Reduce importance of the Event description

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Reduce importance of the Event description

Sebastian Schubert
Hi,

now after several weeks with gramps, I find the Event description field
strange and I would like to reduce my usage of it.

The main problem is that it mainly includes redundant information: most
of my events are birth, death and similar events where the description
field would just be "Birth/Death/... of XYZ". Furthermore, when using
the html export to present my findings to the family, this kind of
description and redundancy is confusing. In addition, in the case of
non-redundant information for the occupation, religion, etc kind of
events, this verbosity of the event description hides the particular
piece of information one is actually interested in.

Ok, why not leaving the Event description field empty except when
including additional information (like the kind of occupation)? In the
main event viewer, the columns can be re-arranged and the Main
participants can be added, thus one can easily interpret the event. In
the person viewer, however, the Main participants column is missing,
also I cannot re-order the columns.

Thus, I would propose a feature request to add such a column, possibly a
somehow joined column with the Role of the person (again, in most cases,
the role would be primary and therefore the Main participant would be
the person you view at). In addition, a small symbol like a "*" or
similar at the Type of the event could indicate that the current person
is not of the Main participants so one could easily see that the
Role/Main participants column is important for this particular event.

What do you think? Am I missing something? Any other advice?

Cheers,
Sebastian

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Re: Reduce importance of the Event description

DS Blank
On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 12:41 PM, Sebastian Schubert
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> now after several weeks with gramps, I find the Event description field
> strange and I would like to reduce my usage of it.

I've been using Gramps for a long time, and I agree!

> The main problem is that it mainly includes redundant information: most
> of my events are birth, death and similar events where the description
> field would just be "Birth/Death/... of XYZ". Furthermore, when using
> the html export to present my findings to the family, this kind of
> description and redundancy is confusing. In addition, in the case of
> non-redundant information for the occupation, religion, etc kind of
> events, this verbosity of the event description hides the particular
> piece of information one is actually interested in.
>
> Ok, why not leaving the Event description field empty except when
> including additional information (like the kind of occupation)? In the
> main event viewer, the columns can be re-arranged and the Main
> participants can be added, thus one can easily interpret the event. In
> the person viewer, however, the Main participants column is missing,
> also I cannot re-order the columns.

"Description" might not even be the right name for the field. Or, is
this field really even necessary?

The description "Birth of XYZ" can be nice in places, but could also
be auto-generated where needed.

> Thus, I would propose a feature request to add such a column, possibly a
> somehow joined column with the Role of the person (again, in most cases,
> the role would be primary and therefore the Main participant would be
> the person you view at). In addition, a small symbol like a "*" or
> similar at the Type of the event could indicate that the current person
> is not of the Main participants so one could easily see that the
> Role/Main participants column is important for this particular event.

The indication of "primary participant" is a good one, too. (Probably
a separate/independent request?)

> What do you think? Am I missing something? Any other advice?

To make these happen, please make a ticket in the tracker, and be very
specific about where these show up in reports and screens, and what
would be better.

Thanks!

-Doug

> Cheers,
> Sebastian
>
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Re: Reduce importance of the Event description

J. Allen Crider-2
In reply to this post by Sebastian Schubert
On 12/26/2013 11:41 AM, Sebastian Schubert wrote:
> Hi,
>
> now after several weeks with gramps, I find the Event description field
> strange and I would like to reduce my usage of it.
>

I've been using GRAMPS for several years, and my usage of the Event
description has changed over the years as well as being different from
the data I imported when I started using GRAMPS.  At some point I'd like
to get more consistency and possibly reduce my usage.

> The main problem is that it mainly includes redundant information: most
> of my events are birth, death and similar events where the description
> field would just be "Birth/Death/... of XYZ". Furthermore, when using
> the html export to present my findings to the family, this kind of
> description and redundancy is confusing. In addition, in the case of
> non-redundant information for the occupation, religion, etc kind of
> events, this verbosity of the event description hides the particular
> piece of information one is actually interested in.
>

For a long time, I left the descriptions blank rather than including
redundant information, but I've been changing primarily because of the
narrated web site.  I now have over 11000 media objects in my database,
and many of them are associated with events.  If media objects are
included in the web site and event pages are generated, the list of
references on media pages will be the event description if it exists or
only the event type if there is no description.  If the event pages are
not generated, then the list of references on the media pages will
include the people associated with the event.  I would like to see the
reference section be the same when event pages are generated as when
they are not, but I don't understand the code involved well enough to
determine how difficult that might be.  Then I could reduce my usage of
the event description, especially the cases where I'm using it for
redundant information.

> Ok, why not leaving the Event description field empty except when
> including additional information (like the kind of occupation)? In the
> main event viewer, the columns can be re-arranged and the Main
> participants can be added, thus one can easily interpret the event. In
> the person viewer, however, the Main participants column is missing,
> also I cannot re-order the columns.
>
> Thus, I would propose a feature request to add such a column, possibly a
> somehow joined column with the Role of the person (again, in most cases,
> the role would be primary and therefore the Main participant would be
> the person you view at). In addition, a small symbol like a "*" or
> similar at the Type of the event could indicate that the current person
> is not of the Main participants so one could easily see that the
> Role/Main participants column is important for this particular event.
>
> What do you think? Am I missing something? Any other advice?
>
> Cheers,
> Sebastian
>
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Re: Reduce importance of the Event description

Martin Steer-2
In reply to this post by Sebastian Schubert
I used Gramps for some years, and was likewise uncomfortable with the
description field, whether for redundant or non-redundant information.
It seems to me that an occupation, for example, is better dealt with as
a role attribute than as an event with attached description.

One of the other posters mentioned tuning their data to fit the web
report, which I would caution against. Better to tune the report to
adequately represent the data.

M.



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Re: Reduce importance of the Event description

Philip Weiss
I fill in the description so that I can search for events in the events view and pick out ones I need. The only way I've found to make dragging to the clipboard work for events is from that tab. Dragging from events on a person or family view seems to drop an "event ref" which doesn't work as well. I still haven't figured out how to make filtering events on participants work well.

But those descriptions work awkwardly in the narrative web report.  At some point, I'll probably hack my own version of that report that omits the description and displays other information about an event.

I also found the generated descriptions are kind of awkward  for a lot of event types.  They're fine for BMD events, burials, etc.  But don't work as well for census events, residence events, occupation events (unlike Martin, I prefer those as events, as occupation changes over time), and others, for various reasons.  Census ones because there are multiple primary participants and many individuals have multiple census events.  Any event where there are multiple primary participants or multiple events of the same kind seem to not work so well.

I'm not sure what the best solution is.  Just some of the issues I've run into.

Phil.


On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 10:27 PM, Martin Steer <[hidden email]> wrote:
I used Gramps for some years, and was likewise uncomfortable with the
description field, whether for redundant or non-redundant information.
It seems to me that an occupation, for example, is better dealt with as
a role attribute than as an event with attached description.

One of the other posters mentioned tuning their data to fit the web
report, which I would caution against. Better to tune the report to
adequately represent the data.

M.



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Re: Reduce importance of the Event description

jerome
In reply to this post by Sebastian Schubert

Hi,


On a secondary database, I am using event description with occupation
events.
I put the name of the client and the object.

e.g.
Description: Construction d'un atelier et entrepôt für Herrn
Bildhauer Édouard Kron (sculpteur)
Date: 13/4/1896
place: rue du Neufeld (entre Völker et Erdmann)

Right now, I have around 1.000 events for 3 individuals on 737
locations (10 sources and 738 citations)!

Neither gedcom model nor most others genealogical applications provide
such a feature, because these models often force to use event as child
object of an individual.

In this case, to reduce importance of this field means to loose one
feature.

Going further, we can use Gramps as a genealogical application but also
as a events, places, sources, citations, notes, etc ... manager!

See http://gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Events_manager

Event description is also important when sharing events and by using
filter rules.

Free form field are important on primary objects (title on source,
maybe page/volume on citation, title on place, etc ...). To move event
description away means to set a place and to only add a date !!! If so,
why not moving event to place and to support a new set of field
'role/type/date' attributes for this 'place'? Event description moves
to new note, which is also a free textual field...

Flexibility versus embedded model?

I guess we can transpose these questions on source/citation fields too
..

http://gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=GEPS_024:_Natural_transcription_of_Records
http://gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=GEPS_018:_Evidence_style_sources


Note, I also wonder how to store gedcom values like for 'religion'
event type?
I have 4 different religions into my main family tree.
They cannot be an attribute of a place or of an event.
Maybe this should be linked with individual only?

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/soc.genealogy.computing/VtHm6UcoH6c

Still unclear for me!





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Re: Reduce importance of the Event description

Martin Steer-2
On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 09:33:51AM +0001, Jerome wrote:

>
>
>Note, I also wonder how to store gedcom values like for 'religion'
>event type?
>I have 4 different religions into my main family tree.
>They cannot be an attribute of a place or of an event.
>Maybe this should be linked with individual only?
>
>https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/soc.genealogy.computing/VtHm6UcoH6c
>
>Still unclear for me!

Thanks for the ideas, Jerome!

As for religion, it seems to me that it should belong to the role:

person
|
role <-- attribute ('religion: ...')
|
event




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Re: Reduce importance of the Event description

Sebastian Schubert
In reply to this post by jerome
Hi Jerome,

Am 27.12.2013 10:32, schrieb Jerome:

> On a secondary database, I am using event description with occupation
> events.
> I put the name of the client and the object.
>
> e.g.
> Description: Construction d'un atelier et entrepôt für Herrn Bildhauer
> Édouard Kron (sculpteur)
> Date: 13/4/1896
> place: rue du Neufeld (entre Völker et Erdmann)
>
> Right now, I have around 1.000 events for 3 individuals on 737 locations
> (10 sources and 738 citations)!
>
> Neither gedcom model nor most others genealogical applications provide
> such a feature, because these models often force to use event as child
> object of an individual.
>
> In this case, to reduce importance of this field means to loose one
> feature.

I don't want to have to Description field to be removed, just that one
is not forced to enter redundant information like "Birth of XYZ" to be
able to share the event.

I submitted the following feature request:

http://www.gramps-project.org/bugs/view.php?id=7342

Cheers
Sebastian

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Re: Reduce importance of the Event description

Jesse Meyer
In reply to this post by Martin Steer-2
On 12/27/2013 12:27 AM, Martin Steer wrote:
> I used Gramps for some years, and was likewise uncomfortable with the
> description field, whether for redundant or non-redundant information.
> It seems to me that an occupation, for example, is better dealt with as
> a role attribute than as an event with attached description.

How would that work when you're tracking changes in occupations over the
years,
which is very easy information to find for some periods and years.

Or do I have an unusual usage scenario where I actually record this
information,
and most don't?

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Re: Reduce importance of the Event description

NdK
Il 30/12/2013 03:19, dasunt ha scritto:

> Or do I have an unusual usage scenario where I actually record this
> information, and most don't?
Maybe "residence" events are more suited for tracking occupation?

BYtE,
 Diego.

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Re: Reduce importance of the Event description

Philip Weiss
I record both residence events and occupation events separately. (A person often doesn't work at the place they live.)  As well as religion events.  All of those can change over time.  Even appearance is an event in my database, as that changes or can be recorded differently over time.  One of the reasons that I really like Gramps is that I can attach time periods to names. I think the most common attribute I use is SSN (or other national ID number), as that rarely changes.  I'd be hard pressed to think of any other attributes that I've used even.  Very little is immutable over the course of a person's life.  Coming up with event descriptions for these things ain't easy, because there are lots and lots of similar events.

Phil.


On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 9:34 PM, NdK <[hidden email]> wrote:
Il 30/12/2013 03:19, dasunt ha scritto:

> Or do I have an unusual usage scenario where I actually record this
> information, and most don't?
Maybe "residence" events are more suited for tracking occupation?

BYtE,
 Diego.

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Re: Reduce importance of the Event description

jerome
In reply to this post by Sebastian Schubert

Hi Sebastian,

 > just that one is not forced to enter redundant information like
"Birth of XYZ" to be able to share the event.

If the problem is to enter redundant information, then let the
description field empty, and run 'Extract Event Descriptions from_Event
Data' tool (Family Tree modifications) when you need to fill any empty
description!

http://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Gramps_4.0_Wiki_Manual_-_Tools#Extract_Event_Descriptions_from_Event_Data

If you do not like current model for filling empty description, then we
can also try to improve it! :)

Currently the template is:
{event type} of {Surname(s)}, {Given name(s)}

 > I submitted the following feature request:
 >
 > http://www.gramps-project.org/bugs/view.php?id=7342

Thanks!


Cheers
Jérôme

Le dim. 29 déc. 2013 at 21:54,Sebastian Schubert
<[hidden email]> a écrit :

> Hi Jerome,
>
> Am 27.12.2013 10:32, schrieb Jerome:
>>  On a secondary database, I am using event description with
>> occupation
>>  events.
>>  I put the name of the client and the object.
>>  
>>  e.g.
>>  Description: Construction d'un atelier et entrepôt für Herrn
>> Bildhauer
>>  Édouard Kron (sculpteur)
>>  Date: 13/4/1896
>>  place: rue du Neufeld (entre Völker et Erdmann)
>>  
>>  Right now, I have around 1.000 events for 3 individuals on 737
>> locations
>>  (10 sources and 738 citations)!
>>  
>>  Neither gedcom model nor most others genealogical applications
>> provide
>>  such a feature, because these models often force to use event as
>> child
>>  object of an individual.
>>  
>>  In this case, to reduce importance of this field means to loose one
>>  feature.
>>
> I don't want to have to Description field to be removed, just that one
> is not forced to enter redundant information like "Birth of XYZ" to be
> able to share the event.
>
> I submitted the following feature request:
>
> http://www.gramps-project.org/bugs/view.php?id=7342
>
> Cheers
> Sebastian
>


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Re: Reduce importance of the Event description

Sebastian Schubert
Hi Jérôme,

Am 30.12.2013 09:55, schrieb Jerome:

>> just that one is not forced to enter redundant information like "Birth
>> of XYZ" to be able to share the event.
>
> If the problem is to enter redundant information, then let the
> description field empty, and run 'Extract Event Descriptions from_Event
> Data' tool (Family Tree modifications) when you need to fill any empty
> description!
>
> http://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Gramps_4.0_Wiki_Manual_-_Tools#Extract_Event_Descriptions_from_Event_Data
>
>
> If you do not like current model for filling empty description, then we
> can also try to improve it! :)
>
> Currently the template is:
> {event type} of {Surname(s)}, {Given name(s)}

I don't like that there is a model for filling empty descriptions at all. ;)
Despite that I don't like reading redundant information all the time
(Person: XYZ, Event Type: Birth, now guess the Event description ;) ),
if for example the name of a person was updated, all event descriptions
would have to be updated manually.

I interpret the Event Description more like Event Details holding
information that does not fit in any predefined field. This is certainly
useful and necessary.

Thanks,
Sebastian

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Re: Reduce importance of the Event description

enno
Hallo Sebastian
> I don't like that there is a model for filling empty descriptions at all. ;)
> Despite that I don't like reading redundant information all the time
> (Person: XYZ, Event Type: Birth, now guess the Event description ;) ),
> if for example the name of a person was updated, all event descriptions
> would have to be updated manually.
Same here. Once the description is filled with redundant information,
there is no way to get rid of it, or have it updated with a new name or
anything. That's why I never use that automatic filling stuff, and why I
even would recommend a tool to get rid of automatic descriptions afterwards.
> I interpret the Event Description more like Event Details holding
> information that does not fit in any predefined field. This is certainly
> useful and necessary.
Right, and maybe there is a need for more specific fields, although one
might say that we do already have attributes for that. Problem with
those is that they probably won't make it to a GEDCOM export and
reports, while the description does go there.

regards,

Enno




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Re: Reduce importance of the Event description

Douglas Bainbridge
On 30/12/13 11:38, Enno Borgsteede wrote:

> Hallo Sebastian
>> I don't like that there is a model for filling empty descriptions at all. ;)
>> Despite that I don't like reading redundant information all the time
>> (Person: XYZ, Event Type: Birth, now guess the Event description ;) ),
>> if for example the name of a person was updated, all event descriptions
>> would have to be updated manually.
> Same here. Once the description is filled with redundant information,
> there is no way to get rid of it, or have it updated with a new name or
> anything. That's why I never use that automatic filling stuff, and why I
> even would recommend a tool to get rid of automatic descriptions afterwards.
>> I interpret the Event Description more like Event Details holding
>> information that does not fit in any predefined field. This is certainly
>> useful and necessary.
> Right, and maybe there is a need for more specific fields, although one
> might say that we do already have attributes for that. Problem with
> those is that they probably won't make it to a GEDCOM export and
> reports, while the description does go there.
>
> regards,
>
> Enno

I usually leave the Description field blank and use the
automatic filling - it saves me a lot of trouble and puts
the stuff in a standard form that is very easy to sort and scan.
On the occasions I want something different in the
Description field it's easy enough to delete the individual
default Description and type in something else.

Doug

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Re: Reduce importance of the Event description

enno
Doug,
> I usually leave the Description field blank and use the automatic
> filling - it saves me a lot of trouble and puts the stuff in a
> standard form that is very easy to sort and scan.
> On the occasions I want something different in the Description field
> it's easy enough to delete the individual default Description and type
> in something else.
Nice that it works for you, but I have two problems:

1. Automatic filling creates a description text adapted to my local
language, which is Dutch. That's nice for me, but it's also exported
when I want to upload to Ancestry, and share data with family abroad,
who partly don't understand Dutch at all. That's why I think automatic
descriptions are a waste.

2. Once the description is filled, it is not updated anymore. So, when I
correct the spelling of a name, the description will be incorrect,
unless I correct all event descriptions that may have this person's name
in them. Such manual correction feels like a silly task to me, that the
computer should do for me instead.

regards,

Enno


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Re: Reduce importance of the Event description

Douglas Bainbridge
On 30/12/13 16:01, Enno Borgsteede wrote:

> Doug,
>> I usually leave the Description field blank and use the
>> automatic filling - it saves me a lot of trouble and puts
>> the stuff in a standard form that is very easy to sort
>> and scan.
>> On the occasions I want something different in the
>> Description field it's easy enough to delete the
>> individual default Description and type in something else.
> Nice that it works for you, but I have two problems:
>
> 1. Automatic filling creates a description text adapted to
> my local language, which is Dutch. That's nice for me, but
> it's also exported when I want to upload to Ancestry, and
> share data with family abroad, who partly don't understand
> Dutch at all. That's why I think automatic descriptions
> are a waste.
>
> 2. Once the description is filled, it is not updated
> anymore. So, when I correct the spelling of a name, the
> description will be incorrect, unless I correct all event
> descriptions that may have this person's name in them.
> Such manual correction feels like a silly task to me, that
> the computer should do for me instead.
>
> regards,
>
> Enno

1. I don't have that problem but I can see it's a nuisance

2. I have that problem not infrequently, for example, when I
discover a wife's real maiden name, and I agree, it's a
pain. Then I delete all her related event descriptions and
run auto filling again, but it would be really handy to
(a) delete all related descriptions at once (and then re-run
auto fill) or better still
(b) automatically correct for a change of name

Doug

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NdK
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Re: Reduce importance of the Event description

NdK
Il 30/12/2013 19:40, Douglas Bainbridge ha scritto:

> 1. I don't have that problem but I can see it's a nuisance
> 2. I have that problem not infrequently, for example, when I
> discover a wife's real maiden name, and I agree, it's a
> pain. Then I delete all her related event descriptions and
> run auto filling again, but it would be really handy to
> (a) delete all related descriptions at once (and then re-run
> auto fill) or better still
> (b) automatically correct for a change of name
Export to XML, search & replace, import back?
Or use alternative names?

BYtE,
 Diego.

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Re: Reduce importance of the Event description

Douglas Bainbridge
On 31/12/13 05:37, NdK wrote:

> Il 30/12/2013 19:40, Douglas Bainbridge ha scritto:
>
>> 1. I don't have that problem but I can see it's a nuisance
>> 2. I have that problem not infrequently, for example, when I
>> discover a wife's real maiden name, and I agree, it's a
>> pain. Then I delete all her related event descriptions and
>> run auto filling again, but it would be really handy to
>> (a) delete all related descriptions at once (and then re-run
>> auto fill) or better still
>> (b) automatically correct for a change of name
> Export to XML, search & replace, import back?
Thanks, that's a good suggestion.
I'll definitely use it if I've accumulated a lot of
corrections that need doing.

Doug



> Or use alternative names?
>
> BYtE,
>   Diego.


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Re: Reduce importance of the Event description

Martin Steer-2
In reply to this post by Jesse Meyer
On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 08:19:22PM -0600, dasunt wrote:
>On 12/27/2013 12:27 AM, Martin Steer wrote:
>> I used Gramps for some years, and was likewise uncomfortable with the
>> description field, whether for redundant or non-redundant information.
>> It seems to me that an occupation, for example, is better dealt with as
>> a role attribute than as an event with attached description.
>
>How would that work when you're tracking changes in occupations over the
>years,
>which is very easy information to find for some periods and years.

That is precisely why events don't work. Do you really want, say, 12
occupation events for some father who is a 'farmer' at every baptism?
Alternatively, do you really want one occupation event for the farmer,
with 12 different sources hanging off it?

I would argue that the occupation belongs with the father at each
baptism, that is to say, as a role attribute for him. The attribute is
thus linked both to him and to the (baptism) event, from which it
inherits a date, place and source. The same argument holds for other
'events' such as residences.

Gramps allows you to do this, but probably doesn't display the attribute
info in as useful a way as it could.

M.



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