
party reader like Excel.

It does work fine within Gramps, providing quick access to events and
related people.


Agnes


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Re: death record

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
On 01/07/2017 02:31 PM, Michael Stockhausen wrote:
Thanks, Ron, for your feedback,
I was considering sharing the death record event with anyone mentioned in the record. The roles would be informant, witness, widow, child, father, mother.
In the attributes I would state if he/she was present or not.
I could set the shared part of the event to private and exclude this from reports selectively, so that in the end I would only see it on my screen for my research.

Problem is that the Private flag is a really large and blunt instrument who's true purpose is to hide truly private details.

I think it would be helpful.

You could try it and run some reports to see how it looks.  Maybe it's helpful and maybe it's confusing.

Is that strange? Am I repeating too much?

Well, that is what roles are for....

Michael

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- From: Ron Johnson
Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 9:13 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] death record

On 01/07/2017 02:03 PM, Michael Stockhausen wrote:
Another one:

We have had the discussion before if it makes sense to share a birth or
death event - probably not (except maybe with the mother in case of a birth).
Sharing a birth record / baptism or death record / burial event may be
more meaningful, e.g. with witnesses, informants, Godparents etc.

But what about this:

A death record mentions that the decedent is survived by his 2 sons
(Martin and James). No further information is provided.
As they are not the informants/witnesses, it is quite likely that they
were not present (or at least we do not know).

I would like to create an event for them to keep track that they were
mentioned and to attach the citation to. But as they did not participate
in the recording of their father's death, nor are their places of
residence, their occupations or age mentioned, I do not really have a basis.
The only thing I know is that they were still alive, so I could create a
death event for them "after year" - maybe a bit strange for young men.

I'd create a Residence record with Date but no Place.  You could also create
a custom "Known Alive" event type.

I would in any case add them as children to the decedent's family and add
the citation (the father's death record) to the child reference editor.
But if this is the only place I have this link, the citation does not
appear in any report, as far as I can tell.

Any ideas?

Thanks
Michael





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Re: death record

Michael Stockhausen
In reply to this post by Agnes Charrel-Berthillier
Thanks, Agnes,
I knew the Quick view (I guess you mean right click on the person, quick
view, timeline?), but wasn't aware that I could copy the data to xls.
I also didn't know that I could right-click on an event and see the primary
person.

You are right, the result in xls is not very useful or needs prep/follow-up
work.
It would be better to have semicolons ";" as separators instead of commas.

It would also be nice to have a real report like this...
Michael

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
From: Agnes Charrel-Berthillier
Sent: Sunday, January 8, 2017 12:38 AM
To: Gramps
Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] death record

On 1/7/17 3:16 PM, Michael Stockhausen wrote:
> Is it possible in Gramps to get a Chronology report incl. a person,
> his/her
> spouse and children?
> like in Legacy:
> http://news.legacyfamilytree.com/.a/6a00d8341d219b53ef0192ac05e7dc970d-pi


There is a Quick View report that does something close, but I haven't
found the resulting report very usable outside of Gramps: the output can
be saved to the clipboard but only as a series of comma separated values
and since the text of several field, starting with dates and places,
contain commas the resulting data gets mangled when opened in a third
party reader like Excel.

It does work fine within Gramps, providing quick access to events and
related people.


Agnes


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Re: death record

Michael Stockhausen
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
 
 
>>I could set the shared part of the event to private and exclude this from reports selectively, so that in the end I would only see it on my screen for my research.

>Problem is that the Private flag is a really large and blunt instrument who's true purpose is to hide truly private details.
>You could try it and run some reports to see how it looks.  Maybe it's helpful and maybe it's confusing.
 
It seems that the only report that is really affected is the complete person report.
Here I also have the possiibility to (selectively) exclude the self-defined stuff, if I do not want to have it in the report.
 

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Re: death record

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
On 01/08/2017 05:01 AM, Michael Stockhausen wrote:
>>I could set the shared part of the event to private and exclude this from reports selectively, so that in the end I would only see it on my screen for my research.

>Problem is that the Private flag is a really large and blunt instrument who's true purpose is to hide truly private details.
>You could try it and run some reports to see how it looks.  Maybe it's helpful and maybe it's confusing.
 
It seems that the only report that is really affected is the complete person report.
Here I also have the possiibility to (selectively) exclude the self-defined stuff, if I do not want to have it in the report.

Eh?  Many reports ask to exclude/include Private records, and also it's important for export.

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Re: death record

Michael Stockhausen
I meant that the complete person report is probably the only one (plus the person everything report) that lists events in which the individual does not have the primary role.
 
 
 
Sent: Sunday, January 8, 2017 3:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] death record
 
On 01/08/2017 05:01 AM, Michael Stockhausen wrote:
>>I could set the shared part of the event to private and exclude this from reports selectively, so that in the end I would only see it on my screen for my research.

>Problem is that the Private flag is a really large and blunt instrument who's true purpose is to hide truly private details.
>You could try it and run some reports to see how it looks.  Maybe it's helpful and maybe it's confusing.
 
It seems that the only report that is really affected is the complete person report.
Here I also have the possiibility to (selectively) exclude the self-defined stuff, if I do not want to have it in the report.

Eh?  Many reports ask to exclude/include Private records, and also it's important for export.

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Re: death record

paul womack
In reply to this post by Ron Johnson
Ron Johnson wrote:
> Or set the Birth date as "Between 1780 and 1778", having all three
> citations, which you then narrow down when more evidence arrives.

Agreed - you might (well) then move the "wrong" citation
to its proper person.

Having two birth events sounds (to me) very very wrong!

  BugBear


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Re: death record

paul womack
In reply to this post by Michael Stockhausen
Michael Stockhausen wrote:
> Thanks, Ron, for your feedback,
> I was considering sharing the death record event with anyone mentioned in
> the record. The roles would be informant, witness, widow, child, father,
> mother.

I use roles quite a lot; I feel they represent the reality
very well.

I do feel that several of Gramps Edit Dialogs and reports
don't handle roles as nicely as they could.

  BugBear


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Re: death record

paul womack
In reply to this post by Michael Stockhausen
Michael Stockhausen wrote:
> Is it possible in Gramps to get a Chronology report incl. a person, his/her
> spouse and children?
> like in Legacy:
> http://news.legacyfamilytree.com/.a/6a00d8341d219b53ef0192ac05e7dc970d-pi

The Ancestry "Lifestory" pages in their trees are similar;
in truth it's not much more than showing the more important
events (BMDs, basically) for close relatives. Technically
not difficult, but it can provide a useful view on the data.

I suspect (for Ancestry) it also make individual's
reports look richer than they really are!


  BugBear

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Re: death record

Michael Stockhausen
In reply to this post by paul womack
I guess I simplified a bit too much. My intention is not to create two birth
events.

I would differentiate between a) diverging information for the same person
and b) different alternatives (different persons).

For example:
a) I have four records indicating a person's age (marriage, birth of two
children, death). By calculating I get 1825, 1826 and 2x1828. It is quite
evident that all records refer to the same person (same name, same spouse,
etc).
I create ONE birth event, attach all 4 records and enter the date
"calculated: between 1825 and 1828".

b) I then find two potential birth records for this person, but I am not
sure which one is correct. I create TWO separate birth record events, one
with "birth record Alternative1" and the other with "birth record
Alternative2", attaching the respective citation and leaving the birth event
untouched. If later I am confident enough to say Alt1 is the correct one, I
call this event "birth record" and update the birth event accordingly.

For the incorrect record, it depends how I am able to "prove" which one is
the right entry.
- if I can "prove" that Alt1 is the matching birth record, I can delete Alt2
or move it to the other individual (if this person is interesting for me)
- if it is more "disproving" Alt2 to show that Alt1 must be the correct one,
I will keep this as a "disproved birth record" and outline my argumentation
in the notes

Comments are welcome

Michael





-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
From: paul womack
Sent: Monday, January 9, 2017 10:11 AM
To: Ron Johnson ; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] death record

Ron Johnson wrote:
> Or set the Birth date as "Between 1780 and 1778", having all three
> citations, which you then narrow down when more evidence arrives.

Agreed - you might (well) then move the "wrong" citation
to its proper person.

Having two birth events sounds (to me) very very wrong!

  BugBear



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Re: death record

Ron Johnson
In reply to this post by Michael Stockhausen
On 01/09/2017 03:18 AM, paul womack wrote:
> The Ancestry "Lifestory" pages in their trees are similar;
> in truth it's not much more than showing the more important
> events (BMDs, basically) for close relatives. Technically
> not difficult, but it can provide a useful view on the data.
>
> I suspect (for Ancestry) it also make individual's
> reports look richer than they really are!

+1

--
World Peace Through Nuclear Pacification


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