Reduce importance of the Event description

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Re: Reduce importance of the Event description

ACProctor
I agree Martin. At first sight, it sounds as though you might have read my
post 'Evidence and Where To Stick It'
(http://parallax-viewpoint.blogspot.com/2013/11/evidence-and-where-to-stick-it.html)
but that's probably wishful thinking as not many people did.

Put simply, those sources each support a very particular event, e.g. a
census, or a baptism. If you can glean evidence from the source about
occupations, residence addresses, etc., then that's good but the sources
should not be attached to "contrived events", or even events to which the
sources do not make a direct reference.

    Tony Proctor

----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Steer" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2014 11:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Gramps-users] Reduce importance of the Event description


> On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 08:19:22PM -0600, dasunt wrote:
>>On 12/27/2013 12:27 AM, Martin Steer wrote:
>>> I used Gramps for some years, and was likewise uncomfortable with the
>>> description field, whether for redundant or non-redundant information.
>>> It seems to me that an occupation, for example, is better dealt with as
>>> a role attribute than as an event with attached description.
>>
>>How would that work when you're tracking changes in occupations over the
>>years,
>>which is very easy information to find for some periods and years.
>
> That is precisely why events don't work. Do you really want, say, 12
> occupation events for some father who is a 'farmer' at every baptism?
> Alternatively, do you really want one occupation event for the farmer,
> with 12 different sources hanging off it?
>
> I would argue that the occupation belongs with the father at each
> baptism, that is to say, as a role attribute for him. The attribute is
> thus linked both to him and to the (baptism) event, from which it
> inherits a date, place and source. The same argument holds for other
> 'events' such as residences.
>
> Gramps allows you to do this, but probably doesn't display the attribute
> info in as useful a way as it could.
>
> M.
>
>
>
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Re: Reduce importance of the Event description

Martin Steer-2
On Fri, Jan 03, 2014 at 11:55:05AM -0000, Tony Proctor wrote:
>I agree Martin. At first sight, it sounds as though you might have
>read my post 'Evidence and Where To Stick It' (http://parallax-viewpoint.blogspot.com/2013/11/evidence-and-where-to-stick-it.html)
>but that's probably wishful thinking as not many people did.

I did read your post, and your comments to this list.

M.



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Re: Reduce importance of the Event description

Les-3
In reply to this post by Sebastian Schubert
Just putting my 2 pence in, for what it's worth. Some of what has been said, goes over my head, just do not understand it. [Silver surfer]

What the messages show is how many different ways there are to use Gramps.

That said, one thing I do not think has been mentioned, is if you upload a "Gramps" GEDCOM to some internet Family Trees, the notes for an event can be lost or detached from the event but the Event Description Field remains, making it a "Must Have Field".

Early on I tied the "Auto Fill", but personally found it cluttered up the tree with information that should be clear from the tree itself.

I also tried the "Attributes Tab" but just did not get on with it.

Here are some examples of details I use in the "Event Description Field"

Birth
Time/Weight/early-late birth, Home,Hospital etc
Marriage
By Banns/licence, place. [In the UK you can now marry anywhere ie in a Supermarket.]
Death
Age, At home/hospital or elsewhere.
[I have a death certificate that states the name of the cross roads the ambulance was going through when the man died]
Burial
Graveyard/ plot number

Occupation
I do use many "Events" I have people who have 10 or more different occupations in their lifetime, so using multiple events, means you can see at a glance how their life progressed or declined. Also if any years are not covered.
Also of course if I use only one event for all occupations, then the amount of notes, for each occupation, for some people, put into one note, would be very confusing.

Residence [I believe I use this in an odd way]
I do not use "Address"

So again I will use multiple events so I can see at a glance how their life progressed or declined. Also if any years are not covered.
Place will be ie Wandsworth, London, England, I can have hundreds of addresses for Wandsworth.
So the Event Description Field will contain the house number and street name.


So if like me you run a Narweb report just to check the information you have entered.
You get a clear indication of where and how the family were living, and any missing information.

Les




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Re: Reduce importance of the Event description

Nick Hall-6
In reply to this post by Martin Steer-2
On 03/01/14 11:42, Martin Steer wrote:

> On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 08:19:22PM -0600, dasunt wrote:
>> >On 12/27/2013 12:27 AM, Martin Steer wrote:
>>> >>I used Gramps for some years, and was likewise uncomfortable with the
>>> >>description field, whether for redundant or non-redundant information.
>>> >>It seems to me that an occupation, for example, is better dealt with as
>>> >>a role attribute than as an event with attached description.
>> >
>> >How would that work when you're tracking changes in occupations over the
>> >years,
>> >which is very easy information to find for some periods and years.
> That is precisely why events don't work. Do you really want, say, 12
> occupation events for some father who is a 'farmer' at every baptism?
> Alternatively, do you really want one occupation event for the farmer,
> with 12 different sources hanging off it?
>
> I would argue that the occupation belongs with the father at each
> baptism, that is to say, as a role attribute for him. The attribute is
> thus linked both to him and to the (baptism) event, from which it
> inherits a date, place and source. The same argument holds for other
> 'events' such as residences.

I use this approach with my census add-ons.  The occupation and other
census columns are stored as attributes in the event reference objects.

The occupation can be summarised in an attribute of a person.

Residence events can be useful because they record a place.  For
example, a death certificate records both the place of death and the
usual residence at the time of death.  In this case, I would create a
residence event in addition to the death event.


> Gramps allows you to do this, but probably doesn't display the attribute
> info in as useful a way as it could.

I display event reference attributes in an Overview gramplet, which
shows "Age", "Condition", "Occupation" and "Where Born" attributes.


Nick.


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Re: Reduce importance of the Event description

Nick Hall-6
In reply to this post by Sebastian Schubert
On 29/12/13 20:54, Sebastian Schubert wrote:
> I submitted the following feature request:
>
> http://www.gramps-project.org/bugs/view.php?id=7342

Thanks for creating this feature request.

I was the developer that added the participants column.  I also didn't
like duplicating data already in Gramps, for the reasons already
mentioned in this thread.  Perhaps we should even remove the "Extract
Event Description" tool from core Gramps?

The "Main Participants" are actually participants with a primary role in
the event.  We either show all of them or just the first followed by an
ellipsis.  There isn't actually a mechanism for storing a main
participant in an event such as a census where there are multiple
primary participants.

It is easy to re-arrange columns in editors and selectors.  It is also
easy to add an extra participants columns to the editor.  We have to be
careful because there may be some people still generating the contents
of the description column.  However, I am willing to create a patch and
get some feedback on it.


Nick.


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Re: Reduce importance of the Event description

James Sherring
On 30/12/13 11:38, Enno Borgsteede wrote:
> That's why I never use that automatic filling stuff, and why I
> even would recommend a tool to get rid of automatic descriptions afterwards.

Having littered my data with the Extract Event Descriptions tool long ago and having come to regret the needless redundancy, I would welcome a tool to remove those redundant descriptions. (While keeping those manual descriptions that don't use the template.)

Peace,
James

On Sat, Jan 4, 2014 at 8:33 AM, Nick Hall <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 29/12/13 20:54, Sebastian Schubert wrote:
> I submitted the following feature request:
>
> http://www.gramps-project.org/bugs/view.php?id=7342

Thanks for creating this feature request.

I was the developer that added the participants column.  I also didn't
like duplicating data already in Gramps, for the reasons already
mentioned in this thread.  Perhaps we should even remove the "Extract
Event Description" tool from core Gramps?

The "Main Participants" are actually participants with a primary role in
the event.  We either show all of them or just the first followed by an
ellipsis.  There isn't actually a mechanism for storing a main
participant in an event such as a census where there are multiple
primary participants.

It is easy to re-arrange columns in editors and selectors.  It is also
easy to add an extra participants columns to the editor.  We have to be
careful because there may be some people still generating the contents
of the description column.  However, I am willing to create a patch and
get some feedback on it.


Nick.


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Re: Reduce importance of the Event description

Martin Steer-2
In reply to this post by Nick Hall-6
On Fri, Jan 03, 2014 at 09:13:15PM +0000, Nick Hall wrote:
>
>>> >On 12/27/2013 12:27 AM, Martin Steer wrote:
>> I would argue that the occupation belongs with the father at each
>> baptism, that is to say, as a role attribute for him. The attribute is
>> thus linked both to him and to the (baptism) event, from which it
>> inherits a date, place and source. The same argument holds for other
>> 'events' such as residences.

>I use this approach with my census add-ons.  The occupation and other
>census columns are stored as attributes in the event reference objects.
>
>The occupation can be summarised in an attribute of a person.
>
>Residence events can be useful because they record a place.  For
>example, a death certificate records both the place of death and the
>usual residence at the time of death.  In this case, I would create a
>residence event in addition to the death event.
>

You don't have to do this, if you trust the attribute to record a place.
What do you do with died at Redfern, late of Waterloo, formerly of
Canowindra? Your events are looking for three good dates where you have
one (or two, including the date of registration).

>
>> Gramps allows you to do this, but probably doesn't display the attribute
>> info in as useful a way as it could.
>
>I display event reference attributes in an Overview gramplet, which
>shows "Age", "Condition", "Occupation" and "Where Born" attributes.

That does sound useful.

In experimenting with attributes (outside Gramps), I find one nice view
is to sort them by individual, date, event, attribute type, and value.
This gives you a micro view of a life, as opposed to the macro view
given by events alone.

M.



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Re: Reduce importance of the Event description

Sebastian Schubert
In reply to this post by Nick Hall-6
Am 03.01.2014 22:33, schrieb Nick Hall:
> On 29/12/13 20:54, Sebastian Schubert wrote:
>> I submitted the following feature request:
>>
>> http://www.gramps-project.org/bugs/view.php?id=7342

> It is easy to re-arrange columns in editors and selectors.  It is also
> easy to add an extra participants columns to the editor.  We have to be
> careful because there may be some people still generating the contents
> of the description column.  However, I am willing to create a patch and
> get some feedback on it.

Thank you. I will gladly try a patch and comment on it. I agree that
changes need to be carefully done, in particular because using some kind
of verbose description field is currently recommended:

http://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Gramps_4.0_Wiki_Manual_-_Categories#Events_Category

Thus, I would propose some customization possibilities so people could
choose their kind of workflow.

Cheers

Sebastian

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Re: Reduce importance of the Event description

enno
In reply to this post by James Sherring
Hi James,
> Having littered my data with the Extract Event Descriptions tool long
> ago and having come to regret the needless redundancy, I would welcome
> a tool to remove those redundant descriptions. (While keeping those
> manual descriptions that don't use the template.)
Right, I once wrote a special GEDCOM export for that special purpose,
but right now, I can't imagine building a special tool for that, even
though it may not be that difficult.

What I can imagine though is a feature that lots of other programs have,
and that's a replace tool that can take care of that. I can't find that
in the menu's right now, but I can imagine that filters are expanded for
that purpose. The generated event descriptions have a lay-out that can
be easily filtered, even without resorting to regular expressions, I
think, so all it would take is running a global replace with an empty
replacement text. One would have to repeat that for all even types that
standard texts were generated for, but that looks quite manageable to me.

There is a feature request on our bug tracking system

http://www.gramps-project.org/bugs/view.php?id=4757

so we just need votes for that. :-)

regards,

Enno


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Re: Reduce importance of the Event description

Nick Hall-6
In reply to this post by James Sherring
On 04/01/14 03:26, James Sherring wrote:
Having littered my data with the Extract Event Descriptions tool long ago and having come to regret the needless redundancy, I would welcome a tool to remove those redundant descriptions. (While keeping those manual descriptions that don't use the template.)

I have created a Remove Description tool for Gramps v3.4, and put it in the third-party add-ons repository.   This will remove descriptions that fit the template and leave the others.

Nick.


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Re: Reduce importance of the Event description

Nick Hall-6
In reply to this post by Martin Steer-2
On 04/01/14 06:47, Martin Steer wrote:

>> Residence events can be useful because they record a place.  For
>> >example, a death certificate records both the place of death and the
>> >usual residence at the time of death.  In this case, I would create a
>> >residence event in addition to the death event.
>> >
> You don't have to do this, if you trust the attribute to record a place.
> What do you do with died at Redfern, late of Waterloo, formerly of
> Canowindra? Your events are looking for three good dates where you have
> one (or two, including the date of registration).
>

The problem is that an attribute doesn't actually store a place object,
it can only record text.

For things like the place of birth in a census return, this doesn't
really matter because the birth event stores a place object.

For recording the residence at the time of death, an attribute will not
show up on a place report or in the geography view.  The residence event
would have the same date as the death event in this case.

Nick.


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Re: Reduce importance of the Event description

Nick Hall-6
In reply to this post by Martin Steer-2
On 04/01/14 06:47, Martin Steer wrote:
>> I display event reference attributes in an Overview gramplet, which
>> >shows "Age", "Condition", "Occupation" and "Where Born" attributes.
> That does sound useful.

You can find my "Person Overview" and "Family Overview" gramplets in the
third-party add-ons repository for Gramps v3.4.  They can be added to
the sidebar or bottombar of person and family views.

Nick.


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Re: Reduce importance of the Event description

paul womack
In reply to this post by Martin Steer-2
Martin Steer wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 08:19:22PM -0600, dasunt wrote:
>> On 12/27/2013 12:27 AM, Martin Steer wrote:

>> How would that work when you're tracking changes in occupations over the
>> years,
>> which is very easy information to find for some periods and years.
>
> That is precisely why events don't work. Do you really want, say, 12
> occupation events for some father who is a 'farmer' at every baptism?
> Alternatively, do you really want one occupation event for the farmer,
> with 12 different sources hanging off it?

This type of problem has come up again and
in gramps discussions.

I believe that we (all?) use Gramps for at least 3 separate,
distinct (but not *obviously* distinct) purposes.

1) Storing accurate raw information from records and archives.
2) View/Browsing/Navigating the raw information
     to help form high level "synthesised" facts.
3) Storing high level data.

In the example at hand, I believe that the 12 Occupation
events are merely task (1) and that the "high level" event
(occupation "Farmer" from 1870 to 1920) is an example of task (3).
It's not an either/or deal (IMHO).

If the data is sparse, (1) and (3) may appear identical, adding to the
confusion of a design discussion.

I find usage (2) to be quite important (and poorly supported!), in that I use
Gramps to view and navigate the existing data to see directions in which
I might usefully search, where there are gaps to be filled.

(having written that I might posit a less important 4th usage, which is like usage (2)
only applied to the high level data of (3), effectively "show and tell"
mode)

  BugBear

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Re: Reduce importance of the Event description

Nick Hall-6
In reply to this post by Sebastian Schubert
On 04/01/14 08:49, Sebastian Schubert wrote:

> Am 03.01.2014 22:33, schrieb Nick Hall:
>> >On 29/12/13 20:54, Sebastian Schubert wrote:
>>> >>I submitted the following feature request:
>>> >>
>>> >>http://www.gramps-project.org/bugs/view.php?id=7342
>> >It is easy to re-arrange columns in editors and selectors.  It is also
>> >easy to add an extra participants columns to the editor.  We have to be
>> >careful because there may be some people still generating the contents
>> >of the description column.  However, I am willing to create a patch and
>> >get some feedback on it.
> Thank you. I will gladly try a patch and comment on it. I agree that
> changes need to be carefully done, in particular because using some kind
> of verbose description field is currently recommended:
>
> http://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Gramps_4.0_Wiki_Manual_-_Categories#Events_Category
>
> Thus, I would propose some customization possibilities so people could
> choose their kind of workflow.

I have created patch against gramps34 and attached it to the feature
request.

It changes the default columns in the event view and re-orders the
columns in the event selector.

It also adds a main participants column to the event tabs in the person
and family editors.  I have re-ordered the columns and shortened the
headings, but I'm not sure about this change.

Which reports need looking at?

Nick.


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Re: Reduce importance of the Event description

Jesse Meyer
In reply to this post by Martin Steer-2

On 1/3/2014 5:42 AM, Martin Steer wrote:
> That is precisely why events don't work. Do you really want, say, 12
> occupation events for some father who is a 'farmer' at every baptism?
> Alternatively, do you really want one occupation event for the farmer,
> with 12 different sources hanging off it?
Why wouldn't I?

Depending on the resource, I may either do it as a span of time, or as
separate dates.

If baptisms occurred rather frequently, I'd probably do it as a span.  
So the event
would be "Occupation:  Farmer, c. 1908 - 1912".

If the event is more sporadic, it may be multiple events.  Maybe I have
evidence that
the individual in question moved, and I'm not sure when he took up
farming again.
Or perhaps I don't want to make assumptions - I may have multiple
sources saying
he was a farmer from 1908 to 1912, but no other sources to his
occupation until
something decades later.  In which case I have one span, and then a
single event
decades later.

I probably have events with multiple citations hanging off of them. For
the most
part, it's harmless.  For some cases, it has really helped me figure out
what date
is the most likely.


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Re: Reduce importance of the Event description

Michael Lightfoot-2

On Mon, 6 Jan 2014 10:02:18 PM dasunt wrote:

> On 1/3/2014 5:42 AM, Martin Steer wrote:

> > That is precisely why events don't work. Do you really want, say, 12

> > occupation events for some father who is a 'farmer' at every baptism?

> > Alternatively, do you really want one occupation event for the farmer,

> > with 12 different sources hanging off it?

>

> Why wouldn't I?

>

> Depending on the resource, I may either do it as a span of time, or as

> separate dates.

>

Agreed. I have stayed out of this discussion because frankly I could see the point of it. If various sources over a time period state that Fred Nerk was a farmer and there is no evidence that he wasn't at any time during that period, then I create a single event and attach the various sources - baptisms, census returns, newspaper articles, family yarns or whatever. The main question is the confidence you have that all of the sources are correct and show a continuity.

 

I use this method throughout my database. I do have some where there appears to be a break in the continuity so I then create separate events which may later be amalgamated if I find more evidence.

 

All family history contains educated guesses and assumptions which unless unstated are all part of the story we are telling.

 

--

====

Michael Lightfoot

Canberra, Australia

[hidden email]

====


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Re: Reduce importance of the Event description

Martin Steer-2
In reply to this post by paul womack
On Mon, Jan 06, 2014 at 09:48:09AM +0000, paul womack wrote:

>
>This type of problem has come up again and
>in gramps discussions.
>
>I believe that we (all?) use Gramps for at least 3 separate,
>distinct (but not *obviously* distinct) purposes.
>
>1) Storing accurate raw information from records and archives.
>2) View/Browsing/Navigating the raw information
>     to help form high level "synthesised" facts.
>3) Storing high level data.
>
>In the example at hand, I believe that the 12 Occupation
>events are merely task (1) and that the "high level" event
>(occupation "Farmer" from 1870 to 1920) is an example of task (3).
>It's not an either/or deal (IMHO).

I agree, although I would call the 'data' in (3) a conclusion, or as you
say, a synthesis.

In practice, I think that using one kind of container (an event), for
both data and synthesis is problematic.

>
>If the data is sparse, (1) and (3) may appear identical, adding to the
>confusion of a design discussion.
>
>I find usage (2) to be quite important (and poorly supported!), in that I use
>Gramps to view and navigate the existing data to see directions in which
>I might usefully search, where there are gaps to be filled.
>
>(having written that I might posit a less important 4th usage, which is like usage (2)
>only applied to the high level data of (3), effectively "show and tell"
>mode)

1a) store data

1b) view data

2a) store synthesis

2b) view synthesis

3a) display data

3b) display synthesis



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Re: Reduce importance of the Event description

Sebastian Schubert
In reply to this post by Nick Hall-6
Hi all,

On 06/01/14 23:27, Nick Hall wrote:
>>>> >>I submitted the following feature request:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>http://www.gramps-project.org/bugs/view.php?id=7342
>>> >It is easy to re-arrange columns in editors and selectors.  It is also
>>> >easy to add an extra participants columns to the editor.  We have to be
>>> >careful because there may be some people still generating the contents
>>> >of the description column.  However, I am willing to create a patch and
>>> >get some feedback on it.

> I have created patch against gramps34 and attached it to the feature
> request.

I ported the patch to gramps 4.0 (without any proper knowledge of python
so this will eat your children (in the database)). For testing purposes,
there are some openSUSE packages based on gramps 4.0.3 which include
that patch:

http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/home:/sebschub:/gramps:/patched/

> It changes the default columns in the event view and re-orders the
> columns in the event selector.
>
> It also adds a main participants column to the event tabs in the person
> and family editors.  I have re-ordered the columns and shortened the
> headings, but I'm not sure about this change.
>
> Which reports need looking at?

From my point of view, only the narrative web site report needs to be
updated, e.g. a main participants column needs to be added to a person's
page and to an event page.

Cheers
Sebastian


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Re: Reduce importance of the Event description

Nick Hall-6
On 12/02/14 07:44, Sebastian Schubert wrote:
>> I have created patch against gramps34 and attached it to the feature
>> >request.
> I ported the patch to gramps 4.0 (without any proper knowledge of python
> so this will eat your children (in the database)). For testing purposes,
> there are some openSUSE packages based on gramps 4.0.3 which include
> that patch:
>
> http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/home:/sebschub:/gramps:/patched/
>

Thanks for creating these packages.

I was not comfortable committing these changes, so I have raised the
subject on the develop list.

I'll also have a look at the narrative web report for you.


Nick.


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